Topic: Our Fundamental Problem

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

1. lack of "support and belive" spirit from fans - players.
2. big amount of "instant success or get out" fans
3. media approach
4. ourselfs on pitch, lack of winning mentality approaching smaller teams and consistence.

Agreed on all four!

[BEAST]

The striker and advanced midfielder will also have different roles. The wide men will have less to adapt but a wideman in a 4-2-3-1 will have be more attacking, so much so that it can easily more into a more traditional 4-3-3. With one man less in midfield, a wide man in a 4-4-2 has more defensive duties

You didn't answer my question.

Players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, etc have been developed to play in a 442 out wide.

Are you telling me they wouldn't be effective in a 4231?

[aka_da_saus]

Saturday's game exemplified neatly the key problem that the management team need to address in the summer and our listless display gave me ample time to sit in my seat pondering it.  So ignoring all the puff about positions where we need to strengthen, motivation, cup versus league etc etc lets take a look at the one thing that we need to sort out before we do anything else.


The essential problem we have is that the team is far better suited to the 4-3-3 system that we started with.  I actually thought we started really brightly with Gerrard and Henderson swapping very fluidly and getting forward to support the front three of Suarez, Kuyt and Downing. The problem is that we never had a player at the apex of that front three so we could create loads of great attacking positions but there was never anyone in the box to complete the move. 


Now we did have a striker on the bench, the problem is he seems to be entirely unsuited to playing in a 4-3-3.  He does not seem to have the invention to link up with two close strikers and lacks the killer instinct to continually attack the six yard box.  He seems to prefer instead to attacked whipped in balls from the flanks or to pull back to the edge of the penalty area awaiting a cut back.  The problem is that in a 4-3-3 he will not get a lot of the former and it is a system that needs him to drag defenders towards the goal so that his flanking strikers or the supporting midfielders can take up his preferred position in the D.


So, whenever we bring him on we tend to revert to 4-4-2, a formation that suits him better.  It is also unfortunately a formation that does not suit most of his teammates.  Suarez is wasted chasing flick ons.  Our midfielders, without Lucas, get overrun when playing as a two, with the exception of Downing there is nobody really providing width or the sort of balls into the box that Carroll needs.


Until they address that conundrum there is little point making decisions on players to bring in, as the type of player we need depends on which system we plump for.

totally agree iv been of same opinion..we've the midfield players to play 4 3 3 but it doesnt suit carroll... we need someone to play as central striker in the 3 with the right characteristics..would like suarez giving the right sided role he was supposedly at he's best with ajax..even 4 3 3 only hope getting something out of adam

[Fordy]

There's only one way he'll get any better at that stuff, and that's by playing games.

He needs minutes on the pitch to learn, or re-learn, how to be a goalscorer.

His general play isn't a problem. He links up with those around him perfectly well and we're even able to inject a bit more tempo in to our game with him in the team imo. People run off him and it makes us much more dynamic.

But he's not got the cutting edge. And he wont get it until he's put in the team for a run of games that isnt interrupted every 3 matches.

Disagree totally.

Read the VDM post again. We can't play with Carroll - so giving him a run of games is totally pointless.

It's an expensive mistake that we need to address in the summer. I would sell him myself.

[Giono]

There is another, more long term problem with that. That system was set in place during Rafa's time, and obviously hasn't been tampered with since Comolli came in. To really see the academy bear fruit the first team and youth teams must play with the same style similar to what Barcelona do. Basically, the academy is developing players for a 4-2-3-1, only to get to the first team and play 4-4-2. The roles of the front 6 vary significantly between these 2 formations.

I was thinking that when Sterling came on. He was replacing Downing who was playing as a conventional winger. Sterling added some attacking flair to our side, but it wasn't from deep. He played high up the pitch.

[MolbyLovesGravy]

I think our fundemental problem is we fall behind, at home, against Wigan, and the players seem to give up hope. It wasn't just the loss, it was the lack of belief that we can rescue a fucking one goal defecit at Anfield against a relegation threatened team.
Every team, even the very best, lose games they should win comfortably. But they lose trying to change the result right up to the last kick. How many of our players were doing that?

[Gnurglan]

The fundemenatal problem is that we spent absolute fortunes in the Summer on players with the wrong mentality to get the best out of the wrong player in our squad.

The sooner we accept this fact, the sooner we can move on to rectifiying our mistakes and start buying players with te right mentality to get the best ouf the right player in our squad.

Meaning: Carroll and the 3 other Brits of the Apocalypse out, and winners capable of getting the best out of Luis in.

Agree.

