Topic: Cup runs 'papering over the cracks'?

[lamonti]

The cup runs are not papering over the cracks. Everyone knows where we are in the league and everyone knows we want to improve. Winning and a cup, and maybe a second are still things that we should be aiming for and reinforcing a trophy winning mentality will only help improve our league form in future.

[csgreen]

Your downgrades upgrades make me laugh.

Adam and Downing worse than two players who never featured last season.  I know they have not set the world alight but bloody hell.

What makes me laugh is that I'm sure I could hold my ground for quite a while in a debate saying exactly that (Adam and Downing worse than two players who basically never featured last season).  I mean, in 9 league appearances Ryan Babel did manage a goal last year which puts him one up over Downing (despite 27 league appearances) - that's more than enough to get me up on my high horse for a few minutes. So despite the fact that I'd definitely lose the argument in the end, it wouldn't be the blowout you'd like it to be.  Of course, the reason that makes me laugh is that I feel like I'm too old to cry... 

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Ok; let me try to be clearer.

Has Downing's 1st season been better than Babel's? I have a slight preference for Babel's which is backed up by stats.  However I acknoweldge stats dont tell the whole story - Downing arguably offers the team better balance  for instance. I wouldnt argue strongly against those that prefer Downing. Why? because neither are good enough.

What I do strongly believe is that despite spending £100m there has been little if any overall improvement to the 1st team. Selling £77m of mostly dross doesnt change make up for this

What has Babel's first season got to do with it?   The key comparison is Babel's last season.  The most recent one. 
Has it never occurred to you that the reason Babel was sold was because of his inability to build on the promise of that first season. If Downing similarly gets worse in coming games and seasons then he will indeed have been a terrible buy, however at the moment, if anything he is slowly improving so lets leave out the hypothetical nonsense, get behind the lad and see what happens eh

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

What makes me laugh is that I'm sure I could hold my ground for quite a while in a debate saying exactly that (Adam and Downing worse than two players who basically never featured last season).  I mean, in 9 league appearances Ryan Babel did manage a goal last year which puts him one up over Downing (despite 27 league appearances) - that's more than enough to get me up on my high horse for a few minutes. So despite the fact that I'd definitely lose the argument in the end, it wouldn't be the blowout you'd like it to be.  Of course, the reason that makes me laugh is that I feel like I'm too old to cry... 

What makes me laugh is that you think that it can all be reduced to goals.  Not only that but league goals only, goals that get you to Wembley clearly not counting.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

Neil D and VdM.

 

Second that

[surfer]

It's a tragedy that the cups have lost so much significance over the years. Could the FA allot a significant amount to the FA and League cups from the television money? Say 30 percent from the deal goes to the cups, which then goes mainly as payouts to winners of each knockout round.

Money is what the clubs understand these days. Don't know if the FA actually have the power to do that...right now clubs are basically guaranteed a certain amount, they'll be losing part of that but given a ticket to win more depending how far they go.

[lesknow]

I seem to recall the overwhelming feeling coming into this season being 'hopeful of fourth with a good cup run'. Fourth may very well not happen in May but we have played some much improved football since Kenny took charge, so there have been some clear signs of improvement.
Call it hard luck in front of goal or poor finishing, I think that's the only area that actually needs attention. Be it another striker or simply taking some of the countless chances we've had to secure some more league points. Backline's been solid, Suarez, Lucas & Gerrard have been out for extended periods, so maybe a bit of squad depth there couldn't hurt. I really don't think we're too far away from what would have been a clearly successful season, relatively speaking....although I'm always interested in definitive first team improvements as well, if we're capable of adding them in the summer. 

[Bill Bob Kenny]

I am always surprised when I read posts where people clearly do not remember how bad our football as been over the years and think we have not improved.

I sit in the ground every other Saturday and watch our players passing and moving the football around the park.
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see the fact that we always have more possession thanthe oppositon.
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see a defence that looks pretty mean and defends well
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see that we are creating more chances than the oppssition.
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see exciting players like Suarez who are free to express themselves

I also sit in the ground every other Saturday and see us not score too many goals, but I think a lot of that is down to the fact that Suarez, Carroll and Gerrard have not had that much time together and the more time they do get the more goals we will score.  I still think however we need to buy another striker this summer maybe at the expense of Dirk Kuyt and a right winger.

