Author Topic: Regal Infallibility  (Read 3285 times)

Offline Degs

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Regal Infallibility
« on: March 10, 2012, 10:28:40 PM »
If you were born after 1985 it can be strange being a Liverpool fan.  On the one hand we have witnessed such a plethora of success, winning more than the majority of football league clubs will ever win in their entire lifespan, that to grumble upon any footballing issue can seem the lamentations of a spoiled brat, yet on the other hand no other set of fans have to deal with the weight of the past like us, we live with the ghosts of yesteryear.

I was 4 when we last won the league, while there are some blurry pictures of me being held on the old Kop and hazy memories of me standing on Park Road to see an open-top bus it could well have been for any of the litany of late 80s successes that seemed an annual occurrence rather than the final homecoming of our last league triumph.  Truth be told although we were there these successes don't belong to me or my generation, we were within an arm's grasp of riding the coat-tails of 3 decades of success, instead we got Sean Dundee, Phil Babb, John Scales, Bjorn Tore Kvarme, etc. (believe me I can go on).

With one League Cup win against Division One opponents in my youth aside it was not until the old guard was finally ousted that I saw real Liverpool success.  The famed boot room was not there, success was brought in by a Frenchman and expanded on by a Spaniard.  While we revelled in the success with the people who had seen it all before, and felt genuine joy for our Dads, Uncles, older cousins, etc., the people who thought this had gone forever, this still felt like Our time.  This was the rebirth of Liverpool success, we had more silver than the Antiques Roadshow and it felt like we were now part of the rich tapestry that is Liverpool Football Club. We had our story, it was ours, it was special.

Then came the rough times.  Marches, protests, and almost civil war behaviour breaking out in the Kop on more than one occasion, there was a collective effort to remove a cancer that was killing our club.  When it came time for a new start one name stood out to lead Liverpool and when it happened what it felt like for me can only be described as being infused with a sensation of absolute unadulterated joy.  I remember where I was when I heard Kenny Dalglish would be Liverpool manager, it was a Saturday morning and I was in the shower.  When there was an announcement on 5Live that The King was back I jumped up, let out a shriek akin to a dying Chimpanzee, and nearly broke my neck. I grabbed my phone and got to texting because for us youngsters having Kenny Dalglish back at Liverpool filled a void that was still there, that link to the past we longed to be part of.

If you were born red into a red match-going family, like me, you heard every story.  Your history of Liverpool FC may have been given credence by videos your Dad gave you, having a bluenose Mum "Beating the Blues" was always my favourite, but your knowledge came from an aural source.  You didn't just hear about how Brucie's legs won the European Cup you also heard about the 3 days of travelling in a minibus it took to get there, the sneaking through border control and twats on scooters slashing people's legs.  You grew up in awe of these stories, maybe even envy, but in the glory days of Gerard and Rafa you got your own. Still there was a reverence of the times of Kenny that you wished you could be part of and in 2011 that opportunity presented itself.

While I was jumping for joy at the return of Kenny there was still a nagging doubt that he was not a "modern" manager.  While Kenny brought with him the grandeur of past success the game had changed.  While we may not remember Kenny bringing success to Liverpool most of us remember him winning the league at Blackburn, with that though we also remember his fall from grace at Celtic and Newcastle.  I was delighted Kenny was here, but nervous that he may not be able to adapt. Almost instantly my fears were dismissed, Kenny wasn't just up to speed but he was playing all sorts of styles and formations to outfox those around him.  The greatest of these came against Chelsea when Kenny played 5 at the back, negating their 3 up top, and outclassing one of modern football's most tactically astute managers. Kenny had taken on a manager who personified modern footballing success and beaten him.  We would go on to finish the season with the pass and move football against Wolves and Fulham that we thought were the embellishment's of former glories, not to mention an absolute destruction of the Mancs.

We were winning, we were playing great football, we had money to spend, we had our link to the past, we had the new start we fought for and the world was good. Like those before us we were watching Kenny Dalglish's Liverpool, a resurgent Liverpool rampant and with an arrogant swagger.

Nobody expected Kenny to transform a team overnight and we all recognised that a hard slog, several season's in length, was about to begin. Nobody batted an eyelid when Kenny spent big and spent British, this was the man who had forged our greatest ever side with the money from Ian Rush's transfer, the man who had taken Alex Ferguson on at the cheque writing game and triumphed, while there may have been some doubts it didn't matter, we trust Kenny.

