Topic: Our Fundamental Problem

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Saturday's game exemplified neatly the key problem that the management team need to address in the summer and our listless display gave me ample time to sit in my seat pondering it.  So ignoring all the puff about positions where we need to strengthen, motivation, cup versus league etc etc lets take a look at the one thing that we need to sort out before we do anything else.


The essential problem we have is that the team is far better suited to the 4-3-3 system that we started with.  I actually thought we started really brightly with Gerrard and Henderson swapping very fluidly and getting forward to support the front three of Suarez, Kuyt and Downing. The problem is that we never had a player at the apex of that front three so we could create loads of great attacking positions but there was never anyone in the box to complete the move. 


Now we did have a striker on the bench, the problem is he seems to be entirely unsuited to playing in a 4-3-3.  He does not seem to have the invention to link up with two close strikers and lacks the killer instinct to continually attack the six yard box.  He seems to prefer instead to attacked whipped in balls from the flanks or to pull back to the edge of the penalty area awaiting a cut back.  The problem is that in a 4-3-3 he will not get a lot of the former and it is a system that needs him to drag defenders towards the goal so that his flanking strikers or the supporting midfielders can take up his preferred position in the D.


So, whenever we bring him on we tend to revert to 4-4-2, a formation that suits him better.  It is also unfortunately a formation that does not suit most of his teammates.  Suarez is wasted chasing flick ons.  Our midfielders, without Lucas, get overrun when playing as a two, with the exception of Downing there is nobody really providing width or the sort of balls into the box that Carroll needs.


Until they address that conundrum there is little point making decisions on players to bring in, as the type of player we need depends on which system we plump for.

[stockdam]

I think our problem is much deeper than which formation we play. First we need to sort out attitudes and instil a winning mentality. Then we can talk about formations.

[Johnnyboy1973]

If we dont get a key striker in the Summer, Kenny's fucked.

Andy is just so one dimensional and has the all footballing intelligence of a mango.

We might not get our just desserts but we always play better football without him on the pitch.

Thankfully, it's an easily rectifiable mistake. Somewhat expensive but hey ho.

[Garcepticon]

I think the line ups against Sunderland, QPR and Wigan can be interpreted as Kenny trying to implement a 4-3-3 without Carroll. You may be onto something.

However, Suarez has had two shots on target from good positions off the back of Carroll flick ons against Everton and Wigan so I don't think it is fair to say that the tactic is a waste, that sort of understanding takes time although Suarez might lack the requisite pace to feed off flick ons. Sometimes I watch Carroll and think that he is terrified on the pitch and as such there is no point in judging him because he doesn't look settled at the club yet.

[ben]

I think our problem is much deeper than which formation we play. First we need to sort out attitudes and instil a winning mentality. Then we can talk about formations.

how are you going to instil a winning mentality when you're losing games because the formation doesn't suit the players?

fundementals need sorting, then the winning mentality follows.

[PIPA23]

1. lack of "support and belive" spirit from fans - players.
2. big amount of "instant success or get out" fans
3. media approach
4. ourselfs on pitch, lack of winning mentality approaching smaller teams and consistence.

[rocco]

Was it not what we were playing 433/4231 second half of last season but Kenny had other ideas 4411 and not working has chopped and changed from half to half not just week to wee
Still bemused why we didn't just bring in better players to play with a formation that had us a top 3 side for his time from jan-may 2012

Kenny seems to be changing formation to suit players from game to game then getting  them to suit our best formation 433/4231

1Set style of play
2.Winning attuide / mentality
3.Quality players to suit formation and winning mentality

[lfcmaster]

the management needs to decide what formation to play

then buy players that suit the formation

have a look at teams that also play 4-3-3

[Gnurglan]

The short answer is - we have already decided what system we should, at least primarily, use. It's the same system we use throughout the club. 4-2-3-1. That should be our starting point.