But we have improved, we are just not scoring enough goals.

[JonnyDubb]

The cracks, or crack, is pretty obvious. Score more of the chances we create. That's the only problem and as far as problems go, it's not a bad one to have. It's something that doesn't even need activity in the transfer window to solve. I wouldn't have wanted us to have been knocked out of both cups in the first rounds to concentrate on a 3 way battle with Arsenal and Chelsea for 4th place.

[scared_person]

In an ideal world all of us sensible people would like to see year on year progression and improvement.
The lunatic fringe think progression is not enough if success cannot be had NOW (oh and cup wins don't count as success remember!)

Sensible supporters realise that improving a team is not an exact science and there will some blips and backwards steps. We accept that not every signing or team selection will work out, but we are satisfied as long as we see a general trend of progression and improvement (a cup win, for example, being an excellent sign of progression)
The lunatic fringe paint the positives as 'papering over the cracks' and any negatives are a clear sign of imminent implosion.

To anyone who thinks we are papering over the cracks please answer me this:
How long do you think it should realistically take a team to recover from the effects of 3 years of leaching owners and 6 months of Roy Hodgson to reach a comfortable top 4 finish?

[Mumm-Ra]

The cups have saved the season. But if you focus on the league, as I do, then the season has been frustrating and disappointing. The sides of this argument are too extreme. Can we not be happy with the cup success yet still very disappointed to be out of the CL spot race in March? 

The sense of immediate urgency isn't just down to impatience, modern fans Sky generation blah blah RAWK catchprase. It's crucially important to get into the CL as a stepping stone to an assault on the league.

The league title is everything for me. Has been since we last won it. It's the most important goal. And to win it you have to have the best squad, to do that you need to have lots of money money and be able attract the best players, and to do that you need to be a CL team. Each season you're out it gets harder to get back in.

The cups are a great bonus, they teach the team a winning mentality and build confidence, so hopefully we can build on that. We are improving. Hopefully we'll have some good additions in the summer and make a good run on 4th next season.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

if we win the fa cup, even if we dont actually, this season has been a massive improvement, oh there is always this to go into the record books

You know Ric and his mates would say in a few years but you only won the league once thats nothing unless, you have won the CL, World Cup and the Bloody Boat Race! I find it interesting that this was started just after the sorry Carroll thread was locked maybe these people need somewhere to perch and spout garbage certainly same names crop up spouting inaccurate effluent! 

By the way from where we were over 18 months ago, I would have bitten your hand off for one cup won, semi final of another, at least two trips to Anfield South probably three,  also not being in administration and having Kenny at the helm as well.

I also recall that from the shit days we spent in here fighting the old owners and worrying if we would have a club to follow, this has been  a bloody great leap forward on and off the pitch. The ones that moan 24/7 in here just remind me of pretty pathetic immature spoilt brats without an ounce of realism or logic! Someone buy them a lollipop!

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I am always surprised when I read posts where people clearly do not remember how bad our football as been over the years and think we have not improved.

I sit in the ground every other Saturday and watch our players passing and moving the football around the park.
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see the fact that we always have more possession thanthe oppositon.
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see a defence that looks pretty mean and defends well
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see that we are creating more chances than the oppssition.
I sit in the ground every other Saturday and see exciting players like Suarez who are free to express themselves

I also sit in the ground every other Saturday and see us not score too many goals, but I think a lot of that is down to the fact that Suarez, Carroll and Gerrard have not had that much time together and the more time they do get the more goals we will score.  I still think however we need to buy another striker this summer maybe at the expense of Dirk Kuyt and a right winger.

But we have improved, we are just not scoring enough goals.

And thus the decision to re-open registration is justified in one common sense post.  Congrats mate and welcome to RAWK.

