Author Topic: Patience  (Read 10483 times)

Offline DutchRed

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Patience
« on: March 11, 2012, 09:32:09 AM »
Some people on RAWK have really lost it. Though it's key. People may refer to Ferguson's tough start at our beloved neighbours, but let's use an example that has often been used on RAWK over the last couple of hours.

Actually, there has a thread been opened(and locked almost straightaway) to remind us of the third anniversary of our Real Madrid demolition.

Let's note the team that played that night. Liverpool: Reina, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Carragher, Aurelio, Alonso (Lucas 60), Mascherano, Kuyt, Gerrard (Spearing 74), Babel, Torres (Dossena 83).
Subs Not Used: Cavalieri, Hyypia, Ngog, Kelly.

It was as close to perfection as any a Liverpool team have been over the last years. It became the perfect week after we went to Old Trafford and smashed their inhabitans 4-1. Those days seem long gone.

But. Has anyone noticed that it took Rafa Benitez five years to build this team? It really was his team. This matchday squad contained only three survivors of the Gerard Houllier era. Hyypia left a couple of months later. Actually, in that season, those three players that were around under Houllier were the only players to play a game for Liverpoool. It was the result of five hard years of work.

That team is no longer. Of the eighteen players in the squad that night, just half are still Liverpool players with Spearing, Kuyt, Carragher, Aurelio and Kelly effectively just squad players.

Kenny's job became considerably harder for it. His inheritance was a team worsened. Gerrard and Carragher's best days are beyond them. Alonso, Mascherano and Torres, the other members of the spine from this great team, are no longer at Anfield. Of course he is not going to be better than Benitez' squad after five years. I, for one, think that what Benitez had on his disposal at his arrival was better than what Kenny had to make do with.

Please, give the manager some time and remain patient. Nobody is beyond criticism, but to get rid of Kenny would be so, so stupid after just over a year in the job. Nobody is going to turn a squad burned to the ground into title contenders overnight. Not even Kenny. He is not a magician, but a manager. And managers need time, patience and confidence.

And let's go and batter Everton now.
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Offline Jellies

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Re: Patience
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 09:37:11 AM »
This! But what's hard for fans to understand is how short time it takes to fall from the top to where we are now and how long time it takes to get back up.
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Re: Patience
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 09:37:35 AM »
Patience is easy if there's even a hint of some sort of strategic plan or suggestion of improvement in certain areas, even if it hasn't come together as yet.

The Carling Cup has been a real boost this year but it also serves as a panacea for some very serious problems. And I dread to think how people would feel if Cardiff had been more clinical with their penalties.
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Re: Patience
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 09:38:54 AM »
This! But what's hard for fans to understand is how short time it takes to fall from the top to where we are now and how long time it takes to get back up.
Very true that, the adage about reputations (years to build, seconds to destroy) springs to mind.
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Offline DutchRed

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Re: Patience
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 09:41:12 AM »
Patience is easy if there's even a hint of some sort of strategic plan or suggestion of improvement in certain areas, even if it hasn't come together as yet.

The Carling Cup has been a real boost this year but it also serves as a panacea for some very serious problems. And I dread to think how people would feel if Cardiff had been more clinical with their penalties.

We don't know if there is some sort of plan because it hasn't come together. After a couple of months in the Benitez era one could have said that Benitez' 'plan' was to bring as many average Spaniards as possible either. They were wrong.
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Offline Wembley 78

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Re: Patience
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 09:41:48 AM »
Some people on RAWK have really lost it. Though it's key. People may refer to Ferguson's tough start at our beloved neighbours, but let's use an example that has often been used on RAWK over the last couple of hours.

Actually, there has a thread been opened(and locked almost straightaway) to remind us of the third anniversary of our Real Madrid demolition.

Let's note the team that played that night. Liverpool: Reina, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Carragher, Aurelio, Alonso (Lucas 60), Mascherano, Kuyt, Gerrard (Spearing 74), Babel, Torres (Dossena 83).
Subs Not Used: Cavalieri, Hyypia, Ngog, Kelly.

It was as close to perfection as any a Liverpool team have been over the last years. It became the perfect week after we went to Old Trafford and smashed their inhabitans 4-1. Those days seem long gone.