We can tweak it a little and rotate the triangle in CM. Makes it a 4-3-3. I think that's fine, but I think we should try to go 4-2-3-1.

I believe the real problem is we have big players who are not suited for each others game. Suarez and Carroll is the main example. We don't have the resources to afford that luxuary. We need our two most expensive players on the pitch. We need them to be great together. Unfortunately, if we go 4-3-3, we will either force Carroll to the bench, or we will build our attack with him as the focal point with Suarez on the wing. If we had some great CMs, that could work. But our CM is not great. Certainly not when Lucas is out.

We need to stop building our team around the wrong players and we already have the system of preference. 4-2-3-1. Lucas-Gerrard as the "2". Sometimes Gerrard as the second striker. Suarez for one of the front four (mainly in the free, second striker role). The rest of the spots in midfield+attack are open. Bellamy, Maxi and Kuyt can share one spot and be backup for the rest. We're still 2-3 attacking players short. Players who should fit a 4-2-3-1. It's best if at least one of them can play multiple roles. The other 1-2 need to be specialist(s) in their position.

[Get]

1. lack of "support and belive" spirit from fans - players.
2. big amount of "instant success or get out" fans
3. media approach
4. ourselfs on pitch, lack of winning mentality approaching smaller teams and consistence.

Footballers are proffesional enough to not give a shit about media storms and Fans have been supportive.. internet WUMs rarely show up in reallity.
however fourth point is spot on for me

[jimmyjr86]

We have too many players that need us to accomodate a different system to get the best from them. My preference is for the old rafa formation but the 442 can work depending on the personel. We would need a few more wingers if we are to persist with a 442.

Good points made about mentality. The 'strong' willed players are injured which is unfortunate. (lucas/agger/johnson) which makes us look worse than we are.

Team of Lucas, Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Enrique, Gerrard, Pepe, Bellamy and Suarez is still strong and good enough for top 4. If we compliment these with Shelvey, Coates, and even Sterling we have a good match day squad.

We need Kenny to be ruthless, players who aren't performing should not get a start, or even a bench spot. We also need him to play the formation he wants. If the players don't fit then get rid.

Time for Kenny to stamp his authority on this team

[djschembri]

The short answer is - we have already decided what system we should, at least primarily, use. It's the same system we use throughout the club. 4-2-3-1. That should be our starting point.

We can tweak it a little and rotate the triangle in CM. Makes it a 4-3-3. I think that's fine, but I think we should try to go 4-2-3-1.

I believe the real problem is we have big players who are not suited for each others game. Suarez and Carroll is the main example. We don't have the resources to afford that luxuary. We need our two most expensive players on the pitch. We need them to be great together. Unfortunately, if we go 4-3-3, we will either force Carroll to the bench, or we will build our attack with him as the focal point with Suarez on the wing. If we had some great CMs, that could work. But our CM is not great. Certainly not when Lucas is out.

We need to stop building our team around the wrong players and we already have the system of preference. 4-2-3-1. Lucas-Gerrard as the "2". Sometimes Gerrard as the second striker. Suarez for one of the front four (mainly in the free, second striker role). The rest of the spots in midfield+attack are open. Bellamy, Maxi and Kuyt can share one spot and be backup for the rest. We're still 2-3 attacking players short. Players who should fit a 4-2-3-1. It's best if at least one of them can play multiple roles. The other 1-2 need to be specialist(s) in their position.

Exactly. What's the point of playing 4-2-3-1 all throughout the academy, and defining a way we should play throughout the whole club, then once we get to the first team we play 4-4-2 and start from scratch?

[redmark]

I agree in part, VdM; I still can't quite see what Dalglish wanted or expected from Carroll. Where I'd disagree slightly is whether the 433 (or 4141>433) really suits some of the other players much better either. In particular, apart from chasing flick ons, I think Suarez's best position is going to be a relatively 'free' central role behind a striker - but much as I want Carroll to suddenly 'click', I can't help feeling it will be a quick, goalscorer striker rather than Carroll.