[ac]

What has Babel's first season got to do with it?   The key comparison is Babel's last season.  The most recent one. 
Has it never occurred to you that the reason Babel was sold was because of his inability to build on the promise of that first season. If Downing similarly gets worse in coming games and seasons then he will indeed have been a terrible buy, however at the moment, if anything he is slowly improving so lets leave out the hypothetical nonsense, get behind the lad and see what happens eh

 

The key part of the post, stated, "What I do strongly believe is that despite spending £100m there has been little if any overall improvement to the 1st team. Selling £77m of mostly dross doesnt change make up for this" - which is not "hypothetical nonsense."

Regardless of which of the respective seasons you compare, my point is that at the very least I would not consider Downing to represent a discernible improvement on Babel - especially when considering the money spent on the former.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

The key part of the post, stated, "What I do strongly believe is that despite spending £100m there has been little if any overall improvement to the 1st team. Selling £77m of mostly dross doesnt change make up for this" - which is not "hypothetical nonsense."

Regardless of which of the respective seasons you compare, my point is that at the very least I would not consider Downing to represent a discernible improvement on Babel - especially when considering the money spent on the former.

watch last fridays Hoffenheim game mate then think again!

[hugoboss]

I think it's perfectly logical myself.

If we'd spent this £100m being banded about in addtion to the players we aready had then it's fair to expect significant improvement. But what we've seen is a massive period of transition since Kenny came in and with it lots of comings and goings. When all is said and done we've reduced the wage bill, improved the squad depth, but at the same time lost some of the talent that were already here. As Neil says £77m has gone out, so we can't expect £100m worth of improvment because we need to factor in the players that have left.

The transitional period is over and the players are starting to build up an understanding between each other. With a couple of quality additions we could be a real force again next season.

So the argument is that we couldn't possibly have improved the squad more with the 100M because we sold players worth 77M? I'm sure we could have especially with 2 of our 7 players coming in on a free. This analysis would be a bit harsh on those in charge because it would mean they would have to be spot on as far as transfers are concerned.

Like you say its a transitional season and we have enough to build on.

[Hinesy]

Just read parts of this thread so here's my 2p's worth. (which in my day that could've bought you three left backs and a goalie).


If by cracks you mean the way we've played, well in every season, we've had some shit games where we've played terribly. This year Sunderland was the last one. But apart from those, take the Arsenal game. We battered them and we lost. Not a team playing badly. A team finishing badly yes. But playing badly? Nope.

If by cracks you mean our current position, well I suscribe that to the poor finishing, resulting in results that place us in a lower league position than I'd like to be.

If by cracks you mean the dressing room, the atmosphere, the way the club has been galvanised by the manager, then you're talking shite.


Everything isn't rosy. But you know what? I'd take two cups and a season that gives us Europe and trust the manager one more season before condemning him and saying there are 'cracks'.

All the rest is just bollocks to justify anyone's post. The fact remains, we've become entertaining, we should be better and should be finishing, we have some players who aren't as good as others, we have some that are. But we're Liverpool and we've got a fucking hero as our manager.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The key part of the post, stated, "What I do strongly believe is that despite spending £100m there has been little if any overall improvement to the 1st team. Selling £77m of mostly dross doesnt change make up for this" - which is not "hypothetical nonsense."

Regardless of which of the respective seasons you compare, my point is that at the very least I would not consider Downing to represent a discernible improvement on Babel - especially when considering the money spent on the former.

Well then I will have to beg to differ. We had years of people on here telling us how brilliant Babel would be when he was finally released from Rafa's rigid clutches.  Watch Hoffenheim, live the fucking dream.

As for your more general point it was not addressed because clearly anyone with a shred of sanity remaining would not be making such judgements so soon.

[redmark]

The key part of the post, stated, "What I do strongly believe is that despite spending £100m there has been little if any overall improvement to the 1st team. Selling £77m of mostly dross doesnt change make up for this" - which is not "hypothetical nonsense."

Regardless of which of the respective seasons you compare, my point is that at the very least I would not consider Downing to represent a discernible improvement on Babel - especially when considering the money spent on the former.

