Topic: Rangers In Liquidation... Sevco5088 in... SFL3 (for now)

[helen the llama]

From what I have heard:

The money for NIC and PAYE was taken from the wages.
It just wasn't passed on to HMRC.

When redundancies are announced people will suffer and it will be the admin staff etc.

[RojoLeón]

From what I have heard:

The money for NIC and PAYE was taken from the wages.
It just wasn't passed on to HMRC.

When redundancies are announced people will suffer and it will be the admin staff etc.

Is sad, no doubt. Maybe they will find jobs in future - hopefully jobs that aren't bankrolled by bigotry, hate and corruption.

[PIPA23]

Not a Rangers fan but it's bad news for Scottish football IMO.

[Alan_X]

If you want to discuss Rangers going into administration feel free. Anything else please fuck off or you'll be on holiday until after the Cup Final.

[karl1987]

Someone mentioned before the thread got hijacked that Rangers could re enter the SPL under a different name. I always thought they would have to start from scratch in the bottom league. Is it possible for them to go straight back into the SPL?, I couldnt see Celtic being happy with that as it would mean Rangers would be completely debt free and in a much stronger position than before.

[thekitkatshuffler]

Anyone watch them closely? Is there anyone at all we can snatch off them?

Nope.  Everton beat us to it.

Not that anyone will notice until they sell him to someone else and he starts banging in the goals.

[ghirl67]

Someone mentioned before the thread got hijacked that Rangers could re enter the SPL under a different name. I always thought they would have to start from scratch in the bottom league. Is it possible for them to go straight back into the SPL?, I couldnt see Celtic being happy with that as it would mean Rangers would be completely debt free and in a much stronger position than before.

The SPL clubs would vote on it.  Would expect Celtic to say no.  Have been told 3 other clubs have already indicated they would say no.  If they don't get the votes they need (think they need 10 out of the 11) they would have to apply to be put into the third division.  It wouldn't just be the Celtic supporters unhappy about it.  Aberdeen and Hibs fans have been going mad about the thought of them getting away with what you suggest... and they are probably not the only ones. 



This was in reply to your earlier post which appears to have been deleted. 

Attacting players.  There is always going to be an element of that but pretty much everyone agrees that the decline of Scottish football started when buying overseas became regularity rather than an occurrence.  Over the last few years a greater emphasise has been put by individual clubs and more recently the SFA on grass roots to benefit the entire country.  That is not something that will magically work overnight but in 5 - 10 years time may help reduce the need to "attract" players.   That being long term.

I've tried thinking how to word the following differently as some may take it the wrong way but can't.  So i am not trying to start an argument or be confrontational.  IMO we are facing a problem and we have to adapt and people should have (i know Celtic have) prepared for it. 

Short term, rangers can't help themselves never mind anyone else.  The rest of the league has to carry on while rangers sort themselves out.  It is up to the people in charge at those clubs to make the best of this situation.  The league can't just stop because rangers are in trouble. We can't be looking to them and saying we need them because the next few years is going to be hard on them.   No club should need rangers in the sense of how they run their own clubs.   It has been no secret in financial circles of the problems at rangers.  If spl clubs were not preparing for this, then i would deffinitely accuse them of negligence to their fans. 

Rangers will be back in some way but it will be difficult for them for a while.  Everyone else is just going to have to adapt whilst rangers find their feet.   

[karl1987]

Suppose we will just have to see what happens, gonna be an interesting few years for SPL football thats for sure.  Just a pity that Rangers as club is in its current position because of the sheer idiocy/inept actions from its previous owner/board members.  HMRC should be chasing them for the money as they were the ones that made the decisions that has resulted in all this.

[Tepid water]

If Rangers do fold and reform, then surely they would have to be allowed back into the SPL as a new rangers?


The sky contract is dependent on having both rangers and Celtic in the league, if they go, there is no more sky contract.... what would replace it would be much smaller by comparison.  Couple that with the loss of rangers fans at other SPL grinds and there would be an enormous financial hit on the other SPL clubs which may be fatal for some of them....



Turkeys vote for Xmas?  Can't see it myself

[ghirl67]

If Rangers do fold and reform, then surely they would have to be allowed back into the SPL as a new rangers?