I think it also seems that the switching between the two systems isn't so much a tactical 'option', as genuine uncertainty about which to go with.

[scouse29]

Same formation with the same personnel for a few games would do no harm. Should of been done earlier in the season as for me we are still searching for it.

[Harinder]

VdM - one thing... what is wrong with the team's movement in regards to pressing forward?

Example. Spearing gets ball, looks around and no-one in front to pass to. When there was it would still result in a desire to only go wide and not drive through the middle.

I'm just perplexed about this now more than ever.

[Joe_Singh]

Saturday's game exemplified neatly the key problem that the management team need to address in the summer and our listless display gave me ample time to sit in my seat pondering it.  So ignoring all the puff about positions where we need to strengthen, motivation, cup versus league etc etc lets take a look at the one thing that we need to sort out before we do anything else.


The essential problem we have is that the team is far better suited to the 4-3-3 system that we started with.  I actually thought we started really brightly with Gerrard and Henderson swapping very fluidly and getting forward to support the front three of Suarez, Kuyt and Downing. The problem is that we never had a player at the apex of that front three so we could create loads of great attacking positions but there was never anyone in the box to complete the move. 


Now we did have a striker on the bench, the problem is he seems to be entirely unsuited to playing in a 4-3-3.  He does not seem to have the invention to link up with two close strikers and lacks the killer instinct to continually attack the six yard box.  He seems to prefer instead to attacked whipped in balls from the flanks or to pull back to the edge of the penalty area awaiting a cut back.  The problem is that in a 4-3-3 he will not get a lot of the former and it is a system that needs him to drag defenders towards the goal so that his flanking strikers or the supporting midfielders can take up his preferred position in the D.


So, whenever we bring him on we tend to revert to 4-4-2, a formation that suits him better.  It is also unfortunately a formation that does not suit most of his teammates.  Suarez is wasted chasing flick ons.  Our midfielders, without Lucas, get overrun when playing as a two, with the exception of Downing there is nobody really providing width or the sort of balls into the box that Carroll needs.


Until they address that conundrum there is little point making decisions on players to bring in, as the type of player we need depends on which system we plump for.

[rafathegaffa83]

I don't think Andy Carroll is our fundamental problem. I think although he isn't the most aesthetically pleasing player to watch at the moment, we seem to, at least recently, appear to be getting results when he starts games. Why we haven't addressed that issue and at least started to play him on a regular basis in the league now that we have nothing to play for in that competition beggars belief. At the very least, the club can ascertain a better sense of if he is working out on a more regular basis and give him an opportunity to show his worth to a prospective buyer. Certainly Suarez seems to be scoring more when he's on the pitch. Additionally, it can't help Carroll, if he's being dropped after putting in a decent performance or scoring. The same with Coates. These players need confidence and a regular run of 90 minutes. In Carroll's case, he's freeing space for Suarez at the moment and the goals will come if he gets a run of consecutive games.

For me, our fundamental problem is that we don't learn from our mistakes, particularly in terms of how we approach games. For example, every year we put all our efforts into defeating our rivals, but drop massive amounts of points against relegation fodder and newly promoted sides. Those are the games that kill you when it comes to competing for the title or for the CL spots. Look at Arsenal, they've only picked six points out of a possible 18  in the games they've played so far against clubs in the Top 5 spots, but they are now in 3rd, after a dreadful start.

This season we have the sixth worst record against clubs currently in the bottom half of the table. Look at some of the performances we've had this season against relegation candidates and newly promoted sides. This season we've lost against Bolton, Wigan, QPR, Fulham and drew Norwich, Wigan and Swansea in games in which we've dominated. That's a possible 21 points right there that we've only got three out of. Had we beaten those four teams we had lost against, we'd be one point behind fourth: one! And this isn't just a recent problem. We only got 13 points out of a possible 30 against clubs who were either promoted or relegated last season. Addressing our inability to beat these types of teams, whether it be a issue of tactics or mentality (for me personally I think it's more so the latter) should be our first priority. Because, if you can't beat these types of teams, you can't get into the CL spots.