You also said you "don't really care" which is better. Downing is a much better footballer than Ryan Babel. Perhaps he's not much better than the footballer we hoped Ryan Babel would become, but that's neither here nor there. He didn't become it. Is Downing as good as some of the wide players at United, City or Spurs? No. But few people are and they cost a damn sight more than £20m, if they have any interest in going to a team outside the champions league, or have all of the best teams in Europe chasing them.

We will sign better players than Downing and Adam over the next couple of years. But using Downing and Babel to try and criticise net spend is silly. Babel wasn't worth shit to us by the time he left.

[Twelfth Customer]

It is amusing that people think Arsenal and Newcastle are models that we want to following. Firstly, we have slightly higher aspirations than Newcastle. Secondly, Arsenal? The same Arsenal who have won fuck all for years? That Arsenal? Why would we want to emulate their model?

They seem to play in the CL every year. They seem to invest in talented, technically gifted youngsters. They play attractive football even with a team that most people wrote off after 5 games. They like us are in 'transition' but have managed to get into the top 4 and are challenging for a CL spot at least. And erm their squad despite being decimated by money grabbing twats like Nasri and Cesc fair enough moving to his boyhood team cost roughly £50m less than ours. I would be more than happy if we followed the Arsenal model, who have a style of playing and recruit on that basis. Technical skill is something you know you will get at Arsenal (they too have their moaning fans mind).

We on the other hand want to play pass and move with counter-attacking players. The more direct style of play has helped our away form (Rafa struggled with this) at the expense of the home form. Counter-attacking players aren't that good at breaking down two banks of four, you need smarter more technically gifted players like Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt for that.

So many fans are now changing their initial positions at the start of the season, when we all pretty much said, fourth and cup runs a bonus. I don't see why we should change those targets. Win the FA Cup and no doubt a success, if we don't a qualified success at best. And each year it will only get harder to get back into the CL.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

They seem to play in the CL every year.

Newcastle?  Really?  Have I awoken in some mad parallel universe?  You'll be telling me they've won summat next.

[surfer]

At what is Downing much better than Ryan Babel?

[Hinesy]

They seem to play in the CL every year. They seem to invest in talented, technically gifted youngsters. They play attractive football even with a team that most people wrote off after 5 games. They like us are in 'transition' but have managed to get into the top 4 and are challenging for a CL spot at least. And erm their squad despite being decimated by money grabbing twats like Nasri and Cesc fair enough moving to his boyhood team cost roughly £50m less than ours. I would be more than happy if we followed the Arsenal model, who have a style of playing and recruit on that basis. Technical skill is something you know you will get at Arsenal (they too have their moaning fans mind).

We on the other hand want to play pass and move with counter-attacking players. The more direct style of play has helped our away form (Rafa struggled with this) at the expense of the home form. Counter-attacking players aren't that good at breaking down two banks of four, you need smarter more technically gifted players like Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt for that.

So many fans are now changing their initial positions at the start of the season, when we all pretty much said, fourth and cup runs a bonus. I don't see why we should change those targets. Win the FA Cup and no doubt a success, if we don't a qualified success at best. And each year it will only get harder to get back into the CL.

I take your point here. But one of the main reasons for this? A manager given time. An ethos seen through to its conclusion. And a settled team of players.

Yet you seem to have forgotten all the dross and shite Arsenal also signed and moved on, or got rid of quickly over the last couple of seasons. And earlier this season they were playing woefully.

So I agree many of the points about how Arsenal are a good model. But like all of us on here, you've selected the bits of the model to suit your argument.

[Twelfth Customer]

Newcastle?  Really?  Have I awoken in some mad parallel universe?  You'll be telling me they've won summat next.

Arsenal.

[Nessy76]

At what is Downing much better than Ryan Babel?

Rapping.

Oh yeah, and football.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

At what is Downing much better than Ryan Babel?

Not tweeting.

[redmark]

They seem to play in the CL every year. They seem to invest in talented, technically gifted youngsters. They play attractive football even with a team that most people wrote off after 5 games. They like us are in 'transition' but have managed to get into the top 4 and are challenging for a CL spot at least. And erm their squad despite being decimated by money grabbing twats like Nasri and Cesc fair enough moving to his boyhood team cost roughly £50m less than ours. I would be more than happy if we followed the Arsenal model, who have a style of playing and recruit on that basis. Technical skill is something you know you will get at Arsenal (they too have their moaning fans mind).

