Topic: Charlie Adam - Sensible Discussion.

[stevedo]

I try too.

Might go into the Henderson thread and prise him even though he has been woeful - but yeah he is young.

Oh might check out the Spearing thread and prise him even though he has been woeful of late and runs around like a headless chicken and points - but yeah he is young.

Might check out the Carroll them and prise him even though he can't hit a barn door and is bamby on ice - but yeah he is young.

But yeah Adam is the problem 

Yeah!!!

Fordy, the thing is spinning the wheel of blame achieves nothing, apart from getting player threads locked. The Adam is doing better than Henderson approach only entrenches opinion, suddenly 90% are backing the one player over the other. Each player should be discussed on their merits, bar the caveat of formations, position, how other players interact with them.

[Hazell]

I too believe that he would benefit from a position higher up the pitch more Gerrard-esque. The forward runs, the driving with the ball, the killer balls and even the long range shooting. Surely I can't be the only one who sees the resemblance? The problem is that right now the team doesn't have the defensive balance to support an out and out attacking midfielder does it? Lucas-Spearing might be an option next season if no one comes in, though naturally he will never be able to perform with the same type of athleticism, ability and consistency that Gerrard did.

That's true. Maybe the term would be 'Gerrard-lite' which isn't a criticism of him as Gerrard is (or was) a special player. And actually, to add a bit more balance, those driving runs are another attribute that we could benefit from. But, and this isn't Adam's fault obviously, the CM should have been addressed in the summer, instead of relying on Lucas' fitness, I think we should have brought someone in whose natural game would suit playing in that position. We bought Henderson but then play him on the right (which I can see the benefits of in certain respects) so were left with Lucas and Spearing. Whether the intention was to play Adam/Gerrard in CM or not I don't know but it has turned out that way when it could have been addressed. I'm hoping this summer we sort that out.

[ChristophLFC]

all charlie adam's touches against arsenal    (credit to @kLFCreds)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/B77PK6Gq73o?version=3" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/B77PK6Gq73o?version=3</a>


i lost count to how many times he lost the ball or fell over lol

im pretty sure that is up there with one of the worst individual performance?

[Hazell]

Brilliant, Fordy. Complaining virtually all the time that Adam is a scapegoat and he gets unfairly criticised and then you go and do the same to other players. Do you not see the irony?

[Percito]

However you seem to want to claim to be better than name calling and well educated in your critique, however a kopite might say below lacks any real criticism of the player per se, but is just a vehicle for a piss take and to incite a response that you claim above to dislike. See Below,  As for the fact that Charlie has played for us less than a season maybe regarding that as one lifetime is a little crass dont you think.

 I note also you are vitriolic about Carra or as you childishly put it Mr Liverpool, and also you dont want Kenny here full time.

So I guess you and I are poles apart because you see as someone who also goes to the games as well, I hear people in the stands actually shouting out some of the shit posted on here at players and in Lucas case it ended in some twats booing him. You seem to think there is no link between forums and fans in the ground that is implausible or do you think people are schizoid and can have one mindset in here and a total opposite one at the ground.

For example you think Charlie is shit so you will watch him expecting that, so all his mistakes you will tot up missing the fact that maybe Downing was worse but you missed it because you were too busy looking for Charlie to fuck up

Anyway for evidence of your balanced criticism of a player see below!

And? I suppose 'balanced criticism' of a player means that you have to list all his 'good points' in one column and his 'bad points' in another, taking care to make them roughly even in quantity, as if you were writing a GCSE History essay aged 16? I'll try my hardest. Positives: One of his Hollywood passes comes off every now and then and ends up being excellent, a la the ball to Johnson against Chelsea. He is also extremely, umm, 'enthusiastic'. Though for me, that is more of a negative than a positive in his case, given that is usually ends up in the concession of possession when he charges at the opposition defence thinking he's the lovechild of Leo Messi and Marek Hamsik. And as someone has already said here, his very direct style could conceivably be useful when we're chasing a game at 75 minutes or so, and in that situation his appalling fitness and girth aren't able to play their usual, inevitable, detrimental role.

That's about all I can think of. Which, in summation, means that I don't think he should be anywhere near the starting line-up. I don't see why we can't also amuse ourselves by saying things like, oh I don't know, he has the turning circle of a Suez oil tanker (probably the best one I've seen on this forum, think it was Rossipersempre)? It's actually quite appropriate as a metaphor, given that most of his troubles stem from his slowness of thought in possession and his immobility.