[Camarero25]

With our recent buys I'm not sure what system we had in mind. It's just like we expected to buy all these players with high "chance created" stats, plonk them on the pitch and win.

We didn't seem to consider anything like how well they'd fit together as a team, or how to get the best out of them. Instead we constantly play players out of position or in a way they're not used to, and the team looks like it hasn't got a clue what it's doing.

[Brentie]

I think our problem is much deeper than which formation we play. First we need to sort out attitudes and instil a winning mentality. Then we can talk about formations.

Is exactly how I see it.

We need more players with the mentality of the likes of Bellamy, Suarez, Mascherano et all and less of the Carrolls, Downings and Hendersons.

We need players who will be willing to break their grannies ankles to win a football games. Winners. Not more players that will shrink the minute they wear the Red shirt.

Once we have those players, then we can talk about formations.

[Giono]

Exactly. What's the point of playing 4-2-3-1 all throughout the academy, and defining a way we should play throughout the whole club, then once we get to the first team we play 4-4-2 and start from scratch?

That is something I have been wondering about for a while. I thought the whole idea was to have continuity throughout, like Barca?

Does anybody think that Carroll can play the striker in a 4-2-3-1? It may be one way to get him in the box! 

[StephenStills]

Andy is just so one dimensional and has the all footballing intelligence of a mango.

[Brentie]

That is something I have been wondering about for a while. I thought the whole idea was to have continuity throughout, like Barca?

Does anybody think that Carroll can play the striker in a 4-2-3-1? It may be one way to get him in the box! 

I dont think so.

I've always felt that to be a succesfull "1" you need to be mobile, intelligent and phiscally strong.

Carroll's got one out of 3.

The best "1"s we've seen are the likes of Torres, Drogba, Adebayor etc... All capable of occupying all 4 defenders, dragging defenders out wide, holding the ball for midfielders to run etc...

The big lumps like Carew, Carroll etc... can win the balls in the air, but that's about it. Lack of mobility means they're swamped by defenders straight away.

[BEAST]

The short answer is - we have already decided what system we should, at least primarily, use. It's the same system we use throughout the club. 4-2-3-1. That should be our starting point.

LOL this is so precious.  By we do you mean you?  Because Kenny hasn't played a 4231 at all this year, so I don't know how you can say we have already decided on that?

I know that's going to piss off a lot of ppl who jerk off to the image of a 4231 on footballformation.co.uk but it's the truth.

Note - I'm not actually saying that a 4231 is good/bad/best/worst.  It's just that i see so many ppl fillling out a 4231 in pre-match threads or just presuming that it is what are going to play when that is so far from reality.

[Cpt_Reina]

Carroll's link up play is fine. Good in fact.

His problem is his ability to be there at the end of a move, not half way through.

[dkra2007]

It's all about passing and keeping the ball for me ... And when you surrender the ball work your socks off to get it back.  That generates speed of play and builds momentum almost by default.  The QPR game is a match we should have not lost and if they don't have the ball they can't hurt you .. Sort of ...

Problem is having enough players to play that system .. and the way teams teams can feel we are a team to get at, even at home is a disgrace .. With the likes of Souness and McMahon no one ever got away with that.

Tempo, keep the ball, get the ball back quickly and bring in the players to do this plus a striker who can finish is a must for me.

[Shabby]

I'd say our fundamental problem is that we don't play collectively. We play in groups or as individuals. It's either a winger/fb getting a cross in for the sake of getting a cross in, long passes from midfield to isolated teammates, or players trying to do far too much and win games by themselves.

I think some of that stems from the new signings trying to make an impression  even if their contributions add nothing but I think it's down to the fact that we haven't figured out how we want to play.

