Topic: Is Steven Gerrard "Still" Good For Liverpool?

[Andy @ Allerton]

I think Gerrard is quite poor defensively, mostly because he just doesn't put his mind to it and is a bit lazy at times, but it's not like the competition for 2 of the 3 positions in midfield is great. Lucas is brilliant of course, but Adam, Henderson and Shelvey - good from a defensive point of view?

Adam is frankly awful, has all of Gerrard's weaknesses there, is slower, doesn't read the game as well, doesn't work as hard. Henderson is willing to learn, has great stamina and works hard, but doesn't know how to position himself very well, is hesitant at times trying to win the ball, doesn't get close enough when pressing, doesn't cut off angles, and is generally a bit lost when we don't have possession. He has time on his side though, and his movement when we have the ball is good, so you imagine he'll learn. Shelvey is playing as an attacking midfielder, said himself (if I'm not wrong) that he hates the defensive side of the game, but to be honest, I don't know how good he is. I haven't seen him enough, but I doubt he'll become famous for his defensive rather than attacking play. Spearing works hard, can harass opponents well, but is weak in the tackle and as can be seen when Lucas isn't behind him to cover, easy to get past. His work rate makes him better than Gerrard from a defensive point though, I'd definitely say, but he's far from great.

Like I said a few pages back, all of Gerrard's faults (and he obviously has some) are very often exaggerated trying to make a point, and many disregards the lack of defensive strength we have in general without Lucas. It's not only Gerrard that is responsible when teams walk through us, as they've done since Lucas got injured (if you don't believe me, read the opinions back in December on the partnership of Henderson-Adam, or Spearing-Adam). Maybe he doesn't do enough to stop it, but it gets ridiculous when people claim he can't even play in a midfield 3 anymore, not even as the most attacking player.

Yet, the current champions play a 38-39 year old Giggs in a midfield two pretty often. Fair enough, try to convince me I'm wrong about Henderson, Adam and Shelvey, say that they are better than Gerrard, but Giggs? He's awful off the ball, but then so is most central midfields in the league right now, so they get away with it. We, on the other hand, must use Gerrard as a striker.

And that's all fair enough mate - so I think we both agree the answer is move him out of a position where he has to defend at all.

But I disagree that he's 'better defensively' at all - I agree with what you say that he *could be* better - but the fact is that at present he chooses not to bother with it. Given the positions he's been playing, we can't really get away with that - which is why the defence gets a lot of unneeded pressure.

[Roger Federer]

But I disagree that he's 'better defensively' at all - I agree with what you say that he *could be* better - but the fact is that at present he chooses not to bother with it. Given the positions he's been playing, we can't really get away with that - which is why the defence gets a lot of unneeded pressure.

He isn't better than Spearing right now, but atleast not worse than the others. They are all equally responsible for teams getting through our midfield with ease, and leaving Gerrard on the bench or playing him up front wont stop it. Adam-Shelvey-Henderson would be walked all over too, yet many pretend it's down to Gerrard, and Gerrard only. They all desperately need Lucas - Spearing does as well - and we need another DM in the squad even when Lucas is back.

Sure, discuss where he's at his best, and what faults he's got, how we should use him when he's 32 years of age and injury prone, but don't pretend we'd have a solid midfield with Adam-Spearing, because it well wouldn't be.

[Andy @ Allerton]

He isn't better than Spearing right now, but atleast not worse than the others. They are all equally responsible for teams getting through our midfield with ease, and leaving Gerrard on the bench or playing him up front wont stop it. Adam-Shelvey-Henderson would be walked all over too, yet many pretend it's down to Gerrard, and Gerrard only. They all desperately need Lucas - Spearing does as well - and we need another DM in the squad even when Lucas is back.

Sure, discuss where he's at his best, and what faults he's got, how we should use him when he's 32 years of age and injury prone, but don't pretend we'd have a solid midfield with Adam-Spearing, because it well wouldn't be.

