Topic: Our Fundamental Problem

[Fat Scouser]

There's no way on God's earth we can sell the lad. It's going to mean a massive loss of face and dough. We've got keep him for another at least another year. Hopefully in that time we'll get a better set up on the pitch and the lad will come good.

[Zeb]

Or play Carragher more. A whopping 66.6% of Carroll's goals for Liverpool have come when Carragher has been in the side.

The fact the defence is so deep creates space for Carroll to score. Or something.

There does seem to be a pattern with Carroll's appearances. 3 starts, 2 on the bench. Repeats all season. Being managed to prevent injury? Not random enough to be tactical? Shows up in his playing time too, 60% or thereabouts of all minutes to be played, he's played.

[Fromola]

In lamens terms our fundamental problem is that in 2010 certain people employed by LFC decided we had to go back to basics and be more English (4-4-2, English manager, no more zonal marking, Gerrard center mid, a buy English transfer policy). Two years and £130m later and this failed experiment has set us back 10 years on the pitch.

[Eeyore]

Most definitely. Without a proper midfield, we can never get the best out of our strikers.

The funny thing is people going on about how many times Carroll, Suarez and Gerrard have played together when the only player who could make that work for me is Lucas who I am pretty sure has never started a game with the three of them. If you play with two Strikers then you end up a man short in central midfield Lucas is the only player we have got who can address that. Even then you need two centre backs who are comfortable being left one on one with their Striker so you can push the full backs up and try and gain parity in the middle of the park.

[Rohit]

But that's the basis of the argument for why he can still work. I know injuries will happen every season. But, in my opinion, get Lucas back in the middle doing the dirty work, play Gerrard and Suarez just behind Carroll and we could be in business. I know it's been frustrating this season, hopes constantly raised and dashed but we really haven't had enough time to judge how that formation could work.
Gerrard, sadly, isn't the player he was. I know the Stevie lovers will jump all over that as my dislike of the lad making me biased. But a blind man on a fast horse can see it. The lad isn't going to be able to boss the middle of the park and make them gut busting runs. If we keep playing him there, he'll end up injured more than not. But he can still pull that magic out the hat. He can have a great end to his career, if he just starts to realise he needs to adjust his game a bit.

He could work mate when you put it like that but alot of it comes down to andys own application. He just seems to lack that desire and hunger he had in his home town team compared to us. I don't see him being sold to be honest as we would take a hefty hit regardless and I don't many teams would want him. But carroll seems to be suffering from alot of the same problems our other signings are and that is the beast that is liverpool and the expectation that comes with playing with this club. But I personally don't think carroll has the tools right now to become that 20+ goal season striker we need.

Regards with steven, I've spoken with Al at length about him and I personally think he could have been a much better player he has been with us if had been played in his best position all his career. Central midfield it ain't and it shouldn't be now more than ever especially with the energy levels needed to play that position. He should have been playing as a number 10 for along than he did, in the dalglish position, just focusing on creating for others rather than the roy of rovers bollocks he liked to protray. It's down to kenny now to play his best players in his best positions to find the philosphy to take this club and team forward. He should be afforded that much time the very least to get us on the right tracks. One thing I do think ruined kenny's plans for the season was the injury to arguably to his most important player in lucas. The team currently lacks its steering wheel and he was that.

[Blade]

Or play Carragher more. A whopping 66.6% of Carroll's goals for Liverpool have come when Carragher has been in the side.

Nah, his delivery is too erratic. I wouldn't mind Joey Barton, though.

[Saul Goodman]

Or play Carragher more. A whopping 66.6% of Carroll's goals for Liverpool have come when Carragher has been in the side.

The fact the defence is so deep creates space for Carroll to score. Or something.

 

We have a higher win % this season without Gerrard than with him in the side. We need to stop playing him FACT!

[Blade]

The funny thing is people going on about how many times Carroll, Suarez and Gerrard have played together when the only player who could make that work for me is Lucas who I am pretty sure has never started a game with the three of them. If you play with two Strikers then you end up a man short in central midfield Lucas is the only player we have got who can address that. Even then you need two centre backs who are comfortable being left one on one with their Striker so you can push the full backs up and try and gain parity in the middle of the park.