The sky contract is dependent on having both rangers and Celtic in the league, if they go, there is no more sky contract.... what would replace it would be much smaller by comparison.  Couple that with the loss of rangers fans at other SPL grinds and there would be an enormous financial hit on the other SPL clubs which may be fatal for some of them....



Turkeys vote for Xmas?  Can't see it myself

The vote falls to the other clubs.    As i understand it the sky contract can exist without rangers, wouldn't be at the same level but would still be there. 

Other fans seem confident they could fill their ground if a weakened rangers gives them a better chance of moving to a european place.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/fua2f5 -
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/why-scotland-doesnt-need-rangers/

Abeerdeen fan views on surviving without a dominant rangers. 

It is hard to judge exactly how long this will affect rangers but we are not talking forever.   

[Gifted Right Foot]

sorry if this has been asked but what happens to the table standings?  what happens to previous results against them and teams who were meant to play them again?  really cant believe this is happening to such a major club over there. 

[helen the llama]

So everyone is clear on this, there are two tax bills floating around at the moment. One for £9 million from the Take Over in May until now (the relevant amounts have been taken from Player Wages etc) and the EBT one which is awaiting a tribunal decision.

Ok the general consesus is that rangers won't face liquidation over the 2011/12 so far Tax Bill. This is the £9 Million bill.

However should the £75 million+ (EBT) tribunal be lost, that shall be when liquidation is a real threat.

[helen the llama]

sorry if this has been asked but what happens to the table standings?  what happens to previous results against them and teams who were meant to play them again?  really cant believe this is happening to such a major club over there. 

At the moment as Rangers are in Administration it has been a 10 pt deduction.
If they aren't out of Administration by 31st March (only 6 weeks and with HMRC holding a large say in any CVA might not be likely) then either the team finishing second or if Rangers are 2nd, the team finishing 3rd (Motherwell/ Hearts/St Johnstone) will get the 2nd Champions league place.

[ghirl67]

At the moment as Rangers are in Administration it has been a 10 pt deduction.
If they aren't out of Administration by 31st March (only 6 weeks and with HMRC holding a large say in any CVA might not be likely) then either the team finishing second or if Rangers are 2nd, the team finishing 3rd (Motherwell/ Hearts/St Johnstone) will get the 2nd Champions league place.

They also don't have audited accounts which are required for a European licence. 

[Gifted Right Foot]

^ thanks

[KERRYKOP]

Probably been asked already, but what happens to all they're Honors if they disband and form a new team?

[Azi]

As for the tv money.  I have said for a while given the interest in seeing SPL football on the tv we may be better off without a tv deal.  Is it better to have half empty stadiums on tv or would it be better to have full stadiums not on tv?  Azi how much to Motherwell make from the tv deal?
 

i heard figures of around 900k but not entirely sure as in accounts tv deals also show cup runs aswell for each extra game we see on sky we get paid 82.5k for espn but i know we dont budge of that we budget for a 11th placed finish plus knocked out in first round of both games with no sales of players so imo we could survive without it but it would make it harder for two seasons in a row we have had to fork out for a new pitch costing us 250k  each time so had we not spent it we would have had cash sitting there put in a better way say we were to get 4 cup games at home all on tv that would cover any losses from not playing rangers

From what I have heard:

The money for NIC and PAYE was taken from the wages.
It just wasn't passed on to HMRC.

When redundancies are announced people will suffer and it will be the admin staff etc.

you know a few years ago id say motherwell had a similar type of conveyor belt untill celtic stole our youth team coach and stealing our younger players while at it but look how that turned out eh (yep aimed at you paul slane ya little shite  )

also  apparently since Whyte came in Tax and NIC have been deducted from Ibrox salaries - but haven't been handed over to the Revenue yet now although you can pay this at the end of the tax year a few folk think he has also gambled with that in the hope that should they go belly up they will only have to pay 20p to £

posted it a few weeks back in the spl thread the more and more that  is coming out points in the  direction that its been a planned move

[Azi]

Probably been asked already, but what happens to all they're Honors if they disband and form a new team?

nothing will happen once they disband that will be the end of it what they have won will always be in the record books anythinh they win in years to come will be under a different name

[KERRYKOP]

nothing will happen once they disband that will be the end of it what they have won will always be in the record books anythinh they win in years to come will be under a different name

As much as I dislike Rangers its sad to see that happen to the good and genuine supporters they have. I assume they'll move back into Ibrox and keep a chunk of the same players, academy all that stuff our will it literally be year zero?

