Topic: Martin Kelly

[NZ Red]

I just... I don't...

 

Agree with you - I think Johnson is still clearly a better player than him. It's nice to have such a reliable and young player to step up in his absence though.

Not sure why everyone is so keen on suggesting a new position for him. As Steve Clarke noted earlier in the season - "He's been fantastic at right-back and we've got no plans to move him from there at the moment but if he continues to develop and he gets an opportunity at centre-half then I'm sure he's got the attributes to make it a good position for him."

He's shown already how well he can play at right back so I don't see the point in moving him around at the moment just to see if he can play other positions. If the need ever arises to play him at centre back then we'll see how he fares there, but at the present moment in time I'm happy to see him concentrate on eventually becoming our first-choice right back.

[rowan_d]

Is it fair to say that right-back is our second strongest position after centre-back?

[tjtaylor182]

Is it fair to say that right-back is our second strongest position after centre-back?

I think defensive mid is pretty close with Lucas and Spearing as cover. Altough apparently we need to sign another.

[trembles97]

I still, deep down, want him to become a centre back. You only have to look at him to see that he would be a great fit there. The only thing he lacks is the instincts, but Carra could coach him along.

[RedRich84]

I think defensive mid is pretty close with Lucas and Spearing as cover. Altough apparently we need to sign another.

I'd like to see those two play together as a defensive two but that is another story.....

[Zieki]

Hi all, I've been lurking around these forums for a while and just decided to register for an account yesterday.

I thought we looked like a much more fluid attacking unit yesterday - everyone was moving, switching places, and being unpredictable while still having cover at the back. Kelly's engine up and down the right side (as well as Spearing in the middle) and his bombing forward allowed allowed this to happen. Henderson could move more centrally and play a few nice threw balls for Suarez and he also added a genuine scoring threat (could've scored a hattrick)... Thought he did very well getting back for the amount of times he was in and around the 6 yard box as well.

Overall, I still think Johnson is the better RB both in terms of attacking and defending, but the lad's only 21 and it looks like we've got that RB position covered for a long while.

[Gravy]

Martin Kelly had a great game, but can I just say, Jose Enrique - what a player. Strong as an ox :-)

[Angelius]

He was in BEAST mode last night. Played very well.

And any talk about Johnson and Kelly, everyone has to just look back at BOTH their injury histories and realize that over the span of the season, they'll both get enough games and it would be folly to think having both is a luxury and we can sell either one of them. This is without even considering their versatility where Johnson can perform more than adequately at left back and Kelly, by all accounts, will be able to provide a shift in central defense if needed.

Oh, if only to be so spoiled for choices in our attacking positions!

[Z e u s]

I think defensive mid is pretty close with Lucas and Spearing as cover. Altough apparently we need to sign another.

Agreed happy with Lucas and Spearing as able cover and a partner for Lucas in the big games.

We are strong at right back, centre back, left back (I rate Robinson highly) and defensive midfield.   I also think we are very strong in that supporting striker role with Suarez and Gerrard, plus some top youngsters coming through in that position, such as Suso or Adorjan.

This summer we just need to enhance our attacking players.

Reina

Johnson
Skrtel
Agger
Enrique

Lucas
Gerrard

Suarez
Bellamy

That is a great base of players with some superb depth.   All we need is three first teams who can enhance the above names.

Kelly is unlucky because he'd probably be a regular for most other Premiership teams.

[ScouseBrad]

Great game.
Composed, marauding, focused, precise, fast and aggressive.
Now...
When I say Martin you say Kelly!
Martin!!

I like this....should be his chant!

[jackbird_lfc]

He had a quality game but needs to be more consistent, was poor in the previous match in my opinion.

[gazzathered]

Thought he was very good yesterday in both defence and attack.

[lfcmaster]

He had a quality game but needs to be more consistent, was poor in the previous match in my opinion.

the whole liverpool team was poor against sunderland

bit harsh that

[Gravy]

He had a quality game but needs to be more consistent, was poor in the previous match in my opinion.