I personally would put Henderson in there with Spearing slightly behind him and tell them both to hold. Lucas is good enough to do the covering of two men when required and I think one day Spearing will get there too. But Lucas can cope with Gerrard/Adam in the middle - Spearing struggles - so someone more level headed like Henderson with a restricted role would help with the static displacement of the opposition. Obviously this puts more pressure on the wide men to deliver - but they need to also hold their positions wide to keep the pressure off the centre.

[The Grinch]

When is the "Is Lionel Messi good for Barcelona" thread getting created?

Probably when he is around Gerrard, Ronaldinho and Maxi's age and no longer consistently influencing games the way he used to.

[krizzobizzle]

I changed the thread title since some people are really upset by it.

Like i said it was the title of the article. Read my last post on page 9.

[Hank Scorpio]

Just thought I would put this in here http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=291996.msg10136507#msg10136507

That's a link to Roy's post where has posted some pages from Graham Hunter's book on Barcelona/Guardiola, I believe.

The 3rd page on that post has some quotes from Inga (one of the people responsible for hiring Guardiola).  He says how he didn't want Guardiola to takeover mid-season so that he could start with 'a clean slate' and  'without Ronaldinho & Deco'.  Consider how influential those players were to Barcelona during the mid 00's and they won everything for them.  Yet future decisions were not influenced by past success.  Those players had their time but now were not perhaps part of the Barcelona future.  I'd say it's a dangerous game to play when you cling on to the past and reward and re-reward past achievements over and over again.

I think we may well have fallen into this trap or are certainly hovering over the edge.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Just thought I would put this in here http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=291996.msg10136507#msg10136507

That's a link to Roy's post where has posted some pages from Graham Hunter's book on Barcelona/Guardiola, I believe.

The 3rd page on that post has some quotes from Inga (one of the people responsible for hiring Guardiola).  He says how he didn't want Guardiola to takeover mid-season so that he could start with 'a clean slate' and  'without Ronaldinho & Deco'.  Consider how influential those players were to Barcelona during the mid 00's and they won everything for them.  Yet future decisions were not influenced by past success.  Those players had their time but now were not perhaps part of the Barcelona future.  I'd say it's a dangerous game to play when you cling on to the past and reward and re-reward past achievements over and over again.

I think we may well have fallen into this trap or are certainly hovering over the edge.

Yep. Look at Manchester United - Bryan Robson. He went them BOOM!

[Wirral1]

When is the "Is Lionel Messi good for Barcelona" thread getting created?

When Barcelona look like finishing 8th in the spanish league?

[Coolie High]

Just thought I would put this in here http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=291996.msg10136507#msg10136507

That's a link to Roy's post where has posted some pages from Graham Hunter's book on Barcelona/Guardiola, I believe.

The 3rd page on that post has some quotes from Inga (one of the people responsible for hiring Guardiola).  He says how he didn't want Guardiola to takeover mid-season so that he could start with 'a clean slate' and  'without Ronaldinho & Deco'.  Consider how influential those players were to Barcelona during the mid 00's and they won everything for them.  Yet future decisions were not influenced by past success.  Those players had their time but now were not perhaps part of the Barcelona future.  I'd say it's a dangerous game to play when you cling on to the past and reward and re-reward past achievements over and over again.

I think we may well have fallen into this trap or are certainly hovering over the edge.

He won't do the same to Xavi and Puyol though.

[Coolie High]

Yep. Look at Manchester United - Bryan Robson. He went them BOOM!

What does Robson have to do with it, I thought Mike Riley and the FA were more to do with their early success.

[budew]

He is still one of our best players. sadly, kenny persists in playing him in central midfield, and it's not working out for him/us.

[Billman]

Slight diversion here but listening to Tony Cascarino on newstalk in Ireland, he talks a lot of nonsense admittedly but told a story that he was asked to write an article about Gerrard and Lampard some years back, did it and praised them both but ultimately gave Gerrard 9.5/10 and Lampard 9/10. Paper went out and that night he got a call from Lampard: "I read your article today and I didn't like it." Cascarino then claimed that Lampard started "ranting and raving" at him saying that as an ex-Chelsea player he shoulda been fighting his corner, and that in response he said: "Well he's better than you. What do you expect me to do - lie?" Apparently some time after that Cascarino went to the Chelsea training ground to interview a player and was not allowed in.

