Topic: Andy Carroll: Future uncertain.... ?

[Carolina Red]

This would be absolutely accurate if you knew nothing about football.

Yeah that was the point.

Note: you can disagree with someone's opinion, and offer points to support your opinion, without constantly insulting other posters by calling them idiots, know-nothings, and whatnot. You should really try it sometime, you might have a more pleasant outlook on things.

[kenworthy]

Spend 35 mil on a striker. wait a year for him to start to look menacing. As soon as he does. Sell him.



Awesome

To be fair, Rodgers wasn't the one who bought him or waited for a year. This is his regime now. He probably looks back a year and his jaw hits the floor that we paid 35m for a striker who was valued 1m the year before by his club, had one international cap, and 5 months of top flight experience. Then maybe he looks at his blueprint, his philosophy and what he's trying to achieve at our club and figures its time to recoup as much of the 35m that we can. It's pretty simple in the end. And if FSG have told Brogger he doesn't need to persist with the previous regime's mistakes (perceived or real) then why should/would he?

[swordfishtrombone]

Brogger? What the...?! Why not just, you know, Brendan or Rodgers?

[Didi_ram]

Dont like this particularly, unless we can get another brilliant striker. We already needed an extra striker,say that is Borini. So if Andy goes, we HAVE to get someone.

[Halibut-Thumb]

Andy is classic nr9...so we need classic wingers, classic fullbacks, classic centre backs etc if we want to create that kind of system...and thats not going to happen under Brendan

Brendan likes modern football...he likes players with a lot of abilities who can pass, move, press, create space etc...

Barca tried it with Ibra...Ibra who is five times better than Andy couldnt find himself in that system

plus if we keep Andy, Suarez is going to suffer because that partnership never worked, and never will

Did Inter, Juve and Milan all use "classic" wingers, fullbacks and centrebacks while he was banging in goals for fun all those years too?

[Fordy]

Completely stupid to sell him just as he looks to be finding some kind of form. Typical media bullshit.

Carroll being in form has nothing to do with anything.

If Rodgers can't see him in the 1st team or hardly playing then they is no point in keeping him.

It's not bullshit by the media at all unless you fail to ignore BR quotes.

[Halibut-Thumb]

Carroll being in form has nothing to do with anything.

If Rodgers can't see him in the 1st team or hardly playing then they is no point in keeping him.

It's not bullshit by the media at all unless you fail to ignore BR quotes.

From a financial perspective I think it's stupid, but yes you have a point. I think the quotes were taken far out of context, probably the intention of them were just to test Andy's mentality. Hopefully he rises above the headlines and works hard to show Rodgers he has the capabilities to stay and succeed which I think he does have. There's quotes from Rodgers when he was still Swansea manager before the final game of last season praising Carroll and saying he thinks he'll have better season this time round and be a great player for the club. I'll look them up for you.

[Halibut-Thumb]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/footballnation/football-news/2012/05/13/swansea-city-boss-brendan-rodgers-looking-for-top-10-hit-on-elvis-day-91466-30955108/

“I thought Liverpool were excellent in midweek and Andy Carroll was really impressive.

“It shows it’s a totally different pressure when you play for a big club like Liverpool. You are expected to win every single game and it was new for him.

“The adaptation takes time and forget about the football, it was a life change.

“He was bought for the long term. He didn’t put the price tag on his head. He’s a young kid who I have seen come through the England ranks. It was always going to take time.

“But we are starting to see the first real performances that you think he can go on and become a really fantastic player for Liverpool.

“He looked lean, mobile and great in his physicality the other night and his touch was good.

“He got a boost from his cameo in the FA Cup final and he’ll be coming here to do well.”

[subroc]

There seems to be as lot of rumours going round about Carroll being offered for sale - too many for it to be media fabrication? We shall see...

[Fordy]

From a financial perspective I think it's stupid, but yes you have a point. I think the quotes were taken far out of context, probably the intention of them were just to test Andy's mentality. Hopefully he rises above the headlines and works hard to show Rodgers he has the capabilities to stay and succeed which I think he does have. There's quotes from Rodgers when he was still Swansea manager before the final game of last season praising Carroll and saying he thinks he'll have better season this time round and be a great player for the club. I'll look them up for you.