We on the other hand want to play pass and move with counter-attacking players. The more direct style of play has helped our away form (Rafa struggled with this) at the expense of the home form. Counter-attacking players aren't that good at breaking down two banks of four, you need smarter more technically gifted players like Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt for that.

So many fans are now changing their initial positions at the start of the season, when we all pretty much said, fourth and cup runs a bonus. I don't see why we should change those targets. Win the FA Cup and no doubt a success, if we don't a qualified success at best. And each year it will only get harder to get back into the CL.

How are Arsenal in transition? Financial problems? Change in manager? No, they're "in transition" (again) because they don't win anything so their best players want to leave. They are not "like us in transition". We have had disastrous ownership, two years of negative net spend and had three managers in less than a year. The situations are not comparable. We've won a Champions League, an FA Cup, got to another CL final, pushed United closer than Arsenal have done (once) and now won a Carling Cup while in the semi-finals of the FA Cup, all in the period of Arsenal's self-inflicted 'transition'.

By the way, to get a true indication of the cost of Arsenal's squad you have to include the cost of the young players they bought who didn't make it, not just those (by definition of still being in the squad) who did.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Rapping.

Beaten both in time and with a better answer.  Damn you Nessy you're untouchable.

[redmark]

At what is Downing much better than Ryan Babel?

Football.

[sattapaal]

I personally don't think the cup runs are papering over the cracks to be honest.

I think we've played some magnificent football this season, without some of our key players too. We've hit the woodwork more times than any other team, we've missed open goals and penalties. All this without our best players (Gerrard and Suarez).

We've signed 5 british players in Downing, Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Bellamy. I fully expect 4 of those 5 to become a great success at Liverpool, starting next season.

My main gripe is the loss of Meireles, I think he could have made the difference in Gerrard's absence and his movement off the ball is good, along with his pace and shot. It's him we should have kept, not Aquilani.

[lesknow]

The league title is everything for me. Has been since we last won it. It's the most important goal. And to win it you have to have the best squad, to do that you need to have lots of money and be able attract the best players, and to do that you need to be a CL team. Each season you're out it gets harder to get back in.

The cups are a great bonus, they teach the team a winning mentality and build confidence, so hopefully we can build on that. We are improving. Hopefully we'll have some good additions in the summer and make a good run on 4th next season.

Agree and disagree at the same time, I think...
Fourth place this season would be (would have been?) great but we're unsure about how much is going to be spent this summer - at least Commolli has said there won't be a whole lot of movement. With that in mind, is this current squad capable of making a decent run in both the league and the Champions League? Naturally, a rhetorical question, I know. I just wonder that if we somehow end up in fourth & still don't spend much, we might not mount a decent challenge in either competition next season and that would definitely be seen as a step backwards.
It's unfortunate that we're still a developing side after all these years but, like you say, improve & look ahead. I am excite.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

They seem to play in the CL every year. They seem to invest in talented, technically gifted youngsters. They play attractive football even with a team that most people wrote off after 5 games. They like us are in 'transition' but have managed to get into the top 4 and are challenging for a CL spot at least. And erm their squad despite being decimated by money grabbing twats like Nasri and Cesc fair enough moving to his boyhood team cost roughly £50m less than ours. I would be more than happy if we followed the Arsenal model, who have a style of playing and recruit on that basis. Technical skill is something you know you will get at Arsenal (they too have their moaning fans mind).

We on the other hand want to play pass and move with counter-attacking players. The more direct style of play has helped our away form (Rafa struggled with this) at the expense of the home form. Counter-attacking players aren't that good at breaking down two banks of four, you need smarter more technically gifted players like Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt for that.

So many fans are now changing their initial positions at the start of the season, when we all pretty much said, fourth and cup runs a bonus. I don't see why we should change those targets. Win the FA Cup and no doubt a success, if we don't a qualified success at best. And each year it will only get harder to get back into the CL.

reckon you need to support the arse then, or maybe you do ?

ask their fans would they swap a few months in Europe to winning something for once in all these years and guess what they will take winning something, after all what's RVP going to show his kids when he retires his plane ticket stubs and few dog eared programmes!

 twelfth man my arse is so apt!