But. Has anyone noticed that it took Rafa Benitez five years to build this team? It really was his team. This matchday squad contained only three survivors of the Gerard Houllier era. Hyypia left a couple of months later. Actually, in that season, those three players that were around under Houllier were the only players to play a game for Liverpoool. It was the result of five hard years of work.

That team is no longer. Of the eighteen players in the squad that night, just half are still Liverpool players with Spearing, Kuyt, Carragher, Aurelio and Kelly effectively just squad players.

Kenny's job became considerably harder for it. His inheritance was a team worsened. Gerrard and Carragher's best days are beyond them. Alonso, Mascherano and Torres, the other members of the spine from this great team, are no longer at Anfield. Of course he is not going to be better than Benitez' squad after five years. I, for one, think that what Benitez had on his disposal at his arrival was better than what Kenny had to make do with.

Please, give the manager some time and remain patient. Nobody is beyond criticism, but to get rid of Kenny would be so, so stupid after just over a year in the job. Nobody is going to turn a squad burned to the ground into title contenders overnight. Not even Kenny. He is not a magician, but a manager. And managers need time, patience and confidence.

And let's go and batter Everton now.

I only disagree with the bolded sentence.

It's more about the players they bought in after their arrival.


Offline Liverbird 2010

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Re: Patience
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 09:43:25 AM »
FAO of those who wanted Rafa out thinking Mourhino was coming. 

You got The Owl. We warned you be warned again!!!!

Offline Jellies

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Re: Patience
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 09:43:35 AM »
We don't know if there is some sort of plan because it hasn't come together. After a couple of months in the Benitez era one could have said that Benitez' 'plan' was to bring as many average Spaniards as possible either. They were wrong.
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Offline decosabute

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Re: Patience
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 09:47:19 AM »
Patience is easy if there's even a hint of some sort of strategic plan or suggestion of improvement in certain areas, even if it hasn't come together as yet.

The Carling Cup has been a real boost this year but it also serves as a panacea for some very serious problems. And I dread to think how people would feel if Cardiff had been more clinical with their penalties.

100% agree. I felt that there were immediate signs of a strategic plan and encouragement from the signings in -just to use an example - Rafa's first year, despite the fact the league campaign was disappointing.

I love Kenny and desperately want him to be the guy, but my worry is that we're as far away now from where we should be as we have been in his whole 14 months.

Also, using the Carling Cup win as evidence of progress is highly dubious. A great day out? Sure. Nice to have a trophy again? Great. But as I've pointed out before, I'm sure Birmingham fans would tell you that it wasn't a sign of any kind of progress for them last season.

Offline Scouserpool

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Re: Patience
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 09:51:34 AM »
yeah, I agree we need to be patient, however the way we are playing now is unacceptable by a liverpool side. If we lose to Everton they will go past us on the table. We can't just say that Kenny needs time to build his own squad, we are better than this. We need to start winning more and score consistently.  No excuses!

Also this:

Also, using the Carling Cup win as evidence of progress is highly dubious. A great day out? Sure. Nice to have a trophy again? Great. But as I've pointed out before, I'm sure Birmingham fans would tell you that it wasn't a sign of any kind of progress for them last season.
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Offline Mamzz21

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Re: Patience
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 09:57:39 AM »
Patience is obviously key, but was that what the club were thinking when spending 80 million + on players who this
season have been average at best.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Patience
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 09:59:34 AM »
I kinda do have to agree with Rossi, there's no plan, or at least a visible one looking in. Some players we didn't particularly need last summer, when Lucas was injured it wasn't addressed and when it was evident we didn't have a natural goalscorer it wasn't addressed.

Let's see where we are with Kenny another 14/15 months down the line. The only issue you have is players like reina, suarez will be off if we don't improve soon. Its not just fans who have turned impatient down the years.   

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Online lfcshaunod

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Re: Patience
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 10:01:04 AM »
We were shit when Dalglish took over.

The man might be our king, but he's not fuckin jesus.

Everyone needs to realise that whoever is in charge, its gonna take a good couple of years to turn us from what we were into what we want to be.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:03:24 AM by lfcshaunod »
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Offline peachybum

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Re: Patience
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 10:09:49 AM »
Patience is important. But there has to be a minimum requirement for continueing in the job. The sky's the limit but theres has to be a measuring point for failure. I've got no idea where that is for our club right now by the way. Obviously for Chelsea finishing second and not winning the CL was deemed as unacceptable last season. For us right now, maybe relegation is where results become unacceptable. Anything above that then the current setup deserve patience?

