Topic: Liverpool 1-1 Aston Villa: Full time....

[Twelfth Customer]

well done.  Now do the taking away and what figure do you get.

Net spending shouldn't be used as a mitigating factor in poor buys.

[kiNki]

we haven't spent 100m.   Bolding it doesnt make it anymore true.

[betyar]

He does, if you followed the news...so I guess we do have the wrong owners.

Oh my god. Lets buy this club man, but if you are not able to, please try to accept reality. Until we don't have a sheik at the top, the owners must spend wisely. Do you want us to be a toy of a guy with tons of dollars or you want a man who wants to be successful and demand results for his money? Unitl we don't turn into Chelsea and City we can't afford signings we made last summer and that's it. And please don't tell me that I don't understand what is this club all about.

[zaphriel]

Tony Barrett tweeted to confirm telegraph`s article of FSG asking Kenny to write written report.

That's not exactly him being pulled into the office to explain himself. Every business writes an end of year summary.

[SerbianScouser]

If Kenny has to start explaining himself to owners, then we have the wrong owners.

This just sunk in. WHAT ??

[Henry Gale]

With any luck we can sell Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson in the summer. Then we can start again.

[DutchRed]

we haven't spent 100m.   Bolding it doesnt make it anymore true.

We have spent 100m over 2011. We got a lot of money back from selling deals and cut a lot of wages, but we did spend a lot of money. And not always with great success so far.

[SerbianScouser]

Oh my god. Lets buy this club man, but if you are not able to, please try to accept reality. Until we don't have a sheik at the top, the owners must spend wisely. Do you want us to be a toy of a guy with tons of dollars or you want a man who wants to be successful and demand results for his money? Unitl we don't turn into Chelsea and City we can't afford signings we made last summer and that's it. And please don't tell me that I don't understand what is this club all about.

Haha...you didnt understand the conversation. Second part of that sentence was sarcastic.

[tommyLFC]

we haven't spent 100m.   Bolding it doesnt make it anymore true.

Then essentially it is like having a car worth £70 million, selling it and buying a new car that's worth £100 million. Except that new car is a bit shitter than the one you sold. Not great business no?

And there's no need for "that's an expensive car" comments.

[GBF]

If Kenny has to start explaining himself to owners, then we have the wrong owners.

why shouldn't he? it was one of the reason we didnt progress since the 90s.  The managers had it easy with the owners.  At least there is some people who are asking questions about the abysmal performance before handing over a pot of cash in a couple of months time. 

[Twelfth Customer]

We have spent 100m over 2011. We got a lot of money back from selling deals and cut a lot of wages, but we did spend a lot of money. And not always with great success so far.

The fact that our squad cost £50 odd million more than both Spur's and Arsenal should tell its own story.

We need to root out the buy British philosophy in the club and get back to technical excellence.

[mercurial]

And here is the problem - again, a lucky win against a rubbish team, not even in our league - and you're acting like it's the league we've won. I was made up that we won it, like I am every game we win - but there just aren't enough wins anymore. It's excuse after excuse and I've had enough, so that's why I'm not all shiney and happy, son. To be fair, at least I'm not one of the few that are slagging Carra to death - the abuse he's getting is shocking (I'd heard he posts on here).

" I will accept mediocrity if it helps to keep supporters like your ilk off the club" - you've already accepted mediocrity, you don't need any help from me.

Just go and support the team you like instead of wasting time here. The league cup is a trophy and on the way we defeated a few good teams. You are not even a supporter and this is not your club. Go and get a life instead of being a WUM.   

[Alan_X]

Look, I'm emotional.

My awl fella, the final whistle goes - he's welling up, going on about how he'll never see our beloved LFC win a title before he dies. It's heartbreaking.

He's right because we are MILES away from being challengers. Such mediocrity which seems to be embraced by some of our support - it's baffling. When Everton got to the FA Cup final a few years back - we pissed ourselves at how giddy they were. We were all "So fucking what?! It's the FA Cup - we've got bigger fish to fry". Now, it's incredible to see that it's us who're gettinmg giddy over a Fizzy Cup win and a possible FA Cup win also. THE LEAGUE IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER!

4 points ahead of West Brom ffs - WEST BROM! A point behind Everton - and we've spent more on one crap forward than they have in about 5 years on all of their squad. It's shocking. Accept mediocrity or realise just how bad things are - it's one or the other.

