Topic: Jordan Henderson

[Our No.9 never dives]

From what I observed, Henderson switches play from one side to other quickly with his one touch passing like Lampard.

Problem is that he does not get the freedom  to get into goal scoring positions like Lampard does.

If you compare the compare the stats for 20 year Lampard (playing for a relegation threatened  West Ham) and 20 year henderson (playing for relegation flirting Sunderlandwhere he had more of free role).The stats is kind of similar:

   Lampard (in 1998-99 season) 38 Appearances   5 Goals   0 Assists
Henderson(in 2010-11 season) 37 Appearances    3 Goals   4 Assists

When does get into Goal scoring positions he has come close enough like the strike against De Gea  that was saved in Anfield and the shot that hit the bar against WBA.

I think he should be given more freedom to go forward especially for counter attacks since his passing is one touch & quick and his vision for setting up chances during is pretty good (see how he sets up Suarez on 1-1 chance against Bolton).

As for all the people who slags on this kid, remember this kid is only 21 and is under tremendous pressure to justify his price tag. It is not his fault that Commoli overpaid for him . 

[Carolina Red]

Been lurking here for a couple years, decided to finally join up. My first post, so be gentle!

The real problem with Henderson isn't whether he's crap or if he's the Second Coming- the issue is, what is his position/role in the team's midfield? There are 4 basic types of midfielders in the modern game:

Defensive Mid: either a destroyer (Mascherano) or volante (Lucas)
Holding/Playmaking Mid: Alonso, Javi Martinez, elderly Scholes
Creative Attacking Mid: a "between the lines" playermaker like Modric, Silva; or a trequartista like Kaka, Totti
Attacking Mid: direct ballsy type like Gerrard, or "flair" wide player like Ronaldo at United

So, what is Henderson's role?

He clearly isn't a defensive midfielder; he has some of the worse stats on the team for tackles, possession duels, possession duels won, ariel duels, and ariel duels won.

Is he an Alsonso type holding midfielder? Not really. He has a good pass % rate, but a pedestrian pass completion % for passes over 15 meters, and below average pass completion % for forward passes over 15 meters.

So, is Henderson an attacking midfielder? He's had around 35 PL games per season for the last three seasons, and has a very, um, pedestrian goal scoring record each season. But as we all know, there's more to being an attacking player than just goals and assists. So...

Is he a creative player? This season, not really, he's averaging less than one "chance created" per game (the supposed strength of his game).

But even beyond that, there is another measure of whether a player is a "danger" player- Fouls Suffered. How often a player is fouled is often a good benchmark for whether they are creating dangerous situations- the player with the most Fouls Suffered in the PL this season is none other than our own Luis Suarez (over 100 Fouls Suffered). Henderson has less than half as many Fouls Suffered as... Stewart Downing, and about as many Fouls Suffered this season as... Lucas.

All in all, my humble opinion is that Henderson is hardly "crap," but is unlikely to develop into a elite Champions League level of player, but could serve a useful role as a higher end, "utility" squad player. That said, I hope I'm wrong!

[cptrios]

Well, for what it's worth I thought he had a pretty rough game, particularly defensively. Looked way too scared of getting stuck in on a tackle. Not that there weren't other players out there who did just as poorly, mind you.

I don't think you can ignore, though, that we played substantially worse after he was brought off. I don't know if that was more due to the inclusion of Downing or the removal of Henderson, but it was the case. Shelvey dropped back and Downing offered nothing in particular.

Also...there are literally millions of us out there who would kill to be able to go to just one match at Anfield. To be lucky enough to do so and to use the occasion to cheer for a freaking 21-year-old being subbed out is in-fucking-furiating.

[Kopitian]

^^

shelvey is never a central midfielder in a million years. The potential in his ability to be somewhat like gerrard is obvious as daylight...i dont really know how hendo will turn out..

The jury's still out on hendo. Some say he'll come good like lucas.. but lucas came from a brazillian back ground.. and needed years to settle in,bulk up, and truly understand the english game.

Here we have a kid thats brought thru  sunderland's academy.. and he still looks like a lost puppy at times...even with all that 1st team experience

[brad147690]

Hopefully next season he finds his feet and gets better.

[helmboy_nige]

Well, for what it's worth I thought he had a pretty rough game, particularly defensively. Looked way too scared of getting stuck in on a tackle. Not that there weren't other players out there who did just as poorly, mind you.

I don't think you can ignore, though, that we played substantially worse after he was brought off. I don't know if that was more due to the inclusion of Downing or the removal of Henderson, but it was the case. Shelvey dropped back and Downing offered nothing in particular.