Offline liverpooll

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Re: Patience
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 10:10:11 AM »

Also, using the Carling Cup win as evidence of progress is highly dubious. A great day out? Sure. Nice to have a trophy again? Great. But as I've pointed out before, I'm sure Birmingham fans would tell you that it wasn't a sign of any kind of progress for them last season.

Couldn't agree more. It is really pity of some fans fail to see the problems in the name of a single cup success.

We have been pathetic and this season look set to be another terrible season. And a big point is we have 50% in getting 6th as 50% getting 15th position. This is for me the worst part and absolutely no progress has been made especially when you consider what happened in the summer to both us an other teams( Arsenal losing key players).

Next season, it is only going to get more difficult, Arsenal will be signing players, Chelsea will be replacing their older players, Man City will continue to spend, Spurs will start going for the bigger names as they have been consistent in the last 3 years. This was our best chance and we failed it. I can 100% say this season is much more worse than last season considering the summer as mentioned.

Offline 12Kings

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Re: Patience
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2012, 10:13:22 AM »
Agreed, that it does takes time. But it was the Liverpool staff who chose to bring in all those new players. I believe we should have also refused torres a transfer and let him sleep on it till the summer (last summer), bad bad decisions made at the top, who the hell called that?

But I disagree that kenny had a worse squad than rafa, infact we were playing better football,( in part) second half of last season, before all the new blood was brought in, that was after already spending 75 million on Suarez and injured Carroll.

Rafa in his first season got us 5th? A carling cup final, where we came just short to a Chelsea team at full strength and in form and champions of Europe. Just saying like, thats actually a pretty damn good first season.

His second season won us the charity shield v chelsea and the  fa cup, still qualifying for Europe, his third was not too bad, another champions league final. If rafa had the funds we have spent already in kenny's first full season and second part of last season, I think it might have been possible we would have won the league in his third year with us.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:19:53 AM by 12Kings »

Offline El Ninos Black Eye

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Re: Patience
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2012, 10:16:57 AM »
That same season 3 years ago, look where Spurs where and look where they are now. Things can quickly turn around, but the fans just need to pull together and get behind Kenny and the team. 
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Offline decosabute

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Re: Patience
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »
That same season 3 years ago, look where Spurs where and look where they are now. Things can quickly turn around, but the fans just need to pull together and get behind Kenny and the team.

Now I need to make it clear for starters that I'm not at all comparing the situations, but think this is a bit of a clumsy example  to use - Spurs got out of the dreadful form they were in precisely by sacking their manager. What would've happened if spurs and their fans had just stuck blindly with Ramos no matter what?

Now as I said, I'm not at all suggesting Kenny should go (I really need to make this clear), but you can't say that we need to support the manager uneqivocally, while at the same time using an example of the exact opposite being done.

Offline peachybum

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Re: Patience
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2012, 10:25:10 AM »
Now I need to make it clear for starters that I'm not at all comparing the situations, but think this is a bit of a clumsy example  to use - Spurs got out of the dreadful form they were in precisely by sacking their manager. What would've happened if spurs and their fans had just stuck blindly with Ramos no matter what?Now as I said, I'm not at all suggesting Kenny should go (I really need to make this clear), but you can't say that we need to support the manager uneqivocally, while at the same time using an example of the exact opposite being done.

And interesting the season before Ramos won the league cup didn't he?

Offline decosabute

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Re: Patience
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 10:27:28 AM »
And interesting the season before Ramos won the league cup didn't he?

Sure did, though I hadn't thought of it when I wrote before. Yet more proof that winning the Carling Cup doesn't by itself mean that you're heading in the right direction.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Patience
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 10:27:39 AM »
The problem with being patient is that you are hoping that there is at least enough progress to keep the better players at the club intrested and hopefully bring in a few more. Right now, I fear were struggling to keep the likes of Pepe and Luis at the club, never mind bring in players capable of taking us forward.
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Offline givemekaliber

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Re: Patience
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 10:27:47 AM »
The more sane among us will be patient and will sacrifice a higher league place for the trophy won as we aren't going to secure Champions League football again, just yet.
I feel we will gradually get to where Spurs are within a season or two but I fear that the minority (we demand instant success) will start to turn on Kenny when we don't win the world.
We do need to sit back after next season however, when the new signings and any future signings have really bedded in and fully evaluate our position because I don't think the fans, owners, players and more importantly, Kenny will stand for repeat performances of yesterday.
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Offline The Grim Reaper

