Topic: The Downing Enigma

[KirkVanHouten]

Why is everyone so keen to label one of our players 'our worst signing'?

[Wingman]

Why is everyone so keen to label one of our players 'our worst signing'?

Beats me too. Although, if they were vocal in not wanting him here in the first place then you can see the motive

[Grobbelrevell]

The lad could do with arriving in the box himself sometimes. He seems to have an aversion to the fucking thing.

Very true, that. I said to my dad whilst watching the Blackburn game, if Downing starts in place of Maxi, we don't score those first two goals because Downing doesn't have that same desire or natural inclination to attack the box and look to get on the end of things. It's a massive hole in his game in my opinion and something that he drastically needs to improve on if he's to ultimately prove a success with us.

If the ball is coming into the box from one side of the field, the attacking player on the opposite side should be attacking the far post every single time. That's a basic element of playing that role in my view. Unfortanately Downing seems reluctant to do so and more often than not will stand stationary on the far touchline ball watching.

[HoboTheLegend]

Our worst signing? You guys seem to have forgotten poulsen, konchesky and Keane to name a few

[Notayesman]

I'm of the opposite opinion. We haven't been very good this season. Suarez has been out for a long time. Gerrard has been out for a long time. Downing has not covered for them. He has not taken up a leading role. Something the team has been crying for. He has not matched Maxi, not even this season. Despite being shown extreme support by Kenny. He's been hiding. Where you see potential, I see an experienced passenger. We can't sign experienced players for very good money to be squad players. We sign them to be leaders. He has been no real improvement on Cole or Jovanovic. We needed him to be a major player, where his goals+assists for Villa from last season was the level of contribution we needed. At least.

Just compare him to Hoilett, Sinclair or Sebastian Larsson. Did we really find potential? Value for money? We are very kind on Downing if we think he's had an acceptable season. Compare him to Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi. Three direct competitors for a wide midfield role. I'd pick all three ahead of Downing.

He has some good games, like his 2nd half vs Everton. But he's not one to rely on when the going gets tough.

Very well put.

[OperationIvy]

Our worst signing? You guys seem to have forgotten poulsen, konchesky and Keane to name a few

Out of all the players we have signed recently he is definitely the worst. Particularly when you consider his cost, age, attitude, the fact that Kenny plays him even though he does little to deserve it. Carroll and Hendo are young and will improve (and are showing signs of that) and Adam cost a lot less.

Downing has never really achieved anything in his career and should really be at his peak at 27. We paid £20m for an average winger who cant dribble, has only okay crossing and has average pace (I know so many people on this forum kid themselves into thinking he has pace, but he loses almost every kick-and-run he tries, notably in our league game against Everton where Tony Hibbert completely did him for pace).

[Severely]

Would have Downing over Konchesky or Poulsen every fucking time. Can people not remember those signings, and what they meant for our team?

[scatman]

I want us to sign Sigurdsson, well I wanted us to sign him 2 years ago, but I reckon we should sign him to provide Downing some competition.

I still believe Downing will come good, he's set up a lot of chances this season, chances that goalscorers like Huntelaar would thrive on

[DanA]

Out of all the players we have signed recently he is definitely the worst. Particularly when you consider his cost, age, attitude, the fact that Kenny plays him even though he does little to deserve it. Carroll and Hendo are young and will improve (and are showing signs of that) and Adam cost a lot less.

Downing has never really achieved anything in his career and should really be at his peak at 27. We paid £20m for an average winger who cant dribble, has only okay crossing and has average pace (I know so many people on this forum kid themselves into thinking he has pace, but he loses almost every kick-and-run he tries, notably in our league game against Everton where Tony Hibbert completely did him for pace).

We bought Aquilani for 18.5m and sold him for 5.5. That's worse in terms of finances. If you mean talent then Poulsen is worst and I think Joe Cole will end up costing us a heavy sum despite signing on a free.

Downing isn't that bad

[stevensr123]

I want us to sign Sigurdsson, well I wanted us to sign him 2 years ago, but I reckon we should sign him to provide Downing some competition.

