Author Topic: Is Steven Gerrard "Still" Good For Liverpool?  (Read 33517 times)

Offline krizzobizzle

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Is Steven Gerrard "Still" Good For Liverpool?
« on: April 11, 2012, 02:21:49 AM »
Interesting piece by The Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/apr/10/the-question-steven-gerrard-liverpool

Mods feel free to move if inappropriate

This isnt intended to be a Gerrard bashing thread but the article does raise some interesting stats. My dad earlier also mentioned that our good run last season came without him in the team.

I personally think that he's still a fantastic player, but I do have reservations with him when we don't have the ball. I also think he's best much further up the pitch in games like Everton a couple of weeks back.

I do agree on certain points that there seems to be a "pass the buck" mentality with other players when he's on the pitch, almost expecting him to do something special.

I think in some games it would be useful, such as Newcastle, where he comes off the bench for 35 minutes or so. He seems to get a lot more joy when he's coming on in the tail end of games and is fresh.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 01:11:44 PM by krizzobizzle »
77'     78'     81'     84'     05'

Offline Zaffarious

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 02:27:59 AM »
didnt have lucas when stevie came back. Lucas is more important to the way we play and set up than stevie is now. Dont believe what the papers tell you, we lost our best / most consistant player for the full season. some could argue suarez is the better player, but he isnt as consistant.

Offline Nin

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 02:36:24 AM »
I love Gerrard, but Lucas is more important to us these days. Gerrard can still play an important role if we use him correctly, i.e further up the pitch.

Online YoungKopite

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 02:37:48 AM »
Gerrard is the best.

Offline tdogssc

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 02:38:39 AM »
I think in some games it would be useful, such as Newcastle, where he comes off the bench for 35 minutes or so. He seems to get a lot more joy when he's coming on in the tail end of games and is fresh.
Won't have a choice before too long. He's our heartbeat, but you can't outrun age sadly.

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 02:39:03 AM »
Depends on the weather and the mood of RAWKites.

Offline tdogssc

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 02:39:47 AM »
Depends on the weather and the mood of RAWKites.
hehe, so true  :-[

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 03:09:40 AM »
Yes.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 03:29:47 AM »
I like this article, because it says what I've been thinking. to be honest I would like to see the same stats over the past 3 seasons (with and without Gerrard in the team, impact on other players, etc)

Offline RedRabbit

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 03:41:22 AM »
With a player like Lucas or Didi or Mascherano or Alonso in the side Stevie can be awesome on his day. And still can even with ageing legs. But give him a role that includes defensive responsibilities at the expense of attacking freedom and he is a severely diminished player.

To me it's the loss of Lucas that has hurt us, and and even more so Gerrard, the most. He's still a fabulous player, but he does need help to allow him to be that player. Adam, Henderson, Jay or Shelvey aren't that player. 

Offline Samee

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 03:42:45 AM »
Gerrard would be 'good' for any team in the league. Guarantee if he became available City, United, Chelsea, Spurs etc would be there ready to bite our hands off.

He needs more quality players around him because when he's one of a few threats (other being Suarez) the entire team expects him to do everything and he ends up trying to force things.

No one was questioning Stevie when he was tearing apart Everton a few weeks ago. Also as recently as Villa, he was involved in absolutely everything positive the team did.

RAWK takes Gerrard for granted BIG time.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 03:44:16 AM by Samee »
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Offline Wesley Pipes

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 03:55:41 AM »
Gerrard in an Advanced position is worth his weight in Gold. 10/10

Gerrard at CM is a waste of a great attacker and throws the teams balance well off. 5/10

Offline vishy01234

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 04:27:18 AM »
Samee and Wesley are both spot on.
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Offline rushie9

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 04:42:36 AM »
Fr SG ability, sure it help us in the game, but whenever now he start, it mentally tense up many other players, we see lucas play better without him, perhpas same for Henderson and adam, i remember rafa mentioned he reckon SG play better on the right, but somehow SG doesn't seems enjoy RM, so he(still) like to take up all role onto his shoulder. ..it comes to me now a bit like carra along side the poor form martin we saw...
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Offline keyo

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 05:45:16 AM »
I like this article, because it says what I've been thinking. to be honest I would like to see the same stats over the past 3 seasons (with and without Gerrard in the team, impact on other players, etc)

impact on other players seems odd to me.....other players need to step up, and if they don't that is there is issue, not gerrard's or anyone else.....where it is his play that is causing the problem, there can be debate, but anyone overshadowed by another player and inhibited by them needs to step up their game, we do not want to be also rans, we want to compete with the best, and that requires top players and players who can play with top players
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Offline Discipline

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 05:50:27 AM »
What... the.... fuck.... did..... I..... just.... read....  ??? ???
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Offline fosspowered

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 05:57:15 AM »
Quote
That said, the injury to Lucas Leiva who, remarkably, has still made more tackles than anybody else in the Liverpool squad this season despite having been injured since November, partly accounts for that fall-off and has clearly been a significant factor in Liverpool's stumble.
Tells you something doesn't this?