An accurate observation.

[Fat Scouser]

Well, just in answer to them 2 posts, I've said it all season... Lucas is needed back in front of the back 4, Suarez and Gerrard need to be just behind Carroll. It's the only way I see it working, but then I'm not Dalglish.

[Fromola]

The funny thing is people going on about how many times Carroll, Suarez and Gerrard have played together when the only player who could make that work for me is Lucas who I am pretty sure has never started a game with the three of them. If you play with two Strikers then you end up a man short in central midfield Lucas is the only player we have got who can address that. Even then you need two centre backs who are comfortable being left one on one with their Striker so you can push the full backs up and try and gain parity in the middle of the park.

It depends on the formation. 4-2-3-1 you could have Carroll up top and Suarez, Gerrard and another in behind with Lucas and another (Spearing, maybe Henderson or a new signing) sitting and protecting the back four. Or you could have the three up top in a 4-3-3.

In the current formation Gerrard plays deep and comes deep looking for the ball (taking it off defenders toes even), Carroll's average position is almost the halfway line, and Suarez comes deep looking for the ball a lot. You can't play them as an attacking triumvirate in a 4-4-2.

[Blade]

We have a higher win % this season without Gerrard than with him in the side. We need to stop playing him FACT!

Well, we definitely need to stop playing him where he is playing now. Since his introduction to our central midfield, our success rate has dropped significantly. I assume you were talking about this.

[Gravy]

We need a team of consistent winners. Winners that have the mentality to win the league, and not just the big games. We haven't got that

[Fat Scouser]

winning breeds a winning mentality mate. Get the FA Cup, get them all fit for next season, get a a bit of quality in, get a decent start next season... know it's been said for years, but it's the truth.

[Red number seven]

Well, just in answer to them 2 posts, I've said it all season... Lucas is needed back in front of the back 4, Suarez and Gerrard need to be just behind Carroll. It's the only way I see it working, but then I'm not Dalglish.

You, are however, spot on. The loss of Lucas this season has been massively detrimental.

The biggest difference between Hodgson and Kenny was the committment of men forwards and this resulted in better attacking play and goals. At the beginning of the season we were playing positive football and committing men forwards. I believe we have overcompensated for the loss of Lucas' defensive presence and it is now rare to see 2 or more players hitting the 6 yard box in open play.

[Saul Goodman]

Well, we definitely need to stop playing him where he is playing now. Since his introduction to our central midfield, our success rate has dropped significantly. I assume you were talking about this.

No I am talking about how FACTS don't actually show you what is going on.

[Eeyore]

Well, just in answer to them 2 posts, I've said it all season... Lucas is needed back in front of the back 4, Suarez and Gerrard need to be just behind Carroll. It's the only way I see it working, but then I'm not Dalglish.

El Tel's famous Xmas tree formation, it's certainly got it's merits.

Henderson/Lucas and another as a three with Suarez and Gerrard in behind Carroll. Allow Enrique and Johnson to provide the width. The problem for me with that or Kev's 4-3-3 in the OP is what do we do with the 4-2-3-1 blueprint that is being used at all levels of the Club bar the first team.

[Twelfth Man]

It depends on the formation. 4-2-3-1 you could have Carroll up top and Suarez, Gerrard and another in behind with Lucas and another (Spearing, maybe Henderson or a new signing) sitting and protecting the back four. Or you could have the three up top in a 4-3-3.

In the current formation Gerrard plays deep and comes deep looking for the ball (taking it off defenders toes even), Carroll's average position is almost the halfway line, and Suarez comes deep looking for the ball a lot. You can't play them as an attacking triumvirate in a 4-4-2.

His loss has been immense. So cruel, was in the best of form, to get injured so badly by something so innocuous. We all marvelled at his work-rate and intelligence. Whether it is 442 or 443 Lucas is key to making either system work. Goes back to my thread about game intelligence, making the right decisions consistently, dictating tempo, he just did it without people (like me) even noticing. Losing that nous in the centre of the park has been huge. Being so over-reliant on him is not that good either mind.