Then the wheels started falling off, and again only 2 weeks after winning a trophy we're moaning.  We're spoilt, I'm sat here watching my bluenose mates gloat on Twitter and Facebook that they're now only 2 points behind us, these poor bastards have seen 1 trophy in 24 years but now we're the ones having that horrible feeling.  There's that feeling after 2 wins in 11 League matches, after seeing £20 million Stewart Downing, and £35 million Andy Carroll, both start on the bench while £20 million Jordan Henderson is played in what appears to be a totally unnatural position and Charlie Adam puts in a man of the match performance for Sunderland.

With 3 days until the derby now is the worst possible time to be asking this question, can Kenny Dalglish do the job?  If Roy Hodgson had the same run of form that Kenny is now having there would be an outpouring of anger but with Kenny at the helm there is an unfamiliar feeling, while we collectively all want Kenny to triumph, for him to be the one to reignite another generation's success story, to tie our own loose ends we're shifting uncomfortably on top of a horrible subject - when it comes to League matches Kenny might not be doing the right things.

I'll leave the ins and outs of this for another time.  I could write tomes about how Charlie Adam has only ever looked comfortable in a midfield 3, how at Blackpool David Vaughan picked up his slack and in his first half season here Lucas gave the Herculean effort of 2 men to allow Adam to be accommodated, how our plan seems to be nothing more than get it out wide and get it crossed in as soon as possible, how ball retention has all but disappeared, how Kenny was once a man experimenting with fluid forward lines and 5 at the back yet now seems to have 4-4-2 cemented in place, how against Sunderland (the team in the league with the highest amount of headed goals conceded) we leave our 6 foot 3 inch striker on the bench for 70 minutes, how Maxi Rodriguez has become the forgotten man despite being Kenny's best player last season, and how midfielders seem immune to forward runs. Worst of all how we seem to have a dedicated plan in place for important games yet turn up to "lesser" opposition expecting to win because we're Liverpool.

All of these are genuine concerns yet when criticism is raised there is still a group of hardcore monarchists that believe in regal infallibility. That if Kenny says a bad result was down to bad luck, poor refereeing, or any other reason he delivers in a post-match press conference then that's why we lost. What's more if you dare question what Kenny is doing you're attacking him and the very fabric of Liverpool.

We're in a strange time, we have a myth of a man at the helm of a ship in a storm.  As much as I love Kenny and want him to succeed we must allow ourselves the opportunity to analyse, and when necessary criticise, the man at the top.  It's easy to say nobody is bigger than the club when a flash in the pan like Fernando Torres has 1 foot out of the door yet when that man is the living embodiment of the club it becomes complicated.

When Kenny took on the role of Liverpool manager for the second time he took on the pressure that comes with it and while we must all support him to the very end, we must not be made to fear voicing an opinion that is contrary to the almost religious dogma that Kenny is King and the King is infallible.

I'm in Kenny's corner, I want him to stay. If Kenny was manager of Man City he'd have won the league by now but that does not mean that he is invulnerable to criticism or that anybody should be fearful of speaking out simply because of the weight of history that he brings.

I'll be on here fighting for the King because I believe in him and when he gets it right his football is beyond compare but if you don't feel the same way don't be afraid to say why.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 10:44:50 PM by Degs »

Offline royhendo

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 10:42:16 PM »
That's the way to do it Degs.
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Offline Voltaire

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 10:45:53 PM »
Excellent post from Degs, as always.

There's insightful posts and threads around tonight, with some perceptive analysis of our current situation - it's making the performance and result far easier to digest. It's easy to knock a forum, especially when the fuckwits are out in force, but the posts and threads on Rawk tonight show exactly how a group of fans can rationalise and debate what's going wrong in an enlightened and perceptive way.
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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 10:49:24 PM »
I'm in Kenny's corner, I want him to stay. If Kenny was manager of Man City he'd have won the league by now but that does not mean that he is invulnerable to criticism or that anybody should be fearful of speaking out simply because of the weight of history that he brings.

I'll be on here fighting for the King because I believe in him and when he gets it right his football is beyond compare but if you don't feel the same way don't be afraid to say why.

