Topic: FSG - are they living up to their own billing?

[BostonScouse]

Sorry, I thought we recouped a large chunk of that by selling some players and cutting the wage bill....my mistake.

The facts are the squad had been decimated and was in need of a significant investment. That never came in my opinion.

the facts are that there was plenty money made available to do it, but it was used poorly.

[kiNki]

40m on 6 players while reducing the wage bill is not in the same league as the teams in the top four.

[BostonScouse]

40m on 6 players while reducing the wage bill is not in the same league as the teams in the top four.

it is if the wage bill was too high, and it wasn't just 40m, they spent 35m on Carroll before that. All that money spent wisely and we'd have been in the top 4 imo. That's probably the reason why no one has said this before now (when it comes time to point fingers).

[Kage]

the facts are that there was plenty money made available to do it, but it was used poorly.

£40m net spend is not plenty of money compared to what was needed to catch our rivals. Simple as that.

[TOMMO86]

Major worry is early indications don't show the level of money available will change much. Player sales again will but will we end up like we have this season with yet another major over haul?

[kcbworth]

£40m net spend is not plenty of money compared to what was needed to catch our rivals. Simple as that.

Is it enough to keep ahead of Newcastle, Sunderland, Swansea, and Everton?

[lorenzo23]

£40m net spend is not plenty of money compared to what was needed to catch our rivals. Simple as that.

Ah so we allowed to excuse are performance by moaning about money jesus, its alway some sort of excuse these days.

[cptrios]

it is if the wage bill was too high, and it wasn't just 40m, they spent 35m on Carroll before that. All that money spent wisely and we'd have been in the top 4 imo. That's probably the reason why no one has said this before now (when it comes time to point fingers).

But how is it FSG's fault that it was spent unwisely? It's partially their fault, sure, but nowhere near even "mostly."

[AJG]

Major worry is early indications don't show the level of money available will change much. Player sales again will but will we end up like we have this season with yet another major over haul?

How much money do we have mate? Same as last season or much less? Because I think £40m net will be enough

[felix.]

Do you think these same players will suddenly become good next season ? Keep them and we may have another season like the current one.

i think:

downing will improve to level average. he's not a bad footballer and has started to show some form lately, hopefully he can carry it on to next season. the most frustrating thing about downing is that i know he can do it, he just never seems to. still remember in the first game of the season against sunderland when he picked up the ball at the halfway line, ran towards goal beat three players and smashed a shot off the crossbar. wonder if his season might've been a different story had that gone in.

henderson will be a good player for us, he's a solid pass and move footballer imo and will only get better, one thing i love about him is that he often plays it first time without having to set himself up, and gets it right, or at least near enough most of the time. lacks a bit of confidence but that's understandable at his age i guess. even if we had to sell him i don't think we'd lose much.

andy carroll... the horse and yoga ball gif says all that needs to be said. for me, not the type of centre forward i want at liverpool, ok i'd shut up if he was banging them in but he's not. and it's worse than just not scoring goals, it's getting downright embarrassing. yes, he does add to our aerial play, we win a lot more long balls and that but a lesser player could do the same, and besides, that's not what we're about.

adam is ok player to have, i think he's had a below par season and will be better next season when lucas returns. best thing about him is he provides some good old scottish grit, never one to shy away from a 50/50, until he got injured i don't think i saw him wince or grimace once, and he's been on the end of some crunching stuff, a couple of times this season he's clashed with other players, made me wince and think 'legs broken' only to see him strolling of unimpeded.

we just can't afford to sell them all, we'd lose 50m. if it was me i'd cut my losses and sell carroll, persevere with the others for next season. a new manager would probably want to sell all four, don't think FSG would be over the moon with that.

[L Redwing]

So we

£40m net spend is not plenty of money compared to what was needed to catch our rivals. Simple as that.

Not that I buy the money explanation for our current troubles, but I have to ask: how does that explain why we keep falling further down the table?

[killer_heels]

Major worry is early indications don't show the level of money available will change much. Player sales again will but will we end up like we have this season with yet another major over haul?

Whether its 30 - 50m (not like any of us know) + player sales is, in my opinion, a decent amount of money. We have in that enough scope to buy a couple of really good players and also we have some players in our squad that we can move on to bulk it up even more.

The squad is not terrible and has lots of plus points, but our lack of killer instinct in some positions by lacking a quality attacker or two and the lack of confidence is killing us.

The main thing is that we cannot afford to waste that money. Whatever we say, Carroll and Downing have been an utter disaster and Henderson hasn't exactly been great. We cannot afford to sign such quality of player again.

[LiverBirdKop]

we spent 40m net in the summer of 2011.  On a team that was in 12th position when kenny took over after 2 years of selling.   If they or anyone thought that would be enough to magically take us into the top 4, competing with man city who have spent 500m in five years + extortiante wages+signing on fees. 