I still believe Downing will come good, he's set up a lot of chances this season, chances that goalscorers like Huntelaar would thrive on

He has set up a lot of good chances? Really?

I have always thought he was average, and him being (29?) next season will only make him worse in my opinion. He has never been go enough to start for liverpool week in and week out and never will, and that's not just judging him on this season alone. If we ever want to win the title or be challengers, we can not have downing as our main winger, As a squad player? sure, he is a perfect squad player. However you don't pay 20 million pound on a squad player.

[Neil D]

He played in more than 2 crosses during the course of the game.  I remember one Fellaini cleared and another Carroll headed over.

But the 2 crosses that keep getting mentioned created the 2 best chances from either side that didn't involve a defensive mistake or a free kick.

Unless I'm forgetting something not one player created a better chance in open play.  Suarez was dangerous without really creating an opening and Bellamy of course played in a brilliant free kick.  Everton's attacking players were your run of the mill shit.  Then there's Downing who put 2 chances on a plate for our strikers.  If the other winger contributes the same there's 4 gilt-edged chances.  If the other attacking midfielder does there's 6.  How many chances of that calibre should we need to win a game?

That was after a dire first half where our passing was about as incisive as a wet sponge.

I agree that we should expect more from Downing but for me he has shown enough for us to stick with him.  I think once this team gels properly he could be a very, very effective player for us.

Well said, I just highlighted two very good crosses that should have been goals, he put other balls in of course. He's getting better and working hard and now it's time for our strikers to convert the chances he keeps creating.

[Lucas DuoFlush]

Very true, that. I said to my dad whilst watching the Blackburn game, if Downing starts in place of Maxi, we don't score those first two goals because Downing doesn't have that same desire or natural inclination to attack the box and look to get on the end of things. It's a massive hole in his game in my opinion and something that he drastically needs to improve on if he's to ultimately prove a success with us.

If the ball is coming into the box from one side of the field, the attacking player on the opposite side should be attacking the far post every single time. That's a basic element of playing that role in my view. Unfortanately Downing seems reluctant to do so and more often than not will stand stationary on the far touchline ball watching.

To be fair, as much as I see Stewart as the most disappointing signing we've made, he's defensively better than Maxi by a mile, so we may have never conceded as much. Although its hard to say. A more defensive winger could completely have changed the course of the game in a number of different ways.

[Roger Federer]

To be fair, as much as I see Stewart as the most disappointing signing we've made, he's defensively better than Maxi by a mile

Can't agree with that. There's no major difference in my opinion, but if anything, I think Maxi is actually better. He closes down the opponents faster, and is smarter when cutting off space and passing options. Might not track back as much (don't know really), but that's about it. He's a better tackler as well.

[Lucas DuoFlush]

Can't agree with that. There's no major difference in my opinion, but if anything, I think Maxi is actually better. He closes down the opponents faster, and is smarter when cutting off space and passing options. Might not track back as much (don't know really), but that's about it. He's a better tackler as well.

Really? I'd like to see the stats on it I guess. My perception of Stewart is as a solid tackler and his tracking back with us has generally been phenomenal.

[Sat1]

Would of been a ok squad player for about £5 million. In all honesty, I wouldn't even pay that much for him. Throughout his career hasn't shown anything to suggest he has potential to be a great player.

Very average.

[Discipline]

14m loss. He was supposed to be replacing Babel... and I still find Babel a younger superior player any day of the week.

[Melbred]

14m loss. He was supposed to be replacing Babel... and I still find Babel a younger superior player any day of the week.

To be honest, they're both extremely average, and not the level we should be accepting. Difference being, Babel could actually chip in with a goal or two.

[Ickle Girl]

Really? I'd like to see the stats on it I guess. My perception of Stewart is as a solid tackler and his tracking back with us has generally been phenomenal.

He's a shithouse imo, and if he does 'close them down' he hardly ever puts a good tackle in.

