Topic: Our Fundamental Problem

[belfast-connection]

Theres too many of our players wouldnt look out of place in a side thats midtable. Suarez would look out of place in a midtable side, as would Gerrard, Reina, Agger. Unfortunately we have a lot of dross in the side at the moment, whether they be British or not. Also, to have lost Lucas and not have any real backup in the squad was always going to be dangerous. I hope we can turn this around reasonably quickly.

well there's another possibility

i always had a theory that there was a general psychological malaise that set into the players around the time of rafa's last season

subsequent comments from torres and to a lesser extent mascherano sort of confirmed it for me - the players we had that summer - torres, alonso, mascherano in particular were in the 'world class' bracket - they were 'winners' who wanted to be winning things

they were however at a club that was showing no real ambition to win things - the clubs sole purpose was to survive sufficiently well to pay off the bank and continue paying off the bank

i got the idea that the players saw that there was no light at the end of the tunnell - they were at a club that in playing terms was not going forward, was at best stagnating and more likely was going backwards and these 'winners' could see that they were in danger of giving up the best years of their lives to a club that was not going to 'win' anything anymore

maybe that mindset seeped its way into the rest of squad and survives after the departure of torres and the others and the phlegmatism since january is a bit of a reaction to the failure to attempt to address obvious shortcomings in the squad in january

i think part of the carroll purchase was about sending a psychological message to fans and players that 'we are not defeated' by torres wanting out

but as time went on its become apparent that his shoulders weren't big enough to carry the hopes - maybe the players were expecting another striker and some cover for lucas to come in in january and the present malaise is another psychological reaction to that

[jolabode]

What like Suarez or Enrique?

Fact is they got some right wrong, some wrong and some we dont know yet.

If they dont back them then they are clearly replacing them and yay, more upheaval.

Enrique had a good start and I even wondered why he wasn't considered for Spain but with his performance lately, I can see why.


I agree with back or sack them which they'll have to do at the end of the season but I don't see why there should be any upheaval.  In my opinion, the longer this current management team is left in charge more ground will be lost to the teams above us.  Chelsea and Arsenal haven't been up to their usual standard this season but sadly we have gone further back away from them.

[koptician]

With the way things go over the years we probably won't even contact him...

How many times have we missed out on an obvious decent player with potential that some other PL team has bought for peanuts as no 1 else bid for him and turned out to be good...

Can't believe we never went for Valencia!

[Giono]

I agree that we might sign another young striker on the cheap this summer. However, with Kuyt turning 32 and Bellamy turning 33 this summer, I can't see Andy being the odd man out. I think that our fans should stop with this "cut our losses" stuff, because our losses with Andy would be at it's highest this summer. His price is at it's lowest at the moment, and it can only go up in the coming seasons. Please show some patience with our young players and justify the "most knowledgeable fans" tag.

Agree 100%. Yes, all our 4 big purchases were over-priced and have disappointed. They look lost and they lack confidence. But they didnt suddenly lose the value they had 1 year ago when they were playing with confidence for their old sides. Now is not the time to sell them and compound the misery by selling at a bargain basement price only to have them regain some of their old form and double in value.

It is up to Kenny to make them valuable players in his system of play or at least modest alternatives with some hint of value that other clubs may be interested in.

[Giono]

Do the stats on chances created properly reflect the quality of the chances that we create?

No. I think those stats are very misleading. Passing it around far from goal followed by a wild speculative shot from Charlie Adam is not a chance nor the creation of a chance.

[Giono]

I know he was coached at Newcastle but they can't be that bad, right?

The same coaching that beat us on Sunday.

[west_london_red]

Carroll Henderson Adam and Downing  all seem to lack that mental strength, there is a level of expectancy and pressure that comes with playing for our club. I dont think they had such levels at their previous clubs maybe im wrong but i dont think they can handle it

I was refering to the players we had before last summer, who have all been around the block having played in huge games. The likes of Carroll Henderson, Adam and Downing havent played at the highest level either due their age or the clubs they have played for in the past. The leadership and mental strength should be coming from the senior players (Gerrard, Kuyt, Reina etc) who were already here is what im saying.