Net or not, the money spent was considerable and could've been spent more wisely (understatement). Just thinking of other much more talented players we could've bought with that gives me a headache. Of course, it may be a case of our tactics not fitting the squad. At any rate, i think there is more to what we're seeing as this has been a borderline collapse in our league form.

[BostonScouse]

Ah so we allowed to excuse are performance by moaning about money jesus, its alway some sort of excuse these days.

It's funny that no one complained about a lack of money last summer. Only now

I don't see how anyone with a brain can argue that while we made 50m+ worth of poor signings, had they been good signings it wouldn't have made a difference.

Having a manager who doesn't wait until there's 12 minutes left down 2 to make his first substitution would probably help a bit too.

[Bob Loblaw]

£40m net spend is not plenty of money compared to what was needed to catch our rivals. Simple as that.

Jesus christ. We're in danger of finishing in the bottom half, and you're arguing that £40m wasn't enough to win the title? What planet are you living on?

I'm also loving the new net spend angle. Which somehow renders the Carroll signing insignificant because he was free right, no outplay in net terms so it can hardly be described as us wasting money right?

[kiNki]

it is if the wage bill was too high, and it wasn't just 40m, they spent 35m on Carroll before that.

from the 50m they got from torres = +15 + another 6million for ryan babbel = the suarez fee while reducing the wage bill.  Fortunately suarez was boss 2nd half of the season.   

This season we've missed him for 12 games.   in addition to agger, johnson, lucas, gerrard.

Still we were in the mix for the top four in january.   We didnt invest in a striker or a winger or a central midfielder in january.  Players who could have given us a bit of a lift.  We thought best to wait til summer.   We won the cup and failed to beat spurs and arsenal despite outplaying both.   The players switched off knowing top 4 is gone. 

And here we are limping towards the finish line with european footy secured.

[lorenzo23]

Jesus christ. We're in danger of finishing in the bottom half, and you're arguing that £40m wasn't enough to win the title? What planet are you living on?

The one that stops some seeing the underlying problems we have instead try to hide it under carpet and talk about other stuff, what i don't get is what does this money have to do with performance of players?

[BostonScouse]

from the 50m they got from torres = +15 + another 6million for ryan babbel = the suarez fee while reducing the wage bill.  Fortunately suarez was boss 2nd half of the season.   

This season we've missed him for 12 games.   in addition to agger, johnson, lucas, gerrard.

Still we were in the mix for the top four in january.   We didnt invest in a striker or a winger or a central midfielder in january.  Players who could have given us a bit of a lift.  We thought best to wait til summer.   We won the cup and failed to beat spurs and arsenal despite outplaying both.   The players switched off knowing top 4 is gone. 

And here we are limping towards the finish line with european footy secured.

I certainly am glad that whoever was responsible for the previous run of signings wasn't given more money to play with in January.

I do agree that we've also been unlucky and that is being overshadowed somewhat.

[Kage]

So we Not that I buy the money explanation for our current troubles, but I have to ask: how does that explain why we keep falling further down the table?

I never used it as an excuse for that. What I said was in order to challenge at the top, we needed a high initial investment in the squad, it never really happened. After 2 or 3 years of selling our best players, a lot of money was needed to put us back anywhere near the likes of Citu and Utd.

[lorenzo23]

It's funny that no one complained about a lack of money last summer. Only now

I don't see how anyone with a brain can argue that while we made 50m+ worth of poor signings, had they been good signings it wouldn't have made a difference.

Having a manager who doesn't wait until there's 12 minutes left down 2 to make his first substitution would probably help a bit too.

Put it this way if it was not for Kenny to be manager we would not be speaking much about money, it be solely about poor management and players. Yet we have brought poorly and sit 9th is it now? below Everton and Newcastle who both spent less than us yet people are bring up we only spent 40m. Its beggars belief that if you have good management money is not always a question, look at city they spent shit loads and what do they have to show for it? 2 place poor management.

[RideTheWalrus]

from the 50m they got from torres = +15 + another 6million for ryan babbel = the suarez fee while reducing the wage bill.  Fortunately suarez was boss 2nd half of the season.   

This season we've missed him for 12 games.   in addition to agger, johnson, lucas, gerrard.
[/i]
Still we were in the mix for the top four in january.   We didnt invest in a striker or a winger or a central midfielder in january.  Players who could have given us a bit of a lift.  We thought best to wait til summer.   We won the cup and failed to beat spurs and arsenal despite outplaying both.   The players switched off knowing top 4 is gone. 

And here we are limping towards the finish line with european footy secured.

Every team has injuries, Arsenal and Newcastle have had more than us this season. Can't blame that.

[The Repeated Meme]

What we are not considering is whether FSG will decide to cut their losses and sell the club.

