Topic: Carroll - A sensible discussion.

[underscored]

He still has time here. As long as Kenny says so, he has my full support. He just needs to find his form because at Newcastle he was a very good player and that was the reason he was capped for England.

[RogerSmith]

I don't think our supply is that bad, I think its just exaggerated when we play with a striker who depends on a crosses too much. When we play Kuyt and Suarez upfront, they drop deep, go wide and link up with the wide players. I think we need to stick to that style of play

We've got players (Johnson, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez) who thrive on pass-and-move and good, intelligent movement with quick passing and changing positions.

And we've got players (Gerrard, Adam, Downing, Henderson, Bellamy, Carroll) who are more suited to a more direct game aimed at one central striker.

But we're trying to blend the two, asking both sets to do something they're not particularly well suited to. We've got a clusterfuck of a formation and tactical set-up, with the idea being that it fits in the best aspects of both and the reality being that it doesn't help either.

Guess it depends what direction you want to go in. Or we could sign a few more of each type of player and play two completely different teams depending on opposition......

[the jesus]

We've got players (Johnson, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez) who thrive on pass-and-move and good, intelligent movement with quick passing and changing positions.

And we've got players (Gerrard, Adam, Downing, Henderson, Bellamy, Carroll) who are more suited to a more direct game aimed at one central striker.

But we're trying to blend the two, asking both sets to do something they're not particularly well suited to. We've got a clusterfuck of a formation and tactical set-up, with the idea being that it fits in the best aspects of both and the reality being that it doesn't help either.

Guess it depends what direction you want to go in. Or we could sign a few more of each type of player and play two completely different teams depending on opposition......

I think Bellamy,Gerrad and Henderson (given time) can play the style that saw us do so well at the back end of last season.

[hugoboss]

We've got players (Johnson, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez) who thrive on pass-and-move and good, intelligent movement with quick passing and changing positions.

And we've got players (Gerrard, Adam, Downing, Henderson, Bellamy, Carroll) who are more suited to a more direct game aimed at one central striker.

But we're trying to blend the two, asking both sets to do something they're not particularly well suited to. We've got a clusterfuck of a formation and tactical set-up, with the idea being that it fits in the best aspects of both and the reality being that it doesn't help either.

Guess it depends what direction you want to go in. Or we could sign a few more of each type of player and play two completely different teams depending on opposition......

Henderson isn't a direct player at all

[AJG]

I just don't see the potential some people see in Andy. I don't think he'll ever become the player we need him to be. Let him go to a midtable club who play direct football and he'll be a good player, nothing more nothing less. I'm not sure what he's ever done to convince people he's going to be a 'beast'

[Cpt_Reina]

Fucking hell 54 pages in 3 days.

If there was any doubt about Andy being pushed forward as the culprit of all our woes this has removed it.

[GrkStav]

Fucking hell 54 pages in 3 days.

If there was any doubt about Andy being pushed forward as the culprit of all our woes this has removed it.

What is the problem with lots of pages of discussion in a discussion forum?

[RogerSmith]

Fucking hell 54 pages in 3 days.

If there was any doubt about Andy being pushed forward as the culprit of all our woes this has removed it.

At least 5 of those pages are people saying how many pages there have been, and subsequent people saying why.

[Cpt_Reina]

What is the problem with lots of pages of discussion in a discussion forum?

Its more the sheer number in such a small space of time.

You dont see anywhere near the same amount of movement in other player threads. All of them are culpable. One of them is set upon.

[AJG]

Its more the sheer number in such a small space of time.

You dont see anywhere near the same amount of movement in other player threads. All of them are culpable. One of them is set upon.

None of the others cost £35m and have such divided opinion. I mean we all agree Adam and Downing are rubbish  .

[GrkStav]

Its more the sheer number in such a small space of time.

You dont see anywhere near the same amount of movement in other player threads. All of them are culpable. One of them is set upon.

Isn't that how it generally works? That the overall conversation ends up being in two or three "hot" threads at a time?

[RogerSmith]

Its more the sheer number in such a small space of time.

You dont see anywhere near the same amount of movement in other player threads. All of them are culpable. One of them is set upon.