[Nessy76]

You can't paper over cracks with silver. At worst, we're plating our cracks. But that sounds wrong.

[Coolie High]

reckon you need to support the arse then, or maybe you do ?

ask their fans would they swap a few months in Europe to winning something for once in all these years and guess what they will take winning something, after all what's RVP going to show his kids when he retires his plane ticket stubs and few dog eared programmes!

 twelfth man my arse is so apt!

There a good model to follow because they have managed to finish 4th consistently having the lowest net spend in the whole entire league, surely you understand that.

[Mizerooskie]

There a good model to follow because they have managed to finish 4th consistently having the lowest net spend in the whole entire league, surely you understand that.

So not winning trophies is a good model to follow?

[surfer]

Football.

Ha.

Which part of it?

[farawayred]

They seem to play in the CL every year. They seem to invest in talented, technically gifted youngsters. They play attractive football even with a team that most people wrote off after 5 games. They like us are in 'transition' but have managed to get into the top 4 and are challenging for a CL spot at least. And erm their squad despite being decimated by money grabbing twats like Nasri and Cesc fair enough moving to his boyhood team cost roughly £50m less than ours. I would be more than happy if we followed the Arsenal model, who have a style of playing and recruit on that basis. Technical skill is something you know you will get at Arsenal (they too have their moaning fans mind).

We on the other hand want to play pass and move with counter-attacking players. The more direct style of play has helped our away form (Rafa struggled with this) at the expense of the home form. Counter-attacking players aren't that good at breaking down two banks of four, you need smarter more technically gifted players like Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt for that.

So many fans are now changing their initial positions at the start of the season, when we all pretty much said, fourth and cup runs a bonus. I don't see why we should change those targets. Win the FA Cup and no doubt a success, if we don't a qualified success at best. And each year it will only get harder to get back into the CL.

You seem to be holding the participation in the Champions League very dear, but you ignored my post in the beginning. So, let me restate the question:

(England:) Arsenal, Spurs; (Spain:) Atletico Madrid, Valencia, Villareal, Sevilla; (Italy:) Roma, Fiorentina, Juventus, Napoli, Udinese ALL have played in the CL for the last 4 years (the average length of a player's contract) but HAVE WON F*CK ALL both internationally and domestically.   

Aside from City, who wipe their arses with 20 pound bills, and maybe Chelsea, what club would a player prefer to play for - one that win trophies, or one that plays in the CL league almost every year?

Another question, what did Dirk Kuyt say in his last interview, did he come to play in the CL or to win trophies, and why does he hurt after playing rather regularly in the CL?

The CL is certainly an appealing factor, but it is not the only factor for swaying players to join. I agree that we may not be the most attractive team out there, but I can't agree that we are not attractive because we don't play in the CL.

[Coolie High]

So not winning trophies is a good model to follow?

There in a better position than most clubs in the league including us, there model is a good one to follow, but its not perfect.

[Twelfth Customer]

I take your point here. But one of the main reasons for this? A manager given time. An ethos seen through to its conclusion. And a settled team of players.

Yet you seem to have forgotten all the dross and shite Arsenal also signed and moved on, or got rid of quickly over the last couple of seasons. And earlier this season they were playing woefully.

So I agree many of the points about how Arsenal are a good model. But like all of us on here, you've selected the bits of the model to suit your argument.

True, but they certainly have a philosophy and tend on the whole to recruit on that basis. No problem with us being more direct, it has helped our away form. Getting rid of dross has to be done, we did it too. They are helped by stable management and no board room shenanigans. Still think we should always measure our season by league position. Once we start this slippery road of being content with domestic Cups we shall start thinking like Spurs (of old) and Villa, mid-table teams.

[redmark]

Ha.

Which part of it?

Downing is frustrating and overall this season has not been an unqualified success. But if you seriously think he's not as good as Ryan Babel, nothing I type is going to correct that blind spot.