The cold, harsh truth is our players are not good enough. And for a few reasons, those four signings are a big piece of the problem.

The other part of it is that (mainly because of those four) we need to squeeze players in. We can try to find a system, but we're shifting the problem. We have, or should have, a system. Our new signings should fit in. There are a number of ways to tweak a system, like 4-2-3-1, so the real issue is we don't have good enough players. And key components don't fit together. 

[Cpt_Reina]

Disagree totally.

Read the VDM post again. We can't play with Carroll - so giving him a run of games is totally pointless.

It's an expensive mistake that we need to address in the summer. I would sell him myself.

We can play with Carroll.

Or record with him in the team shows we can.

We beat Man Utd, Man City, and Chelsea this season playing with Carroll.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

Ok so Kenny builds a team around Suarez an first month he has a season ending injury what then?

You never build any team around one player with the exception of perhaps Messi but even Barca don't do that, you build a team in which Suarez is one of the components!

[Rohit]

We can play with Carroll.

Or record with him in the team shows we can.

We beat Man Utd, Man City, and Chelsea this season playing with Carroll.

We can play with him but he is rarely a threat himself mate, as his movement is poor or non existant or lacks the drive to make a run in the box after laying it off.

[Giono]

meh that's stretching it a bit.  A wide player who has the ability to cut in and shoot in the 442 should still be effective in a 4231.  I mean do you think players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, Young, Ben Arfa, etc who are ripping it up playing in a 442 can't play up front in a 4231?  If you need to you could put them on the wrong wing so that they are forced to cut in a lot more as well.

Would totally agree with the "2" being completely different roles than a box to box 442 midfielder.

But if the 2 in the middle are different, then the roles out wide are different too. in a 4-2-3-1 there is less need to defend from a player on the wing as the 2 middies support the wingbacks.

For example, I think Downing could be more suited ton a 4-2-3-1 than 4-4-2.

[The G in Gerrard]

Disagree totally.

Read the VDM post again. We can't play with Carroll - so giving him a run of games is totally pointless.

It's an expensive mistake that we need to address in the summer. I would sell him myself.

We can play with Carroll, we can't get a system that gets the best out of him.

If we were to sell as you suggest then your saying the same for Downing and Adam?

[Cpt_Reina]

Ok so Kenny builds a team around Suarez an first month he has a season ending injury what then?

You never build any team around one player with the exception of perhaps Messi but even Barca don't do that, you build a team in which Suarez is one of the components!

Exactly.

We built a team around Torres, and what happened when he was injured? We were fucking shite.

We couldn't have a decent back up because when Torres was fit they wouldn't get a look in. And no decent player would be willing to do that.

[Blade]

Saturday's game exemplified neatly the key problem that the management team need to address in the summer and our listless display gave me ample time to sit in my seat pondering it.  So ignoring all the puff about positions where we need to strengthen, motivation, cup versus league etc etc lets take a look at the one thing that we need to sort out before we do anything else.


The essential problem we have is that the team is far better suited to the 4-3-3 system that we started with.  I actually thought we started really brightly with Gerrard and Henderson swapping very fluidly and getting forward to support the front three of Suarez, Kuyt and Downing. The problem is that we never had a player at the apex of that front three so we could create loads of great attacking positions but there was never anyone in the box to complete the move. 


Now we did have a striker on the bench, the problem is he seems to be entirely unsuited to playing in a 4-3-3.  He does not seem to have the invention to link up with two close strikers and lacks the killer instinct to continually attack the six yard box.  He seems to prefer instead to attacked whipped in balls from the flanks or to pull back to the edge of the penalty area awaiting a cut back.  The problem is that in a 4-3-3 he will not get a lot of the former and it is a system that needs him to drag defenders towards the goal so that his flanking strikers or the supporting midfielders can take up his preferred position in the D.


So, whenever we bring him on we tend to revert to 4-4-2, a formation that suits him better.  It is also unfortunately a formation that does not suit most of his teammates.  Suarez is wasted chasing flick ons.  Our midfielders, without Lucas, get overrun when playing as a two, with the exception of Downing there is nobody really providing width or the sort of balls into the box that Carroll needs.


Until they address that conundrum there is little point making decisions on players to bring in, as the type of player we need depends on which system we plump for.

I was looking forward to this thread by VdM, since he has announced it in the post-game thread yesterday. There are couple of things that I would like to address: First, we have been winning the majority of our games when Andy Carroll is starting for us, and second, he is obviously not fitting well in the 4-3-3 system that apparently suits most of our players, yet it isn't getting us any results.