Our last game, the only one we've played in over a week, was against Newcastle. It was Carrolls first return to Geordieland. You'd have a lot of posts anyway in the circumstances, but you then add in that we're in our worst league run for decades, Carroll wasted our best chance by diving when he had an open goal and he then got subbed and reacted poorly, surely you can see why there's more than a couple of pages?

[KirkVanHouten]

I don't think our supply is that bad, I think its just exaggerated when we play with a striker who depends on a crosses too much. When we play Kuyt and Suarez upfront, they drop deep, go wide and link up with the wide players. I think we need to stick to that style of play

Are you serious? Our crossing is absolutely atrocious and we do far less of it when Andy is on the pitch. How many times have you seen a cross go right over the box, too close to the keeper or fail to get past the first man? I would say 70-80% of our attempted crosses fall into this territory. This is because a lot of the time our players take too long to cross the ball and let the opposition defence get organised and into place which makes accurate crossing even harder. Then to top it all of when someone is in a crossing position Carroll is usually the only one in the box. We are obviously not a crossing team and I don't think we should force ourselves to become one but our supply is shite even to Suarez, who usually has to create his own chances.

[KirkVanHouten]

We've got players (Johnson, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez) who thrive on pass-and-move and good, intelligent movement with quick passing and changing positions.

And we've got players (Gerrard, Adam, Downing, Henderson, Bellamy, Carroll) who are more suited to a more direct game aimed at one central striker.

But we're trying to blend the two, asking both sets to do something they're not particularly well suited to. We've got a clusterfuck of a formation and tactical set-up, with the idea being that it fits in the best aspects of both and the reality being that it doesn't help either.

Guess it depends what direction you want to go in. Or we could sign a few more of each type of player and play two completely different teams depending on opposition......

Of all of our players Henderson would be the most suited to pass-and-move football IMO.

[Cpt_Reina]

Our last game, the only one we've played in over a week, was against Newcastle. It was Carrolls first return to Geordieland. You'd have a lot of posts anyway in the circumstances, but you then add in that we're in our worst league run for decades, Carroll wasted our best chance by diving when he had an open goal and he then got subbed and reacted poorly, surely you can see why there's more than a couple of pages?

Surely you can see the difference between a couple of pages and 54 in 3 days.

Anyway, Ill let you get back to it.

(Dont forget to mention how much he cost).

[GrkStav]

Surely you can see the difference between a couple of pages and 54 in 3 days.

Anyway, Ill let you get back to it.

(Dont forget to mention how much he cost).

So, you were trying to get people to stop posting comments and discussing, then?

He cost 35 million quid, all up front. Thought I'd humor you.

[Dubai_Red]

If we did decide to sell him this summer I think we'd get about £15 million.  Someone like Redknapp, O'Neill, maybe Fat Sam if West Ham get promoted or Pulis will fancy getting the best out of Carroll.  Carroll will probably suit a direct team like Stoke or the ones Fat Sam usually sets up - it might be best for all parties Carroll and us if he did move.

Sometimes if can be a case of good player, wrong club.

I am a big believer that most players need to be in the right league, right position, right tactics etc.  Not every player is like Gerrard who can play any position, in any brand of football and still thrive.  You wouldn't lump balls up to Defoe and expect him to win headers against centre backs etc.  Or you don't buy a player like Carroll and play him in a side that wants to play pass and move football.

My sentiments exactly!!!

[hugoboss]

Are you serious? Our crossing is absolutely atrocious and we do far less of it when Andy is on the pitch. How many times have you seen a cross go right over the box, too close to the keeper or fail to get past the first man? I would say 70-80% of our attempted crosses fall into this territory. This is because a lot of the time our players take too long to cross the ball and let the opposition defence get organised and into place which makes accurate crossing even harder. Then to top it all of when someone is in a crossing position Carroll is usually the only one in the box. We are obviously not a crossing team and I don't think we should force ourselves to become one but our supply is shite even to Suarez, who usually has to create his own chances.

Crosses are a means of supply not the only means, passing to strikers feet is also another way. When Suarez and Kuyt play they always seem to receive the ball in the final third and only when Carroll plays our poor crossing becomes an issue.

I've also seen Suarez and Kuyt miss several headers in the penalty box so like I said our crossing is not the best but that shouldn't stop us from creating chances and scoring goals.

[Calciotore]

OK - returning to the 'sensible' theme.

Rafa wanted Andy. Kenny wanted Andy. Enough to break the British transfer record for him.