Gerrard should only play off the striker or wide on the right. Nowhere else.

Offline decosabute

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 07:23:35 AM »
I'm pretty angry after seeing that article (despite it being excellent) because I wrote something very similar last week and pitched it to the Guardian, receiving absolutely no reply. Now a week later basically the same thing turns up, but written by one of their established contributors...bit frustrating.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 07:41:53 AM »
4.5 hours after a win, is that a record for a "Are we a better team without Steven Gerrard?" Thread?
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Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 07:44:51 AM »
The same press will be creaming their shorts about Gerrard, when he plays for London X1 in the summer Euro's.
FFS he scored a hat-trick not so long ago and was unplayable.
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 08:05:03 AM »
Interesting stats? Just can't agree with that. I don't know much about statistics, but if there one thing I do know, it is that correlation does not imply causation (as Wilson claims it does). If you could prove that Henderson can't tackle because Gerrard happens to be on the pitch, then that certainly would be quite interesting, but as there is no proof whatsoever of that, it's pointless. Stats, in relation to football and individual performances, almost always are. They disregard the other 21 players on the pitch, or any number of factors you could come up with that influence a game.

Offline killer_heels

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 08:07:27 AM »
What a stupid question.

Offline decosabute

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 08:07:39 AM »
For anybody interested in seeing what I had written to the Guardian a full week before Jonathan Wilson's piece came out, here it is:



8 Facts Steven Gerrard Would Rather Not Hear


If you’re a fan of Steven Gerrard, or someone who believes he should play in the centre of England’s midfield at Euro 2012 this Summer, you may want to look away now. While the Liverpool skipper’s talent and contribution over the years cannot be questioned, his current form and influence suggest there’s a case to be made for club and country planning a future without him...

•   First there’s the simple, natural truth – Steven Gerrard will celebrate his 32nd birthday next month. Michel Platini retired as soon as he turned the same age. Other all-time greats like Cantona and Van Basten had already given up the game by this point in their lives. Of course in this era of England’s top team employing a 37 year-old midfield general, 32 is possibly not the pensionable age it once was. Still, for someone whose game has so often depended on pace and dynamism, the twilight years of his career will surely mean a dwindling of these key attributes.

•   And with the age comes injuries. A lot of them. Plagued by back problems in his younger days, lately Gerrard’s issues have been mainly with his troublesome groin, which caused him to go under the knife again last year. After only a couple of games back, an infection in his ankle served to delay his return by another few months. Only making 24 appearances in all competitions last season was worrying, and it was the first time he had failed to make more than 30 since his breakthrough in 1999. He’s on course to beat that number this term, but the spectre of another trip to the treatment table looms constantly.

•   While Kenny Dalglish (and possibly the player himself) seems to believe that Gerrard’s best position is in the centre of midfield, the numbers appear to refute this. Rafa Benitez was the manager with whom Gerrard had the most success in terms of team competitiveness and personal statistics. However, Benitez’ ability to bring the best out of the player came from a realisation that the centre of the pitch was not necessarily the best place for him to be. As this article by Jonathan Wilson (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jonathan_wilson/09/06/gerrard.position/index.html) pointed out, the manager realised some way through his first season (the decisive game possibly being a Gerrard-less, tactically astute away draw against Juventus) that while his skipper had superb pace and finishing ability, not to mention the intermittent ability to hit a great pass, he was often wasteful in possession and tactically lacking. It was thus deduced that he was more useful to him away from the central midfield positions. In the Summer, Benitez moved quickly to sign a midfield destroyer in Momo Sissoko to sit alongside Xabi Alonso and a year and a half later upgraded him to Javier Mascherano. With Alonso entrenched as Liverpool’s deep playmaker, Benitez thus shifted Gerrard either to the right hand side or in a free role behind the striker, turning him into more of a weapon and leaving him unhindered by such responsibilities as defending and dictating play. Research of Liverpool’s line-ups and formations for the four years from the Summer of 2005 until Alonso was sold to Real Madrid bear this out: During these four seasons, Gerrard played as part of a central midfield pair in only 72 out of 197 appearances. Further investigation reveals that nearly half of these appearances in the centre could be seen as a direct result of extended injuries to other players (Sissoko in 06/07 and Alonso in 07/08).