[andspecks]

Slight diversion here but listening to Tony Cascarino on newstalk in Ireland, he talks a lot of nonsense admittedly but told a story that he was asked to write an article about Gerrard and Lampard some years back, did it and praised them both but ultimately gave Gerrard 9.5/10 and Lampard 9/10. Paper went out and that night he got a call from Lampard: "I read your article today and I didn't like it." Cascarino then claimed that Lampard started "ranting and raving" at him saying that as an ex-Chelsea player he shoulda been fighting his corner, and that in response he said: "Well he's better than you. What do you expect me to do - lie?" Apparently some time after that Cascarino went to the Chelsea training ground to interview a player and was not allowed in.

Hah, what a twat Lampard is.

[Billman]

Hah, what a twat Lampard is.

He he...yeah obsessed....since I wrote the message Cascarino was asked about an urban legend that during the 1990s while away on Ireland duty someone put a shit under David O'Leary's bed. Cascarino had been questioned about it by the same people in a previous interview and dodged the question, they asked him again this time - this time it was a live broadcast in a pub full of people - if it was true and who was the culprit and he said, very suggestively, "Have you spoken to John Aldridge?"

[Hank Scorpio]

He won't do the same to Xavi and Puyol though.

Puyol already plays a squad role, playing across the back four or as the left or right centre half when Barcelona play that formation with the sweeper.

Xavi has made less and less league appearances over the last 3 years despite being one of the top midfielders in Europe.  Injuries and age mean that he is not likely to be the same player for much longer, which is why the likes of Thiago are playing an increasing role.

It's not about the players, but more so that a succession plan is in place.  No man automatically demands a first team spot.  It means that each player has to fit into the team and more importantly raise their game.  It's probably why Messi has gone from scoring an extraordinary amounts of goals to an even more extraordinary amount.  There is no rest, no reputation.

It's also a good message to send to young players.  Work hard enough and you are in.  Your peers are getting chances so you have a chance.  All the time the benchmark, the level is being raised.  What do we currently have?  Young players with potential sitting on the bench, while 34 year olds refuse to give up the throne.

[Roger Federer]

Xavi has made less and less league appearances over the last 3 years despite being one of the top midfielders in Europe.

Since Guardiola took over, Xavi's played 54, 53, and 50 games a season (the last after a long World Cup which meant he got back to pre-season late). He's on 44 right now, so will probably reach 50 again. Not disagreeing with the points you make, but I'm a bore, so I just wanted to point out that even at 32, Xavi plays pretty much every game.

[geoffstrong]

It is not the end of Stevie but it is the beginning of the end of Stevie and the club would be naive and stupid not to plan for a future team without him one day! All legends go eventually and are hopefully replaced with another one.

[steveeastend]

Hah, what a twat Lampard is.

And you think that Gerrard or Carra would have reacted any different?

[sinnermichael]

he blatantly should be playing on the right for the remainder of the season. not that it will happen.

[blert596]

Maybe its the beginning of the end, maybe not.

But, by god, I'd love to see the lad have one last season where he recaptures everything that made him "Stevie G". One last season where everyone steps up to the plate and we give it a really good go.

I've admired Stevie for years, I've had my whinges about him too. But I'd give anything to see the lad get his hands on a League trophy for us. If there's a midfielder at a club who deserves it more then I cant think of him.

He's been a force of nature for us over a decade now. Fair play.

[Kashinoda]

Are Liverpool 'supporters' 'still' good for Liverpool?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

He won't do the same to Xavi and Puyol though.

He wouldn't need to. They're both highly intelligent players, as good as they've ever been with no long term decline via constant injury. Xavi is like Scholes, will go on for years if needs be. I swear Puyol's actually better than he ever has been, immense when I've watched them this season.

Sadly, Gerrard would have to be classed as more of a Deco/Ronaldinho player in that it's not about tempo or intelligence, his game, it's about direct play going forward. Not comparing him with them in style particularly, but there's a world of difference in your comparison IMO.