Also...there are literally millions of us out there who would kill to be able to go to just one match at Anfield. To be lucky enough to do so and to use the occasion to cheer for a freaking 21-year-old being subbed out is in-fucking-furiating.

Completely agree.  It put Shelvey under more pressure to have to drop deeper into a role I don't think he prefers.  Sooner we get Lucas back the better as I think that will give our entire central midfield some freedom.

[Shanks Legacy]

Nah, it came on the point that he was announced as going off, rather than Downing announced as coming on. Any sliver of doubt/hope I may have had was fairly well eliminated by the number of "good, he's shite" themed comments going on around me.

ellly i cant PM due to me still being a scrote on here! just wanted to thankyou for the PM, looks like we are sorted on a coach from kirkby, can't thank you enough for your offer though. lets hope we have a boss day. Thanks again. Kev

[keyo]

Been lurking here for a couple years, decided to finally join up. My first post, so be gentle!

The real problem with Henderson isn't whether he's crap or if he's the Second Coming- the issue is, what is his position/role in the team's midfield? There are 4 basic types of midfielders in the modern game:

Defensive Mid: either a destroyer (Mascherano) or volante (Lucas)
Holding/Playmaking Mid: Alonso, Javi Martinez, elderly Scholes
Creative Attacking Mid: a "between the lines" playermaker like Modric, Silva; or a trequartista like Kaka, Totti
Attacking Mid: direct ballsy type like Gerrard, or "flair" wide player like Ronaldo at United

So, what is Henderson's role?

He clearly isn't a defensive midfielder; he has some of the worse stats on the team for tackles, possession duels, possession duels won, ariel duels, and ariel duels won.

Is he an Alsonso type holding midfielder? Not really. He has a good pass % rate, but a pedestrian pass completion % for passes over 15 meters, and below average pass completion % for forward passes over 15 meters.

So, is Henderson an attacking midfielder? He's had around 35 PL games per season for the last three seasons, and has a very, um, pedestrian goal scoring record each season. But as we all know, there's more to being an attacking player than just goals and assists. So...

Is he a creative player? This season, not really, he's averaging less than one "chance created" per game (the supposed strength of his game).

But even beyond that, there is another measure of whether a player is a "danger" player- Fouls Suffered. How often a player is fouled is often a good benchmark for whether they are creating dangerous situations- the player with the most Fouls Suffered in the PL this season is none other than our own Luis Suarez (over 100 Fouls Suffered). Henderson has less than half as many Fouls Suffered as... Stewart Downing, and about as many Fouls Suffered this season as... Lucas.

All in all, my humble opinion is that Henderson is hardly "crap," but is unlikely to develop into a elite Champions League level of player, but could serve a useful role as a higher end, "utility" squad player. That said, I hope I'm wrong!

falling into the trap of pigeon holing a player whilst he is still developing....bit like lucas was a box-to-box midfielder before he joined us....or gerrard was an all-action box-tobox midfielder when younger and now is only an attacking midfielder

how do you categorise lampard?  or ramires?  or wilshere?  or ...........

henderson is a pass and move player....he moves the ball quickly and efficiently, and, at his best, is a massive bundle of energy who gets all over the pitch, pressuring the ball when we haven't got it and roviding support and options when we do

we have performed poorly this season generally, and we have slunk deeper into our own half we have pressed less, leaving our attackers isolated....start of the season we pressed higher up the pitch, were more compact and you saw better things from henderson (and adam and downing) as they were doing their thing in the opposition half.....henderson is particularly good at breaking when we win the ball back....and it seems to be these days that it is then that is the only time he breaks ahead of the ball....his instincts taking over.....when he is in play normally he appears less inclined to gamble and uncertain of his rle and what he should do

certainly as he develops i think we will see more of his linking work between midfield and attack as he progresses his attacking instincts

[petrichor]

reminds me of alonso whenever i see him play, that no. 14 shirt

[harleydanger]

Been lurking here for a couple years, decided to finally join up. My first post, so be gentle!

The real problem with Henderson isn't whether he's crap or if he's the Second Coming- the issue is, what is his position/role in the team's midfield? There are 4 basic types of midfielders in the modern game:

Defensive Mid: either a destroyer (Mascherano) or volante (Lucas)
Holding/Playmaking Mid: Alonso, Javi Martinez, elderly Scholes
Creative Attacking Mid: a "between the lines" playermaker like Modric, Silva; or a trequartista like Kaka, Totti
Attacking Mid: direct ballsy type like Gerrard, or "flair" wide player like Ronaldo at United

Don't buy this for a minute.