The players seem to have no idea of the bigger picture, where to move the ball, how to move in relation to one another and it has resulted in clueless, panicked football. Our style, our philosophy needs to be identified so that everyone is on the same page. There would be a lot more cohesion in our play and I think it would result in a lot more goals.

[matt120979]

We have too many players that need us to accomodate a different system to get the best from them. My preference is for the old rafa formation but the 442 can work depending on the personel. We would need a few more wingers if we are to persist with a 442.

Good points made about mentality. The 'strong' willed players are injured which is unfortunate. (lucas/agger/johnson) which makes us look worse than we are.

Team of Lucas, Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Enrique, Gerrard, Pepe, Bellamy and Suarez is still strong and good enough for top 4. If we compliment these with Shelvey, Coates, and even Sterling we have a good match day squad.

We need Kenny to be ruthless, players who aren't performing should not get a start, or even a bench spot. We also need him to play the formation he wants. If the players don't fit then get rid.

Time for Kenny to stamp his authority on this team

So much right in this post. I would love to see the statistical difference in our performances before and after Lucas' injury - that has just put a gaping hole in our plan that we have not managed to plug at all. Add Johnson and Agger and that's more than a quarter of our best 11 missing. This is really easy to forget.

I really want to see Kenny's ruthless side as well - not making snide remarks about players in public; thank god that just isn't his way and I am sure what he says in front of the cameras does not adequately reflect the amount of disappointment he feels with a large portion of his newest recruits.

But some of these lads need dropping purely because I think it sends a very counter-productive message to the other blokes kicking their heels on the bench wondering if they'll ever be given their chance to shine. I understand Kenny wanting to give some of his new players a real go as he must have some belief in them deep down and, regardless, a desire to show the owners that he has not pissed their money up the wall.

There really is nothing left to play for in the league but we just need to see a bit of pride in the shirt - character and endeavour if nothing else. I hope (and I know this is nothing that a lot of other posters haven't said) he:

*benches all but those who make themselves undroppable by the quality of their performances

*quashes the perception that there are an undroppable elite of favourites (I am not into droping hints - Carra and Henderson don't deserve a place in the starting 11 just now)

*gives chances to all the promising youngsters who need the opportunity to show what they can do and play without pressure (Coates, Flanno, Robinson, Sterling) - there may be no better opportunity than now

However, whatever Kenny Dalglish decides to do from this point forward he should always be able to rely on the support of fans - matchgoers, locals, OOTs, wools, OOCs, armchair fans, whoppers, superfans... all of us.

The man is the closest living embodiment of the club we have and we should savour every moment his is at the helm.

[djschembri]

That is something I have been wondering about for a while. I thought the whole idea was to have continuity throughout, like Barca?

Does anybody think that Carroll can play the striker in a 4-2-3-1? It may be one way to get him in the box! 

There is another, more long term problem with that. That system was set in place during Rafa's time, and obviously hasn't been tampered with since Comolli came in. To really see the academy bear fruit the first team and youth teams must play with the same style similar to what Barcelona do. Basically, the academy is developing players for a 4-2-3-1, only to get to the first team and play 4-4-2. The roles of the front 6 vary significantly between these 2 formations.

[BEAST]

Carroll's link up play is fine. Good in fact.

His problem is his ability to be there at the end of a move, not half way through.

Yeah this.  He looks so brutally sluggish getting into the box and he doesn't show a nose for the goal to get to loose balls, rebounds, cutbacks, etc. His movement is so poor and has been poor from the day he started here.  It is shocking b/c at Newcastle he looked much more mobile.