In my humble opinion, the solution is very simple: If the pairing of Carroll and Suarez upfront is getting us better results, we should build on that. Especially since the majority of Suarez' goals this season came when Andy was also on the pitch. There are many ways to build around the Carroll-Suarez partnership. One thing that I would definitely do in the summer is the purchase of a top quality creative central midfielder, who would also have defensive capabilities. Basically, a younger version of Alonso. When you pair this midfielder with (hopefully) fully fit Lucas, you establish control in the central midfield area. That leaves you with the problem of the wide attacking areas. The solution is again very simple: play Gerrard on the right (in the Ray Houghton role in Kenny's system) and Downing on the left ( in the classic left winger role). Here is how it looks:



There are many reasons why this system would bring the best out of all the players included, but I am leaving that discussion for later.

[djschembri]

You didn't answer my question.

Players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, etc have been developed to play in a 442 out wide.

Are you telling me they wouldn't be effective in a 4231?

Who said they were developed to play in a wide 442? Bale started out as a LB, Nani came from Sporting who most probably play a 433 of sorts. Valencia is probably most suited to play 442 of those 3 you mentioned.

It's like saying Gerrard can play in centre midfield. Yes he can, yes he's quite good, but is he at his most effective? No. His best came when he was just playing just behind the striker, leaving the defensive duties to players more capable of the job. Same with Sterling, and all those players you have mentioned.

[The G in Gerrard]

We can play with him but he is rarely a threat himself mate, as his movement is poor or non existant or lacks the drive to make a run in the box after laying it off.

Doesn't that happen too often for it to be considered a "lack of drive"?

[Brentie]

Ok so Kenny builds a team around Suarez an first month he has a season ending injury what then?

You never build any team around one player with the exception of perhaps Messi but even Barca don't do that, you build a team in which Suarez is one of the components!

But then Goeff you have a mini Suarez in reserve. Like we had a mini Torres in Ngog in reserve. Which meant we kept playing the same system, with everyone knowing their roles and fitting into it.

Bellamy can play the Suarez role as seen against City at home.

[lachesis]

The problem is we've bought two strikers then tried to play them in completely different roles and integrated them into teams which can't utilise their strengths like their former teams.

Take a look at Carroll. When he was at Newcastle, I think over half his goals (or thereabouts) came from set plays - corners and free kicks. Take a look at how many aerial threats Newcastle had in that team as well as Carroll. Nolan, Taylor, Coliccini, Gutiérrez and Ameobi. I'm not saying these guys are going to batter headers in and come away with 10 goals a season but in terms of aerial threat and the ability to contest balls when marked all can do it effectively. Who do we have this season helping out at set pieces? Skrtel and that's about it. It's no wonder Andys getting no space or joy when balls are tossed into the box. Add to that our general shitness of being unable to kick a ball consistently past the first man or over four feet high and our problem becomes more apparent.

Next we move onto Suarez. I never watched him at Ajax but from all reports we have another Babel situation where he's been played in a few positions and his 'main' or 'favoured' one depends on what argument you are making. Suarez is not a striker, at least in the premier league. He is definitely not a lone striker in our system.

The most distressing thing is that simple changes which make sense are not being considered or tried. Get Henderson off the right side of midfield for fucks sake. He has potential as a decent central midfielder and if he has to wait his chance then he has to fucking wait for injuries or loss of form to other players. We have Kuyt who despite deficiencies in his game has produced from the right side season after season. We also have Maxi that plays right wing, we even have the option of trying Johnson there with Kelly behind. We've always had another option even with injuries and yet we persist with the struggle.

Suarez on the left wing makes even more sense where he can isolate his full back and beat him. Yet we stick in the middle against bruising centre backs and expect him to run through a midfielder and defence and still have enough space and time to get away a tidy shot from a decent range. He can beat the players but as a result the green is eaten up and he either finds himself at an acute angle or the keeper on top of him ready to smother the ball.

I'm dejected about the whole fucking setup right now and more worried because I can't see a way out of it without a decent bit of money thrown at it. Part of me thinks we've blown the chance we had with that £70 odd million spending spree.

The system we have which fits the players we have to me is the christmas tree, which is a pretty close approximation of 4-3-3 anyway. It might not be modern, it might not be tactical masterclass but it suits the players we have in my opinion.

[Giono]

There's only one way he'll get any better at that stuff, and that's by playing games.

He needs minutes on the pitch to learn, or re-learn, how to be a goalscorer.

His general play isn't a problem. He links up with those around him perfectly well and we're even able to inject a bit more tempo in to our game with him in the team imo. People run off him and it makes us much more dynamic.