[andspecks]

And you think that Gerrard or Carra would have reacted any different?

Damn right I do. Can't say about Carragher but I don't for a second believe that Gerrard would ever call up a journalist and bitch about him saying Lampard is a better player. When has he ever displayed an attitude like that? FFS. Who needs enemies.

[1021]

Having this conversation isn't disrespectful or disparaging to Steven Gerrard. It's the sort of conversation most Clubs and most supporters would have about a 32 year old midfielder who no longer performs in the fashion he was once famed for.

His legacy cannot be disputed, he's a European Cup winner, he's been a phenomenal footballer, and when he hangs up his boots he will be right up there with the likes of Billy Liddell, Roger Hunt, Kenny Dalglish, and John Barnes as an all time Liverpool great. He's the iconic figure of Liverpool in the 21st century thus far and the previous decade 00-10 will be the one people associate with him.

However, that is sadly in the past. Due to injuries and father time he isn't the same force he once was. Playing as much football as he has from the age of 20, it would be impossible for him to have, especially considering his importance to Liverpool has seen him rushed back to first team action before his body was ready. But it is not to say he is a spent force, he's just not as influential, or as good as he once was. He still has that burst of magic in him (evidenced against Napoli and Everton) he will still score goals and win games for Liverpool. But he cannot be relied on, either for fitness or for monstrous performances.

Common sense would suggest we try to make the most of the genius he has left, make sure he only plays when fully fit, make sure he plays up the park where he will have an influence on proceedings, save him for certain matches, rest him for others. Build a squad that can fight and challenge without him, so that we don't grind to a halt in his absence (don't go loaning out players because they play in Gerrard's position) and that is enhanced in his presence.

[Red Wanderer]

What is also worth bearing in mind, mate, is we were 3-0 down in Istanbul for many reasons. Same as we were behind in the cup final. Point being the game wasn't over and their conclusions were largely, not all, because of Gerrard. Now, as then, we should not be so quick to give up the ghost.

Forgive me if I ignore your comparisons to United and Chelsea as they are unfair and superfluous to the thread.

Oh I don't disagree at all that Stevie was vital in both comebacks. Absolutely crucial, and I don't think any other player could have driven us on in the way he did second half in Istanbul, both creatively and then keeping Serginho quiet later on.  But I was highlighting that he was only able to do that by having Alonso and Hamann, and then Sissoko in 2006, to protect us.  And I do thing his inability to get close to Kaka was crucial in the second and third goals we conceded.

My point is only that I think he should be allowed to influence the game further up the pitch, rather than dulling his attacking prowess by playing him in central midfield, which also has the knock-on effect of leaving us defensively weak in central areas, by asking him to do a job that I don't believe he can do.

[kcbworth]

Long version of Steven Gerrard Press conference from today

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/y6ScxkX5mY8" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/y6ScxkX5mY8</a>

Actually really enjoyed this. Interesting that he called out himself, Carra, Reina, and Kuyt as the senior players in the squad.

[Discipline]

Actually really enjoyed this. Interesting that he called out himself, Carra, Reina, and Kuyt as the senior players in the squad.

In what context? That's actually surprising Agger and Lucas wasn't aded to that list.

[bornandbRED]

In what context? That's actually surprising Agger and Lucas wasn't aded to that list.

He said the older lads, not senior players.

[Red Reign]

Is Steven Gerrard still good for this club? The pondering of this question is a practice in futility.

Let's assume for arguments sake that present day Gerrard is 70% of the player he once was. Then I ask, what is 70% of one of the greatest midfielders to ever grace English football? What is 70% of the heart of a football club? What is 70% of absolute class? 70% of Steven Gerrard is still a better option than any we have or could have.

Implying that that Gerrard is the reason we have won less is a logical fallacy. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Do not ignore the fact that his arrival was followed by Leiva's season-ending injury and an 8 match ban by Luis Suarez. Throw statistics out the window and analyze the game before you. Steven Gerrard in his "old" age is still a good player. He makes things happen. Good players improve teams. Is it possible he is being used incorrectly? Very possible but very remediable.