Whatever anyone thinks he is now our player. And the way the deal was done means that a huge chunk of the money investedin him was in the transfer fee rather than the wages - ie - its already gone.

Given that we have - relatively recently - seen how unplayable he can be, the sensible thing to do would be to exhaust all possibilities to try and unlock that in him once again. If, after that process it turns out he is indeed not up to scratch we will have all have to take a financial hit and write it off as a poor decision by Kenny / Comolli.

So, putting all prejudices and agendas aside, how can we make this lad work in our team?

...not sure how we can turn his/our fortunes around.

If there is one person currently at LFC who knows what it takes to be a success at Anfield then surely it's Kenny,the person who signed him.

Baring in mind that Kenny sees him in training most of the week and has the ultimate say in who plays and who doesn't then why hasn't he started more matches than he has..?

Once the Carling Cup was won in February and European qualification guaranteed (and fourth place was still achievable) I assumed that the team/squad would have been given a real boost...but sadly the opposite is true,we've gotten a whole lot worse.This isn't Andy Carroll's fault but I can't help but think that he'd benefit more by playing in a team that's confident and scoring goals...

...just imaging if we won more games at Anfield this season like when we beat Everton,it was a pretty solid team effort and Andy Carroll played very well that night.Surely that would improve his confidence..?

It's puzzling to think that all season long whether he plays or not we haven't scored nearly enough goals to win matches.Sometimes when he's come off the bench he's had only 10 minutes to try and impress...how's that helpful to the lad..?

To sum up,I basically think that Kenny gave up on the lad months ago.Personally I think it's a shame and I'm very confused just why he hasn't been used as much as he could have been.

If we needed any further proof at all just how low his confidence is then look no further back than last Sunday when he dived for a penalty (which probably would have been taken by Gerrard) rather than staying on his feet and scoring..but with the potential of missing an open goal in front of 50,000 screaming Newcastle fans.

I'm struggling to see where he goes from here but the optimist in me dreams of him scoring a 89th minute winner in the FA Cup final...

...here's hoping.

[SuperCarroll9]

I'm sad to say, but having watched a number of the chav games this season their fans have been much more supportive and patient with Torres (who has actually performed far worse than Andy over the past 15 months)  than our fans have been with Carroll judging from here and the general atmosphere at the Liverpool games I have attended this season.

If we throw a hissy fit every time a new player makes a mistake or is slow to adapt they will never properly flourish here and as a result we will become less attractive to perspective new signings which is obviously to our detriment in the future.

[Bjinxi]

I'm sad to say, but having watched a number of the Chelsea games this season their fans have been much more supportive and patient with Torres (who has actually performed far worse than Andy over the past 15 months)  than our fans

to be honest I think although Torres hasnt scored for them, he did a lot more for Chelsea than Carroll did for Liverpool so far...
Of course people may think differently but everytime I watched chelsea Torres tracked back and made runs to at least create Space for other teammates... I havent seen it that much/often from Carroll

[Siannn.]

(who has actually performed far worse than Andy over the past 15 months)

Disagree.

[Matt8Pie]

I'm sad to say, but having watched a number of the Chelsea games this season their fans have been much more supportive and patient with Torres (who has actually performed far worse than Andy over the past 15 months)  than our fans have been with Carroll judging from here and the general atmosphere at the Liverpool games I have attended this season.

If we throw a hissy fit every time a new player makes a mistake or is slow to adapt they will never properly flourish here and as a result we will become less attractive to perspective new signings which is obviously to our detriment in the future.

Lol, no.

Their fans have been more supportive of him because he cost them £50million and he is a world class player underperforming. They were expecting him to hit the heights he hit with us immediately and he didn't, but every time he scores they cheer the loudest. It always seems to me though as if it's "YES OUR £50MILLION STRIKER WE GOT FROM THE SCOUSERS SCORED HAHAHAHAHA, IN YOUR FACE". They look stupid after boasting about buying him but him being shit so every time he scores, it's more of a "see I told you" kind of thing, in my opinion.

[isildurrr]

he has potential.i doubt he will reach it here though.

we will def be getting a forward in the summer who will be first choice.andy will get some games next season,hopefully build his value a bit and then we should let him go unless he does something special between now and then

[Stevie93]

(who has actually performed far worse than Andy over the past 15 months)

Torres has more combined goals and assists for Chelsea this season than Carroll, Henderson, Downing and Enrique put together.