[Roger Federer]

Really? I'd like to see the stats on it I guess. My perception of Stewart is as a solid tackler and his tracking back with us has generally been phenomenal.

Yes, he does track back, but he's not much of a tackler, and doesn't position himself as well as Maxi. Don't have any stats on this though, just using my eyes, so I could well be wrong!

[geoffstrong]

14m loss. He was supposed to be replacing Babel... and I still find Babel a younger superior player any day of the week.

Downing good brain, small balls

Babel no brain, gigantic balls,

if only we could merge them into one we might have a player!

[Discipline]

To be honest, they're both extremely average, and not the level we should be accepting. Difference being, Babel could actually chip in with a goal or two.

Babel has class. He was lazy though which Kenny could of fixed.

EDIT: Could not would.

[Discipline]

Downing good brain, small balls

Babel no brain, gigantic balls,

if only we could merge them into one we might have a player!

Really? I remember Ryan doing well whilst playing with Aquilani and Gerrard in Rafa's last season. He knew how to play on their level, so I fail to see how he had no footballing brain... and Downing somehow does.

[subroc]

To be honest, they're both extremely average, and not the level we should be accepting. Difference being, Babel could actually chip in with a goal or two.

Although babel cost 11.5 million and was sold for 5.8 million - meaning a transfer loss of 6M - he did score a few useful goals and assists in his time with us, and was always a greater threat to the other side than Downing usually can muster this season. And if we did sell Downing, we will be looking at a transfer loss of 10M probably given the stinker of a season he has just had.

[Cadno]

Babel has class. He was lazy though which Kenny could of fixed.

EDIT: Could not would.

Think this is rubbish, Babel was not just lazy he was and still is absolutely clueless on the pitch.  He has absolutely no game intelligence at all.  Kenny would have struggled to get any more out of him than Rafa and his current manager.  Downing has that intelligence and once he finds his balls will be a be a better player for Liverpool than Babel would ever be.

[Melbred]

Babel has class. He was lazy though which Kenny could of fixed.

EDIT: Could not would.

Can't agree mate. Remember being constantly frustrated at him running down blind alleys. I personally don't think Downing has that much more intelligence either.

[Fuzion6]

Think this is rubbish, Babel was not just lazy he was and still is absolutely clueless on the pitch.  He has absolutely no game intelligence at all.  Kenny would have struggled to get any more out of him than Rafa and his current manager.  Downing has that intelligence and once he finds his balls will be a be a better player for Liverpool than Babel would ever be.

Downing has game intelligence??! Really?? Maxi has intelligence...look at the positions he gets into and all the scoring opportunities but Downing? He hardly gets into a position to score and hardly takes his man on even when he has a lot more pace than the full back. Downing technically is a very good player, great touch and can put in nice delivery and has good pace but the reality is most the time he has no interest in using these attributes and his game intelligence is certainly not great. Babel had a worse touch but had more pace, a better shot and although his game intelligence was poor he at least would try things and defenders were afraid of him.
Even ignoring the price tag Babel was more effective than Downing has been and taking the price tag into the equation Downing has been a lot worse.

[Discipline]

Think this is rubbish, Babel was not just lazy he was and still is absolutely clueless on the pitch.  He has absolutely no game intelligence at all.  Kenny would have struggled to get any more out of him than Rafa and his current manager.  Downing has that intelligence and once he finds his balls will be a be a better player for Liverpool than Babel would ever be.

No game intelligence? Absolutely clueless?

Babel was arguably the best footballing prospect when signed, coming out of the arguably the best academy in the world. He was nowhere clueless on the pitch. He had to play in a position that he did not prefer and knew how to play with the 'pass and move' players at the club. He would of fit in well with the likes of Maxi, Suarez and the improvement of Leiva. Let's not forget, he was instrumental in that 4-0 Madrid demolition which was probably his best game for us.

Oh... and tell me when there has been a moment in Downing's footballing career where he's actually found "his balls... to be a better player"; he's been average at every club he's played for. 