Our troubles of late cannot be attributed to any one player but if you insist on picking one out then you're looking too far down the list.

[lionel_messias]

Goal scoring is about taking responsibility. In a squad of Adam, Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Spearing and Lucas, to suggest Gerrard isn't a huge asset is madness.

He just needs better players behind him like the peak Alonso days. Play him like Rafa did. He should be one of the '3' behind a central striker imo and he should also be rested frequently enough to protect his fitness and give serious gametime to Jonjo Shelvey and even Suso (when he is ready).

[kcbworth]

Goal scoring is about taking responsibility. In a squad of Adam, Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Spearing and Lucas, to suggest Gerrard isn't a huge asset is madness.

He just needs better players behind him like the peak Alonso days. Play him like Rafa did. He should be one of the '3' behind a central striker imo and he should also be rested frequently enough to protect his fitness and give serious gametime to Jonjo Shelvey and even Suso (when he is ready).

Well said.

[Andy @ Allerton]

What does Robson have to do with it, I thought Mike Riley and the FA were more to do with their early success.

You thought wrong then you idiot.

They didn't get any decisions at the start before Ferguson was established. I'd say the last 10 years or so they have been getting very favourable decisions and the last 5 years or so it's got ridiculous.

[Alf]

Someone said to me the other day that the stats prove we are better without Gerrard these days, it was a great hattrick by the stats in the last derby.

[Hank Scorpio]

Since Guardiola took over, Xavi's played 54, 53, and 50 games a season (the last after a long World Cup which meant he got back to pre-season late). He's on 44 right now, so will probably reach 50 again. Not disagreeing with the points you make, but I'm a bore, so I just wanted to point out that even at 32, Xavi plays pretty much every game.

He should play every game because he is still exceptional.  But his role is being reduced and others are being integrated into the first team.  I don't watch Barcelona on a regular basis or anything but because Sky basically show every game I get to watch more than I probably should.  I've seen that over the last 18 months Xavi has sometimes been substituted after 65/70 minutes.  Sometimes he's on the bench.  Thiago and Fabregas are taking his minutes.  This is happening mainly due to injuries and I believe it is Xavi's knee that is the problem.  But the point is that even with a player who is that good, there is no overbearing reliance on him.  Yes, right now you are better with Xavi, but soon that won't be the case and there are clear signs that this process is being managed.

Xavi himself is a product of this approach because ironically it took Guardiola leaving for Xavi to fully establish himself.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Someone said to me the other day that the stats prove we are better without Gerrard these days, it was a great hattrick by the stats in the last derby.

As everyone says even now in his heydey of lacklustre performances he can still pull out a truly amazing World Class performance that leaves people gasping.

[Hank Scorpio]

As everyone says even now in his heydey of lacklustre performances he can still pull out a truly amazing World Class performance that leaves people gasping.

The defensive stance that some of the support take with re: Gerrard tells you all you need to know about our approach.

[jaffod]

When Barcelona look like finishing 8th in the spanish league?

Just looked at the league table and I couldn't see Gerrard FC anywhere.

[geoffstrong]

Just looked at the league table and I couldn't see Gerrard FC anywhere.

This is a problem they cannot see beyond the man and forget we have a team and club's future to think of, hell I would want the old Gerrard back but I feel that Stevie  now a great memory, if Stevie remains in the team his style of play will need to alter especially the need for him to bring others into the game a lot more and let them be the legs while he orchestrates play, if he can adapt to that great if not then whoever the manager is has a tricky problem to deal with!
Also given his age and recent injury record we need to look at the eventuality of a team without Gerrard this is logical progression not heresay!
The head will need to rule our hearts.

Time waits for no man

[john_mac]

In a sea of shite, possibly the most ridiculous title to any thread that I've seen.

Liverpool fans? errrrrrr

[Gravy]

You thought wrong then you idiot.

They didn't get any decisions at the start before Ferguson was established. I'd say the last 10 years or so they have been getting very favourable decisions and the last 5 years or so it's got ridiculous.

Andy I think it's time you got to a shrink mate. It's become an obsession and it's not healthy ;-)