[cornelius]

Unfortunately we have a lot of dross in the side at the moment

Not for the first time though. The 2005 squad was full of it too. It's more about what we haven't got than what we have. In the last 3 years Xabi Alonso, Javier Mascherano, Momo Sissoko, Alvaro Arbeloa, Fernando Torres, Yossi Benayoun, Alberto Aquilani, Raul Meireles and Rafa Benitez have all walked through the out door. That is a lot of quality to lose right there. We've lost at least one world class player a year and one world class manager. Alonso in 2009, Mascherano in 2010, Torres in 2011. Who's off next I wonder? Then when you consider how much time Lucas, Gerrard, Suarez and Agger have missed this season, it's little wonder we now find ourselves 8th in the table.

[dumbo]

Agree 100%. Yes, all our 4 big purchases were over-priced and have disappointed. They look lost and they lack confidence. But they didnt suddenly lose the value they had 1 year ago when they were playing with confidence for their old sides. Now is not the time to sell them and compound the misery by selling at a bargain basement price only to have them regain some of their old form and double in value.

Value is 'what someone is willing to pay for them', in our case that was 'far more than they were worth'.
In the case of Downing, imho a sensible fee is £7m.
Henderson/Carroll are maybe £10m a piece.  Young, English, talented, some in-game premiership experience and good performances - but still mostly unproven.
Adam is £4-7m due to age etc.

The main problem with selling those players is that we have inflated their wages - a new club would have to match those wages, and I doubt many would do that.

[sattapaal]

When I first read this thread, I was in denial. I idolise Gerrard, and I think we have some very strong personalities in our team.

But the longer this shit has gone on, the more I have succumbed to the theory that our on-pitch leadership has been gash.

Gerrard, Pepe, Suarez, Enrique, Carra havent shown enough strength to help us galvanise and get that little bit extra we need from the team to see us through. Are they all mentally tired? Have they all just given up on the league? Do they all just have an eye on the FA Cup?

I know I do. I don't want to see Kenny sacked, so I'm praying we win the FA Cup. For me, that's a successful season (2 Cups!? COME ON!). I don't care if we're 10th. Especially if we can play some of the youth players and give them some experience that they sorely need.

The good thing is, already this season, we've seen players like Shelvey, Spearing, Flanagan, Kelly and maybe Henderson too, showing some emerging determination and leadership themselves. The thing is, it hurts them to lose, and its hard for them to galvanize older players and get them moving. Especially from a goal or 2 down.

[Giono]

It's pretty difficult to have a coherent plan when you cannot score and have nobody in reserve that you can call on to address that problem.

Or it is difficult to score without a plan. We were scoring loads last half of last season. And the team was playing with confidence. So much confidence that we were starting teenagers and they had the same confidence.

Kenny has to find a way to score with his system. Or use the old tools at his disposal to find a different way to score and take the pressure off.

[Endoe]

well there's another possibility

i always had a theory that there was a general psychological malaise that set into the players around the time of rafa's last season

I remember at the time getting the feeling that the season before second place really hurt that squad, they felt they really gave it there best but it was a little short, then to sell players rather than reinforce really spelt the end for that squad to have the belief it takes to win a league campaign.

[Giono]

Value is 'what someone is willing to pay for them', in our case that was 'far more than they were worth'.
In the case of Downing, imho a sensible fee is £7m.
Henderson/Carroll are maybe £10m a piece.  Young, English, talented, some in-game premiership experience and good performances - but still mostly unproven.
Adam is £4-7m due to age etc.

The main problem with selling those players is that we have inflated their wages - a new club would have to match those wages, and I doubt many would do that.

Exactly. The math looks terrible. That makes me fear more that Henry will decide that Kenny gets more value from the investment or someone else. I don't think it will be easy to edit the squad.