The quotes while BR was manager at Swansea doesn't matter mate. That's when he was manager at a different club playing a different kind of football.

In terms of BR quotes aiming to test Andy's mentality - why? If Carroll is in form then why would BR have to do that? No reason to at all.

Maybe Carroll just doesn't fit into his plans.. Maybe it's just as simple as that.

[Fordy]

There seems to be as lot of rumours going round about Carroll being offered for sale - too many for it to be media fabrication? We shall see...

Media fabrication - 4 days later Liverpool or BR haven't come out to dismiss this fabrication for the record British buy who we spent 35m on.

[kiwiscouser]

well, it is the second window in a row that he has been offered out if you believe the weight of media reports. 

I cant see him here for the start of the season but do not fancy a loan.  Let him go to the highest bidder.  We will need all the money we can get to help Rodgers be successful. 

[GIPPO77]

I will be very very disappointed if we sell or loan out Carroll, as I think he is a very good and improving player.

[Vidocq]

Did Inter, Juve and Milan all use "classic" wingers, fullbacks and centrebacks while he was banging in goals for fun all those years too?

i said Ibra is five times better than Andy...that means he's better at everything..movement,speed,technique etc...he offers much more than what a classic nr9 offers...and even he couldnt make it at Barca, not to mention a limited classic nr9

that was my point

[Kovai Red]

I still believe he can do a job for us. Our manager is not foolish enough to pack him out without even seeing him play. Media built this shit.

[Believe]

This 'story' has nothing in it. BR asked about loan, says with any player - with AC no different - if a loan was good for club and player it would be considered. Now he's off to West Ham when he hasn't done one training session in pre-season because of late arrival due to Euros? Utter bollocks and media twisting of the highest degree.

Doesn't surprise me that the usual array of whoppers want him sold, as the same sort of people couldn't wait to get shot of player-of-the-year Martin Skrtel when a similarly fictitious 'transfer story' broke about him. 

We need all our players and some additions and I think working with BR will see him continue to develop.

[Fordy]

I still believe he can do a job for us. Our manager is not foolish enough to pack him out without even seeing him play. Media built this shit.

Not a big fan of the media.

But please explain how the media buit this shit when BR said he would consider sending him out on loan.

You don't send a 35m record buy out on loan and not willing to sell.

[Fordy]

Media

The media are loving us fans not backing the manager already. Rubbing their hands with pens ready waiting to hammer us fans for not backing the manager again.

Many feel we never gave Hodgson a chance.

So we either back BR with what ever he decides to do with Carroll or any other players or we don't.

But we're starting to look silly.

I like Carroll but am happy with what BR decides to do - We all should be.

It's up to you to decide but some fans are playing right into the hands of the media with this.

[me76]

Not a big fan of the media.

But please explain how the media buit this shit when BR said he would consider sending him out on loan.

You don't send a 35m record buy out on loan and not willing to sell.

I agree with this, it just seemed like such an unexpected response.  He didn't deny it, or change the subject, just said yeah I'd consider it. 

[bunjibloomer]

I still believe he can do a job for us. Our manager is not foolish enough to pack him out without even seeing him play. Media built this shit.

Hopefully you're right mate. Ridiculous carry on.

The lad is young and deserves a better chance than he got under KK. Another 2 seasons for me.

We need strikers! We shouldn't be even considering selling or loaning him out. He can defo have a role to play next season.

People saying he won't fit into Buck's style of play. I'm don't fully agree. Yes he can be cumbersome however he has showed towards the end of last season he is good on the deck and can grab a goal in the air here and there. With good support from the wings and Stevie playing good diagonal balls in he can make a difference.

Bad news if true imo.

[Halibut-Thumb]

I think you're reading very very far into it Fordy, pointless having an argument with you so I'll leave it at that.

[Number 7]

To be honest, with Borini looking likely, and Dempsey rumours gathering pace, it's no surprise this news with Carroll possibly being shipped out.

I think Rodgers will take a look at him when he gets back, so some of it may well be overblown. However, I still believe that Rodgers doesn't see him as part of his system. The big question will be, is he worth keeping to Rodgers for plan B?

[J-Mc-]

I think you're reading very very far into it Fordy, pointless having an argument with you so I'll leave it at that.

You've learnt quick.