[Cadno]

No game intelligence? Absolutely clueless?

Babel was arguably the best footballing prospect when signed, coming out of the arguably the best academy in the world. He was nowhere clueless on the pitch. He had to play in a position that he did not prefer and knew how to play with the 'pass and move' players at the club. He would of fit in well with the likes of Maxi, Suarez and the improvement of Leiva. Let's not forget, he was instrumental in that 4-0 Madrid demolition which was probably his best game for us.

Oh... and tell me when there has been a moment in Downing's footballing career where he's actually found "his balls... to be a better player"; he's been average at every club he's played for. 

Babel and pass and move? Are we talking about the same player?  The kick and rush shoot on sight player that played for us during  Rafas tenure?  No doubt he had potential but he did and still does not have what it takes to become the player he should have become.  That is mainky due to his lack of intelligence and desire.  If it was just the way he was treated here you would have expected him to become a star when he left,  thats obviously not the case. 

[Sat1]

Babel had fuck all game intelligence but I'd still have him here instead of downing

[Cadno]

Babel had fuck all game intelligence but I'd still have him here instead of downing

Why would you want a player who is at most the same level as Downing  instead of him?  Babel was not good enough, I still believe that Downing needs some time to prove if he has more to add. 

[Melbred]

Why would you want a player who is at most the same level as Downing  instead of him?  Babel was not good enough, I still believe that Downing needs some time to prove if he has more to add.

Because he actually scored goals.

[OperationIvy]

Babel had fuck all game intelligence but I'd still have him here instead of downing

I wouldnt say a lack of game intelligence was Babels worst problem. Although he was really fast, his touch was so bad he couldnt run fast with the ball at his feet.

Having said that, hes worth a few goals a season, and for that alone, I would take him over Downing.

[penga]

Babel never had the luxury of continuity of games like Downing or faith from the manager. You feel like he was just in a constant mode of frustration having to compete with up to 4 players per season for that 1 left wing spot, rarely used elsewhere where he could've been useful like the right wing or back up striker. He is one of those emotional players. I feel his crossing ability was underrated, so playing RW where he could just knock it past his man would work better than trying to cut inside and dribble from the left.

Babel to me didn't really seem that intelligent for the most part, but as Discipline said, there was definitely an ability to fit in with intelligent players and play to their level - this really became apparent when we indeed started playing true pass and move football with Aquilani and Gerrard in the side. He came from Ajax after all. He had some ability/intelligence to get in position for those tap ins too like Benayoun/Kuyt but not as often. He had potential but we didn't unlock it and his career has gone to shit.

His stats would've been much more productive had he started more often. He is one of those players that somewhat neglects defensive duties in order to save energy for attack e.g. in the Neymar, Hazard role but Benitez didn't like this even though he had Kuyt to balance on the other side. Babel FINALLY started working hard in defence towards at the end of Benitez's reign and was rewarded with more time, but it was too late - Roy came in and gave him even less opportunity and then he was sold before Kenny could use/help him.

All of this said Downing is a different player, and though I'm disappointed for the most part, I still believe Downing can improve heavily and increase his output almost 10 fold next season. Has been unlucky many times, a few mediocre performances in between but he has the tools, he can definitely play a good link up game but he is a part of it not the instigator, we just need a catalyst for pass and move football in the centre (like and Aquilani type). We need him to fire at a decent level next season even if we bring in a new wide man, there is no way he will end up with 0 goals in the league and less than a handful of assists.

[Discipline]

Babel and pass and move? Are we talking about the same player?  The kick and rush shoot on sight player that played for us during  Rafas tenure?  No doubt he had potential but he did and still does not have what it takes to become the player he should have become.  That is mainky due to his lack of intelligence and desire.  If it was just the way he was treated here you would have expected him to become a star when he left,  thats obviously not the case.

I'm not sure. I genuinely believe you're derating Babel's ability to make Downing look decent.