•   As well as giving him the European Cup, FA Cup, and 2006 PFA Player of the Year Award, this period also bore witness to Gerrard’s greatest goal-scoring feats. He netted a total of 77 in all competitions and finished with more than 20 in three of the four years, numbers a prolific striker – something that Liverpool could do with at the moment – would be proud of. Contrast this with his total of 28 goals over the past three seasons. Not a terrible total by any stretch, but aside from his brilliant hat-trick against Everton in March, it’s worth pointing out he’s only scored 10 league goals from open play since August 2009.

•   Although he scored a respectable 9 goals in 33 league appearances in Liverpool’s disappointing 09/10 campaign, a point of note is that two of the five games Gerrard was absent for that season were Liverpool’s only two wins against top four opposition  – home victories against Man Utd and Spurs.

•   Taking this further, one can look at the effect his absence has on results over the past two league campaigns. Although some feel his movement into a deeper role – playing more often as part of a midfield two – is a necessary step for both him and the club to take in his advancing years, the numbers seem to indicate that Liverpool are in fact a weaker team when he plays. Last season, Liverpool earned an average of 1.33 points per game whenever Gerrard started in the league. By contrast they earned 1.66 points on average when Gerrard was absent. While of course a purely theoretical measurement, that difference of 0.33 points per game, when extrapolated over an entire season, would mean a difference of between 12 and 13 points. Let’s not forget that Liverpool’s impressive run of results in the second half of last season were achieved largely without Gerrard after his groin injury.

•   The contrast is even more glaring this season, albeit from a smaller sample size. The same injury that caused Gerrard to miss much of the second half of 2010/2011 has meant he has been absent for most of Liverpool’s decent opening half of this season. Without him in the starting line-up, Liverpool have picked up a respectable 1.69 points per game on average. When he has started, this drops to a paltry 0.7 points per game. Over a whole season, the difference in the two figures would yield 37-38 points more. While Liverpool’s second half struggles can in part be attributed to the destabilising effect of Lucas Leiva’s knee injury in November, the downturn in performances and results since the captain’s return is stark.

•   To finish, here’s a stat from Liverpool’s insipid defeat to Newcastle that perhaps won’t surprise Gerrard’s detractors: Out of nine long balls attempted, he only found teammates with two of them.

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 08:09:26 AM »
Off the striker - still capable

CM in a 3 - hrmmm

CM in a 2 - just no

Still has a lot to offer, but as I keep saying should be used as an impact sub a la Newcastle at Anfield or in the odd game here and there.
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Offline SWRC

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 08:17:36 AM »
Tells me more about the team around him if we cnt win with him in the team, Stevie is still a class act and our captain. Nothing more to say really.
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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 08:30:22 AM »
Players play more freely with more responsebility without him, take charge etc

however he still is one of the best just behind the striker.
Quote from: Fordy on July 20, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Anything more that 6m for Joe Allen and we have been ripped off.

Loads of Joe allens out there.

I would like to see him stay at Swansea myself and see if he can have another decent season. He is a championship player - players like a championship player.

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2012, 08:38:46 AM »
I think it all comes down to where you play him.  Gerrard is most effective in the hole or on the right wing.  Too often has he been played in central midfield this season.  But you could argue that this is down to injuries to key players.

Offline wonderboy

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 08:40:10 AM »
Would have him anywhere on the pitch with our current squad.

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 08:41:00 AM »
We play as a team when he's not there.

We play much less as a team when he is there.
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 08:41:48 AM »
the long and the short of it is, gerrard can still be a massive asset for liverpool just not in the middle of the park.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2012, 08:42:07 AM »
I think Gerrard with defensive responsibility has been a bit of a liability since he's come back from his injury unfortunately. However, take all tracking back responsibility away and he would still be good. Perhaps he could play as an out-and-out striker while he is regaining his fitness?

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2012, 08:43:30 AM »
Not in centre midfield. Unfortunately, he thinks that's his best position.

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2012, 08:44:07 AM »
I think Gerrard with defensive responsibility has been a bit of a liability since he's come back from his injury unfortunately. However, take all tracking back responsibility away and he would still be good. Perhaps he could play as an out-and-out striker while he is regaining his fitness?

