Topic: The Downing Enigma

[jckliew]

He's been like that since his Boro days.... most of the English 'dribblers' can't dribbler beyond a straight line, it's like kick and rush... only one I can remember memerizing me with his runs was our good old Macca....

The one who stands out with his mesmerising runs and control of the ball at feet was Digger Barnes.....whatta player!

How much would Digger price be nowadays?

[LiverBirdKop]

The one who stands out with his mesmerising runs and control of the ball at feet was Digger Barnes.....whatta player!

How much would Digger price be nowadays?

Priceless to us. Easily 30m + for Digger.

[ziggyy]

The one who stands out with his mesmerising runs and control of the ball at feet was Digger Barnes.....whatta player!

How much would Digger price be nowadays?

He'll be priceless. You don't sell such a player... quality and exemplary role model for our young players...

How I wish I can watch Barnes, Beardsley, Rush play again, even when he was older, guiding Robbie and Macca, he still had quality...

[The G in Gerrard]

I thought he did ok. Wasn't blown away by him as some were and for some reason he did better on the right than the left.

I remember his effort on goal in second half that went near corner flag didn't it

[jDJ]

I thought he did ok. Wasn't blown away by him as some were and for some reason he did better on the right than the left.

I remember his effort on goal in second half that went near corner flag didn't it

I don't think it even made it that far to be honest, it was a horrible strike.  Funny because he's actually fairly decent on his right foot as evidenced by his peach of a cross for Carroll's headed miss.

He really is a frustrating player.  He's got the ability to be an excellent player, not world class, but a very good sometimes excellent premiership winger.  First half yesterday he was really fairly poor.  I don't think he benefited from having a centre half playing behind him and it's yet another reason why the Agger at left back decision didn't really make much sense.  I prefer him on the right personally.  He's so predictable on the left because defenders know he offers so little threat inside they just reduce the space he has to run into by staying wide.  On the right, defenders know he can cut inside and shoot or play a good pass with his favoured foot but with his pace he still offers a threat on the outside.  When he cuts in on his left foot, it gives space for Glen Johnson to overlap on the right.  I just find it all very predictable when he plays on the left with a left footer behind him.  The pattern of play is so obvious it's easy to defend against.    Personally, I'd wouldn't mind seeing Glen Johnson at left back and Martin Kelly on the right if we're going to play Downing on the left.

Second half yesterday he played with a lot more belief.  I wasn't just the fact he switched wings.  I have slightly lost faith he'll ever play like that consistently to be honest.  He shows the same lack of confidence I'd expect to see in a young player, but he's a senior international now.  Hopefully, we'll sign someone to give him some proper competition and it will bring the best out of him.

[The G in Gerrard]

I don't think it even made it that far to be honest, it was a horrible strike.  Funny because he's actually fairly decent on his right foot as evidenced by his peach of a cross for Carroll's headed miss.

He really is a frustrating player.  He's got the ability to be an excellent player, not world class, but a very good sometimes excellent premiership winger.  First half yesterday he was really fairly poor.  I don't think he benefited from having a centre half playing behind him and it's yet another reason why the Agger at left back decision didn't really make much sense.  I prefer him on the right personally.  He's so predictable on the left because defenders know he offers so little threat inside they just reduce the space he has to run into by staying wide.  On the right, defenders know he can cut inside and shoot or play a good pass with his favoured foot but with his pace he still offers a threat on the outside.  When he cuts in on his left foot, it gives space for Glen Johnson to overlap on the right.  I just find it all very predictable when he plays on the left with a left footer behind him.  The pattern of play is so obvious it's easy to defend against.    Personally, I'd wouldn't mind seeing Glen Johnson at left back and Martin Kelly on the right if we're going to play Downing on the left.

That effort was with his left foot?

As for the rest I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest Downing can't play well because he has a left footed full back behind him as to why he can't play well on the left?

[carling]

Downing and Johnson on the right is top 4 standard.  For me anyway.

[jDJ]

That effort was with his left foot?

As for the rest I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest Downing can't play well because he has a left footed full back behind him as to why he can't play well on the left?