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Re: Patience
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 10:31:33 AM »
to be honest I think Kenny has done a fantastic job. He has brought the whole club back together and everyone appears to be happy and all seem to be pulling in the same direction. He has us playing for the most better than ever. There hasn't been many games where we haven't deserved to win, so I for one ain't panicing. The only problem for me is putting that ball in the net. We are creating chances all the time and just not turning them into goals. A couple of tweeks in the summer and we could be firing on all cylinders. I agree we need "Patients".
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Offline liverpooll

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Re: Patience
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 10:31:56 AM »
The more sane among us will be patient and will sacrifice a higher league place for the trophy won as we aren't going to secure Champions League football again, just yet.
I feel we will gradually get to where Spurs are within a season or two but I fear that the minority (we demand instant success) will start to turn on Kenny when we don't win the world.


Interesting you have used Spurs and you might be surprised they also won the Carling cup but performed poorly in the league.

Can you guess what they did? They sacked their manager at the time.

Now for us, this is the main thing, getting the priorities right. Can Carling cup win hide the failures?

In

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Patience
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 10:34:05 AM »
That same season 3 years ago, look where Spurs where and look where they are now. Things can quickly turn around, but the fans just need to pull together and get behind Kenny and the team. 

spurs are on the slippery slope too.
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Offline decosabute

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Re: Patience
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2012, 10:34:18 AM »
The more sane among us will be patient and will sacrifice a higher league place for the trophy won as we aren't going to secure Champions League football again, just yet.

Firstly, how does it make you more sane to prefer winning the Carling Cup to qualifying for the Champions League?

Secondly, who was to say we wouldn't get Champions League this year? With Chelsea and Arsenal's struggles, I would argue that this was a season where we could've possibly won a cup AND finished in the top 4. It never had to be one or the other. To me it's not enough to just shrug at our crap form and say, 'well, we were never gonna get Champions League anyway'. Why not? - we were in league-challenging form the 2nd half of last season. To me, getting into the top 4 was an optimistic, but achievable goal for this season.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:36:15 AM by decosabute »

Offline laddo

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Re: Patience
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2012, 10:37:58 AM »
Only problem with this hypothesis being that it's the players we've SIGNED who are under-performing, rather than the EXISTING players. So completely blows this theory out the window.

Offline John C

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Re: Patience
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2012, 10:38:06 AM »
FAO of those who wanted Rafa out thinking Mourhino was coming. 
You got The Owl. We warned you be warned again!!!!
There's a déjà vu about our current situation .......this is September 2008.
I'm not a 'in Rafa we trust' person at all, but to anyone who wants him sacked I'd say be careful what you wish for. I've said it before and I'll say it again and again -Rafa needs to review his own PL tactics - and I don't mean rotation, I'm in support of that.

I believe Kenny will make sufficient changes in the summer to drive us to 4th, he is going to be significantly hindered to attract the best players due to not have CL football though, so they are going to have to be especially shrewd in the transfer market.

Offline Mashy-rawr!nooo

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Re: Patience
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2012, 10:40:12 AM »
My Grammar is shit. I no it and you no it. You'res faithfully, Mashy-rawr!Nooo.

Offline dom lfc

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Re: Patience
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 10:40:52 AM »
to be honest I think Kenny has done a fantastic job. He has brought the whole club back together and everyone appears to be happy and all seem to be pulling in the same direction. He has us playing for the most better than ever. There hasn't been many games where we haven't deserved to win, so I for one ain't panicing. The only problem for me is putting that ball in the net. We are creating chances all the time and just not turning them into goals. A couple of tweeks in the summer and we could be firing on all cylinders. I agree we need "Patients".     
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Offline El Ninos Black Eye

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Re: Patience
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2012, 10:43:20 AM »
spurs are on the slippery slope too.
Yes there are on a bad run at the minute. But look at the difference in them in 3 years, they where in the bottom 3 , within 18 months they where in the Champions League and now they are in the top 3, and up until 3 games ago they where quite comfortably there.
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Offline LiamG

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Re: Patience
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2012, 10:44:16 AM »
We do need patience, Especially with players like Henderson and Carroll, They arnt being given the pateince they need, everyone is expecting things from them now!