[Cid]

So how much do you suggest we take for Carroll? How muc  do we spend on Crouch? What do we do if Crouch comes back and has another run of games without scoring? Maybe we could go for Roger Hunt? He's available. He wouldn't cost much. He could probably still knock the odd goal in and, with a bit of luck, he might still be happy to earn his old wages.

I'd take 15 for Carroll, I'd pay 10 for crouch.  Whether he scores or not crouch has good movement, hold up play and technique, three things Carroll lacks almost entirely.

[Blade]

No I am talking about how FACTS don't actually show you what is going on.

But, in that example that you have suggested, they very much do.

[Fat Scouser]

To be honest, I still miss the high tempo pressing game Rafa got us playing. It wasn't exactly beautiful pass and move but I hadn't enjoyed watching us as much in years. Seeing us bully and harry the likes of Barcelona, Real and the other lot down the road was fantastic. But there's no point in crying over spilt milk. I just wish we'd stop shooting ourselves in the foot though.

[Rohit]

El Tel's famous Xmas tree formation, it's certainly got it's merits.

Henderson/Lucas and another as a three with Suarez and Gerrard in behind Carroll. Allow Enrique and Johnson to provide the width. The problem for me with that or Kev's 4-3-3 in the OP is what do we do with the 4-2-3-1 blueprint that is being used at all levels of the Club bar the first team.

Could play a 4-2-3-1 with gerrard behind the striker and suarez coming off the right like he did at ajax. Real madrid did it yesterday, they played a 4-2-3-1 with 3 out and out strikers in higuain, benzema and ronaldo and they still had enough width from the fullbacks for it too work.

[Rohit]

To be honest, I still miss the high tempo pressing game Rafa got us playing. It wasn't exactly beautiful pass and move but I hadn't enjoyed watching us as much in years. Seeing us bully and harry the likes of Barcelona, Real and the other lot down the road was fantastic. But there's no point in crying over spilt milk. I just wish we'd stop shooting ourselves in the foot though.

The constant changing of philosphy and manager is why we sit behind the likes of united and arsenal. One way of playing and its brought them longevity and a sustained period of success.

[Eeyore]

It depends on the formation. 4-2-3-1 you could have Carroll up top and Suarez, Gerrard and another in behind with Lucas and another (Spearing, maybe Henderson or a new signing) sitting and protecting the back four. Or you could have the three up top in a 4-3-3.

In the current formation Gerrard plays deep and comes deep looking for the ball (taking it off defenders toes even), Carroll's average position is almost the halfway line, and Suarez comes deep looking for the ball a lot. You can't play them as an attacking triumvirate in a 4-4-2.

Wigan was a perfect example of people coming looking for the ball but that tends to happen when you have too many English players in the side. As a footballing nation we always lack patience and faith in our team mates ability to get the ball to us so we end up going looking for it. At the moment we have too many players who are far better on the ball than off it. Whereas last season we were regularly playing with Suarez, Maxi, Meireles and Kuyt players brought up in more patient Leagues were movement off the ball is far more highly valued than it is in our game.

A good example is Rooney who has improved as a player the less mindless tracking back he has done. What is the point of winning it in the left back position if there is no one in space to give it to. We need to smarten up and the players need to trust each other more when you don't trust your team mates you stop making the runs off the ball that open teams up. The lack of bodies in the box is a perfect example.

[Cid]

The problem is we've got a squad of players completely unsuitable for this 4-4-2 anachronistic nonsense.

Gerrard, Adam, Kuyt, Maxi, Shelvey and Suarez are all attacking-midfielders/forwards not cut out for 4-4-2. They should all be in the 3 of a 4-2-3-1 played behind a striker. The only attacking players in the whole club who can play 4-4-2 are Downing and Carroll. Instead we've got Gerrard and Adam centre mid all the time when neither can defend, hold position or track runners. Maxi and Shelvey unable to get a game. Suarez played up front rather than off a striker. Kuyt up front, or wide right, rather than more between the lines.