[The 5th Benitle]

Don't know if I'm the only one, but he reminded me of a young Seedorf out there today.

Getting more and more dull these. Nobody laughs, so why post them?

[Carolina Red]

falling into the trap of pigeon holing a player whilst he is still developing....bit like lucas was a box-to-box midfielder before he joined us....or gerrard was an all-action box-tobox midfielder when younger and now is only an attacking midfielder

how do you categorise lampard?  or ramires?  or wilshere?  or ...........

henderson is a pass and move player....he moves the ball quickly and efficiently, and, at his best, is a massive bundle of energy who gets all over the pitch, pressuring the ball when we haven't got it and roviding support and options when we do

we have performed poorly this season generally, and we have slunk deeper into our own half we have pressed less, leaving our attackers isolated....start of the season we pressed higher up the pitch, were more compact and you saw better things from henderson (and adam and downing) as they were doing their thing in the opposition half.....henderson is particularly good at breaking when we win the ball back....and it seems to be these days that it is then that is the only time he breaks ahead of the ball....his instincts taking over.....when he is in play normally he appears less inclined to gamble and uncertain of his rle and what he should do

certainly as he develops i think we will see more of his linking work between midfield and attack as he progresses his attacking instincts

I'm not trying to pidgeonhole him, I'm just asking what is his position?

He doesn't seem to be an attacking player, since he doesn't score goals, make assists, create chances, or make dangerous moves that result in getting fouled.

He's not a holding or defensive midfielder, since he has very poor numbers when it comes to tackling, winning possession duels, winning aerial duels, or completing passes over 15 yards.

So what is his position again?

[Carolina Red]

Don't buy this for a minute.

Fair enough, always open to discussion. What other midfield positions are there?

[rusty-la]

Getting more and more dull these. Nobody laughs, so why post them?

If there were any great insight I'd read his stuff.

But he just recycles the same old shite day after day. He's not the only one (Aurelian)

At least we've spared Chelsea from two more plastic fans.

[The 5th Benitle]

But he just recycles the same old shite day after day. He's not the only one (Aurelian, Fordy, MassDriver, others)

Edited.

[kvarmeismydad]

I like Jordan. He needs time.

[NigelManx]

I like Jordan. He needs time.

Me too...He's young and under so much pressure. Does anyone on here really believe he doesnt want to do well..of course he does and given a little time he will do well
 just remember  what happened with Lucas and what we now miss when he's not played

[Johnny Foreigner]

Edited.

With all due respect, there has been numerous posts with relatively detailed arguments on henderson obvious weaknesses on being a CM for liverpool (on general terms and on match specific analysis)

The counter argument has been "tidy passer, good engine, nice attitude" and "lucas came good" in very broad terms..

Fair enough if we want to piss away also the next ten years in league averageness against some kind of super fan status,...

Would rafa sign and play him ? god knows, but i'm free to speculate..

[geoffstrong]

With all due respect, there has been numerous posts with relatively detailed arguments on henderson obvious weaknesses on being a CM for liverpool (on general terms and on match specific analysis)

The counter argument has been "tidy passer, good engine, nice attitude" and "lucas came good" in very broad terms..

Fair enough if we want to piss away also the next ten years in league averageness against some kind of super fan status,...

Would rafa sign and play him ? god knows, but i'm free to speculate..

last time I looked Rafa isnt signing anyone here why bring him into it, but seeing as you did was every signing of his a success then?

when anyone uses stuff like superfan the credibility in their posts vanishes in my opinion.

Also to get back to the lad he is the best signing last summer for this clubs long term future.

[zamagiure]

Hope he starts tomorrow.

[Brentie]

Need 11 warriors and players not scared of the shirt they're wearing tomorrow, so I hope he doesnt start.

[The 5th Benitle]

Need 11 warriors and players not scared of the shirt they're wearing tomorrow, so I hope he doesnt start.

FFS give it a rest.

[geoffstrong]

FFS give it a rest.

Its not just me that thinks this, he needs a room with Fordy. we should play our best team and at the moment he is part of that team.

[Crosby Nick]

Is it too much to ask we could get behind ALL of our players the night before an FA Cup Final?

We have all summer for post mortems and talk of what needs to be improving.

[The 5th Benitle]

Is it too much to ask we could get behind ALL of our players the night before an FA Cup Final?

Evidently it is.

[Ryan M]

Is it too much to ask we could get behind ALL of our players the night before an FA Cup Final?