[Azi]

If Rangers do fold and reform, then surely they would have to be allowed back into the SPL as a new rangers?


The sky contract is dependent on having both rangers and Celtic in the league, if they go, there is no more sky contract.... what would replace it would be much smaller by comparison.  Couple that with the loss of rangers fans at other SPL grinds and there would be an enormous financial hit on the other SPL clubs which may be fatal for some of them....



Turkeys vote for Xmas?  Can't see it myself

if rangers go bust then your right then sky have the right to renogiate the contract which makes you go crazy as essentially that meant when all the clubs agreed to it that neither the old firm could be relegated and if the worst of the worse was to happen the sfa could step in and  keep them in the league   

[helen the llama]

I assume they'll move back into Ibrox and keep a chunk of the same players, academy all that stuff our will it literally be year zero?

Urm not a simple as that. The new rangers cannot appear as phoenix club, any phoenix club = HMRC chase for money owed. Especially as the will not agree to CVA.

[Azi]

As much as I dislike Rangers its sad to see that happen to the good and genuine supporters they have. I assume they'll move back into Ibrox and keep a chunk of the same players, academy all that stuff our will it literally be year zero?

it depends what happens its too early to speculate really but like a posted earlier theres two roads which i can see them going down

im actually starting to think Craig White is an unethical and immoral genius.

Buy Rangers including their debts and tax responsibility for £1.
Borrow money from TicketUs secured against future club profits.
Use that to pay off the bank debt.
Fire club into administration, making himself a preferential creditor.
Club lose tax case and are liquidated.
He gets his initial investment back.
HMRC/TicketUs et al, receive dividend from club assets and are legally paid off.

RFC are reborn under a new company (two new businesses were registered with Company House under varients of the Rangers name towards the end of last year)

That leaves Craig Whyte in a situation where he is the owner of a 100% debt-free Rangers Football Club (or a varient of), which once everything is done and dusted has cost him the grand total of one pound.

Which he will then sell. Pure profit for his pocket.

And also, lets imagine they are liquidated and have to start again as a new entity in the 3rd division.

In 5 years time, what league will Celtic be in, and what will their finances be like?
In 5 years time, what league will Rangers be in, and what will their finances be like?

If the Rangers fans can look past the loss of their "history" (which in the grand scheme of things doesn't and shouldn't really mean anything apart from pride and gloating purposes), then this could transform and revolutionise the club. Whereas while Rangers are starting from scratch and building themselves up over the next few years, Celtic are in millions of pounds worth of debt with no way of paying it off, which will only increase as their income during this same time will absolutely plummet due to the lack of Rangers/competition/appeal. 5 years time we have Rangers in the SPL, same fanbase, still at Ibrox and operating on a stable financial footing possibly turning a profit, while Celtic are in multi-millions of pounds worth of debt and no way to serve or sustain it.

Im starting to see this as all being potentially extremely clever, and in the long run could fuck Celtic rather than Rangers. Take Motherwell and Hearts over the last 10 years since we went into administration as the comparison, and it's essentially a bigger and more complicated version of what's happened to those two in relation to each other In some ways Motherwell going into administration was one of the best things that ever happened to us and we've been pretty successful ever since. This idea that the Rangers giant is going to crumble and fall is pure pie in the sky stuff - they will come out of this stronger, not weaker

[Azi]

Urm not a simple as that. The new rangers cannot appear as phoenix club, any phoenix club = HMRC chase for money owed. Especially as the will not agree to CVA.

helen am i wrong in saying if rangers were to go into liquidation thats the end of the matter for HMRC ? its only if they stay in administration they can get their hands on some assets?

[KERRYKOP]

Urm not a simple as that. The new rangers cannot appear as phoenix club, any phoenix club = HMRC chase for money owed. Especially as the will not agree to CVA.