Offline El Ninos Black Eye

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Re: Patience
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2012, 10:45:26 AM »
Have my children.
Couldn't you just put that you agree. That's not a good post from an 18 year old lad to a 16 year old lad.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:49:32 AM by El Ninos Black Eye »
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Offline Shabby

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Re: Patience
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2012, 10:48:51 AM »
You can't be patient for the sake of it, you have to believe in what's being done to be patient.

We weren't patient with Hodgson because what we saw on the field wasn't good enough and because he had done nothing of note in his career to suggest things would get much better.

Kenny gets our support today because of everything he has done for our club in the past. He was absolutely the right man to unite the club after the shambles of the last couple years.

But is he the right man to take the club forward on the field now? Is he a world class manager capable of taking us back to where we need to be? Which side your leaning to will determine how patient you will be.
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Offline redk84

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Re: Patience
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2012, 10:51:06 AM »
i'm all for patience....

But i have to say that 4th place was something i was hoping, almost expecting this season.......but i knew before the season started that even if we didn't get it i would be disappointed but not as disappointed as the possibility of not getting it NEXT season.

Everyone must get tired of talking about next seasons.....but at the beginning of the 2 year contract Kenny received it really was important.

I have said up until now that i think progress has been made....i've seen enough potential in our play over the season.....and unless we continue this run of form since January until the end of the season my mind won't change. Although i admit i would like to see the youngsters predominately playing in the league from now on.....its a great opportunity for them and us to see what we have coming through.

I believe we have a better squad, we play some great football at times, we can defend really well.....we don't finish chances nearly as much as we should obviously...but the experiences learned by all this season can only help if acted on correctly.

We are a better team than we have shown.

We have made it hard for ourselves. Next season could have been easier by a more promising league campaign this time around.....but the results simply have not been good enough, the form of the players brought in as well as the ones already here has been far too inconsistant/non-existant. Effort and team spirit i wouldn't question though. And that is valuable, it is an important step that Kenny has brought back without question. We do stick together....and we need that to continue....if that's the legacy that lasts from his second term as manager.....it could be a priceless commodity which is overlooked.....

We have the ingredients. Now its time to get smart. Get real smart. The right people are there at the club.....next season has become very important, tough decisions have to be made....and tough conversations have to take place. I said in the post-match thread (though maybe i shouldn't have with it getting lost in an array of 'emotional posts' lol) that maybe we have to become a cup team again to become a better league team? if that is the way....Kenny was given two years....he made us a force in the cup competitions this season no doubt....now next season, the league form HAS to improve. We all know it, lets hope the right strategy is taken to get us back amongst the elite. It won't be easy.
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Offline foreveragnome

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Re: Patience
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2012, 10:51:12 AM »
You can't be patient for the sake of it, you have to believe in what's being done to be patient.


Exactly.

Offline PhlegmJehst

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Re: Patience
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2012, 10:54:20 AM »
that team compared to now is. well, non comparable, we are so far away from a midfield of Alonso, Mash, etc, and no goalscorer either, 100 million "spent" on players, i believe we will get better of course, do i believe it will be as good as a team from 2008 with the players we have now, no i dont

Offline Snoopy29

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Re: Patience
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2012, 10:59:39 AM »
If China can do well in the economy, then why can't Liverpool do well in football?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

There is much more we can pass on to the next generation other than genes

Offline woof

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Re: Patience
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2012, 10:59:58 AM »
Biggest criticism during Kenny's second reign is the transfer policy. It's quite clear the players acquired have not met expectations with the exception of Suarez and Enrique.


Offline TLW 84

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Re: Patience
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2012, 11:02:05 AM »
Firstly, how does it make you more sane to prefer winning the Carling Cup to qualifying for the Champions League?

Secondly, who was to say we wouldn't get Champions League this year? With Chelsea and Arsenal's struggles, I would argue that this was a season where we could've possibly won a cup AND finished in the top 4. It never had to be one or the other. To me it's not enough to just shrug at our crap form and say, 'well, we were never gonna get Champions League anyway'. Why not? - we were in league-challenging form the 2nd half of last season. To me, getting into the top 4 was an optimistic, but achievable goal for this season.
We have played well enough to get in the top 4 this season and you can't say that Arsenal and Chelsea have played better, but...I think you know what I'm going to say the problem has been.