Fordy is probably the only poster who argues a point with his opinion however he states it as fact, he hates all but would shag Adam in a heartbeat and is generally a transfer forum git

[stevedo]

John Aldrige..good with his head..had the turning circle of an oil tanker...played as an out and out target man....not fit to lace the boots of previous Liverpool strikers....... in a team which was the finest example (and most exhilarating) of attacking pass and movement  this country has seen in the past fifty years....would have won the Eurpean Cup had we been in it and given this Barcelona team a run for its money....systems?...success will always be about good footballers and managers mounding them into teams....if only it was about systems and clever managers!...we'd have a few more league titles over the past ten years if it was!

Nicely put.

[didi]

Wages would be an issue for all of the domestic clubs being linked with him as well, I don't see too many of them being in a position to pay £70-80k a week for anyone.

they be in a better position then foriegn clubs

[Dubit10]

THe media are just stirring the pot. I don't think we'll about anyone coming or going until it's done.

[didi]

Nicely put.

yea but Aldo had the greatest Liverpool side creating those chances that on average throughout a game would even make me good!

[Packalacky]

I already nailed my colours to the mast after the Italy game on this thread, so not surprised BR came out with these comments.

I opened that post with "I hope and pray we do sell him" and hopefully that will now happen, anything over £10 million should be accepted in my opinion.

As I pointed out, pass and movement are the key to BRs system and they are two things which Carroll is incapable of doing. If at 23 you are unable to pass a ball to a team mate 5 meters away, then I'd say it's a bit too late to learn. Add to that his non existent movement in the box, his lack of speed, skill or footballing brain, and you just have a very limited footballer that is good at flicking headers to the opposition. The type of football that would bring the best out of Carroll is something I hope we will never see at Anfield. He will do decently at Stoke or Allardyce's West Ham, and that is his level.

We need to build a team around our best player, Luis Suarez. Getting Borini and Dempsey in would be a good start. Players with good technical ability able to make lots of runs behind the last defenders. Watching Suarez getting a hat-trick last night just demonstrates what we have missed by focusing so much money and focus on trying to get the best out of Carroll. 

[BarryCrocker]

I already nailed my colours to the mast after the Italy game on this thread, so not surprised BR came out with these comments.

I opened that post with "I hope and pray we do sell him" and hopefully that will now happen, anything over £10 million should be accepted in my opinion.

As I pointed out, pass and movement are the key to BRs system and they are two things which Carroll is incapable of doing. If at 23 you are unable to pass a ball to a team mate 5 meters away, then I'd say it's a bit too late to learn. Add to that his non existent movement in the box, his lack of speed, skill or footballing brain, and you just have a very limited footballer that is good at flicking headers to the opposition. The type of football that would bring the best out of Carroll is something I hope we will never see at Anfield. He will do decently at Stoke or Allardyce's West Ham, and that is his level.

We need to build a team around our best player, Luis Suarez. Getting Borini and Dempsey in would be a good start. Players with good technical ability able to make lots of runs behind the last defenders. Watching Suarez getting a hat-trick last night just demonstrates what we have missed by focusing so much money and focus on trying to get the best out of Carroll.

Not really into building a team around one player. Failure to meet certain targets this season could see Suarez look for greener pastures.

 

[Brentie]

Mike Jefferies on Twitter reckons he has played his last game for the club. I know Mike is a bit of a beaut sometimes, but has this got any legs?

All signs point to this being true mate.

I think it's quite clear we're trying to get rid of him. What remains to be seen is if we're going to be able to or not.

[Packalacky]

Not really into building a team around one player. Failure to meet certain targets this season could see Suarez look for greener pastures.

When a team contains a player as good as Suarez, then it's only makes sense to build a team around him. Arsenal do it around Van Persi, the Mancs did it around Van Nistelrooy and then Ronaldo, getting the best out of truly world class players benefits the team. When they leave then the system can be changed, but while Suarez is here we need to utilize him as best as we can.

[Walshy®]

All signs point to this being true mate.

I think it's quite clear we're trying to get rid of him. What remains to be seen is if we're going to be able to or not.

Yeah fair enough, been trying to catch up with it all and hard to separate the rumours, lies and half truths.

[Robo707]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

He did start to come onto a game towards the end of the season, but he didn't score enough goals.