"far worse".

[stevedo]

I'm sad to say, but having watched a number of the Chelsea games this season their fans have been much more supportive and patient with Torres (who has actually performed far worse than Andy over the past 15 months)  than our fans have been with Carroll judging from here and the general atmosphere at the Liverpool games I have attended this season.

If we throw a hissy fit every time a new player makes a mistake or is slow to adapt they will never properly flourish here and as a result we will become less attractive to perspective new signings which is obviously to our detriment in the future.

A rare nugget of commonsense. Prepare to be labelled a superfan. 

[NZ Red]

Anyone have a link to that article penned by Kenny, before he became our manager, in which he wrote glowingly about the long diagonal pass to Andy in the box for a header on goal or a knock down for another player to score?

Can't find the actual article, but pretty sure this is a diagram from the one you're referring to:



It's interesting, because Gerrard is the only one is the team who seems to play the kinds of early crosses to Carroll that Kenny's talking about here

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

People keep going on about Suarez's "sitter", i have no recollection of any "sitters" except Carroll's
 

one on one first minute Wigan, we could go back further!

I expected 60 pages by now your slipping lads!

[CANADAlglish]

[lfcshaunod]

I heard somewhere that we paid 35 million for him...

[liverpooll]

I heard somewhere that we paid 35 million for him...

Nope we never paid 35 million, it was Chelsea who paid 35 million to Newcastle, and 15M to us to get Torres.

[Bjinxi]

Can't find the actual article, but pretty sure this is a diagram from the one you're referring to:



It's interesting, because Gerrard is the only one is the team who seems to play the kinds of early crosses to Carroll that Kenny's talking about here

Well then it is even more depressing that Dalglish isnt able to get this system to work... (although I am no fan of this and rather we have a different kind of center forward)

[Irish Red Head]

What i seen him do against newcastle on sunday was the last straw he 100% could of stayed on his feet and smashed that ball home but he bottled it and took a dive didnt think much of him before that but that just done it for me he is utter rubbish...

[lfcshaunod]

What i seen him do against newcastle on sunday was the last straw he 100% could of stayed on his feet and smashed that ball home but he bottled it and took a dive didnt think much of him before that but that just done it for me he is utter rubbish...

I think Guitirrez might have got there after he rounded the keeper you know.

I know that doesnt mean he should take the dive like. But i dont think the chance would have been as clear cut as everyone has been making out.

[AJG]

Nope we never paid 35 million, it was Chelsea who paid 35 million to Newcastle, and 15M to us to get Torres.

Wrong. We paid Newcastle £35m. Chelsea paid us £50m at no point were Chelsea in negotiation with Newcastle to buy Andy Carrol for Liverpool.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

Wrong. We paid Newcastle £35m. Chelsea paid us £50m at no point were Chelsea in negotiation with Newcastle to buy Andy Carrol for Liverpool.

true but how does it look on an accounts sheet, money in and money out?

[shelovesyou]

Nope we never paid 35 million, it was Chelsea who paid 35 million to Newcastle, and 15M to us to get Torres.

Eases the pain a bit if that was true.

[stevedo]

What i seen him do against newcastle on sunday was the last straw he 100% could of stayed on his feet and smashed that ball home but he bottled it and took a dive didnt think much of him before that but that just done it for me he is utter rubbish...

And breathe.


Why was it the last straw? How did you feel the team played upto the Newcastle goal? How did you feel the team played afterwards? (Questions, questions, questions)

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

And breathe.


Why was it the last straw? How did you feel the team played upto the Newcastle goal? How did you feel the team played afterwards? (Questions, questions, questions)

if only these great supporters with the pitchforks watched it closely,  the silly sod did not dive he actually kicked the back of his own foot and fell over, but hey another lie to beat him with, supporters some of you lot dont know how to support your trousers, this would be about 25 if Adam was still playing!

[AJG]

true but how does it look on an accounts sheet, money in and money out?

Well I think we signed Andy just before Torres went so:

Money Out: £35m to Newcastle

Money In: £50m From Chelsea

Fuck it lets just say we've got 6 goals this season from someone who cost -£15m then. Absolute shitting bargain