The business calculation has to have been based on a fourth place finish. They are now looking at several years' rebuilding costs (many, many millions) a big loss on current investment in players, the desperate need to start building a new stadium very soon, and the inevitable fact that a mid-table team is not going to attract sponsorship of any size, any kind of meaningful naming rights, nor add much in the way of new Asian or US markets. 

As a pure business proposition, one would have to consider selling. That way, you might lose a few tens of millions, and not have to worry about the possibility that further investment will not bring returns.

I'm not saying it will happen, just that they didn't get rich by throwing good money after bad.

[lorenzo23]

I never used it as an excuse for that. What I said was in order to challenge at the top, we needed a high initial investment in the squad, it never really happened. After 2 or 3 years of selling our best players, a lot of money was needed to put us back anywhere near the likes of Citu and Utd.

Well you are using it as excuse cause fair enough we did not spend enough to be near city or man u, but surely we spent enough to be higher in table to be above Newcastle and Everton?

[kennysjacket]

40m on 6 players while reducing the wage bill is not in the same league as the teams in the top four.

[Gainsbarre]

FSG... say what you want but not the right people to blame for losing 7 out of 8 league games... Blame players, management, transfer policy..

[L Redwing]

I never used it as an excuse for that. What I said was in order to challenge at the top, we needed a high initial investment in the squad, it never really happened. After 2 or 3 years of selling our best players, a lot of money was needed to put us back anywhere near the likes of Citu and Utd.

Given what we spent, we should still be in the fight for a CL spot. Or at least a Europa spot. Not in a fight to finish in the top half of the table. Everton is above us now and they've spent diddly. Are we left having to hope that Spurs can defeat Swansea (who also have spent much less than us) so we don't lose further ground?

[TOMMO86]

FSG... say what you want but not the right people to blame for losing 7 out of 8 league games... Blame players, management, transfer policy..

[Kage]

Well you are using it as excuse cause fair enough we did not spend enough to be near city or man u, but surely we spent enough to be higher in table to be above Newcastle and Everton?

Our form is shite, agreed. My point is that the playing staff needed a bigger investment than what was made.

[LiverBirdKop]

I never used it as an excuse for that. What I said was in order to challenge at the top, we needed a high initial investment in the squad, it never really happened. After 2 or 3 years of selling our best players, a lot of money was needed to put us back anywhere near the likes of Citu and Utd.

And considering the UEFA rules becoming a factor in the future....I see us being forced to grow our own players and having to unearth a couple of gems from foreign lands. Personally I'm fucked because I don't trust Comoli to be able to do that.

FSG came into this knowing shit all about football. We know that and it shows in a few areas. I think they're decent people who truly want to win but I never thought for one moment that they had the financial resources to not only make us competitive on the field "quickly" but to build a new stadium which was one of the main qualifiers for any potential owners.

[kiNki]

The one that stops some seeing the underlying problems we have instead try to hide it under carpet and talk about other stuff, what i don't get is what does this money have to do with performance of players?

are you serious, we were a selling club under gillett and hicks, for at least two years, while all the teams above us were buying new players. 

We finally broke even when fsg took over.  No more debt. They invested next to nothing in january.  They spent 40million net in the summer.  Invested nothing in january. 

We were 12th in the league when kenny took over we had a good run thanks in part to suarez being boss.  We replaced so much shite in the summer dynorod would be proud.  Konchesky, degen, jovanovic, el zhar, the greek, insua, poulson, ngog and raul.  And brought in 6 players. 

They havent performed well in the league.   Fsg didnt invest in january when lucas, gerrard, suarez were out injured.   

Newcastle invested.   Spurs invested.  Arsenal invested.

And here we are. 

[LiverBirdKop]

Our form is shite, agreed. My point is that the playing staff needed a bigger investment than what was made.

Knowing what you know now, would you trust the people responsible for Carroll, Adam, Downing, Henderson with a lot of money for transfers?

[MidwestWool]

Yeah! Fuck FSG. Wasted money on Carroll, Henderson, Adam, Downing etc. Fuck you, John Henry. You're responsible for us being shit in the league.

[felix.]

did everton invest?

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

One thing is for sure
If you had put the money in to buy the club you would wonder why some average players cost so much

[kiNki]

did everton invest?

yeah they got the fella they sold to spurs back, gibson and jelavic.

[BostonScouse]

are you serious, we were a selling club under gillett and hicks, for at least two years, while all the teams above us were buying new players. 

We finally broke even when fsg took over.  No more debt. They invested next to nothing in january.  They spent 40million net in the summer.  Invested nothing in january. 

We were 12th in the league when kenny took over we had a good run thanks in part to suarez being boss.  We replaced so much shite in the summer dynorod would be proud.  Konchesky, degen, jovanovic, el zhar, the greek, insua, poulson, ngog and raul.  And brought in 6 players. 