These reports will not make AC feel at home here at all, so he won't start well - his confidence will be down again.

I think Brendan perhaps should have waited until everyone was back before releasing statements like he has.

I am however, right behind the manager in whatever he does.

I also don't believe accepting 10 million would be the right thing. We need to push for 20 million IF we can.

[BarryCrocker]

IF he’s going out on loan, do not put a buy price in the clause. Give whoever it may be 1st offer. If he’s outstanding, we need to get whatever he’s worth to other clubs. And insert a sell on clause.

[dotheoffski]

Although I understand why he is being sold, I cannot help but feel that the clubs interested see an opportunity of getting potentially a superb player on the cheap.  Maybe that a loan would be best so we can get more money next summer if he performs.  But have a feeling that BR wants the cash now.

[petecolonia]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

He did start to come onto a game towards the end of the season, but he didn't score enough goals.

These reports will not make AC feel at home here at all, so he won't start well - his confidence will be down again.

If his Liverpool future is dependent on a few soundbites in the public media then God help us all... he'd be daft to make anything of what's been said... and if he's going to be a success he believes in himself, regardless..

[Hazell]

Not sure what to make of this really. The main thing I guess is that we back whatever Rodgers wants and if he doesn't feel Carroll is good enough/the type of player who fits into what he wants to do then it's right to sell him. His fee can go towards getting better suited players in.

On the other hand, Carroll I feel will be a very good player and it slightly feels like we're getting of rid of him too early. This club has made a number of short sighted decisions in recent years - getting rid of Rafa, getting in Hodgson, getting rid of Kenny, getting rid of Insua, trying to get of Lucas, Joe Cole's transfer, Carroll's transfer and possibly many more - and this could be another. He's been inconsistent but he has showed on occasion what he can do and getting rid of him now doesn't seem the best move, particularly given the strikers we have.

But, it is Rodgers' decision and if he wants to get rid of him, then fair enough. We need to allow the manager to make these types of decisions.

[royhendo]

I already nailed my colours to the mast after the Italy game on this thread, so not surprised BR came out with these comments.

It's worth quoting in full Packalacky - a compelling read.

I hope and pray we do sell him, and before I get crucified (which I'm sure I will), here are the reasons.

I was reading the England match thread yesterday at the same time as watching the game and after around 30 minutes or so, England was putting a few decent crosses in the box and people were saying how Andy would score those instead of Wellbeck (shit) and Rooney. After Andy came on, those fast attacks and dangerous crosses stopped, and people were asking why we weren't crossing the ball more...

Well, lets have a quick look back at the game. The main reason why the crosses stopped going into the box was because Andy was still making his 10 minute journey from the midfield area towards the penalty box, where he could have been in position to head them in. He is the slowest player I have ever seen on the pitch, and I've been watching football for a while. I know there will be stats on how on training he's one of the fastest etc, but the training must take place on another universe because on the pitch, he just moves around like a tanker.

This is made worst by the fact that he stays back at corners, due to his size he's good at defending them. The problem is that at that point the ball goes forward and as soon as a counter attack begins, Andy is nowhere to be seen. I remember against Sweden when this scenario happened, and England were on a dangerous counter attack with Welbeck and Young approaching the opposition area, Carroll could be seen entering the centre circle spilling his guts to get forward, but it just wasn't enough, the chance was wasted by Young (surprise) and the move came to nothing. Time and time again moves break down and possession is lost because Andy is not in a position to be effective or to make himself available to a pass.

The second reason is that he simply lacks the basics to become a top striker. Simple things like passing the ball 5 meters, not under pressure, to an unmarked team mate, is above the abilities of Carroll. There was a moment yesterday where he got the ball on the left hand side of the pitch, and he started moving forward with it and then... he put it out of play. At that point I just laughed. I don't actually know what he was trying to do. Was it an attempted pass? A misplaced pass? A misshit while running with the ball? Only Andy knows for sure. His general passing yesterday was simply dire, he had a pass completion of 53%.