Boo-hoo. In the twenty years since we won the league we've won a European Cup and been to another final, won the UEFA Cuo, two Super Cups, four Carling Cups and three FA Cups. We've been regarded as one of the best and most feared teams in Europe, with some astounding results.

A year ago we were bouncing in the away end at Fulham and just this season we beat United, City and Chelsea in our cup runs.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Get a fucking grip. Seriously. Get a grip and support your team. The man who said that the league is our bread and butter won fuck all for seven years. And we still supported the team.

Some people just don't get it. Supporting your team is not conditional on success.

[betyar]

Haha...you didnt understand the conversation. Second part of that sentence was sarcastic.

Fuck, I wanted to answer to the guy you wrote to.

[lfcmaster]

why is newcastle's scouting system so much better than liverpool ?

thats one question i would ask if i was owner

[shredder_red]

If Kenny has to start explaining himself to owners, then we have the wrong owners.

Our motive is to win games and titles. Not to protect Dalglish's dignity. The owners are now in a precarious position. If they don't sack Kenny (and maybe Clarke & Comolli too), they will (arguably) not get a top 4 spot, which means another season of "reinforcing". If they sack Kenny and the new manager fails, the fans will hate them for it. This is actually a risk they should have considered when they decided to offer Kenny a full time contract.

[Alan_X]

Net spending shouldn't be used as a mitigating factor in poor buys.

What about good sales? Was £50 million for Torres good business?

[The Grinch]

Couldn't agree more about the academy mate. I think we need to be playing that way, even if it's with - comparatively - worse players. We need to know that when one them steps up they know the role they're playing already. ... And frankly we need to have a pair of bollocks with that. We need to know when Flanagan steps up he knows his job and doesn't need Jamie Carragher to tell him what it is, whilst hanging off the back of Agbonalahor.

This is the point I made with a mate when discussing the Porto 4-3-3. We basically said the same thing about Carroll; not that he couldn't play as one up top, because I think he did at Newcastle, but that he isn't active enough in the box to play as the one striker in the box when you've got a winger like Downing (or Varela in Porto's case) hanging out wide putting in decent supply. He's static in the box, someone like Falcao is moving constantly - so is Darren Bent, to use someone who Downing got the best out of, and who got the best out of Downing a 4-3-3.

Basically, the way you implement it I think - I'll use the Porto 4-3-3 here for example, but it's true of any system - you stick the system out and then you decide where the weakest points, then you base your recruitment policy from there. If we were to copy Porto I'd say the first thing we need is a far better striker than Andy Carroll. That's a given. From there I think you look to improve on Downing and Henderson/Adam as the one between Lucas and Gerrard. Why I'd say the 4-3-3 would make the best out of our current squad is that whilst I think we could upgrade on Downing and Adam, Porto had a player who was as limited as Downing offering supply, and Adam was at his best in that formation at Blackpool.

The same thing applies to our 4-2-3-1 though at Academy level. Oh, and it is 4-2-3-1, I just want to get that off my chest. I'm sick of people calling something 4-2-3-1 when it works and 4-4-2 when it doesn't. The Academy play a very definite 4-2-3-1, win or lose. The U18s play a lot closer to Rafa's Valencia sides than any of his Liverpool sides, which frankly I would've called 4-4-1-1 as much as anything, because I often felt it was only Gerrard and Torres that were given the freedom alternate position. There's much more flexibility in how the academy play.

Anyways, the same thing applies if you copy them. You put the system out on the pitch and then you look at the areas that most need improvement. The problem we have playing 4-2-3-1, as opposed to 4-3-3 is that even though Kenny has done it very rarely anyways (and I don't think we'll ever see him play it regularly), 4-2-3-1 doesn't allow you to play Suarez as a wide player. With that in mind I think you've got to choose whether you play him as the '1', or whether you play him at the centre of the '3', which of course means dropping Gerrard back into the '2', because whether people like it or not the days of Gerrard on the right are over - and frankly I'm not sure he has the legs for it these days anyways.