And yes, I thought that appointing Kenny full-time was a mistake when it happened 9 months ago, and I still think it was a mistake. The results and performances have hardly contradicted that belief since then. I don't believe that the constant harking back is what we needed or need, and I don't think his style appropriate to what is required given our supposed ambitions. It's a definite step backwards from Rafa (again, I'm not a Rafa fanboy, but it seems to me that this is a reasonably objective statement). For me, this is evidenced by things such as the Carroll purchase. Not just because it was a painfully expensive 'shit transfer' - anybody and everybody can and does have those - but because of the vary nature of the striker himself, a back-to-goal, 1980's Big Lad throwback staggering around the pitch. That to me is indicative of far deeper issues of managerial philosophy. I don't think it should be heretical for me to hold that opinion, childhood hero or no.

[tucker1984]

im pretty sure that is up there with one of the worst individual performance?

and he was still involved in 2 of our most dangerous moments when suarez hit the post it was him who made the run to set up hendo, and it was him who played the ball in when kuyt hitt the post

im not denying he was poor because he was, but he was still heavily involved in 2 moments that could have swung the match in our favour,

[rossipersiempre]

This still going on - clearly it isn't a sensible discussion it's just clearly picking on one player.

Sad.

I've seen lots of sensible discussion here, but because the majority is rightly critical, you just can't hack it. He really is a lost cause isn't he?

[Matt8Pie]

This still going on - clearly it isn't a sensible discussion it's just clearly picking on one player.

Sad.

Okay, fair enough, some people come in here and don't contribute much to it other than saying he's shit or whatever as I've done a few times and it's annoyed you. I like you Fordy mate but I'm a bit bored of you saying he's done well in every game when he hasn't and playing the scapegoat card when people criticise him. I'll write something tonight which adds to the "sensible discussion" about why I don't rate him and you can give me a reply to it as you see fit.

[rossipersiempre]

im not denying he was poor because he was, but he was still heavily involved in 2 moments that could have swung the match in our favour,

See, it's acceptable for a striker to have a woeful time all match and pop up with one or two moments of footballing clarity, usually finding the net, to detract from his otherwise shite performance - Torres was a classic example - but a CM supposed "playmaker"? He's an agricultural footballer in a role normally reserved for an artisan.

[Brandon@Flowers]

But yeah Adam is the problem 

Out of all the problems in the squad, he's the biggest one. The midfield is the most important part of the game. You win games there, and you can't do that having Adam in the middle. He's the weak link, whether you like it, or is even able to see it, or not.

[subroc]

This was what I wrote in the Comolli thread:-

aurelian made a very good point - the quality of our midfield determines our team's quality in a way that is more far reaching than most other factors. For example, apart from Nunez who was forced on him thanks to the Owen debacle, who was the first major signing that Benitez made? Xabi Alonso. Xabi was little-known in England at the time but was already regarded as one of the best midfielders in La Liga due to his impressive performances for Real Sociedad. He was available for only about 10.5M which may have seemed like a lot to English journalists but which was actually a bargain for a midfielder of his quality.

But with just that one signing, Benitez guaranteed a potentially world class level degree of match intelligence and creativity and metronome as the new heart of his team. Was it also purposeful for him to sign Lucas and begin to mould him to be able one day to replace Xabi in the centre of midfield to be the new heart of the team? I would believe so.

Now, who did Dalglish and Comolli select as the repository of their trust in centre midfield? Charlie Adam - a sometimes impressive and at other times erratic player who is not exactly synonymous with match intelligence. And Henderson, a callow inexperienced MF who was still on his P plates and far from being a player who was already able to control midfield. That is in itself a microcosm of the mistakes that were made by the management team that have led to the problems that we are now facing.

[Fordy]

Out of all the problems in the squad, he's the biggest one. The midfield is the most important part of the game. You win games there, and you can't do that having Adam in the middle. He's the weak link, whether you like it, or is even able to see it, or not.

Total rubbish..

Seriously if you really believe that then you clearly don't understand football.

Our biggest problems is scoring goals - so look at the forwards.

As a team we're creating chances but you won't be able to see that as you're on a one man foolish mission to hammer Adam.

[rossipersiempre]

all charlie adam's touches against arsenal    (credit to @kLFCreds)

If I was Kenny, I'd simply sit him down and make him watch that. It won't change anything of course, but he should at least experience the same pain, frustration and embarrassment the rest of us did.

[flying red]

all charlie adam's touches against arsenal    (credit to @kLFCreds)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/B77PK6Gq73o?version=3" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/B77PK6Gq73o?version=3</a>


i lost count to how many times he lost the ball or fell over lol

Woeful, embarrassingly poor.