It doesn't give you the respect your excellent post deserve, but for oss less educated the above really summarizes it..
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline planet--terror

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 10:51:05 PM »
SPOT.ON.
BETTISON IS LAUGHING AT YOU.....AND YOU PAY FOR IT! SIGN THIS! https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

Online Y2J

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 11:23:25 PM »
Totally spot on, our form at the back end of last season was a joy to behold, we were doing all sort of tricks in the book, dismantling defenses right, left & center and in doing so we didn't have that tactical complications that come with modern football. We played pass & move, just pass & move football, the front six of Lucas, Spearing, Maxi, Meireles, Suarez & Kuyt all roaming from position opening defenses up with the fullbacks and sometimes the center backs joining up in attack.

At that point, we were playing arguably the finest football in the country, the beatings we gave to United, Chelsea, Wolves, Fulham, City, Newcastle & Birmingham made me look forward to this season as much as a kid waiting for Christmas. I didn't hope for a league win, just a good domestic cup runs and a solid season in the league with a respectable finish in the CL spots. Initially I wasn't that much impressed at most of our transfers but I trusted Kenny's judgment, after all, he won before and will win again with us. Season started brightly & at the end of August, I thought we were on plan to what we hoped to achieve in the summer, but then things didn't work as we hoped for ever since the start of September. Our league form has been regressing, and we seemed like just a cup team who transforms in the cup games but then falters in the league, our summer signings mostly are yet to impress and we seem to only raise our game against the big boys of the PL, not to mention our terrible form at Anfield or our inability to score a goal.

Like many, I came to the judgment that our signings aren't as good as we hoped for. I want Kenny to succeed, want him to lead us to glory, there won't be a better sight for me than seeing King Kenny leading us on a CL final against Barcelona and holding the cup after beating them being one of select few people who won the good old big ears as a player & a manager. But to achieve that, to reach the CL, Kenny needs to admit his mistake, he's not an angel, and we all sometimes judge things wrongly. I have the utmost confidence in Kenny and hopefully he realizes that some of the players brought aren't good enough to lead us forward and that we need to improve on them and corrects the mistakes done last summer in the following one. Sticking with them and giving them more chances than what they already had would only move us backwards and by the time I think I won't be the only one who will question Kenny as the man taking us forward.
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Offline liversaint

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 11:48:04 PM »
Good read that the sky generation would do well Tito understand
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There is another option. Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple.

Offline BazC

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 02:05:02 AM »
Good read that the sky generation would do well Tito understand

It's a great post, but I don't think it's just the "sky generation" it's aimed at. It's challenging the notion that Kenny is unquestionable, and I don't think it's the "sky generation" (or just them) that's going to take such a stance. If anything, it'll be the older fans who saw Kenny win everything under the sun with Liverpool and of course do so much off the pitch. Us younger fans know of his legend, and as Degs says, it was an amazing moment when he was announced as manager. Just hearing him speak in press conferences and interviews was amazing enough. But when it comes to that 'link' Degs talks about between the older generation and our generation, it's the goal celebration- arms aloft, that smile and the happiness of a fan exuding from every pore of his being.

Kenny's the King isn't he? He's done more for this club than could be asked from anyone, and still he gives. He's one of the most celebrated of figures of one of the most celebrated of clubs and for that he'll always be talked about.

But, and there is a but, as the current manager of the team, he still needs to answer to the current results and performances, the transfers, the lack of improvement. And that's the point that's being made here- we all love him, but at the same time, we all want the team to do well and win trophies. He's brought one to the club after so many years, but at the same time, it's progress in the league and CL football we need to see again. That's not really looking any closer than it was this time last year.


Offline Rohit

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 02:15:07 AM »
That is a fantastic post Degs completely spot on.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 02:19:19 AM »
excellent balanced read that
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Offline Zeb

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 02:27:48 AM »
I don't see Degs' point though Baz. Criticism is one thing, mindless abuse and the sub-puerile level of discussion which goes on is another. There's plenty of criticism of Dalglish about and has been since roughly three weeks since he got the job again. Whether that's signings or tactics/team choice. Not noticed this movement claiming he's infallible. Which for me, undermines the credibility of Degs' post. It comes across as more of a snide swipe than anything else.

I mean: "That if Kenny says a bad result was down to bad luck, poor refereeing, or any other reason he delivers in a post-match press conference then that's why we lost."