Personally speaking I think you play Suarez up the top if you're going down that route, with Gerrard behind him, and you concentrate on strengthening the flanks and the centre of midfield in the summer - in that order, but knowing you ideally need another big player next to Lucas, because unlike the youth and reserve sides we don't have the attacking players currently to control a game in the final third of the pitch, which allows the likes of Coady and Roberts (or Coady and Roddan last year) just to offer depth to an attack and recycle the possession from side to side.

I think the first team would require more surgery to play a genuine 4-2-3-1, and it would suit less players as a result, but long-term the benefits would outweigh the negatives. The big thing now is that you can start to see with the players coming up how they’ve been coached to play this system. I don’t mean the current reserves. They look like they’ve been coached to play the formation, but the ones below that. Someone like Jordan Lussey has obviously been coached with playing as the more attacking member of the midfield ‘2’ in mind. That’s how he’s been taught to play, and if we’ve done it right you’re going to see more and more of this over the next few years, so we have an obligation, surely, to make sure the role the young lads have been prepared for for however many years it will be by the time they get the chance, is the one that they’re going to be playing.

Brilliant post Juan and for me worth a thread of it's own.

I couldn't agree more, for me it's like trying to complete a jigsaw when five jigsaws have been thrown in a box together. You can piss about for decades randomly trying to fit pieces together and end up getting nowhere. We need to decide which completed jigsaw we want to end up with, discard the pieces that will never fit and then recruit the missing pieces.

It really is that simple.

Decide on a vision, a Footballing ideology and then back it one million percent.

The most heartening thing for me over the last few years has ironically been watching the kids lose games whilst sticking to their principles. Short term pain leads to long term gain.

[Raymondo]

we haven't spent 100m.   Bolding it doesnt make it anymore true.

Just because Torres brought money in, it doesn't mean we didn't buy a few rubbish footballers.

It'd be like United fans saying they didn't pay a penny for Young, Jones, De Gea etc (The Ronaldo cash) - they did, obviously.

[slimbo]

Low on confidence, low on ideas, low on execution, low on quality.

Pretty much sums up today for me.

[hugoboss]

That would be like spending £30m on Dimatar Berbatov and using him as a an ornament to make your bench look pretty.

As long as you get the points it doesn't matter

[Twelfth Customer]

Boo-hoo. In the twenty years since we won the league we've won a European Cup and been to another final, won the UEFA Cuo, two Super Cups, four Carling Cups and three FA Cups. We've been regarded as one of the best and most feared teams in Europe, with some astounding results.

A year ago we were bouncing in the away end at Fulham and just this season we beat United, City and Chelsea in our cup runs.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Get a fucking grip. Seriously. Get a grip and support your team. The man who said that the league is our bread and butter won fuck all for seven years. And we still supported the team.

Some people just don't get it. Supporting your team is not conditional on success.

What about bitching? I love bitching, even when we win baubles.

Can we let people support the club in their own unique individual way? Or is there an unwritten code of behaviour?

Me personally, I would hate success, because then I would have nothing to bitch about.

[hugoboss]

we haven't spent 100m.   Bolding it doesnt make it anymore true.

we have spent 100M acquiring new players, no?

[Camarero25]

Couldn't agree more about the academy mate. I think we need to be playing that way, even if it's with - comparatively - worse players. We need to know that when one them steps up they know the role they're playing already. ... And frankly we need to have a pair of bollocks with that. We need to know when Flanagan steps up he knows his job and doesn't need Jamie Carragher to tell him what it is, whilst hanging off the back of Agbonalahor.

This is the point I made with a mate when discussing the Porto 4-3-3. We basically said the same thing about Carroll; not that he couldn't play as one up top, because I think he did at Newcastle, but that he isn't active enough in the box to play as the one striker in the box when you've got a winger like Downing (or Varela in Porto's case) hanging out wide putting in decent supply. He's static in the box, someone like Falcao is moving constantly - so is Darren Bent, to use someone who Downing got the best out of, and who got the best out of Downing a 4-3-3.

Basically, the way you implement it I think - I'll use the Porto 4-3-3 here for example, but it's true of any system - you stick the system out and then you decide where the weakest points, then you base your recruitment policy from there. If we were to copy Porto I'd say the first thing we need is a far better striker than Andy Carroll. That's a given. From there I think you look to improve on Downing and Henderson/Adam as the one between Lucas and Gerrard. Why I'd say the 4-3-3 would make the best out of our current squad is that whilst I think we could upgrade on Downing and Adam, Porto had a player who was as limited as Downing offering supply, and Adam was at his best in that formation at Blackpool.