Watching the compilation, his first touch often lets him down and he needs too much time. When he played first time it was usually blind and wasted. Those kind of mistakes get missed in the context of a team like Blackpool, but every player who signs for Liverpool goes under the microscope - everything they do is noticed and analysed.

[Brandon@Flowers]

Seriously if you really believe that then you clearly don't understand football.

Coming from Xarlie Adam's #1 fan.
 

[flying red]

Total rubbish..

Seriously if you really believe that then you clearly don't understand football.

Our biggest problems is scoring goals - so look at the forwards.

As a team we're creating chances but you won't be able to see that as you're on a one man foolish mission to hammer Adam.

So how are our forwards going to score goals when the play breaks down in the centre of the park because we're giving the ball away cheaply?

[rossipersiempre]

Total rubbish..

Seriously if you really believe that then you clearly don't understand football.

Our biggest problems is scoring goals - so look at the forwards.

As a team we're creating chances but you won't be able to see that as you're on a one man foolish mission to hammer Adam.

Enough with this condescending shite Fordy.

Yes, we have impotency issues in the final third, but it's also true to say Charlie Adam is tractor diesel in what should be a V8 petrol engine. He's a massive problem all in himself, given the crucial role he occupies. The two problems aren't mutually exclusive you know.

[rossipersiempre]

Actually talking of impotency, I'll go further with the analogy. Yes, our attack is flaccid and unable to get our end away, which is predominantly a physiological problem albeit sometimes with psychological component. In this context however, Charlie Adam is like diabetes or atherosclerotic heart disease.

[ChristophLFC]

Actually talking of impotency, I'll go further with the analogy. Yes, our attack is flaccid and unable to get our end away, which is predominantly a physiological problem albeit sometimes with psychological component. In this context however, Charlie Adam is like diabetes or atherosclerotic heart disease.

i suppose that's one way of putting it 

[Fordy]

So how are our forwards going to score goals when the play breaks down in the centre of the park because we're giving the ball away cheaply?

Not even going to answer that.

But we create chances that for sure.

Maybe Luis should learn to pass the ball to players in better positions to start with.

[Cpt_Reina]

Maybe Luis should learn to pass the ball to players in better positions to start with.

In defence of Adam?

[Fordy]

Okay, fair enough, some people come in here and don't contribute much to it other than saying he's shit or whatever as I've done a few times and it's annoyed you. I like you Fordy mate but I'm a bit bored of you saying he's done well in every game when he hasn't and playing the scapegoat card when people criticise him. I'll write something tonight which adds to the "sensible discussion" about why I don't rate him and you can give me a reply to it as you see fit.

Adam was woeful on Saturday. Thought he was shocking to be honest.

But I am not going to come on here everytime like other to hammer him when overall it was another game we could of won but we couldn't finish.

[Adam_LFC]

Maybe Luis should learn to pass the ball to players in better positions to start with.

Jesus..

[rossipersiempre]

Maybe Luis should learn to pass the ball to players in better positions to start with.

Why stop there? Maybe Kenny should learn to manage tactics better in order to allow Adam the opportunity to look less shite?

[Brandon@Flowers]

Not even going to answer that.

And why is that? Ops, it's because it makes perfectly sense and it's Charlie Adam is a nutshell. Can't keep possession, breaks up plays, takes away the fluidity and, in top of that, is selfish in the final third.

[LiamG]

Out of all the problems in the squad, he's the biggest one. The midfield is the most important part of the game. You win games there, and you can't do that having Adam in the middle. He's the weak link, whether you like it, or is even able to see it, or not.

Hasnt he got the most assists for us this season?

[surfer]

If nothing else, you want Fordy in the trenches with you.

He's like Rocky.

[Fordy]

Jesus..

What? He hardly passes the ball.

Kuyt was in open space but Luis goes for goal and misses.

Luis does that a lot and it's costing us.

[killer_heels]

I think he has been a good signing. He is massively hit or miss but if your one of these that loves your stats then he is good in that department and he wasnt that expensive.

[Jetmir M.]

What? He hardly passes the ball.

Kuyt was in open space but Luis goes for goal and misses.

Luis does that a lot and it's costing us.

And you conveniently leave out when Adam could put Hendo through on goal but instead he thought he was Zidane and tried to dribble through the whole Arse's defence? And this has happened quite a few times this season...

[Cpt_Reina]

What? He hardly passes the ball.

Kuyt was in open space but Luis goes for goal and misses.

Luis does that a lot and it's costing us.

Any comment of Adam's failure to pass to people when they were in much better positions?

Stoke, Fulham and Arsenal this weekend immediately spring to mind. Although there are others.

Im sure you said before he was right to go it himself. One rule for one and another for everyone else?