But he's not got the cutting edge. And he wont get it until he's put in the team for a run of games that isnt interrupted every 3 matches.

I'm thinking for the rest of this season, what the hell...why not?

[Gnurglan]

You didn't answer my question.

Players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, etc have been developed to play in a 442 out wide.

Are you telling me they wouldn't be effective in a 4231?

They're good players. They would be effective. The difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-2-3-1 sometimes only exists on paper.

4-4-2/4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1/4-3-3, they can all be more or less the same system. The important similarity for all of them is that you have a main striker and a supporting striker. When you begin to play 4-1-4-1/4-3-3, you turn the midfield triangle upside down. The big danger then is you leave your striker on his own. For the wide midfielders, it doesn't necessarily mean a great deal.

[Cpt_Reina]

We can play with him but he is rarely a threat himself mate, as his movement is poor or non existant or lacks the drive to make a run in the box after laying it off.

Absolutely, said as much on the last page.

But he's not going to get any better at that if he doesnt play is he? And seeing as we actually do alright with him on the pitch that seems the most logical conclusion to me.

Learning to follow a ball in or when to make a run isnt rocket science. It can be taught and coached. But that process is hugely impaired when the player doesnt play.

Sharpness is something which every striker on the planet will say is incredibly important to getting goals. It was always said that Owen needed 5 games to get going again, and he was one of the most 'naturally' gifted strikers going. Carroll has rarely, if ever, been given the chance to get his sharpness or get his eye in.

Hes never started 4 games in a row.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

If we dont get a key striker in the Summer, Kenny's fucked.

Andy is just so one dimensional and has the all footballing intelligence of a mango.

We might not get our just desserts but we always play better football without him on the pitch.

Thankfully, it's an easily rectifiable mistake. Somewhat expensive but hey ho.

That would be my approach too JB.  Pay whatever it takes to get the best striker we can persuade to play outside the CL.  Everything else is secondary.

[djschembri]

I was thinking that when Sterling came on. He was replacing Downing who was playing as a conventional winger. Sterling added some attacking flair to our side, but it wasn't from deep. He played high up the pitch.

You need to consider it in a 90 minute game, not just 10 minutes against a team who was happy to drop deep and defend their lead.

My point was that Barcelona, play the same system all throughout their club, from the youngest side to the first team. They know each other's movements by heart, and play with the same principles. Since we practically copied their youth system, to get the best out of it we need to implement the same setup at ALL levels.

[Red Genius]

That would be my approach too JB.  Pay whatever it takes to get the best striker we can persuade to play outside the CL.  Everything else is secondary.

He's got to be able to hit the ground running too, so none of this 'one for the future' business, we need a number 9 who is expected and accepts the challenges that come with that playing at Anfield.

It shouldn't be difficult to sell really 'we make lots of chances, do you wanna be the man who puts them in the back of the net for us?'

[djschembri]

That would be my approach too JB.  Pay whatever it takes to get the best striker we can persuade to play outside the CL.  Everything else is secondary.

He needs to have everything. Pace, power and top quality finishing.

Basically we need a 2012 version of the Fernando Torres we bought from Atletico Madrid.

[Giono]

You didn't answer my question.

Players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, etc have been developed to play in a 442 out wide.

Are you telling me they wouldn't be effective in a 4231?

Bale is a converted wingback. He is a natural for 4-4-2. Many here call for Johnson to be converted. Would Johnson make a good wide forward in a 4-2-3-1? 

But I'd ask you the opposite: If a young player has been playing wide in a 4-2-3-1 formation for years, would he naturally adapt to the duties of a winger in a 4-4-2?

[scouse29]

That would be my approach too JB.  Pay whatever it takes to get the best striker we can persuade to play outside the CL.  Everything else is secondary.

Do you the club will sell Carroll in the summer?

[Johnnyboy1973]

That would be my approach too JB.  Pay whatever it takes to get the best striker we can persuade to play outside the CL.  Everything else is secondary.

I thought you were gonna slate me for not going into the 4 3 3 debate, but I think it is so easy to see where our main problem is. We dont have a lead striker. Others will tell me it could be Carroll but fucked if I've seen anything whatsover to suggest this. As you remember I was all behind the signing but I've no problem saying it was a mistake. With his playing time, I dont think Kenny has either.

There's an argument to keep him as an option in the squad, but I'll be honest, that one dimensional, archaic football isn't an option I want us to have. It may sound arrogant but fuck it. So, he has to go. Either straight sale or on loan to raise his value and a new striker brought in with the key dynamic of being to fluidly interchange with SG and LS.