I'm not saying he can't play well, I just think it makes our attacking play very predictable when him and Enrique play on the left hand side.  Also, I think he's better from the right because he carries a danger either on the outside or when cutting in.  When he plays on the left he only really carries a threat on the outside and I think it makes him much easier to defend against.

Oh and you're right about that shot, I thought you were talking about the one he scuffed in the first half.

[Steele_uk]

He seemed to me to do everything possible in the first half to hide from the ball. He didn't want it, and seemed to get himself in positions where he wouldn't recieve it. He doesn't seem to have any hunger or desire to change his fortune, probably a confidence thing, but who knows? Watching him when he doesn't have the ball is quite eye-opening.

[Drinks Sangria]

I just can't see it working out for him here. I'd love for him to prove him wrong, but I'ver never truly rated him as a top player. You can say what you want about isolated good performances and imrpovements, but I don't think he's got to grips with the fact he plays for Liverpool F.C. Maybe he didn't realise the gravitas of that until he was in the city, in front of the fans at Anfield but I think it's got to him more than anyone, given his 'pedigree.' I'm for selling him. I've long regarded him as the worst of the summer signings. I'd seel this summer and upgrade Raheem to back-up, getting someone from abroad.

[The G in Gerrard]

Downing and Johnson on the right is top 4 standard.  For me anyway.

Downing hasn't done that much on the right to suggest that. If he is to play on right more often, he could take a look at Robben who excels in that position.

[T.Mills]

He needs to work on squaring his man up and beating him with a piece of skill, too many time she just kicks the ball as far as he can and runs like hell, this won't work on most modern day full backs.

He needs to swallow his pride; and ask Raheem to teach him how to do a couple of stepovers FFS!

[carling]

Downing hasn't done that much on the right to suggest that. If he is to play on right more often, he could take a look at Robben who excels in that position.

I think he's great on the right.  Hate to mention England but he looks good there for them as well.  Remember when he played for Villa against us he caused us all sorts of problems when he drifted over from the right.  Every time he's played there for us I thought he looked dangerous, seems to find a lot of space and is difficult for the left back to pick up.  Not to say I don't think he can be good on the left as well.

Take into consideration not many teams are strong down the right.  I'd take Downing and Johnson over Lennon and Walker.  Or Bosingwa and Kalou.  Or Sagna and Walcott.

Maybe I'm biased because I rate Downing and think things will click for him.  And Johnson is my favourite player (even though it makes me sounds like a twelve year old ).

[The G in Gerrard]

I think he's great on the right.  Hate to mention England but he looks good there for them as well.  Remember when he played for Villa against us he caused us all sorts of problems when he drifted over from the right.  Every time he's played there for us I thought he looked dangerous, seems to find a lot of space and is difficult for the left back to pick up.  Not to say I don't think he can be good on the left as well.

Take into consideration not many teams are strong down the right.  I'd take Downing and Johnson over Lennon and Walker.  Or Bosingwa and Kalou.  Or Sagna and Walcott.

Maybe I'm biased because I rate Downing and think things will click for him.  And Johnson is my favourite player (even though it makes me sounds like a twelve year old ).

No problem with Johnson but I don't think Downing can produce like Walcott can on the right side. In terms of goals especially. I do wonder in the grand scheme of things whether Downing will be able to hold down a position within the first team.

[carling]

No problem with Johnson but I don't think Downing can produce like Walcott can on the right side. In terms of goals especially. I do wonder in the grand scheme of things whether Downing will be able to hold down a position within the first team.

Yeah Walcott scores more but Downing's delivery and link up play is superior imo.  I think he is capable of adding goals to his game as well. He's got a good shooting technique and plenty of power behind his shot but for whatever reason it just hasn't happened for him.

I very much doubt he'll leave in summer so he will have another chance.  I just hope he takes it.

[Noble Nayudu]

I think he can be quite good on his day but he has always been very inconsistent. Last season with Villa was his best season in terms of consistency but sadly he has not built on it.

[The G in Gerrard]

Yeah Walcott scores more but Downing's delivery and link up play is superior imo.  I think he is capable of adding goals to his game as well. He's got a good shooting technique and plenty of power behind his shot but for whatever reason it just hasn't happened for him.

I very much doubt he'll leave in summer so he will have another chance.  I just hope he takes it.