[geoffstrong]

problem one.  Vital players missing all season for various reasons has Kenny ever played his best 11 this season?

problem two  Stevie not a CM never will be it harms the team and wastes his talent.

problem three Carroll wrong guy seems like square peg in our round hole set up, it has been tried and tested but now we need to have a re think. Maybe dont sell him but give sometime to develop his game in the ressies, money is paid so forget that.

problem four lack of confidence on the field leads to nervousness in the stands and this creates a team so eager to win a game that  they make fundamental errors on the pitch.

problem five needed a better back up for Lucas as good as Jay is he isn't good enough.

problem six new signings needing time especially the likes of Henderson and Jonjo but not given this time to settle.

problem seven signings that didn't work out so far, Adam and Downing, do we ditch Downing for the rest of the season?

Solution for me in the summer get another DM, get a clinical finisher, get another wide player or give Sterling greater responsibility, blend in more youngsters in an if they are good enough they are old enough ideology, worked before sadly.

The annoying thing is we have played some great football this season with no rewards at all.

[koptician]

It's pretty difficult to have a coherent plan when you cannot score and have nobody in reserve that you can call on to address that problem.

Think we might give Morgan a shot?

[koptician]

Or it is difficult to score without a plan. We were scoring loads last half of last season. And the team was playing with confidence. So much confidence that we were starting teenagers and they had the same confidence.

Kenny has to find a way to score with his system. Or use the old tools at his disposal to find a different way to score and take the pressure off.

We're missing two key components of what made it work:

1. Meireles (gone) and 2. Maxi (hardly plays).

[aoaaron]

our fundamental problem is kenny atm.

he can say all the best things he wants in the press.. i do love his comments and interviews... but on the pitch they're not doing the business.

its all good to say after the game the boys are frustrated. well as manager u should have sorted out that frustration before the game.

it seems to me he's way above any critique. look at when he subs players!! rafa used to sub bang on the 60/65 min mark and get SLATED SLATED... for them being too late.

kenny is clueless and subs when its wayyyyy too late and gets NOTHING.



even our revival last season to me was just kenny fixing hodgsons mess with the quality benitez had acquired + suarez.


in the market he spends around the 100M mark yet has no cover for lucas, no extra striker, no dynamic flair wing players, no replacement for gerrard (lol adam)...  relying on kelly (who to me looks more and more like a really good ball playing CB every game now playing out of position), spearing etc.

guthrie vs. spearing.. guthrie edges it but even guthrie was not deemed good enough for us by Rafa... kenny i think gets a bit too sentimental with a few of his choices and where he places his faith.

[Blade]

Exactly. The math looks terrible. That makes me fear more that Henry will decide that Kenny gets more value from the investment or someone else. I don't think it will be easy to edit the squad.

We don't need to edit the squad by selling some of our players. We need to add to the depth and to the quality of the squad. A top class central midfielder and an experienced prolific striker will make this team much better.

[flying red]

Theres too many of our players wouldnt look out of place in a side thats midtable. Suarez would look out of place in a midtable side, as would Gerrard, Reina, Agger.

I don't think Gerrard looked too out of place in our mid-table side yesterday.

[The G in Gerrard]

problem one.  Vital players missing all season for various reasons has Kenny ever played his best 11 this season?

problem two  Stevie not a CM never will be it harms the team and wastes his talent.

Your first two points, do we know what our best 11 is if everyone is fit? Secondly why do we persist with Gerrard in a CM position though? It's like Adam, he isn't a DM but we keep trying him in that position.

[BazC]

When I first read this thread, I was in denial. I idolise Gerrard, and I think we have some very strong personalities in our team.

But the longer this shit has gone on, the more I have succumbed to the theory that our on-pitch leadership has been gash.

On the field leadership has been largely non existent since we came 2nd. At least from the "captains". When Rafa was fighting the owners on one side, he was having to fight senior players on the other. Senior players who should have stepped up to the plate but didn't. It was pretty much at that point I realised we wouldn't win the league with Stevie as captain.

Pepe, Lucas, Agger- they stepped into the void admirably in the first half of this season and the last half of last season. Is it much of a coincidence that since they've dropped out the side due to injuries we've gotten worse and worse? Next game, we'll have all 3 of them out. Who are you backing to step in?

[flying red]

Your first two points, do we know what our best 11 is if everyone is fit? Secondly why do we persist with Gerrard in a CM position though? It's like Adam, he isn't a DM but we keep trying him in that position.