Seriously? Pull the other one, it's got bells. It's a well-constructed OP though.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 02:47:04 AM »
We set out with the wrong idea in the summer.  And we compounded our misery by adding the wrong personnel.  Degs rightly said that Kenny seems to have sacrificed the fluid systems of last season for a 4-4-2 and pointed out numerous other flaws with our play and they are all spot on.  But ultimately it comes down to the fact that Kenny and the management team decided that it was worth dismantling a team that with its fluid style had the second highest points tally IIRC behind the Mancs after Kenny had taken over. 


Obviously the personnel we had then were not going to win great glories since they were limited in many ways and we did need a shake up of personnel.  However, the plan with which we seem to have proceeded resulted in us ending neither here nor there.  In theory Downing playing on the left and supplying crosses for Carroll with Suarez knocking about and Gerrard joining from deep and Henderson from the right sounds good.  But in reality none of that has worked. 


Downing has been rank average.  Henderson looks lost on the wing and while he does show a bit of talent I fear he is too inconsistent at a stage when he is still maturing and unless he plays in the middle of the park looks a very poor player.  Gerrard simply isn't the force of nature he once was.  He was at his best one of the best players in the world and he is nowhere near his best.  Injuries and age have taken their toll.  Lucas who was one of our standout players last season was ruled out early on through a major injury and that has meant Adam, Henderson and Spearing have got a lot more time than they should have.  Adam is a 6 million player really.  Decent option to have in a squad and at the moment Henderson is the same and Spearing is the same.  So, we have three players who are only good enough to be squad players at best manning our midfield.  The one shoe in for a midfield berth is injured and our captain has fitness issues and isn't as good as he was. 


Our wingers haven't created anything all season.  Our big money centre forward is still learning but we massively overpaid for him and while he does have some talent, we've been far too happy to simply knock it up and hope.  Our tactics are abysmal at times.  And all this has put immense pressure on our mercurial forward Suarez who has been fluffing at chances after the first few games of the season.  In short, you could have the most incredible tactics and they may work for cup games.  Performing in the league needs quality players.  We don't have them.  Kenny and Commolli have to sort it out soon or we are getting left behind.  One or two adjustments aren't going to cut it. 


So we need a long hard re-think at where we are going.  And no getting rid of Kenny isn't going to do anyone any favours.  That isn't an option simply because he hasn't had anywhere near enough time at the helm for us to make our minds up if he is going to turn it around.  With the Hodge it was obvious since Day 1 that he didn't have a clue what the expectations were.  That has not been the case with Kenny.  We saw last season what his sides are capable of producing. 


It simply comes down to the personnel we have.  Suarez is a fantastic player but at the moment he is having to be the no.9 and the no.7 and I think its patently obviously he is only one of those.  And of course we still lack pace and flair.  We've become burdened with a very negative mindset for years.  Every time a flair player's name gets thrown around immediate groans come out about whether or not the player works hard enough and within too long he is labelled a primma donna.  Now Kenny cannot be held responsible for that since it has pervaded into the collective mentality over time.  But its a mindset we ought to change.  Through Carra's misfortune we've struck defensive gold.  But keeping 38 clean sheets in a season does not guarantee success.  Scoring goals does and unless we grow some balls and get personnel that are capable of breaking down sides with individual brilliance we will still be moaning about what seems to be wrong with our team.  The only time we came close to winning the league was in 08-09.  And that was when we had the best striker in the world, certainly two of the best midfielders in the world and the best defensive midfielder in the world.  And we didn't win that season due to numerous draws. 


What was the problem ?  Well in an attacking sense we relied too heavily on Gerrard and Torres and to a certain extent Benayoun.  Riera and Kuyt chipped in with goals as well so two of our players had stellar seasons and yet we fell short.  But the problem then was similar to the one we have today.  We seem to be afraid of getting players that can win games on their own and players with pace.  Title winning sides always have more than two or three such players.  We have had two in the past with Benayoun having a stellar season and that is about it.  Its a problem we have yet to address.  That is something Kenny simply inherited but its something he would have to do something about for us to have a chance. 
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The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 02:48:22 AM »
I don't see Degs' point though Baz. Criticism is one thing, mindless abuse and the sub-puerile level of discussion which goes on is another. There's plenty of criticism of Dalglish about and has been since roughly three weeks since he got the job again. Whether that's signings or tactics/team choice. Not noticed this movement claiming he's infallible. Which for me, undermines the credibility of Degs' post. It comes across as more of a snide swipe than anything else.