We have all summer for post mortems and talk of what needs to be improving.

Don't give a fuck mate I'm singing my head off tomorrow to back every one of our boys! Chelsea are a decent team so they will need as much help as possible from us, the fans!

[Brentie]

Hundreds of posts of people sayin they dont want the likes of Carra or Downing to start and noone says a word.

He's really become an untouchable on here.

If he plays, hope he plays a blinder and I get tons of abuse. But I pray he doesnt play.

[geoffstrong]

Hundreds of posts of people sayin they dont want the likes of Carra or Downing to start and noone says a word.

He's really become an untouchable on here.

If he plays, hope he plays a blinder and I get tons of abuse. But I pray he doesnt play.

Well given Agger and Skrtel are a better option than Carra that a logical point, given Downing hasn't delivered another logical point, however Henderson is our best option for now, with Lucas and Adam out and Shelvey cannot play there so that leaves wasting Gerrard in a position that is too deep for him to be as effective.

But tell me who would you play instead of him and what formation would you use.

[Brentie]

Well given Agger and Skrtel are a better option than Carra that a logical point, given Downing hasn't delivered another logical point, however Henderson is our best option for now, with Lucas and Adam out and Shelvey cannot play there so that leaves wasting Gerrard in a position that is too deep for him to be as effective.

But tell me who would you play instead of him and what formation would you use.

Gerrard played pretty well in central midfield last season at SB. I'd rather he partner Spearing with Maxi, Bellamy and Kuyt dovetailing around Suarez like they did in the 2-1 win earlier on in the season in London.

Leave Henderson on the bench. He gave us energy when he came off the bench in the 2-1 again. Use him in the last 20 minutes if you need him.

[geoffstrong]

Gerrard played pretty well in central midfield last season at SB. I'd rather he partner Spearing with Maxi, Bellamy and Kuyt dovetailing around Suarez like they did in the 2-1 win earlier on in the season in London.

Leave Henderson on the bench. He gave us energy when he came off the bench in the 2-1 again. Use him in the last 20 minutes if you need him.

given his performance against Fulham I dont want Jay on the pitch, so different strokes.

[aurelian]

Leave Henderson on the bench. He gave us energy when he came off the bench in the 2-1 again. Use him in the last 20 minutes if you need him.

We don't just need energy.  We need energy + quality.

[Brentie]

given his performance against Fulham I dont want Jay on the pitch, so different strokes.

You'd play Henderson next to who then? You just sai you wouldnt play Jay nor Shelvey and you want Gerrard off Suarez.

Who's Henderson's partner then?

[aurelian]

Hundreds of posts of people sayin they dont want the likes of Carra or Downing to start and noone says a word.

He's really become an untouchable on here.

If he plays, hope he plays a blinder and I get tons of abuse. But I pray he doesnt play.

He offers absolutely nothing right now.

But it's okay because in three years he'll be like Xavi.

or something.

If you disagree you know nothing about football.

But, we have to have 11 players on the pitch, so....

[geoffstrong]

You'd play Henderson next to who then? You just sai you wouldnt play Jay nor Shelvey and you want Gerrard off Suarez.

Who's Henderson's partner then?

although Shelvey isnt a CM I would play him there with Henderson rather than Jay let them worry about us going forward and then as happened a bit with the Norwich game he can interchange with Stevie, because Stevie in a free role is the way to go,

So although a loath these things you have
                                                                     Reina
                  Glen                        Skrtel                         Agger                   Enrique/ Aurelio?
                 Kuyt/Maxi ?                Henderson                Shelvey                 Bellamy/Maxi?
                                                                      Gerrard
                                                              Suarez

But its Kenny's choice he may want Andy and Downing in the team?  with one caveat I would like to see Sterling on the bench?

[OrangeMochaFraps]

Thought he did well today.  Needs to work on his shooting all summer.  Non stop shooting practice.

Seriously.

[Hazell]

Thought he was one of our better players but yeah, definitely should look to improving his shooting.

[Cpt_Reina]

definitely needs should look to improving his shooting.

Absolutely.

[liverpooll]

Well, he had to play and start today as there was no other central midfielder option available. But that cannot be an excuse for what was a bad performance.

[Nin]

Thought he was one of our better players but yeah, definitely needs should look to improving his shooting.

But, I thought his role isn't to shoot but just to pass it sideways and keep it simple?

[Legendary_Nines]

Well, he had to play and start today as there was no other central midfielder option available. But that cannot be an excuse for what was a bad performance.

There was a certain Jonjo Shelvey....