[Hazell]

What? He hardly passes the ball.

Kuyt was in open space but Luis goes for goal and misses.

Luis does that a lot and it's costing us.

You're heading into choppy waters if you're setting sail for the 'player x doesn't pass to his better placed teammates' argument. The clearest example of that on Saturday was Adam losing the ball instead of even attempting to play Henderson through on goal.

[Quintet]

Charlie adam would actually be better playing on the left, where his sole job would be to wip balls in, bit like beckham did. But don't think he fit or fast enough to last 90 mins in that position. Hes a average/decent player at best and to suggest otherwise you've probably only been watching MOTD.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Charlie Adam. Or perhaps he should be renamed Dirk Adam, or Charlie Kuyt?

Some like him but think he's a massive problem. Some like him and think the problems are elsewhere, others sit in the middle, others simply don't like him.

[Upinsmoke]

Thing is Fordy, Charlie Adam has changed since he started his career here. He seems to be playing with a slightly inflated ego and its been detrimental to his performances on the pitch. Why isnt he doing the things he's capable of. Why is he running at defences trying to skin 5 players (arsenal at the weekend) and just running into them, why is he holding on to the ball needlessly. I dont dispute that charlie adam can pass a ball, so fucking do it! One touch and then play it on, he dawdles and dawdles, he doesnt have the ability to slow the game down and still be effective. When adam played his best football it was at a high tempo, now he's become this deeplying midfielder (not all his own doing i know) that just stagnates the play. Adam is always going to get his fair share of assists because he has the ability to put good balls in. No matter which way you spin it, he is rarely successful taking players on and he would impress me further if he passed when its blatantly obvious to everyone except adam that he should release the ball.

The reason Adam is an issue is because even to somebody who doesnt watch football (my fiancee would be a good example) its so obvious when he makes mistakes because there easily avoidable. This is what annoys me the most, its avoidable. Adam has the ability to rarely give possesion away but he refuses to acknowledge that and instead holds on to the ball for too long which results in attacks breaking down or worst getting hit on the break because of his mistakes.

[geoffstrong]

Fordy dont waste your time, In eleven pages there are less than a dozen with any useful content. The same people did this character assassination with JAR, MOMO,DIRK,LUCAS(many have amnesia over him now),CRAIG first time and even a local young lad like Jay and surprisingly even the new found miracle man Xabi when he went through the very long shit patch that nobody in here seems to remember now!
 They are only doing it to Charlie because Andy wasnt on long enough to slate (although some have tried)  its how they get their rocks off.

As for the selfish in the final third jibe check out Luis for that one if you are that worried about it.

Charlie was bought as a squad member he has played more games than planned with the injuries this season, when Lucas and Stevie are fit or Jonjo and Henderson improve he will play less, but he will still be a good option coming off the bench for us.

That is all anyone should ask of him he wasnt bought so they could sell Albert he plays in Stevies position, he wasnt bought so you could sell Raul he wanted out and Henderson is in his position, he wasnt bought as the next Alonso thats just a tool for his critics to make up so they can beat him with it. He was bought because for the price you have a guy who will do his best every game and can do things sensational at times.

Also he is a sum of the parts in a good team as were players like, Johnstone, Wark, Houghton, etc in Kennys old teams people who will do their best and chip in some good performances but are happy to be a bit part player which is what I believe was intended for him with us, it just hasnt turned out that way this season so lets crucify the lad for it.

[Fordy]

You're heading into choppy waters if you're setting sail for the 'player x doesn't pass to his better placed teammates' argument. The clearest example of that on Saturday was Adam losing the ball instead of even attempting to play Henderson through on goal.

I wouldn't pass to Henderson either.

My grandma has more bottle.

[Jetmir M.]

I wouldn't pass to Henderson either.

Just.... WOW!

That's you guys like you and me don't play for Liverpool F.C. You have an open teammate and you should be professional and feed him the ball, whether he scores or misses... it's another question.

On that basis the whole team shouldn't pass to Adam considering how many time he fucks up and loses the ball in dangerous areas.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

I wouldn't pass to Henderson either.

My grandma has more bottle.

Well done, you've just rendered all your points irrelevant with your pathetic stance on Henderson. You whinge about people complaining about Charlie and him not being given a fair ride, when you're incapable of doing the same thing yourself with Henderson. Brilliant.

[Percito]

I wouldn't pass to Henderson either.

My grandma has more bottle.

Wow! I was wondering when one of the lunatic advocates of our resident Suez LNG tanker would come out with this! Surprised it's taken this long, actually. But that doesn't make it any less pathetic.