And the Arsenal match. But he's young and will learn. He's been brilliant apart form thos etwo blips

[redmark]

It's interesting that Henderson is getting stick in some quarters for being nutmegged in his own area by Baines - when infact Henderson was backing up Kelly (not just being "near" him, but actually covering in behind), who dived into a tackle instead of jockeying which allowed Baines to turn and drive straight into the box. Had a very good game, but can still be a touch impetuous. Great to watch though.

[amoh]

If you think he's even in the same realm as Johnson ability-wise, you really haven't got much of a clue about football.
He's currently a very good player and an outstanding prospect.  How about we let him develop that instead of proclaiming him to be the next Maldini only to then get on his back at every opportunity?
He's a young defender, he will make mistakes, it's only natural.  If he learns from these mistakes and improves on his weaknesses, then we've got the right back, and possibly centre back position boxed off for many years to come.  For now, though, it would be great if we could be realistic about a player instead of the extremes that people come out with on the back of each performance - good or bad.

[NigelManx]

I think kelly is going to be a great player. Having watched the ressies on the box in the last 3 years it was clear to me he had a great future. He has the build and strength to survive and seems to have the mentality to go with it. I like him at center back but wherever he plays he'll do a great job and feel sure he will get a england call in the near future.
probably after the national side crash and burn at the euro's!!

[Kochevnik]

Is it fair to say that right-back is our second strongest position after centre-back?

If you're talking overall depth and strength, I think right back is clearly our strongest position.  At least until Kelly moves into the middle, if he ever does.

I would say, if we're talking about a 4-2-3-1, it would go like this from strongest to weakest position:

1. Right back
2. Goalkeeper
3. Centre back x 2
4. "In the hole"/#10
5. Defensive Midfield x 2
6. Left back
7. Wing/Wide Forward x 2
8. Striker

With Kelly and Johnson, I think that right back is the one position we can claim to be the best in the Premier League.  We could argue for having the best goalkeeper and centre backs, but it would be debatable, especially with the lack of real experience and quality behind Agger and Skrtel.  The "number 10" position is one that we're very strong in whenever Gerrard is playing, but when he's out and we have to move Suarez or someone else in there we lose some potency in other positions.  Our front four are very fluid so it's a bit difficult to say who plays in what position, exactly.  At left back Enrique is very good but we're lacking quality cover for him once Aurelio leaves; hopefully Robinson will be ready for that role next season.

[Jeffe]

I don't think people give him the credit he deserves.

A genuine question, how is Johnson better than Kelly? I'm curious to know why exactly people think Johnson is better than him. I rate Johnson pretty highly but I still think he could be defensively better.

I get that Johnson is a better dribbler and he's faster than Kelly but stats wise I don't think Johnson makes any bigger contribution in the final 3rd than Kelly. The goal against Chelsea was fantastic and an important one too but how often do we see those from him? Maybe twice a season where he dribbles past a player and scores. Kelly offers an aerial threat (Chelsea LC game for example) and he can make good forward runs too albeit he doesn't have the same finesse in his ability to go past players...

I wouldn't talk about Kelly as having the potential to be this good or that good. I think he's already great and since he's young, he's likely to improve and that's all just extra...

[JackWard33]

If you think he's even in the same realm as Johnson ability-wise, you really haven't got much of a clue about football.

Yeah this
His technique is really lacking sometimes.
Doesn't mean he isn't a great asset for us and he's obviously a phenomenal athlete - wouldn't ever pick him over Johnson though.
Would like to see more of him at CB; we haven't seen anything like enough of him here to judge how good he can be.

[lorenzo23]

I don't think people give him the credit he deserves.

A genuine question, how is Johnson better than Kelly? I'm curious to know why exactly people think Johnson is better than him. I rate Johnson pretty highly but I still think he could be defensively better.

I get that Johnson is a better dribbler and he's faster than Kelly but stats wise I don't think Johnson makes any bigger contribution in the final 3rd than Kelly. The goal against Chelsea was fantastic and an important one too but how often do we see those from him? Maybe twice a season where he dribbles past a player and scores. Kelly offers an aerial threat (Chelsea LC game for example) and he can make good forward runs too albeit he doesn't have the same finesse in his ability to go past players...