[BEAST]

There is another, more long term problem with that. That system was set in place during Rafa's time, and obviously hasn't been tampered with since Comolli came in. To really see the academy bear fruit the first team and youth teams must play with the same style similar to what Barcelona do. Basically, the academy is developing players for a 4-2-3-1, only to get to the first team and play 4-4-2. The roles of the front 6 vary significantly between these 2 formations.

meh that's stretching it a bit.  A wide player who has the ability to cut in and shoot in the 442 should still be effective in a 4231.  I mean do you think players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, Young, Ben Arfa, etc who are ripping it up playing in a 442 can't play up front in a 4231?  If you need to you could put them on the wrong wing so that they are forced to cut in a lot more as well.

Would totally agree with the "2" being completely different roles than a box to box 442 midfielder.

[Brentie]

The fundemenatal problem is that we spent absolute fortunes in the Summer on players with the wrong mentality to get the best out of the wrong player in our squad.

The sooner we accept this fact, the sooner we can move on to rectifiying our mistakes and start buying players with te right mentality to get the best ouf the right player in our squad.

Meaning: Carroll and the 3 other Brits of the Apocalypse out, and winners capable of getting the best out of Luis in.

[Gnurglan]

LOL this is so precious.  By we do you mean you?  Because Kenny hasn't played a 4231 at all this year, so I don't know how you can say we have already decided on that?

I know that's going to piss off a lot of ppl who jerk off to the image of a 4231 on footballformation.co.uk but it's the truth.

Note - I'm not actually saying that a 4231 is good/bad/best/worst.  It's just that i see so many ppl fillling out a 4231 in pre-match threads or just presuming that it is what are going to play when that is so far from reality.

I was under the impression that the Academy was set up to play 4-2-3-1, to get continuity. Now if that's the case, why on Earth would it be OK for the first team to go against that idea?

Saying that, I always say that the difference isn't huge between 4-4-2 systems. You just vary the starting positions for the wide midfielders and the second striker. The system is just one thing (explanation below this post), but still, I don't think the first team should have a free license to choose its own system. Not when we try to get the rest of the club to use a particular one.

[Cpt_Reina]

Yeah this.  He looks so brutally sluggish getting into the box and he doesn't show a nose for the goal to get to loose balls, rebounds, cutbacks, etc. His movement is so poor and has been poor from the day he started here.  It is shocking b/c at Newcastle he looked much more mobile.

There's only one way he'll get any better at that stuff, and that's by playing games.

He needs minutes on the pitch to learn, or re-learn, how to be a goalscorer.

His general play isn't a problem. He links up with those around him perfectly well and we're even able to inject a bit more tempo in to our game with him in the team imo. People run off him and it makes us much more dynamic.

But he's not got the cutting edge. And he wont get it until he's put in the team for a run of games that isnt interrupted every 3 matches.

[BEAST]

The fundemenatal problem is that we spent absolute fortunes in the Summer on players with the wrong mentality to get the best out of the wrong player in our squad.

The sooner we accept this fact, the sooner we can move on to rectifiying our mistakes and start buying players with te right mentality to get the best ouf the right player in our squad.

Meaning: Carroll and the 3 other Brits of the Apocalypse out, and winners capable of getting the best out of Luis in.

How would you determine if the player has the right mentality? 

Would you do it based on a variety of psychological testing or do you want "winners" ie you're going to buy players who have already won trophies?

[djschembri]

meh that's stretching it a bit.  A wide player who has the ability to cut in and shoot in the 442 should still be effective in a 4231.  I mean do you think players like Nani, Bale, Valencia, Young, Ben Arfa, etc who are ripping it up playing in a 442 can't play up front in a 4231?  If you need to you could put them on the wrong wing so that they are forced to cut in a lot more as well.

Would totally agree with the "2" being completely different roles than a box to box 442 midfielder.

The striker and advanced midfielder will also have different roles. The wide men will have less to adapt but a wideman in a 4-2-3-1 will have be more attacking, so much so that it can easily more into a more traditional 4-3-3. With one man less in midfield, a wide man in a 4-4-2 has more defensive duties

[Brentie]

How would you determine if the player has the right mentality? 