I mean: "That if Kenny says a bad result was down to bad luck, poor refereeing, or any other reason he delivers in a post-match press conference then that's why we lost."

Seriously? Pull the other one, it's got bells. It's a well-constructed OP though.

If that is the case, you simply haven't looked hard enough mate.  Its all over the place actually. 
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline mactifosi

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 02:51:27 AM »
I was born long before 1985, sophistry aside the results in the league this year are simply not good enough.
I wrote off this year as a transitional year before it started but I am disappointed in the changes since last season.

I am not talking about the new signings but rather the style of play.

We have abandoned a winning formula to accommodate new players and disgarded others who were doing a good job, namely Maxi.

I may have had a few pints at this stage and I am not one for knee jerk reactions but we need to end the confusion and decide how we want to play.


Offline BazC

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 02:59:59 AM »
I don't see Degs' point though Baz. Criticism is one thing, mindless abuse and the sub-puerile level of discussion which goes on is another. There's plenty of criticism of Dalglish about and has been since roughly three weeks since he got the job again. Whether that's signings or tactics/team choice. Not noticed this movement claiming he's infallible. Which for me, undermines the credibility of Degs' post. It comes across as more of a snide swipe than anything else.

I mean: "That if Kenny says a bad result was down to bad luck, poor refereeing, or any other reason he delivers in a post-match press conference then that's why we lost."

Seriously? Pull the other one, it's got bells. It's a well-constructed OP though.

It's all over the place- I've seen posts today and whenever there's a hint of a suggestion of Kenny being questioned that one should "have a word, it's Kenny", or "you realise who you're talking about here?" In my opinion it has been pretty obvious.

Abuse/disrespect shouldn't be levelled at any Liverpool manager, let alone Kenny. I was uneasy with the way Hodgson was hounded by the end if I'm honest, even though I knew he had to go- I didn't like the way things turned so personal and abusive. But I guess that's how football is; for example if you're a bad player, you're apparently a c*nt/tosser/shithouse rather than just a bad player. Whereas if you're good, you're a God, a King or a Prince. It's funny how things seem to get personal... It's just one of the bullshit things about football supporting culture (when looking at a fanbase as a whole).

Offline Zeb

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2012, 04:22:59 AM »
jonny and baz -

Personally, think it's perfectly right to tell someone where to go if they're just hurling abuse. Think it's a long stretch from that to claiming that there's some kind of sub-group hounding out all criticism because they think Kenny's infallible.

There's been a ton of criticism of Kenny, some of it even constructive, and they seem to have attracted not a whisper of 'Kenny's always right' type arguments. (Just reading the thread Terry started on Suarez, was wondering when that discussion would break out into its own thread). The only posts I've read today which have been along those 'Kenny's always right' lines have been by someone who's taking the piss doing it. If I'm having to wade through that amount of crap to find what Degs is referring to, then I think my point's a fair one. Think it's misaimed criticism which is applicable at best to a handful of frequent fliers. If the problem is the level and standard of discussion, then it's one which Rawk the internet has had for a while. The post-match thread remains a joke and there are few refuges left to discuss football on here without it devolving into what you call the bullshit side of things Baz.

Good post by Jonny up there. Would be a good starting point for discussion. If it got moved into its own thread, do you think that the thread would be filled with people outraged by criticism of Kenny or by people calling Player X, Y and Z cnuts and shitehawks? My money is on the latter, which is why I think Degs' point doesn't stack up.

Anyways, just my opinion as the door hits my arse on the way out. :)
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Offline Redkoprob

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2012, 05:34:58 AM »
Not even Rafa could have made these players into world beaters.  The question is why sanction these British-centric transfers in the first place?  Too many misses and very little success in so-called Premier league proven players.  And as you said, why leave Maxi out of the equation.  He was scoring goals for fun.  The same cannot be said for Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll.  The players should hold some responsibility but why have these sort of players in the squad in the first place?  You only win the lottery once and we will not be spending in excess of 100million again in the near future. 

Offline subroc

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2012, 06:59:47 AM »
I have supportd the club as a fan since before Dallgish became manager. So I am "an old fart" by that reckoning.

However, for me all that matters is the succes of the team and whether or not the team is getting stronger and better and there is a plan that is good and will likely work that the team selection and acquisition is being done according to.