I wouldn't talk about Kelly as having the potential to be this good or that good. I think he's already great and since he's young, he's likely to improve and that's all just extra...

Well he better than Kelly in every aspect of his game, maybe not heading but the myth that he better defender than Johnson has been put to bed this season. Really hate when one of youngster has storming game and then gets talked up about being first choice after one game.

First it was Kelly then it went to Flanagan, had storming game was talked up about selling Johnson Kelly and Flanagan will do the business until Flanagan had a shocker and never seen first team football since.

Funny how that has been put to bed no one seems to be crying out for Flanagan again? Kelly had to bad games against Sunderland and Arsenal, thats one game out last 3 he performed yet he better than Johnson?

Give it a rest let the lad develop, Johnson at the moment is better and is first choice.

[kcbworth]

Johnson has been incredibly consistent this season, Kelly has not (although his performance in the Derby was probably as good as most Johnson performances this season., which is high praise imho).

I think that's really all there is to it?

[scatman]

I don't think people give him the credit he deserves.

A genuine question, how is Johnson better than Kelly? I'm curious to know why exactly people think Johnson is better than him. I rate Johnson pretty highly but I still think he could be defensively better.

I get that Johnson is a better dribbler and he's faster than Kelly but stats wise I don't think Johnson makes any bigger contribution in the final 3rd than Kelly. The goal against Chelsea was fantastic and an important one too but how often do we see those from him? Maybe twice a season where he dribbles past a player and scores. Kelly offers an aerial threat (Chelsea LC game for example) and he can make good forward runs too albeit he doesn't have the same finesse in his ability to go past players...

I wouldn't talk about Kelly as having the potential to be this good or that good. I think he's already great and since he's young, he's likely to improve and that's all just extra...

How better is Johnson?

Johnson is the 2nd best right back in the world. you work out the rest.

[farawayred]

I posted this in the Comolli thread, but it may be more appropriate here:

I certainly belong to a very small minority on this, but I don't think that Kelly will play for Liverpool for very much longer and that's sad...  He was brought up through the club's ranks as a CB, but hasn't been played there for the senior team. At RB, Kelly has a very strong opposition - England's RB and one of the best around (who probably deserves more credit that people are willing to give him). To play there, Kelly has to wait a number of years (hopefully). After Carra is phased out (which is happening), at CB we have Skrtel, Agger and Coates, who are better than Kelly and all have room to improve and grow. CBs is a partnership that you don't just meddle with like one might do anywhere else on the pitch. We have Skrtel and Agger as first choice with Coates coming in for Agger. I can't see Kelly given a chance there any time soon. So, overall, Kelly's appearances will be very limited. A quick look at the stats, he's played for the club 16 times this year (9 in the league) while last season he played 23 times (11 in the league). Hardly an increase of playing time (even with games remaining)... To further improve, he needs to play more like 40 games a season and the Europa League will provide some relief, but for how long? How long will he be willing to put up for playing second (or third and fourth) fiddle? I think it's unfortunate, but we can't offer him a career that will benefit his development; iot's great for us, but not so for him...

[Suareznumber7]

I think defensive mid is pretty close with Lucas and Spearing as cover. Altough apparently we need to sign another.

If that's true that's not a great indicator of our squad at the moment.  Spearing is a decent little player but we need a better player as cover for Lucas. 