Would you do it based on a variety of psychological testing or do you want "winners" ie you're going to buy players who have already won trophies?

I want, when it is widely know in football that Stewart Downing is a shithouse (As told to me by his teammate), for Liverpool Football Club not to buy Stewar Downing.

I want, when Jordan Henderson's biggest weakness is a lack of belief and confidence, for Liverpool Football Club not to buy Jordan Henderson.

I wantm when Andy Carroll would rathe stay at Newcastle, for Liverpool Football Club not to buy Andy Carroll.

Simple really.

Go buy players who have the hunger and desire to win every single game that play and will revel in tough environments.

As Kenny said about Suarez "He's a foreigner who captained Ajax when he was 21. That's all I need to know about his mentality".

[redbyrdz]

Agree with that VdM, though I'm not sure that's the whole problem.

When Shelvey and Eccleston warmed up at  half time, really wanted them to come on for  Henderson and Downing, but instead Carroll came on. Think Eccleston (who I don't really rate that much) would've given us more than Carroll.

Don't really think Carroll is a bad player, but he really doesn't fit the rest of our players and he's not showing much in the way of changing. He was an emergency buy though, when Torres let us down, and maybe a little more scouting would've been better.

[roym]

I'd say our fundamental problem is that we don't play collectively. We play in groups or as individuals. It's either a winger/fb getting a cross in for the sake of getting a cross in, long passes from midfield to isolated teammates, or players trying to do far too much and win games by themselves.

I think some of that stems from the new signings trying to make an impression  even if their contributions add nothing but I think it's down to the fact that we haven't figured out how we want to play.

The players seem to have no idea of the bigger picture, where to move the ball, how to move in relation to one another and it has resulted in clueless, panicked football. Our style, our philosophy needs to be identified so that everyone is on the same page. There would be a lot more cohesion in our play and I think it would result in a lot more goals.

spot on.. number of times i've seen crosses for no one in particular, players running into blind alleys, losing the ball despite teammates better placed just emphasizes what you say. we don't seem to work together, and nobody seems to know where the other is supposed to be most of the time, especially in our front six. consistence has got our back five purring, but beyond this, its really hard to tell what the plan is from game to game

[Giono]

I dont think so.

I've always felt that to be a succesfull "1" you need to be mobile, intelligent and phiscally strong.

Carroll's got one out of 3.

The best "1"s we've seen are the likes of Torres, Drogba, Adebayor etc... All capable of occupying all 4 defenders, dragging defenders out wide, holding the ball for midfielders to run etc...

The big lumps like Carew, Carroll etc... can win the balls in the air, but that's about it. Lack of mobility means they're swamped by defenders straight away.

I see what you mean. I wonder though if he'd be poor, but not completely useless, it could be a decent trade-off so that Suarez, Downing, Maxi, Kuyt or Bellamy have more space to exploit?

We seem to have more success with Carroll occupying defenders, we just don't get enough other players forward.

I guess what I'm saying is that it may not be ideal for big Andy, but it could be better for the team overall. At least for this season until we get a more dynamic striker in next season.

[Red Genius]

My observation would be that most successful teams have a system first and then players to suit that philosophy, there are very few successful managers that compromise their system to tailor the players available to them, it was why you often see a player playing out of position for the greater good of the system rather than the individual.

I'm not so sure we've placed enough emphasis on what our 'system' really is, partially because we have a mix of players that suit two very different systems, but that ultimately is irrespective and our management need to pioneer how we want to play, put the system in place and it's then up to the squad to demonstrate in training week in week out their ability to fight for one of those spots in the system.

This, as the thread says is a 'fundamental' something which was pivotal not only with our last successful managers but as i've outlined earlier in the post to all successful managers. For me that's created uncertainty and that is weak leadership... lets master one successful system and approach before having other ones which allow us to mix up things and be dynamic, forget Plan B, we've yet to master a plan A.