This old chestnut keeps coming round time and again. It used to be 'If Owen hadn't been injured' then 'When Stevie's fit again' and 'When we get Torres back'. It's all ifs, buts and maybes. Players get injured and miss games. No club can rely on its top players being available for every match. The challenge is building a squad that's resilient enough to dig out wins without the 'vital' players.

[Higgins79]

a starting 11 of reina, johnson, agger, skrtel, enrique, lucas, gerrard, downing, kuyt, bellamy and suarez would have been good enough to challenge the top 4 this season, though perhaps just falling short.

we have been unlucky with injuries this season, that is clear for all to see. Agger has missed games, johnson, gerrard and most importantly lucas. with those players fit and firing we are a good team. they are the backbone and our genuine quality. unfortunately despite huge investment you have to ask whether the squad players are really any better than the likes of babel, jovanovic, cole etc etc? I dont think they are.

spearing and adam are just not of the required standard. henderson and shelvey have potential but they shouldn't be regular starters. downing is inconsistent but i feel would be much better with better players around him. Kuyt is on the way down, and carra is done. Maxi?

carroll is such a problem. he seemed to be improving and then missed a few games and has been all over the shop since. do we play to his strengths? no. is he capable of adapting his game? we've seen little to suggest he can. but saying that, the supply to the front man be it carroll or suarez has been laughable since january. cross after cross, corner after corner wasted. nobody will commit from midfield so defenders can crowd out the strikers with relative ease.

since the injuries we have had to depend on the squad players players, and we have just not been good enough. the two players we would have expected to step up to the plate just haven't. have gerrard and suarez recognised that the league was finished and got their heads down concentrating on the cups? did they ever believe CL was possible? its a shit attitude but i think its happened to some degree. the evra episode has clearly effected suarez momentum and form and he's perhaps desperate for the season to end to draw a line under the whole affair. further, does anyone think gerrard has one eye on his international swan song at the euro's? scared to over commit in a failed league campaign for fear of another injury? either way its a while since one of those has grabbed a game by the scruff of the neck and made it happen.

one thing for sure, the players are letting kenny down.

however, its not just down to the players. are we playing off the cuff football or is there a plan? does the plan get forgotten as soon as we conceed? do the players know what their role is? none of the answers are clear from recent performances which is very worrying. exactly what have the coaching team been working on in recent weeks/months because there is nothing evident in the performances? away at newcastle after the wigan and qpr stinkers you might have expected us to keep it tight for an hour, chase them down and quiet the crowd. but we just seemed all over the shop. gave them too much space, played without any pattern or conviction and gave it up after we went behind.

it seems that there is something very wrong. we're relying on too many players not of the required standard. those players available that should be leading by example and stepping up are not performing. the fight and passion has gone. the tactics are not evident and the confidence is so brittle its not becoming of a liverpool team.

the end of the season can't come quickly enough. and when it does FSG have some big decisions to make. again.

[Discipline]

Gerrard's always been the sort of captain to lead by example. He has never been vocal... that was Jamie.

[geoffstrong]

Your first two points, do we know what our best 11 is if everyone is fit? Secondly why do we persist with Gerrard in a CM position though? It's like Adam, he isn't a DM but we keep trying him in that position.

I certainly think his best team contains Agger, Lucas, Suarez, Stevie, Reina, Glen, I am not sure if they have played one game together, I do agree about more quality depth needed.

 As for Stevie the problem is for me is he playing as a CM because Kenny wants this or because he does?

 For me he should be up with Suarez and Henderson CM with Jonjo on the right , if it works we get results if not Henderson and Jonjo get valuable experience for next season.

[geoffstrong]

Gerrard's always been the sort of captain to lead by example. He has never been vocal... that was Jamie.

Agreed but it falls down when his example is as bad as the rest like yesterday, we need a hard man as captain when it goes tits up.

[filopastry]

This old chestnut keeps coming round time and again. It used to be 'If Owen hadn't been injured' then 'When Stevie's fit again' and 'When we get Torres back'. It's all ifs, buts and maybes. Players get injured and miss games. No club can rely on its top players being available for every match. The challenge is building a squad that's resilient enough to dig out wins without the 'vital' players.