[Cpt_Reina]

I posted this in the Comolli thread, but it may be more appropriate here:

I certainly belong to a very small minority on this, but I don't think that Kelly will play for Liverpool for very much longer and that's sad...  He was brought up through the club's ranks as a CB, but hasn't been played there for the senior team. At RB, Kelly has a very strong opposition - England's RB and one of the best around (who probably deserves more credit that people are willing to give him). To play there, Kelly has to wait a number of years (hopefully). After Carra is phased out (which is happening), at CB we have Skrtel, Agger and Coates, who are better than Kelly and all have room to improve and grow. CBs is a partnership that you don't just meddle with like one might do anywhere else on the pitch. We have Skrtel and Agger as first choice with Coates coming in for Agger. I can't see Kelly given a chance there any time soon. So, overall, Kelly's appearances will be very limited. A quick look at the stats, he's played for the club 16 times this year (9 in the league) while last season he played 23 times (11 in the league). Hardly an increase of playing time (even with games remaining)... To further improve, he needs to play more like 40 games a season and the Europa League will provide some relief, but for how long? How long will he be willing to put up for playing second (or third and fourth) fiddle? I think it's unfortunate, but we can't offer him a career that will benefit his development; iot's great for us, but not so for him...

I think it depends on what the club's attitude is towards Johnson.

There might come the time where the management thinks its worth cashing in on him, safe in the knowledge that Kelly can come in and replace him.

Say Madrid comes in with an offer of £15-20m, would they be tempted to let him go so that that money could be used to improve other areas of the pitch? We have Kelly in reserve after all. And Flanagan/McLaughlin further behind.

[farawayred]

I think it depends on what the club's attitude is towards Johnson.

There might come the time where the management thinks its worth cashing in on him, safe in the knowledge that Kelly can come in and replace him.

Say Madrid comes in with an offer of £15-20m, would they be tempted to let him go so that that money could be used to improve other areas of the pitch? We have Kelly in reserve after all. And Flanagan/McLaughlin further behind.

You are rignt, that plays a role too. There are also unforeseen circumstances like long-term injuries (look no further than Lucas), players falling out with the coach, being sold, etc. (Wives getting home sick in not one of these things on the list... ) But all this adds up to a small chance. I was trying to think from Kelly's perspective, and that outlook is somewhat dire.

[stevedo]

I think it depends on what the club's attitude is towards Johnson.

There might come the time where the management thinks its worth cashing in on him, safe in the knowledge that Kelly can come in and replace him.

Say Madrid comes in with an offer of £15-20m, would they be tempted to let him go so that that money could be used to improve other areas of the pitch? We have Kelly in reserve after all. And Flanagan/McLaughlin further behind.

The concern is you're then expecting Kelly to play week in, week out, ditto Flanagan if (when?) Kelly's injured. A year from now if the 3 bar GJ carry on improving at a good rate sounds (barely) bearable, but this summer? No thanks.

[Bob Loblaw]

Is it fair to say that right-back is our second strongest position after centre-back?

It's our strongest without a doubt. The only position really where we can replace a quality player  without their being much of a drop off in quality. Whereas if one of Skrtel or Agger are out, we're considerably weakened.

[Cpt_Reina]

The concern is you're then expecting Kelly to play week in, week out, ditto Flanagan if (when?) Kelly's injured. A year from now if the 3 bar GJ carry on improving at a good rate sounds (barely) bearable, but this summer? No thanks.

I dont think anything will happen this summer. Its not going the breaking point for Kelly is it? He'll be happy to be back up for another season, European football will ensure he gets games.

But next summer? I think we might move on Johnson depending on how well those below him have fared. Get some good money for him and have zero outlay for his replacement(s). Makes sense.

[Suareznumber7]

I dont think anything will happen this summer. Its not going the breaking point for Kelly is it? He'll be happy to be back up for another season, European football will ensure he gets games.

But next summer? I think we might move on Johnson depending on how well those below him have fared. Get some good money for him and have zero outlay for his replacement(s). Makes sense.

I would completely agree with this.  If not one more season than two at most before we sell Johnson. 

[stevedo]

I dont think anything will happen this summer. Its not going the breaking point for Kelly is it? He'll be happy to be back up for another season, European football will ensure he gets games.

But next summer? I think we might move on Johnson depending on how well those below him have fared. Get some good money for him and have zero outlay for his replacement(s). Makes sense.

Well if McLaughlin keeps improving then it looks that way. As I said in the Comolli thread, I hope he's getting plenty of input from the reserve/academy staff who they think will be on the edges of the first team squad 2/3 years from now.