They havent performed well in the league.   Fsg didnt invest in january when lucas, gerrard, suarez were out injured.   

Newcastle invested.   Spurs invested.  Arsenal invested.

And here we are.

None of those teams have invested as much as LFC has in the past year.

LFC take in one of the highest revenues in the league. 100% of that will be reinvested into the club. If you think that that's not enough to compete because of one transfer window then all you are doing is being impatient and reactionary.

It's absurd to look at all the money spent last summer on an already expensive club and say that although the signings were mostly shit the main problem is a lack of investment.

[lorenzo23]

are you serious, we were a selling club under gillett and hicks, for at least two years, while all the teams above us were buying new players. 

We finally broke even when fsg took over.  No more debt. They invested next to nothing in january.  They spent 40million net in the summer.  Invested nothing in january. 

We were 12th in the league when kenny took over we had a good run thanks in part to suarez being boss.  We replaced so much shite in the summer dynorod would be proud.  Konchesky, degen, jovanovic, el zhar, the greek, insua, poulson, ngog and raul.  And brought in 6 players. 

They havent performed well in the league.   Fsg didnt invest in january when lucas, gerrard, suarez were out injured.   

Newcastle invested.   Spurs invested.  Arsenal invested.

And here we are.

Since i posted in here not once have i said we invested loads of money, but what does they have to do with performance of players?  they still should show passion, pride and most of all fcking Effort. If they are not who job is that to sort that management!

So your telling me cause we only spent 40m on players that is less than Newcastle and Everton? and most of all these performance should go unnoticed and we should be talking about money instead of first sorting what shit is on pitch? and what the hell management is doing?

All i am saying is mate we need to as fans stop making excuse for are self its either media, FSG, Roy, Rafa(yes i seen people blame them two for this season performance), H & G the list goes on how about we look at the players and Kenny first and see what they are doing so wrong first then we can talk about rest cause i sure know, Newcastle didn't go oh well Liverpool spent more than us this season lets perform shit and then blame it on money.

[kiNki]

LFC take in one of the highest revenues in the league. 100% of that will be reinvested into the club. If you think that that's not enough to compete because of one transfer window then all you are doing is being impatient and reactionary.

It's absurd to look at all the money spent last summer on an already expensive club and say that although the signings were mostly shit the main problem is a lack of investment.

if i said any of that you might well have a point.

united have 20 years of spending and winning league, city have spent 500million, spurs and chelsea a decade of spending.  Arsenal are selling at present but have always finished top four. 

It makes a difference. Whether you want to admit it or not. We have a hell of a lot to catch up on.   6th place last summer was inpart due to january investment in suarez and carroll, hodgson going and the phsycological boost of kenny.   I think we now have a good foundation a good bunch of 18 to 23 year olds.  Comparable with the kids at old trafford and arsenal.  What we havent had is massive investment in the first team. 

we were a selling club and now we have had 3 transfer windows and a net spend of 40m.   6 players brought in.

They havent played well this season.  This season which has been effected by a number of viarables.  Carra starting, lucas doing his knee, gerrard being out, suarez having a racism charge on his head from october til february.   This is our spine.  All out for large chunks of the season.   Massive weight on downing, carroll, henderson, adam, spearing, enrique, to step up and carry the entire team with key players out.  Many of whom its their first season wearing a red shirt, some its their first season of premiership footy.

A physcological boost of signing another forward winger or midfielder on loan or permanent could have made a difference with regard the tail end of this seasonm like it did the season before. 

It hasnt happened and i'm not surprised we are limping home. 

We need to invest again in the summer.  We need a half decent forward and a half decent wide player.    I'd like a domineering centre midfielder too to play alongside lucas. 

striker
suarez gerrard wide player.
lucas domineering midfielder
usual back four.

carroll, bellamy, downing, adam, henderson, shelvy, spearing, coates, kelly, sterling becomes quite a good squad with three half decent additions.   

[AJG]

We need an overhaul this summer. Lets just pretend last summer didn't happen, sell a few of them and start again. I know its not sustainable doing it again and again but I just don't see any other way. I just can't see the likes of Downing, Adam and Carroll becoming good enough for our club.

[lorenzo23]

if i said any of that you might well have a point.

No what you said is people should be patient which is fair, what i have problem is when you bring money into it. When Newcastle and Everton has performaned have spent worse than us, underlying problem is we spent badly and that is management fault then to top that the players have been shit which is there fault nothing to do with money as Everton and Newcastle shown you don't need buck loads to be above fking 10th.

Oh and if not mistaken FSG already said they would not be sugar daddy so i guess no one can complain now really? and FSG did not tell management to spend fking 35m on Andy or 20 on Downing