Why has this shift from the 4-2-3-1 occured? And where has this English-is-best nonsense reared its ugly head from? Spain won the World Cup in 2010 whilst England were comprehensively embarrassed on the world stage yet again. So what do we do that summer? Have every Spanish player on a list to be sold because we need to be more English. Sack all the Spanish coaches and employ Englich ones because we need to be more English. Sign English players because we need to be more English. Change Reina into an English goalkeeper because we need to be more English. Go back to 4-4-2 with Gerrard centre mid because we need to be more English.

Kenny changed this philosophy when he took over from Hodgson and now this season he's given in again. Why?

This has raised its head since before Hodgson.  Remember Barry?  I recall Rafa saying certain people wanted Owen back...I suspect an influential player or two has influenced our approach in recent years...perhaps Gerrard, likely Carra.

[Fat Scouser]

I'd take 15 for Carroll, I'd pay 10 for crouch.  Whether he scores or not crouch has good movement, hold up play and technique, three things Carroll lacks almost entirely.

I was sarcastic with you, but the point is... it's just not going to happen is it mate? It would be a massive climb down by the club and loss of face. The only it could possibly happen is Carroll putting in a transfer request but who's going to pay that for him and his wages?
Nah. None starter, all we can do is percivier and try to get the best out of the lad.

[Blade]

The constant changing of philosphy and manager is why we sit behind the likes of united and arsenal. One way of playing and its brought them longevity and a sustained period of success.

You mean, like we've had the same philosophy from 1959 until 1991?

[Fat Scouser]

The constant changing of philosphy and manager is why we sit behind the likes of united and arsenal. One way of playing and its brought them longevity and a sustained period of success.

Honestly mate, you can look at me posts before Hodgson came in right up until now... I've done nothing but preach stability and patience. I'm far from clever, but I've been around a while. I know what all dominant teams have in common... stability.

[Saul Goodman]

In that example that you have suggested, they very much do.

So you think that fact shows that in the same time period Gerrard has played most of his games. Suarez has been suspended, we lost Lucas and Agger has been injured. No what that stat shows in your head is that Gerrard is a poor CM which is completely retarded. That requires far deeper analysis. Most sides won't even require him to be a worldclass CM.

[Mutton Geoff]

In lamens terms our fundamental problem is that in 2010 certain people employed by LFC decided we had to go back to basics and be more English (4-4-2, English manager, no more zonal marking, Gerrard center mid, a buy English transfer policy). Two years and £130m later and this failed experiment has set us back 10 years on the pitch.

interesting post in so many ways but  were do you get the set us back 10 years , 10 years from what?

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

To be honest, I still miss the high tempo pressing game Rafa got us playing. It wasn't exactly beautiful pass and move but I hadn't enjoyed watching us as much in years. Seeing us bully and harry the likes of Barcelona, Real and the other lot down the road was fantastic. But there's no point in crying over spilt milk. I just wish we'd stop shooting ourselves in the foot though.

The pressing at times now is shocking. Whether it's a tactical decison to stand off more or that the players on the field are not capable of it i'm not 100% sure. I suspect its a bit of both.

Rafa's pressing game was a joy, it filled me with passion personally. We used to come out like wild wolves with the discipline of collie's. It was an art.

There have been many times this season when we have seemed to just sit back and take a beating for a period of time. That must be tactical.  Some people have suggested that this is down to Clarke. I'm not sure but it needs to stop.

Rafa would also been furious with the way we give away the ball. Our ball retention is shocking, and in my view our two best players are the main culprits, Stevie and suarez.

I am positive come next season we will be better as beyond the doom we are actually playing some nice stuff, and our major flaws are obvious and can be put right.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

. One thing I do think ruined kenny's plans for the season was the injury to arguably to his most important player in lucas. The team currently lacks its steering wheel and he was that.

I've been harping on about that in this thread for a bit. Losing Lucas killed us dead in the league. Yeah we had a few herculean efforts in the CC to win us it and to get us to the semi of the FA cup, but in the league since he's been out of action we've been fucking shit bar the arsenal game at home.