[moxey]

It's our strongest without a doubt. The only position really where we can replace a quality player  without their being much of a drop off in quality. Whereas if one of Skrtel or Agger are out, we're considerably weakened.

Disagree.I think we`re better with Carra in the middle as shown on Tuesday.

[Bob Loblaw]

Disagree.I think we`re better with Carra in the middle as shown on Tuesday.

You're wrong.

[Suareznumber7]

You're wrong.

good counter argument   

[AM76]

I posted this in the Comolli thread, but it may be more appropriate here:

I certainly belong to a very small minority on this, but I don't think that Kelly will play for Liverpool for very much longer and that's sad...  He was brought up through the club's ranks as a CB, but hasn't been played there for the senior team. At RB, Kelly has a very strong opposition - England's RB and one of the best around (who probably deserves more credit that people are willing to give him). To play there, Kelly has to wait a number of years (hopefully). After Carra is phased out (which is happening), at CB we have Skrtel, Agger and Coates, who are better than Kelly and all have room to improve and grow. CBs is a partnership that you don't just meddle with like one might do anywhere else on the pitch. We have Skrtel and Agger as first choice with Coates coming in for Agger. I can't see Kelly given a chance there any time soon. So, overall, Kelly's appearances will be very limited. A quick look at the stats, he's played for the club 16 times this year (9 in the league) while last season he played 23 times (11 in the league). Hardly an increase of playing time (even with games remaining)... To further improve, he needs to play more like 40 games a season and the Europa League will provide some relief, but for how long? How long will he be willing to put up for playing second (or third and fourth) fiddle? I think it's unfortunate, but we can't offer him a career that will benefit his development; iot's great for us, but not so for him...

Agree that Skrtel and Agger are better than Kelly, but I wouldn't put Coates ahead of Martin yet - purely cos he hasn't played enough games yet.  Kelly in my eyes is a class player.  Didn't have the best of games against Arsenal - but wasn't at fault for both of their goals like Carra was and have only seen the Sunderland goal and Gerrard's shot near the end so cannot comment on his performance, but by all accounts, no one turned up that game so would sound harsh to single him out.

I would still like to see Kelly at right back and Johnsin ahead of him for a few games tho to see how that turns out.  Worked wonders at Spurs, as when Bale was put in the team at left back he struggled, yet they moved him forward and he became a class player.

[scatman]

key thing in your post above is Bale struggled at left back.
Johnson doesnt struggle at right back.

[Zlenpasha]

Spoiled for choice?

[farawayred]

Agree that Skrtel and Agger are better than Kelly, but I wouldn't put Coates ahead of Martin yet - purely cos he hasn't played enough games yet.  Kelly in my eyes is a class player.  Didn't have the best of games against Arsenal - but wasn't at fault for both of their goals like Carra was and have only seen the Sunderland goal and Gerrard's shot near the end so cannot comment on his performance, but by all accounts, no one turned up that game so would sound harsh to single him out.

I would still like to see Kelly at right back and Johnsin ahead of him for a few games tho to see how that turns out.  Worked wonders at Spurs, as when Bale was put in the team at left back he struggled, yet they moved him forward and he became a class player.

Coates not better than Kelly? The same Coates who won the Copa America with his team and won the best young player award? Come on...

Spoiled for choice?

We are, aren't we... It would have been nice to be having this kind of discussions about all positions...

I dont think anything will happen this summer. Its not going the breaking point for Kelly is it? He'll be happy to be back up for another season, European football will ensure he gets games.

But next summer? I think we might move on Johnson depending on how well those below him have fared. Get some good money for him and have zero outlay for his replacement(s). Makes sense.

That's how I see it too, one more year we have no problem. After that though, one of Kelly or Johnson is likely to go. 

[lorenzo23]

I dont think anything will happen this summer. Its not going the breaking point for Kelly is it? He'll be happy to be back up for another season, European football will ensure he gets games.

But next summer? I think we might move on Johnson depending on how well those below him have fared. Get some good money for him and have zero outlay for his replacement(s). Makes sense.

You serious? move Johnson on