To be fair the Lucas injury has been a blow and he's someone who doesn't have much of an injury record, sadly though the issues caused by his absence have been as much due to the complete lack of adequate cover at that position as it has been caused by missing his excellent performances, and we knowingly went into this season with the issue of DM cover.

Apart from that we've not really had much injury bad luck, of course Agger, Johnson, Kelly and Gerrard have missed a lot of games but to be brutally honest based on what has happened over the last few seasons you'd expect that to be the case for all of those players, it actually feels like we've gotten more games out of Agger than we usually do, sad to say Gerrard hasn't really appeared to make much of a difference to the time since his return either.

We miss Agger hugely when he's out and in his absence at the moment I'd struggle to say that any of  the Goalkeeper, defensive unit, midfield or strikeforce are playing well.

Getting Lucas back should make a big difference to this team, if he is near 100%, and he'll help the players around him look better as Agger seems to, but in spite of that this is a team that looks like it has more holes to fill than we're going to be likely to do with a moderate transfer budget this summer.

[Rohit]

I certainly think his best team contains Agger, Lucas, Suarez, Stevie, Reina, Glen, I am not sure if they have played one game together, I do agree about more quality depth needed.

 As for Stevie the problem is for me is he playing as a CM because Kenny wants this or because he does?

 For me he should be up with Suarez and Henderson CM with Jonjo on the right , if it works we get results if not Henderson and Jonjo get valuable experience for next season.

Problem is where ever gerrard plays without the players behind being world beaters, he has next to zero trust in them and will natural drop off to try and get involved in the game. Its in his mentality and it just harms the team. He had that trust in mascherano and alonso and it took him seeing lucas from the sidelines to see just how good a player he became to have that trust in him.

[TimHocks]

It is wonderful having Kenny in charge.  We owe him for all the glories he has brought us.  This has been a really really odd season (although things seem to have been a little bit odd ever since the Sunderland beach ball incident!).  The loss of Lucas has been massive.

A season like this again will not be tolerated by FSG.  Probably not even a half season.

It is interesting where we will likely be finishing this season, in comparison to the leaders, 30 pts or more behind the Mancunian winners.

Reminds me of a time a few years back the last time that happened, and what we did to set it right.

Interesting reading this article (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/houllier-in-dignified-exit-after-sacking-by-liverpool-6169299.html) from May 2004.  Seems like a world ago...

"Where Liverpool are would satisfy the followers of all but three Premiership clubs. They finished fourth and will take part in the qualifying for the Champions' League. Yet in the context of Liverpool's former pre-eminence - their last title, in 1990, was their 13th in 26 years - many fans did not share Houllier's belief that trailing in 30 points behind Arsenal was 'a magnificent achievement'."

 

[scatman]

On the field leadership has been largely non existent since we came 2nd. At least from the "captains". When Rafa was fighting the owners on one side, he was having to fight senior players on the other. Senior players who should have stepped up to the plate but didn't. It was pretty much at that point I realised we wouldn't win the league with Stevie as captain.

Pepe, Lucas, Agger- they stepped into the void admirably in the first half of this season and the last half of last season. Is it much of a coincidence that since they've dropped out the side due to injuries we've gotten worse and worse? Next game, we'll have all 3 of them out. Who are you backing to step in?

Just mentioned the latter 3 and Skrtel in the post match thread, men who are willing to fight for the shirt and for their teammates...there is no one fucking else in the team who does that. Not the 2 captains nor any of the new signings.

[dkra2007]

A Cup win is in no way a measure of progress .... sorry, but neither is 2 cup wins unless it's along side a top 4 finish as the league position is the best reflection of a teams improvement or not ... Of course a CLUBS progress can be measured in a variety of ways and there is ample evidence of that.  Think is is very important to keep the on the pitch performance separate here as there are big changes that have and will increase the value of the club and the stadium issue is key to all that.

A club such as ours has taken far too much risk with Carroll, Henderson and Downing ... £65 million plus ... staggering when you consider how cheaper and better players could have been brought in .... non Brits but however you wrap this up it is failure ... add to that Adam (only 6 mill ish) and it reflects badly on this management team.