He's not capable of adding goals, he's not a regular scorer bar two seasons in his career so far I think. While I don't think he's terrible, I don't think he's going to push us to bigger and better things.

I don't agree he was this bad vs Everton on Saturday:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2130185/Stewart-Downing-good-Liverpool.html

Downing and out after another day of very poor wing play

I admit I’m spoiled. I got hooked on Liverpool when I started watching Ian Callaghan and Peter Thompson. Then came Steve Heighway.

What wingers they were. Speed, ball control, the ability to take on the full back, they could cross the ball and score goals. The complete package.

Now Liverpool have Stewart Downing. For the life of me I just can’t see why the club paid £20million for him. As a fan I don’t understand what he brings to a team let alone be good enough to earn 33 England caps.

His performance on Saturday for me summed up how ineffective he has been for Liverpool.

In the first half he gave the ball away so easily, never looked threatening, never supplied a decent cross for Andy Carroll. When he’s on the right wing he’s far too predictable, taking the ball down the line before checking back so he can use his trusted left foot to either cross the ball or lay off a simple pass.

Even when he swapped with Jordan Henderson his contribution was minimal, the danger he posed to Everton too limited. Leighton Baines and Phil Neville hardly broke into a sweat against him.
 
The only time he threatened was early in the second half when he beat Baines on the outside and crossed - unbelievably - with his right foot. One meaningful contribution in 84 minutes. Big deal.

The biggest cheer in my household came when he was replaced by Craig Bellamy, who set up the winner.

I don’t know one Liverpool fan who thinks he’s good enough to wear the red shirt. In his 36 appearances to date, he hasn’t scored a League goal and has managed just two FA Cup goals. Tell me, what’s the point of Stewart Downing?

[carling]

never supplied a decent cross for Andy Carroll.

Hmm he is obviously talking out of his hoop here.

I don't know which game he was watching in minute 46 but it couldn't have been the one where Downing placed an inch perfect cross that Carroll should have buried.

But reading the rest of his article it's clear facts and insight play second fiddle to lazy soundbites and clichés.

Cheering when he got taken off as well.  Classy.  I hope this prick doesn't get anywhere near Anfield.

In fact he even said it was the biggest cheer of his household.  Mine personally was when Carroll stuck in the winner.  But for this nob head it was when Downing was taken off.

[scatman]

Downing and Johnson on the right is top 4 standard.  For me anyway.

I agree mate. I have problems with Downing's confidence though. I'd say he would beat 99% of the premier league's full backs for pace, and I say this because I've seen him outpace Micah Richards despite being a yard behind. He's got all the tools in his locker, just wish he would place confidence in himself to use them. Kenny definitely told him to run at Baines, because he did it constantly and him and johnson both played well together.

[jooneyisdagod]

I agree mate. I have problems with Downing's confidence though. I'd say he would beat 99% of the premier league's full backs for pace, and I say this because I've seen him outpace Micah Richards despite being a yard behind. He's got all the tools in his locker, just wish he would place confidence in himself to use them. Kenny definitely told him to run at Baines, because he did it constantly and him and johnson both played well together.

I have a feeling he just isn't fast off the blocks the way Bellamy is.  I've seen him leave defenders for dust as well but never off a standing start.  When he is already running he seems to be able to go to another gear if needed but I don't think he has the acceleration required.  And he runs in straight lines.  I still can't see how he is worth anywhere near the 20 million we decided to pay for him.  I know that isn't his fault and the blame squarely lies with Kenny for wanting the player and Commolli for having paid 20 million for such an average player but fucking hell is this lad average or what.

[carling]

He's not capable of adding goals, he's not a regular scorer bar two seasons in his career so far I think.

Yeah and think how them two seasons were for a lesser team, and you'd like to think he is in his peak years now too.

You don't think once this team gels (and I'm desperately hoping we see real signs for next season) that he can't better what he did for Villa or Boro?  I'd like to hope so.

[Roger Federer]

The biggest cheer of the match came after Downing was brought off? Makes sense, as who would cheer our two goals, or when the final whistle blew? What an idiot.