My grave concern is whether Kenny will be afforded that luxury, but that's another discussion and also that I hope Commolli involvement isn't overlooked when we reach the end of the season and come to the conclusion that a number of the signings we made haven't worked and have ultimately let Kenny down.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Carroll's link up play is fine. Good in fact.

His problem is his ability to be there at the end of a move, not half way through.

Carroll's link up play is good when he drops deep into midfield.  It is far less effective when he is further forward, when his teammates are closer to him and he has less space in which to work.  The problem is for 4-3-3 to work he needs to be the apex, he needs to be linking on the edge of the box, spinning and getting onto the return or the rebound.  That, unfortunately, does not seem to be his game.

The 4-2-3-1 stuff baffles me though, we've hardly played it all season.

[Matt8Pie]

Disagree totally.

Read the VDM post again. We can't play with Carroll - so giving him a run of games is totally pointless.

It's an expensive mistake that we need to address in the summer. I would sell him myself.

Fucking hell, I agree with Fordy.

That transfer has cost us more than the £35million transfer fee.

[Blade]

Why would we sell Carroll? He is still young and has the potential to become much better, and Suarez is obviously more efficient when Andy is on the pitch. So far this season, 10 out of Suarez' 12 goals were scored when Andy was also on the pitch.

[liverpooll]

Got to disagree.

It is not like football manager, you just cannot say this formation is the best and the reasons for our failure, is our current formation.

Formations really is a useless stat given how complicated modern football is as it never tells us any complete picture.

For me, the  reason is simply, we never had a Plan B.

[djschembri]

Got to disagree.

It is not like football manager, you just cannot say this formation is the best and the reasons for our failure, is our current formation.

Formations really is a useless stat given how complicated modern football is as it never tells us any complete picture.

For me, the  reason is simply, we never had a Plan B.

What's our plan A?

[redmark]

I was under the impression that the Academy was set up to play 4-2-3-1, to get continuity. Now if that's the case, why on Earth would it be OK for the first team to go against that idea?

That only works if a system is defined as the club's ethos and managerial appointments are made with that in mind. Dalglish is not (caveat below) a 4231 man.

Saying that, I always say that the difference isn't huge between 4-4-2 systems. You just vary the starting positions for the wide midfielders and the second striker. The system is just one thing (explanation below this post), but still, I don't think the first team should have a free license to choose its own system. Not when we try to get the rest of the club to use a particular one.

I agree essentially, though I think as 4231 is generally used and understood, it's less about 'starting positions' and more about the role of the '2'. In a 4411 (I think few 442's really exist), it is presumed that one of the central midfielders gets forward at times, rather more than in a 4231 where the focus is on protecting the back four and, as someone says above, covering the fullbacks. Fundamentally, it's about whether you attack with 4 players (plus fullbacks) or 5 players (plus fullbacks). The other significant implication of the 4231 is that the wide players may be more attack-minded and less useful in a 'two banks of four' defensive mode, another element of the 4411 system Dalglish favours.

[Blade]

The 4-2-3-1 stuff baffles me though, we've hardly played it all season.

At the moment, we don't have the players to play the 4-2-3-1. Add the healthy Lucas and the Alonso-type midfielder to this team, and you have the perfect setup for the 4-2-3-1.

[djschembri]

Why would we sell Carroll? He is still young and has the potential to become much better, and Suarez is obviously more efficient when Andy is on the pitch. So far this season, 10 out of Suarez' 12 goals were scored when Andy was also on the pitch.

That could just easily mean that Suarez plays better when he's not the main striker, which we have known for quite a while now. Has very little to do with Andy.

[The G in Gerrard]

I thought you were gonna slate me for not going into the 4 3 3 debate, but I think it is so easy to see where our main problem is. We dont have a lead striker.

We get a lead striker ie similar to Torres but we don't get enough contributions from other areas of field to think all our problems will be solved with such a player?

[redmark]

At the moment, we don't have the players to play the 4-2-3-1. Add the healthy Lucas and the Alonso-type midfielder to this team, and you have the perfect setup for the 4-2-3-1.

And a manager who doesn't play 4231. If he wanted to, he'd have bought the players to do so.

[Johnnyboy1973]

We get a lead striker ie similar to Torres but we don't get enough contributions from other areas of field to think all our problems will be solved with such a player?

Dont get me wrong, it's only one part of the puzzle, but it's the biggest as shown by the number of chances we create and fail to convert.

[redmark]

That could just easily mean that Suarez plays better when he's not the main striker, which we have known for quite a while now. Has very little to do with Andy.

Indeed. I've not entirely written off Carroll in my mind yet, but Suarez isn't a number nine.