If we end up 7th or eighth does this mean its worse than last season ? ... as to make up ground its a bigger rebuilding job ... only we have blown the cash last summer ..

[The G in Gerrard]

I certainly think his best team contains Agger, Lucas, Suarez, Stevie, Reina, Glen, I am not sure if they have played one game together, I do agree about more quality depth needed.

 As for Stevie the problem is for me is he playing as a CM because Kenny wants this or because he does?

 For me he should be up with Suarez and Henderson CM with Jonjo on the right , if it works we get results if not Henderson and Jonjo get valuable experience for next season.

I still think we aren't sure of our best 11 (injuries aside), if everyone was fully fit, everyone would have different first 11's.

You're suggesting Stevie decides where he plays?

[Drinks Sangria]

Think we might give Morgan a shot?

Realistically, no. He's not yet a regular starter for the reserves so I doubt he'll be fast-tracked yet. Talented, but not ready.

[Bob Loblaw]

I've been thinking about not much else the last day and a bit. The more it all begins to unravel, we're such a mess, have made so many mistakes, and we still have all the problems from 18+ months ago really.

I want to see a clearer direction from the club going forward anyway. And if there's any of this unrest bollocks, sort it the fuck out, whoever is in charge has to be backed to the hilt when it comes to matters like that.

[El_Pistolero]

Think we might give Morgan a shot?

Don't be silly.

He's still in the U18s, he ain't ready.

[scatman]

I've been thinking about not much else the last day and a bit. The more it all begins to unravel, we're such a mess, have made so many mistakes, and we still have all the problems from 18+ months ago really.

I want to see a clearer direction from the club going forward anyway. And if there's any of this unrest bollocks, sort it the fuck out, whoever is in charge has to be backed to the hilt when it comes to matters like that.

It seems over the past decade some players have been backed over the manager, dressing room unrest etc. Kenny has to be backed to the hilt on this over anyone if there is this unrest bollocks

[doc_antonio]

Don't be silly.

He's still in the U18s, he ain't ready.

why? so is raheem... he had a good cameo against wigan...

[Hazell]

It seems over the past decade some players have been backed over the manager, dressing room unrest etc. Kenny has to be backed to the hilt on this over anyone if there is this unrest bollocks

Seems like that. Supporters can't be absolved of responsibility in that though.

[seal75]

our fundamental problem is kenny atm.

he can say all the best things he wants in the press.. i do love his comments and interviews... but on the pitch they're not doing the business.

its all good to say after the game the boys are frustrated. well as manager u should have sorted out that frustration before the game.

it seems to me he's way above any critique. look at when he subs players!! rafa used to sub bang on the 60/65 min mark and get SLATED SLATED... for them being too late.

kenny is clueless and subs when its wayyyyy too late and gets NOTHING.



even our revival last season to me was just kenny fixing hodgsons mess with the quality benitez had acquired + suarez.


in the market he spends around the 100M mark yet has no cover for lucas, no extra striker, no dynamic flair wing players, no replacement for gerrard (lol adam)...  relying on kelly (who to me looks more and more like a really good ball playing CB every game now playing out of position), spearing etc.

guthrie vs. spearing.. guthrie edges it but even guthrie was not deemed good enough for us by Rafa... kenny i think gets a bit too sentimental with a few of his choices and where he places his faith.

You can say everything you want but Kenny won't get the sack. At the end of the season, he may be asked to step down by the owners but he won't get the sack.
And as a proud man, if he is asked to step down then he will coz he's a proud man and he cares for the club. Hopefully, it's not the case.

[geoffstrong]

I still think we aren't sure of our best 11 (injuries aside), if everyone was fully fit, everyone would have different first 11's.

You're suggesting Stevie decides where he plays?

I am seriously not sure because it isn't working so why wouldn't Kenny change it? 

As for best 11 I think most of us would get at least 8-9 of them, Reina, Glen, Agger, Skrtel, Enrique,  * Lucas,  Bellamy, Stevie, Suarez *

if fit back 5 pick themselves, as does the other 4 for me, then we might quibble about who the other two are. how about you?