I thought Downing did well, but as I and many with me have said plenty of times, he needs to perform like this consistently. One good game occasionally isn't enough, and it's frustrating to watch, when it's clear that he could be so much better than he's shown this season. He isn't going to become a world beater, but he's got the qualities to be a very decent player indeed.

[jooneyisdagod]

Yeah and think how them two seasons were for a lesser team, and you'd like to think he is in his peak years now too.

You don't think once this team gels (and I'm desperately hoping we see real signs for next season) that he can't better what he did for Villa or Boro?  I'd like to hope so.

He can't mate.  Sorry.  Has never shown in his career that he had the ability to do it except perhaps last season for a bit and he has gone nowhere near the highs of last season.  If anything the few games last season where he came across as a good player were perhaps an exception rather than the rule.  Too many faults with his game for him to ever be top class sadly. 

[carling]

He can't mate.  Sorry.  Has never shown in his career that he had the ability to do it except perhaps last season for a bit and he has gone nowhere near the highs of last season.  If anything the few games last season where he came across as a good player were perhaps an exception rather than the rule.  Too many faults with his game for him to ever be top class sadly. 

So what would you say his level is then?

[robgomm]

He's not got much variety to him, certainly not the tricks etc. that Comolli talked about when Downing signed. He's OK, has moments of being very good but they are just moments. While it's no doubt true his stats would've benefitted from the forwards putting away more chances, he's still got to do much more next season in his own game or he'll be out.

[jooneyisdagod]

So what would you say his level is then?

He's a decent premier league player.  A 5-6 out of 10 player.  Actually, I'll be kind and say he is between a 6 and 7.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He isn't shite or anything.  But he is nowhere near the quality we require IMO.

[koolkamal]

I was never a fan of Downing but watching him this season he's decent but I don't think he's great. A good player to have in the squad. Think one of his biggest problems is confidence/self belief. It's sometimes what can separate a good player from a great player. I just don't think Downing has that but he can be an asset to the team.

[Notayesman]

Hmm he is obviously talking out of his hoop here.

I don't know which game he was watching in minute 46 but it couldn't have been the one where Downing placed an inch perfect cross that Carroll should have buried.

But reading the rest of his article it's clear facts and insight play second fiddle to lazy soundbites and clichés.

Cheering when he got taken off as well.  Classy.  I hope this prick doesn't get anywhere near Anfield.

In fact he even said it was the biggest cheer of his household.  Mine personally was when Carroll stuck in the winner.  But for this nob head it was when Downing was taken off.

Maybe you should read what he said, he was clearly referring to the 1st half. That cross for Carroll came in the 2nd off his right foot which he also refers to. You're letting your Downing love cloud your judgement somewhat. For me Walcott is a seriously limited player who will never live up to the early expectations. I'd still take him over Downing at this stage. The lad hasn't the character or believe to play here.

[The G in Gerrard]

Yeah and think how them two seasons were for a lesser team, and you'd like to think he is in his peak years now too.

You don't think once this team gels (and I'm desperately hoping we see real signs for next season) that he can't better what he did for Villa or Boro?  I'd like to hope so.

Who he did it for shouldn't matter should it? I honestly don't think he can do better than he did for Villa. His position in first 11 if we can get better should be under threat imo.

[Gods_Left_Boot]

To be fair I thought he was quite decent on saturday...

[The G in Gerrard]

I say this because I've seen him outpace Micah Richards despite being a yard behind.

I've seen this said a million times, once he outpaced Richards what happened because I honestly can't remember.

It's not just pace that you need, its when and where to use it which the likes of Walcott and Valencia benefit from regularly.

[carling]

Who he did it for shouldn't matter should it? I honestly don't think he can do better than he did for Villa. His position in first 11 if we can get better should be under threat imo.

Well if you join a club who create and score more goals than your last club did then it stands to reason you might bag a few more yourself.  Not that it means much if you look at our goalscoring season. 

It's not a golden rule obviously.  But look at Valencia at the Mancs for a good example.

[carling]

So for you guys who really don't think he's good enough.  What will your thoughts be if he's still here next season and Kenny is playing him week in week out?

[The G in Gerrard]

Well if you join a club who create and score more goals than your last club did then it stands to reason you might bag a few more yourself.  Not that it means much if you look at our goalscoring season. 