The same thing applies to our 4-2-3-1 though at Academy level. Oh, and it is 4-2-3-1, I just want to get that off my chest. I'm sick of people calling something 4-2-3-1 when it works and 4-4-2 when it doesn't. The Academy play a very definite 4-2-3-1, win or lose. The U18s play a lot closer to Rafa's Valencia sides than any of his Liverpool sides, which frankly I would've called 4-4-1-1 as much as anything, because I often felt it was only Gerrard and Torres that were given the freedom alternate position. There's much more flexibility in how the academy play.

Anyways, the same thing applies if you copy them. You put the system out on the pitch and then you look at the areas that most need improvement. The problem we have playing 4-2-3-1, as opposed to 4-3-3 is that even though Kenny has done it very rarely anyways (and I don't think we'll ever see him play it regularly), 4-2-3-1 doesn't allow you to play Suarez as a wide player. With that in mind I think you've got to choose whether you play him as the '1', or whether you play him at the centre of the '3', which of course means dropping Gerrard back into the '2', because whether people like it or not the days of Gerrard on the right are over - and frankly I'm not sure he has the legs for it these days anyways.

Personally speaking I think you play Suarez up the top if you're going down that route, with Gerrard behind him, and you concentrate on strengthening the flanks and the centre of midfield in the summer - in that order, but knowing you ideally need another big player next to Lucas, because unlike the youth and reserve sides we don't have the attacking players currently to control a game in the final third of the pitch, which allows the likes of Coady and Roberts (or Coady and Roddan last year) just to offer depth to an attack and recycle the possession from side to side.

I think the first team would require more surgery to play a genuine 4-2-3-1, and it would suit less players as a result, but long-term the benefits would outweigh the negatives. The big thing now is that you can start to see with the players coming up how they’ve been coached to play this system. I don’t mean the current reserves. They look like they’ve been coached to play the formation, but the ones below that. Someone like Jordan Lussey has obviously been coached with playing as the more attacking member of the midfield ‘2’ in mind. That’s how he’s been taught to play, and if we’ve done it right you’re going to see more and more of this over the next few years, so we have an obligation, surely, to make sure the role the young lads have been prepared for for however many years it will be by the time they get the chance, is the one that they’re going to be playing.

Think this has to be the way to go.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the way the club was going if we tried to establish the same philosophy throughout the club. Even if the results were as bad as they've been.

[blert596]

Some people just don't get it. Supporting your team is not conditional on success.

Spookily I had a discussion (that turned into an argument) that ended up with me trying to get exactly this across before we even kicked off today.

My words were a bit more colourful though.

[Z e u s]

Boo-hoo. In the twenty years since we won the league we've won a European Cup and been to another final, won the UEFA Cuo, two Super Cups, four Carling Cups and three FA Cups. We've been regarded as one of the best and most feared teams in Europe, with some astounding results.

A year ago we were bouncing in the away end at Fulham and just this season we beat United, City and Chelsea in our cup runs.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Get a fucking grip. Seriously. Get a grip and support your team. The man who said that the league is our bread and butter won fuck all for seven years. And we still supported the team.

Some people just don't get it. Supporting your team is not conditional on success.

Well said!

[-Q-]

I actually believe (may get slaughtered for this) that there's enough talent in this squad to go far. Shelvey and Henderson will mature well imo. Kelly will too. There are players that may not be a good fit for us, but some criticism aimed at very young lads is unjustified imo.

Many people forget that our new owners have a plan and only the time will tell if it was a good one. I believe we will see a huge improvements from all our new players and that they all have a future here. If I have to be critical of the 'plan' so far it is the two January windows; a DM (upgrade on Poulsen) and a versatile defender (upgrade on Konchesky) the last year, a striker this year as it is the lack of goals that undone us (not to replace Carroll but to allow him to develop). We have a very thin squad still and no young players that can step up at this stage.

[Twelfth Customer]

What about good sales? Was £50 million for Torres good business?

As it turned out, it was as good as blowing £35m on an unproven Premiership striker yes. The point being good sales should not be used as an argument for covering for bad buys. One was good, the other was bad. They were separate decisions.  Judge them separately.