I simply do not see that credible plan at work since the start of this season. The signing of Carroll last season was already a huge warning bell and erased the god feeling I had when Suarez was signed and immediately begin to show why he was signed, but the signings ovre the summer since hav been diabolical and I had great fears over those signings even at the time. As this season has progressed, the management team do not show signs that they realise that the team's attacking play is lacking in true pass and move and they do not seem to know how to solve the problem. The goals continue to be hard to find.

I have no sentiment when it comes to the success of the team. Evne if Benitez is in charge of this team and had displayed similar lack of nous - I would be similarly disturbed. And I consider Bentiez to be the greatest manager of the club since Dalglish himself in his first phase 20 years odd ago.

I am not sure about whether Dalglish Mark II knows how to solve the problems of the team from what he has displayed so far...

Offline subroc

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2012, 07:01:54 AM »
It's all over the place- I've seen posts today and whenever there's a hint of a suggestion of Kenny being questioned that one should "have a word, it's Kenny", or "you realise who you're talking about here?" In my opinion it has been pretty obvious.

Abuse/disrespect shouldn't be levelled at any Liverpool manager, let alone Kenny. I was uneasy with the way Hodgson was hounded by the end if I'm honest, even though I knew he had to go- I didn't like the way things turned so personal and abusive. But I guess that's how football is; for example if you're a bad player, you're apparently a c*nt/tosser/shithouse rather than just a bad player. Whereas if you're good, you're a God, a King or a Prince. It's funny how things seem to get personal... It's just one of the bullshit things about football supporting culture (when looking at a fanbase as a whole).

We cannot be hypocritical. Hodgson was rightly criticised for his performance at the time. We cannot be treating dalglish as if he is above criticism. All managers must be treated the same when it comes to objective reasoned analysis.

Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 09:52:40 AM »
Good post Degs.

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 10:14:54 AM »
Great OP..

I still feel a lot focus on the money (CL) rather than the silverware, its fine
to criticise a bad performance, but the bigger picture tells a story where we may
actually win the only 2 cup competitions we were in this year..
Now if thats not progression i dont know what is.. Kenny managed us previously
when success was based on silverware and on that basis his 1st years goin well.
All our panic and critique of performances like yesterday will all
be forgotten if KK brings home title 19 next yr.

Offline liverpoolfan1

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 10:19:20 AM »
Fantastic post.  :wave
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Offline John C

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 10:29:25 AM »
I'll be on here fighting for the King because I believe in him and when he gets it right his football is beyond compare but if you don't feel the same way don't be afraid to say why.
I agree entirely, I am more than 100% behind Kenny and people shouldn't harbour any thoughts whatsoever about a change of manager. But you're right, its not blasphemous to highlight that Kenny failed to use either his football knowledge or gravitas of character to affect that performance yesterday. As the manager we expect him to influence our team however much weakened by injury, and get them to do the basics - and that was worrying yesterday, we didn't even do the basic of football in respect to ball retention or fluid attacking as a unit.

Offline kelevra

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 10:52:28 AM »
Brilliant post and a must read.

Kenny has made mistakes this year, namely abandoning our setup that worked so well last year, but I have faith in him and if there is anyone to turn it around, I truly believe it's Kenny
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Offline LFCste1

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 11:26:50 AM »
Fantastic OP. Spot on with pretty much everything. We live in a land of free speech (well, sort of), and I do believe that everyone has the right to praise or criticise Kenny in a rational and balanced manner.

Some of the stuff that was flying around yesterday though was just bile. I just feel we need to reserve our judgment now until the end of the season, get behind Kenny and the team, and make sure we finish on a high now with a couple of cups in our back pocket and 3 trips to Wembley in the memory bank.
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Offline kdorg

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2012, 11:51:36 AM »
My problem is that people really don't know what they're talking about most of the time. They really don't. That's the fundamental problem for me.                        
For example, I have seen people write post after post about Maxi not getting played. A small percentage will make some mention of (if he is fit) in brackets as a proviso before criticising the management, the decisions and doing so with so much heart-felt and in earnest certainty - but the truth is we don't know the full story with Maxi.