Obviously on a much smaller scale, but the exact same thing happened to Cork City a few years ago. The fans formed a new side called Cork City FORAS who played at Cork City's Turners Cross ground. Within a couple of years the same company that owned the original Cork City bought up the rights of FORAS and Cork City FC was reborn again.

[helen the llama]

helen am i wrong in saying if rangers were to go into liquidation thats the end of the matter for HMRC ? its only if they stay in administration they can get their hands on some assets?

Not anymore
What HMRC see's as a phoenix company

[helen the llama]

double post

[Azi]

Not anymore
What HMRC see's as a phoenix company

that would only apply if craig whyte remained tho ?

say david murray was to create the new rangers and buy ibrox.....

[thejbs]

Scotland has 2 cl spots don't they? Big opportunity for other teams if rangers aren't there

[Y2J]

Scotland has 2 cl spots don't they? Big opportunity for other teams if rangers aren't there

That was 3,4 years ago mate. Now they have half a spot.

[scatman]

It's sad for the league in general really, I can't believe Whyte has been allowed to get away with this, wasnt he supposed to be the white knight in shining armour?

[Tepid water]

It's sad for the league in general really, I can't believe Whyte has been allowed to get away with this, wasnt he supposed to be the white knight in shining armour?

I can't condone not paying the PAYE since he took over, but this has clearly been his plan all along.

To be fair to Whyte, he didn't cause the problem, but he is trying to solve it.

Now, you or I may think his method of doing this is downright immoral, but, it would essentially see Rangers debt free.  There is a heavy price to pay for this, but maybe it's good for rangers in the medium to long term?

[Red Beret]

If Rangers have to reform then surely they would have to start at the bottom of the pile?  They couldn't just be let back into the SPL?  That will do nobody any good, no matter if the club is debt free or not.

[helen the llama]

That was 3,4 years ago mate. Now they have half a spot.

2 spots in QR 3

[scatman]

2 spots in QR 3

It becomes 1 spot next season no? I thought the Belgians had overtaken your coefficient?

actually i just checked 3 leagues have overtaken the Scots, it's one champs league place in 2013/2014.

as a club Liverpool have dropped 5 places and are now out of the top seeds.

[kevlumley]

Anyone watch them closely? Is there anyone at all we can snatch off them?

Harry Kewell?

[hansen6]

So the mortgaged revenue from the future season ticket sales didn't go into Rangers account!. The mystery deepens..

[Tepid water]

So the mortgaged revenue from the future season ticket sales didn't go into Rangers account!. The mystery deepens..

Are we sure about that? It was claimed that the money from them was secured against some of Whytes other companies.  If it has gone, maybe it's an attempt to ring fence it from creditors?

Interesting (and frankly unlikely) that there's interest in buying rangers.....(according to the auditors).

No one in there right mind would buy Them at the moment

[ghirl67]

that would only apply if craig whyte remained tho ?

say david murray was to create the new rangers and buy ibrox.....

Whyte can't now serve as a director of a football club for 5 years.   HMRC will be chasing money every which way they can.  The sums don't add up - there is money not accounted for.  So where is it?  HMRC will be keeping a close eye on everything Whyte does.    Newco suddenly receiving a cash injection from anywhere would have HMRC scrambling like mad. 

The interesting one for me is King being removed as a director just before rangers go into admin.  HMRC will know the South African tax authorities had problems with King. 

The FSA are also now involved in relation to Whyte's funding of the takeover. 

[hansen6]

Are we sure about that? It was claimed that the money from them was secured against some of Whytes other companies.  If it has gone, maybe it's an attempt to ring fence it from creditors?

Interesting (and frankly unlikely) that there's interest in buying rangers.....(according to the auditors).

No one in there right mind would buy Them at the moment

David Whitehouse of Duff and Phelps said they did not have "visibility" of where the money had gone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17067141

I'd be worried if I was a Rangers fan, the accounts weren't signed off, the taxman wasn't paid twice.

[Terry De Niro]

David Whitehouse of Duff and Phelps said they did not have "visibility" of where the money had gone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17067141

I'd be worried if I was a Rangers fan, the accounts weren't signed off, the taxman wasn't paid twice.

The plot thickens..