[Andy]

Just because Torres brought money in, it doesn't mean we didn't buy a few rubbish footballers.

I don't agree that we bought rubbish footballers, but i do agree that the net issue can 'paper the cracks'.

however, we talk about net spend because if you spend £100m on new players in addition to your current squad, this is a sizable investment. however if you sell players worth £250m as well then you are likely to have weakened your team rather than strengthened it.

selling torres and Meireles were big losses for me.

[TOMMO86]

Think this has to be the way to go.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the way the club was going if we tried to establish the same philosophy throughout the club. Even if the results were as bad as they've been.

Ala Barcelona.

From the u5's 6s and 7s you play the same way as the first team.

[Passmaster Molby]

If Kenny has to start explaining himself to owners, then we have the wrong owners.

You really do think Kenny is bigger than this club and anyone else associated with it don't you? It seems to be a common thought amongst many of this fanbase that Kenny is untouchable and anyone who dare question a decision he makes is being disloyal.

In my opinion this attitude amongst the fans, as well as Kenny's inability to get the best out of the resources he has been given as our manager, are contributing heavily to the problems this club is facing now. We have fallen so far below the standards we set over the previous 50 plus years its shameful, yet instead of seeking solutions or holding people accountable for not doing their job well enough we have fans refusing to say anything against our underperforming manager and his staff.

The big fat fucking elephant sat straight in the middle of the room is that our manager is not doing as well as he should be with the resources he has been given. He preaches we should all stick together, but I just hope he goes home at night and wonders if he could do that bit more to improve our results because if he thinks we can't do anymore than we are right now (and his postmatch interviews suggest he is very happy with the players so they can't be the problem) then we are seriously fucked.

[robbie keane]

What about good sales? Was £50 million for Torres good business?

Surely it's only good business if re-invested correctly, otherwise it simply un-does all the good work left from the previous management. I can not understand the argument that net spend is all that matters when money has been clearly spent.

[Houlliers goal face]

Then essentially it is like having a car worth £70 million, selling it and buying a new car that's worth £100 million. Except that new car is a bit shitter than the one you sold. Not great business no?

And there's no need for "that's an expensive car" comments.

You can't be serious! We have underperformed badly in the league, and it's been compounded in the last 2 months with the players looking more motivated in the cups and "almost" giving up on the league - but do you seriously think our squad has gone backwards from the one we had in January 11?

[kiNki]

Net spending shouldn't be used as a mitigating factor in poor buys.

The reality. We had a poor squad.   3 transfer windows.  First window) net spend zilch. 2 out 2.  2nd window) net spend 40m 10 players out 6 in.  3rd window) nobody in net spend zilch.

Some wish to use transfer 'spend' as a self flagellation stick, the weirdoes.

[Gazza-LFC]

It doesn't matter if we had spent 10m last summer people would still be bitching about league position the money is just a tool in peoples criticism of the management.

[skooma]

Should have been 2-1. Fucking awful refs.

[andy in warrington]

Ala Barcelona.

From the u5's 6s and 7s you play the same way as the first team.

I hope our U5s 6s and 7s dont play like our first team 

[shredder_red]

Some people just don't get it. Supporting your team is not conditional on success.

From a purely biological perspective, and don't bash me for this, we feel happy when the team we supports wins (endorphin release). So what usually happens is we choose a successful team to support hoping they continue winning (or maybe because of a family/regional thing, which leaves you with limited choices). Of course, backing out and supporting another team now is being a coward with no sense of loyalty.

[macca888]

Our motive is to win games and titles. Not to protect Dalglish's dignity.

Everything else you've said, I'm not arsed about. But the bit I've highlighted? Well you can just get to fuck. I for one care much more about Kenny's dignity than his signings or net/gross spend arguments. Maybe you don't think the most dignified ambassador our club has ever known needs that dignity and integrity protecting. Well it obviously does. From fucking whoppers like you.

[Easy]

We may have sold players but the fact is we have spent £100 million. It doesn't matter how the money was got, at one point someone in the club made various decision to move out certain players and bring others in, in the process spending £100 million. To arguably go backwards.

Perhaps if you say that the money "re-invested" in the playing squad has been approx £100mil she might get it? I understand your point even if no-one else does. Net spend doesn't enter your argument it's about how money has been re-invested and in LFC's case, re-invested badly.