If we googled and searched for every possible quote we would find comments from Kenny that suggests Maxi has on-going fitness issues. That he has to be managed a bit like Bellamy. He missed a few games through injury then came back for a couple but played very poorly - he was no longer in the form he'd beeen in prior to the injury. Kenny and Clarkey watch him in training and at present he's not being picked - there will be reasons. Our fans talk as if they know what they are, as if our Manager wants us to lose and as if the motives are almost sinister - he's being driven out etc. Truth is we just don't know the full story but that's not going to stop a vocal section jumping to the worse possible conclusion and spouting off.

We've seen "other Maxi's" other situation where management was criticised for not playing a player - then later we've found out there may have been reasons or factors at play we were unaware of - I don't see anyone starting a thread to say sorry, sorry we wrote two tonne of shite about our management when they might have had good reasons for doing what they did and we will know better than to mouth off when we don't know the full story next time - yeah like fuck.      
                        
How can you expect such opinions to be respected - they are made of dust. They have no facts or substance behind them. Our fans act like a gaggle of fish-wives all shrieking and hissing at any one who wont take their speculation and gossip as gospel.                        
                        
How does the club handle transfers? No one is quite sure, I've really tried to look into this topic and to be honest it is murky as hell. Comolli is on the record saying Player Recruitment is his area and the strategy is his with support from the manager and owners. He made those claims to a University Lecturer who reported them - so not some two bit hack going for a headline. But nevertheless the actual mechanics of each and every signing remains unknown. We know Kenny's influence before becoming permananent Manager was reduced but has that changed now? I expect so. But no one knows for certain. The information is not in the public domain. And ITK's need to fuck off they are just gossips who are clever enough to be convincing imho.                          
                        
Kenny may be the wrong manager, he certainly has and will make mistakes, but right now those criticising and those growing angry that some disregard their criticisms need to realise - you are talking out of your arses some of the time.                        
                        
For example, Kenny doesn't do finance. That we can say for certain. He doesn't negotiate fees, he doesn't write cheques, he doesn't go to FSG and say hey we need to go to 20 million for this player how about it. Not him. Never has been. Never will be. Not his job. Don't know how to say it any clearer. Kenny does not decide how much we will pay for anyone. Last time round Kenny identified who he wanted but PBR went out and did the business. PBR spent the Ian Rush money and wrote the cheques. It is all in Kenny's book.

                     
                        
How it works now is less clear. We don't even know beyond this vague description Kenny's boss Damien Comolli gave of it taking 3 senior staff members to trigger the buying mechanism - exactly how we decide who we will buy - but once we have triggered that mechanism and we do make the approach and begin negotiations and make a deal. Kenny is not on the end of the phone making the offers and counter offers. Negotiations are down to Comolli.

I read post after post moaning about Kenny blowing the money or over-paying - tonnes of goundless irrelevant shit that bears no resemblance to what actually happens at our club. So there is no requirement that people no what the fuck they are talking about, there is no requirement that they don't have an agenda, there is just the requirement that we all agree no one is above criticism and all this shit should be allowed. Oh goodie.                        
                        
Now if you think the wrong team was selected, the tactics were wrong, the subs were too late. Kenny is your man, front and centre, go too it. Criticise away. That's all fair game. But the trouble is 80%+ of the people posting don't criticise Kenny only for those things he's accountable for - they always hurl in a bunch of abuse relating to areas where they either don't know the full story or where Kenny simply isn't solely accountable, if at all.                        
                        
Then it's all "Rita Hayworth style histrionics" - if anyone dare disregard their comments as wind.                        
                        
But if people wont take the time to actually understand the facts, or the lack of and acknowledge they don't know enough to have an opinion - then I don't have to take the opinion seriously or act like it's woth anything. It's not and that has nowt to do with Kenny being above criticism.                  
                        
I could give you more examples, easily. I really could, a huge number of the critical posts on this site are based upon assumption of facts that are unknown to the fans or are actually known to be different to what has been assumed but fans would rather talk than actually read up on the back-ground to things. As a result most of what is posted here only proves that those posting it don't know what they are talking about.

Anyway that was the 10 cents I wanted to add on 'regal infallibility'.
 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 11:56:52 AM by kdorg »

Online The 92A

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2012, 12:08:30 PM »
I have supportd the club as a fan since before Dallgish became manager. So I am "an old fart" by that reckoning.

Oh dear!
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Online The 92A

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Re: Regal Infallibility
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2012, 12:11:58 PM »
Sensible post Degs, enjoyed it.
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