If FSG aren't going to give us cash (this is hypothetical) to cover a few positions, then I honestly think the place we need to spend any money we do get is for someone to play alongside Lucas who can properly cover him should he get injured. As for Gerrard, he shouldn't be anywhere near the CM position for us ever again to be honest. I'd play him on the right of the 442 if we play it, or the right of the 4231, but not in the center. His discipline to play there has gone, and he never had very much to begin with. Yes he's a legend for us and one of our best ever players, but at the moment, like Carra at the back, he's a liability in the position he's being played. Watch the wigan game again, and especially when they've got their foothold in the second half and look at the positional play, closing down and tackling that Gerrard does. He might as well not be on the pitch. Which is why we were so, so bad playing him and Adam as a central 2 at times this season because they're both shite at it.

I've said before that CM has been a massive, massive failing for us this season and to me it is our fundamental problem. Next season, if there's no money given to us to strengthen there it should only ever be Lucas and Spearing, Lucas and Henderson or Spearing and Henderson. The other 2 can be given other roles in the team where their deficiencies don't cost us goal after goal.

[Cid]

To be honest, I still miss the high tempo pressing game Rafa got us playing. It wasn't exactly beautiful pass and move but I hadn't enjoyed watching us as much in years. Seeing us bully and harry the likes of Barcelona, Real and the other lot down the road was fantastic. But there's no point in crying over spilt milk. I just wish we'd stop shooting ourselves in the foot though.

I reckon a lot of that had to do with player attitudes though.  Rafa was notorious for signing other club's captains as they were more likely to step up and take personal responsibility.  By signing on statistics and form we have ended up with some real half hearted tarts.

[Fat Scouser]

Wigan was a perfect example of people coming looking for the ball but that tends to happen when you have too many English players in the side.

I think our league demands that sort of blood and guts commitment though Al. Then you get teams like Stoke getting some sucess with it, so it goes on and on. More smaller teams like Swansea getting some success might change it, but it's what most punters demand. So, I reckon we're stuck with it.

[Fromola]

interesting post in so many ways but  were do you get the set us back 10 years , 10 years from what?

Because we're almost back to where we started when Gerrard Houllier first took over. 7th in the league, a weak-minded team and at a crossroads about where we want to go as a team.

Does anyone know what the plan is gonig forward into next season in terms of formation and a style of play?

[Fat Scouser]

The pressing at times now is shocking. Whether it's a tactical decison to stand off more or that the players on the field are not capable of it i'm not 100% sure. I suspect its a bit of both.

I was never so depressed as watching us play City in the semi finals, the way we hung on at their gaff was quite embarrassing.

[Mutton Geoff]

Because we're almost back to where we started when Gerrard Houllier first took over. 7th in the league, a weak-minded team and at a crossroads about where we want to go as a team.

Does anyone know what the plan is gonig forward into next season in terms of formation and a style of play?

Ah ok just wondered who you were referencing , funny enough just started reading Didi's book and he has some good things to add about this time!
I dont think we are quite as bad as the spice boys though!

[steveeastend]

A lot of great posts and opinions and it´s a joy to have this debate in an open way..

The summer will be crucial and we have absolutely no room for mistakes (anymore) which is never a good thing.

In my opinion we could turn it around by signing a couple of top players while still keeping the current squad but for a couple of reasons I don´t see this happening. I have a bad feeling, I hope I am wrong...

[Brentieke]

I was never so depressed as watching us play City in the semi finals, the way we hung on at their gaff was quite embarrassing.

We'd done that quite a few times under both Rafa and GH. Wasnt anything new.

[Fromola]

Ah ok just wondered who you were referencing , funny enough just started reading Didi's book and he has some good things to add about this time!
I dont think we are quite as bad as the spice boys though!

Not with the attitude of the players, but the mentality isn't much better. Players like Downing and Henderson mentality wise are too reminiscent of players we had in the 90s when United were sweeping up signing characters like Roy Keane.

As someone else said we've not got enough winners in the team. Agger and Lucas are two of the biggest and that's another reason why they're so missed. We wouldn't be throwing 2 goal leads away to piss-poor teams if we had a few winners in the team. Even Skrtel seems to need Agger alongside him to project that mentality.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

While I don't see them doing that either, I do think if Kenny/Comolli made a case for dishing out 35/40m for a player they really needed, I think they would happily open the cheque book.

Carroll