Babel is superior in every aspect. He can take a man on, knows how to cross (instead of just whipping it in and hoping for the best) and runs into space instead of well, hoping for someone to pass the ball at his feet. Not even going to go into the shooting debate. The joke of our transfer policy got rid of him for an older, inferior player (whos actually in his "prime") losing over 10m on a transfer fee in the mean time.

[penga]

I'm not sure. I genuinely believe you're derating Babel's ability to make Downing look decent.

Babel is superior in every aspect. He can take a man on, knows how to cross (instead of just whipping it in and hoping for the best) and runs into space instead of well, hoping for someone to pass the ball at his feet. Not even going to go into the shooting debate. The joke of our transfer policy got rid of him for an older, inferior player (whos actually in his "prime") losing over 10m on a transfer fee in the mean time.

I know it's a highlights video which will obviously make him look good. But even then you can see a lot of the play isn't just razzle dazzle, dribble and long shoot. Naturally Babel is a better finisher and more intelligent in finding space in the box than Downing because he was a striker rather than pure winger. As a different comparison, Kuyt is smarter than both but lacks the technical ability and speed. We have always been striving for the perfect winger but never get one (in the modern era).

You can clearly see the aspects Discipline is talking about, though I don't entirely agree Babel is superior in every aspect.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/veGeLFxRjdE" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/veGeLFxRjdE</a>

e.g. 37-44 sec - 2 bits of simple play pass and move play, the Portsmouth 1 - the impressive part is he moves himself within a tight space of 3 players where Aquilani running through can find him to play through the defence, the 2nd move against Inter another classic example. A few other bits and pieces similar throughout the video. e.g. 4:03, 3:43 - 1-2 goal with Gerrard bit similar to Downing's in the FA cup, etc

2:05 - the kind of smart work/positioning to create space in the box our no winger/striker apart from Suarez in the current team has.
-A lot of razzle dazzle in between...
-A couple of peach crosses

5:20 - a play that we've been missing, lay off then gut run into the box. How many times have we seen our strikers this season lay it off then not be bothered to get inside the box, leaving no one there. At least Babel knows when he has to move and when he doesn't have to move i.e. to create a wall pass or camp in space inside the box ready to receive a rebound or pass.

[newterp]

weird that Babel was brought up in this thread - but I agree - he was nowhere near as bad as people decided he was.

he beat players, scored goals, could get in a cross, and fast as hell which made him a very good impact sub.  Yeah he lacked mental fortitude from time to time - but he still was not a bad player - and as noted above if he could have gotten consistent game might have been a top player.

[Cadno]

I'm not sure. I genuinely believe you're derating Babel's ability to make Downing look decent.

Babel is superior in every aspect. He can take a man on, knows how to cross (instead of just whipping it in and hoping for the best) and runs into space instead of well, hoping for someone to pass the ball at his feet. Not even going to go into the shooting debate. The joke of our transfer policy got rid of him for an older, inferior player (whos actually in his "prime") losing over 10m on a transfer fee in the mean time.

I'd say your going the complete opposite.  To say or even suggest that Babel is a better crosser than Downing is bordering on the ridiculous.  Babel was a headless chicken whose pace made him look far better than he was.  The fact that even since leaving us he has not gone on to be better would suggest that he never had what it took to make it.  He was a player with potential that failed to realise it and was moved on he is not the first and will not be the last.

Downing is in his first season and whilst he has not shone Kenny has kept faith in him so Kenny sees somithing in him, he may be wrong but I would not put money on it.  Rafa one of the best managers in the world did not rate Babel and did not play him says it all for me.  The fact that Babel has only scored around 5 goals in 40 appearances for the Hoff since leaving playing where he wants seems to point to Rafa being right all along

Anyways

[Notayesman]

Pining for Ryan Babel? Fuck me things are bad.

[redmonkey]

The thing with Downing is to compare him to the left sided attacking players in the teams that we'll be challenging for the top four with next season

is he as good/better than them?

[PaLee]

Babel had 4 season here.

Downing had almost 1.

Compare.