Which brings me to the type of football that our new manager wants to play. Rodgers worships possession football, with short passes at the heart of that system. For it to work we need a) players with intelligence and speed to make themselves available to the pass b) ability to actually pass a football to a team mate. To me Andy falls woefully short on both counts. No doubt people will say how it can be coached into him, but I very much doubt it, and even if it could, do we have the time to train Andy to be a top striker while we wail in 8th position while losing our other top players due to lack of CL football? Will Skertel, Agger, Lucas, Luis be happy to wait for Carroll to learn to pass a football? I'm not sure they are, specially when they are being tempted by oil money.

Others will say how Andy can be used as a plan "B", a battering Ram, a "Beast" so to speak. Well, lets look into that. Andy is at his most dangerous from free kicks. His size and strength are strong points which under the right system can be properly utilized. The problem I see with it is that it simply doesn't work against the top teams. Yesterday was the perfect example, time and time again the ball was lobbed forward, bypassing midfield, Carroll wins the header, and the flickon goes... out of play or to an opposition player. Top defenders adjust, and so that is what Italy did yesterday, after a while they weren't simply happy for Andy to jump for the ball on his own as it came to nothing. After a while, Andy had so much time that he could simply chest it down and then pass it... to an Italian player. There is this misconception that defenders fear playing against a big strong strikers... well maybe the shit ones. But against half decent centre halves Carroll is taken care of very easily as Italy showed yesterday (and they weren't top defenders). It's the skillfull strikers with quick movement and unpredictability that Centre halves fear. The Suarez and Silvas of this world, the types of players we should be going after.

Another thing is that "plan B" requires proper wingers delivering crosses into the box, it requires a change of system and to prioritise the importance of Carroll to the team. That means going out and spending even more money on players to suit Carrolls' play style. To me at least, that money should be used to build a team around our best player (Suarez in case anyone is wondering). "Plan B" to me is like Roy's England yesterday, playing with lots of team spirit and effort with 2 wingers raining crosses into the box for a powerful striker to head them in. To me it's a massive step back and a further derail of where we should be heading. The idea of the typical English number 9 is dead. It died with Alan Shearer.

There is no top team in world football that plays that way any more. It is still used by resilient and energetic teams like Stoke and England yesterday, but that's like going back in time. That is not where we, Liverpool FC want to end up, and it is not the way top players expect to play. All current top teams rely on either Speed or skillfull ball possession and I'm afraid Andy fills none of those roles.

I think we should be able to get around £10-15 Million for him. It's a massive loss to take, but one which needs to be taken if we want to move forward.

[Andy @ Allerton]

I already nailed my colours to the mast after the Italy game on this thread, so not surprised BR came out with these comments.

I opened that post with "I hope and pray we do sell him" and hopefully that will now happen, anything over £10 million should be accepted in my opinion.

As I pointed out, pass and movement are the key to BRs system and they are two things which Carroll is incapable of doing. If at 23 you are unable to pass a ball to a team mate 5 meters away, then I'd say it's a bit too late to learn. Add to that his non existent movement in the box, his lack of speed, skill or footballing brain, and you just have a very limited footballer that is good at flicking headers to the opposition. The type of football that would bring the best out of Carroll is something I hope we will never see at Anfield. He will do decently at Stoke or Allardyce's West Ham, and that is his level.

We need to build a team around our best player, Luis Suarez. Getting Borini and Dempsey in would be a good start. Players with good technical ability able to make lots of runs behind the last defenders. Watching Suarez getting a hat-trick last night just demonstrates what we have missed by focusing so much money and focus on trying to get the best out of Carroll. 

Fantastic plan. We have three recognised 'top' strikers. Carroll. Bellamy. Suarez (kind of).

We are in the League, The League Cup, The FA Cup and the Europa League.

That's a lot of games. And you want to sell one striker for peanuts (Ensuring that we can't use the money to buy a replacement) and we're getting in an average Italian striker (From all accounts) which would still leave us with three (Assuming we don't sell Bellamy as rumoured which would leave us with two recognised strikers).

Two or three strikers for all the competitions is nowhere near enough.

[swordfishtrombone]

"an average Italian striker (From all accounts)" - which accounts are those?

"And you want to sell one striker for peanuts (Ensuring that we can't use the money to buy a replacement)" - are you talking about Carroll here? Even in the worst case scenario we'd raise £10m as well as saving £4m on wages. That isn't peanuts. Its the difference between us buying one more squad player and someone who'll really make a difference to the first team