Rafa made a very good point when he said, the older gerrard gets, the futher up the pitch he should play. just behind the striker is perfect for him.
Quote from: Fordy on July 20, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Anything more that 6m for Joe Allen and we have been ripped off.

Loads of Joe allens out there.

I would like to see him stay at Swansea myself and see if he can have another decent season. He is a championship player - players like a championship player.

Offline Wingman

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2012, 08:50:22 AM »
When fit, I'd like to see Henderson and Lucas paired up in CM next season. But to say Gerrard should be used only as an impact sub is idiotic. I'd like to see him on the right or anywhere in the 3 of a 4-2-3-1.

Offline hide5seek

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2012, 08:52:02 AM »
Play him in the right place as Rafa did and he's worlds best player after Messi. Play him where he likes to play and he's a bloody good player but half the player he could be.

Offline richiedouglas

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2012, 09:06:01 AM »
I thought Shelvey (last night) played as Gerrard should have been since he's come back. He was dynamic and forceful and reminded me of a 2004 Gerrard.

I think Gerrard's comeback has also coincided with Agger being out. We always compare points per game when Lucas is out, but our dip in form coincides directly with Agger's injury.

Offline JJ Red

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2012, 09:10:33 AM »
In the right system and in the right position of course he is good for Liverpool but i don't necessarily think that CM is that position unless we are playing a midfield 3.

A 3 man midfield with Lucas and Henderson (or hopefully a new signing in the summer) and he will be fine.

I also think though that Rafa had the right idea in 2006 playing him in the advanced right position. We've seen recently that he can be very effective at getting quality balls into the box.

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2012, 09:19:08 AM »
Fact is when Gerrard has played, more often than not, it's been the wrong position or alongside the wrong personel, two men midfield with Charlie Adam at times or playing a deep playmaking role, he can play it to a certain extent but not that well.

That's not because it's solely down to Gerrard though, many factors during a match, missing players etc.

Get Gerrard just behind the forward, hard working disciplined players behind him ( like Lucas) and I'm sure we will see the best of him once more.


I understand that Lucas is absent and little jay is doing all he can, but jay isn't a holding midfielder, not for me anyway. He's a central midfielder who will bite your ankles, put you under pressure.


This...

                Lucas   Henderson (Adam, spearing, Shelvey)

                     Gerrard

Is surely better than....


                   Lucas.     Gerrard
       
         
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 09:23:06 AM by Upinsmoke »
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Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2012, 09:21:04 AM »
Gerrard in an Advanced position is worth his weight in Gold. 10/10

Gerrard at CM is a waste of a great attacker and throws the teams balance well off. 5/10

In a nutshell for me.
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Is Steven Gerrard Good For Liverpool?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2012, 09:23:19 AM »
A lad at work sent me a link to this article yesterday, to which I responded:

This bit is the biggest cause of our league form nosediving:

That said, the injury to Lucas Leiva who, remarkably, has still made more tackles than anybody else in the Liverpool squad this season despite having been injured since November, partly accounts for that fall-off and has clearly been a significant factor in Liverpool's stumble.

I’d add Agger to that list as well. The two of them are key in our system and both have been absent for large spells without adequate cover.

As for Gerrard, the biggest problem is he wants to play central midfield (which he’s stated publically many times) but he doesn’t have the discipline or tactical awareness to play there. His best position is behind a front man, where he doesn’t have that defensive responsibility and can simply concentrate on doing what he does best and attack. That’s shown in the best season he’s had for us when he played in the hole behind Torres and was outstanding. Further to that, his second best season – and his best in terms of goal and assist return – was out on the right hand side, where again, he was outstanding. Ask most Liverpool fans and they’ll tell you the same – he’s not a great central midfielder, but he’s an outstanding attacking midfielder and arguably, an outstanding right sided attacker as well – both positions which crucially don’t require the same level of discipline and awareness. Yet if you listen to the so-called ‘experts’ in the media they’ll have you believe that it’s criminal to not play him as a stereotypical central midfielder, which was seen in the constant criticism of Rafa (who was all too aware of where Gerrard is best) when he was manager for playing Gerrard on the right hand side.

Strangely, at the weekend against Villa Gerrard started centrally and we were pretty woeful for the first 45. Gerrard moved to the right hand side for most of the second half and, what would you know, he was outstanding. Weird.
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