It's not a golden rule obviously.  But look at Valencia at the Mancs for a good example.

Like you said its not a golden rule but he rarely gets into positions to have a strike on goal like Maxi does for example.

[Notayesman]

So for you guys who really don't think he's good enough.  What will your thoughts be if he's still here next season and Kenny is playing him week in week out?

Well if he's performing as he as has then I'd be very fucking disappointed. He does seem more comfortable on the right, I think that's fair to say and with Johnson behind him it should in theory work better than it does on the other side with Enrique behind him but Downing has an awful lot of work to do until the end of the season, otherwise I would hope we'd be looking at alternatives there in the summer. He's done nothing to justify that sort of faith, the lad has no goals and no assists in the PL with only 2 goals and 1 assist in all competitions, while stats aren't everything that's a fucking dreadful return for a player supposedly at his peak.

[stroller]

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 koolkamal
There's a kind of hush
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 Re: The Downing Enigma
« Reply #306 on: Today at 03:43:23 PM »QuoteI was never a fan of Downing but watching him this season he's decent but I don't think he's great. A good player to have in the squad. Think one of his biggest problems is confidence/self belief. It's sometimes what can separate a good player from a great player. I just don't think Downing has that but he can be an asset to the team squad.

Fixed it.

[Neil D]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2130185/Stewart-Downing-good-Liverpool.html

Downing and out after another day of very poor wing play

I admit I’m spoiled. I got hooked on Liverpool when I started watching Ian Callaghan and Peter Thompson. Then came Steve Heighway.

What wingers they were. Speed, ball control, the ability to take on the full back, they could cross the ball and score goals. The complete package.

Now Liverpool have Stewart Downing. For the life of me I just can’t see why the club paid £20million for him. As a fan I don’t understand what he brings to a team let alone be good enough to earn 33 England caps.

His performance on Saturday for me summed up how ineffective he has been for Liverpool.

In the first half he gave the ball away so easily, never looked threatening, never supplied a decent cross for Andy Carroll. When he’s on the right wing he’s far too predictable, taking the ball down the line before checking back so he can use his trusted left foot to either cross the ball or lay off a simple pass.

Even when he swapped with Jordan Henderson his contribution was minimal, the danger he posed to Everton too limited. Leighton Baines and Phil Neville hardly broke into a sweat against him.
 
The only time he threatened was early in the second half when he beat Baines on the outside and crossed - unbelievably - with his right foot. One meaningful contribution in 84 minutes. Big deal.

The biggest cheer in my household came when he was replaced by Craig Bellamy, who set up the winner.

I don’t know one Liverpool fan who thinks he’s good enough to wear the red shirt. In his 36 appearances to date, he hasn’t scored a League goal and has managed just two FA Cup goals. Tell me, what’s the point of Stewart Downing?

Some people really don't get football.

[Jason_King]

Some people really don't get football.

To be fair I think we are entitled to expect more from a £20m winger, than what we have got so far.

If we had paid 4/5m for him then we could say he is a useful member of the squad. At 20m though, he should be much, much more than that.

[Notayesman]

Some people really don't get football.

Not sure what you qualms with that particular post are Neil? It might not be the most articulate but he more or less has Downing's performance in that game and the season as a whole in a nutshell. The lad has been worse than poor this season. For all the shit that Carroll has taken he is at least a young player who came with the massive baggage of a 35m price tag and a stop-start beginning to his career here and at least it looks like he might be starting to turn it around. Downing on the other hand while he came with a big price tag should be well able to deal with it, he's an international after all who had a few decent seasons at a mid-table team and should be hitting his peak. 0 goals and 0 assists in the league is a shocking return, worse than Pennant, Riera and even Gonzalez and he's frankly fucking lucky that so much media attention has been focused on Andy Carroll and for me Henderson, Shelvey, Maxi and Bellamy are all more deserving of a starting berth at the moment.

[Neil D]

To be fair I think we are entitled to expect more from a £20m winger, than what we have got so far.

If we had paid 4/5m for him then we could say he is a useful member of the squad. At 20m though, he should be much, much more than that.

Agreed, but that summary of that game against Everton is pitiful.