Author Topic: Do we over-pass the ball ?... well do we ? .. when we get close to their goal ??  (Read 3508 times)

Offline hixxstar

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • RAWK Supporter - Dont Worry I'm From The Internet
I know it's late, & i have searched for a relevent post (non found)... so delete me if found fit..... sorry mods as i know you are already busy.
i love my team with a passion, a passion that burns.. i'm 47.... and when 13/14yrs had my hair ruffled by keegan while emlyn hughes called me 'big lad' ! .. don't ask
also was 'caught' by Bob Paisley looking at his team sheet at the training ground prior to shooting at the shooting boxes/boards.... therefore i have the right to voice my opinion
Back on topic-lately, well not just lately i see 'us' over passing when we get close or close-ish to the opposition goal,... 1-2- 4 or 5 passes then back to were we were ?
i understand about pass & move, keep posession ect... but we over do it too much for me  at the momement, like no-one will take 'it' on..... Gerrard will, but the rest look around waiting for affermation !
i am in no way knocking my beloved team... never, kill me first. i just feel that the forward, attack side of my(our) team is lacking the killer instinct ? 3,4 passes then back to pepe.. big hoof ....  hopeful
I see carroll in our half somtimes winning a tackle ! should never be there, ever, then pass,pass diamonds-obvious.... sometimes, it's like you cant take it on, on your own-not allowed !... must pass.
my first date with my missus was home to the gunners 93/94 (romantic i know) fowler hat-trick in 5 mins... 1st goal-yeah-2ndwow-3rd ..she looked at me and i could'nt hear her.... you feel me.. do you.. she is lfc mad now.
so... do you feel we are over passing at the moment ?..... are we losing the the 'killer' touch/through ball.. ? .. pass, move through the middle, obvious wing-cross... hopeful header ?
me, i just feel we over-pass the ball, not direct enough.... take a chance, use skill & a little luck maybe ? .. dont kill me for speaking my mind, it's just my opinion... God i love my team.... Hixx.

"Success is never Final.  Failure is never Fatal.  It is Courage that counts. - Winston Churchill

Offline Z e u s

  • Greek God of Whinging. But for the good of the forum! Son of Moanus and Rhea.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,413
I think we under pass it if anything.  If a counter attack is on - sure go direct and for the killer ball.

But if not, we seem to just go wide and put cross after cross in.  When we challenged for the title under Benitez, we kept the ball brilliantly and were constantly probing. 

Offline hixxstar

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • RAWK Supporter - Dont Worry I'm From The Internet
I think we under pass it if anything.  If a counter attack is on - sure go direct and for the killer ball.

But if not, we seem to just go wide and put cross after cross in.  When we challenged for the title under Benitez, we kept the ball brilliantly and were constantly probing.
Yeah true too, maybe i'm still in spurs after-shock.... maybe season after-shock... i want so much to let teams know.. we are LiverPool, be afraid, be so..... you know.
but we get predictable atm... i can call the moves before it happens... i don't want too.. i want a wave of footbal attack.. make teams back-pedal in fear !
"Success is never Final.  Failure is never Fatal.  It is Courage that counts. - Winston Churchill

Offline indelible

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
i think we're over crossing....the ball goes way over andy's head most of the time, especially enrique's passes
lol

Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

  • No more scrapping in Page Moss. Marxist.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,947
  • Hasta La Victoria Siempre....
i think we're over crossing....the ball goes way over andy's head most of the time, especially enrique's passes
lol

That's not a cross though.

We don't cross the ball in a true sense of the word. We pump it into the box aimlessly, usually with one body in the box, meaning the ball ha to be perfect.

The best cross seen recently was by fat Charlie against Wolves, and Andy put it away.
"I'm a people man. Only the people matter".
-Bill Shankly.

Offline RedFromNZ

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 133
The best cross seen recently was by fat Charlie against Wolves, and Andy put it away.

That necessary?

Offline Dave_Rob7

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
  • build Liverpool into a bastion of Invincibility
    • http://twitter.com/#!/DavidRoberts40
Id prefer over passing to constantly lumping the field up field, we are playing good football up to the final 3rd off the pitch, where we cant seem to get the ball into the box, it looks like is all to do with self confidence. Downing can turn good and i was noticing at the spurs game that we where very predicable on the left side with bellamy and johnson always cutting on to their right foot, but I do see it clicking the team are showing signs of it.
“Our idea is to pass teams to a standstill so they can no longer come after you. Eventually you wear them down.”
-Brendan Rodgers

http://twitter.com

Offline Dentron

  • Eastenders Sci-Fi Spinoff
  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Most of our passes in the final third seem to come from the flanks in the form of floated balls to Andy Carroll, who, like everyone else in the box, is completely static by the time the ball is served, and has to battle multiple CBs who are just as big as him. Zero creativity. We can't attack up the middle because our one midfield player that goes forward, Charlie Adam, is perpetually behind the play. When Gerrard comes forward, chances are created from the middle of the field, but we are often exposed on the counter almost immediately.

We don't over-pass, we just have a faulty system that sees our passes floating innocuously in from the flanks.

Whether that's a systematic problem or the result of personnel incapable of anything else is debatable.

Offline ARI

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 91
I don't think it's so much that we over or underpass as much as we cede too much in midfield when defending.

Bear with me while I try to explain my thoughts on this.

Under Rafa we put so much pressure on the opposition right from the striker, in the opponent
s half, all the way down, much like how Rush was utilised under Paisley, hunting in packs we used to call it. In basketball it's like the full court press - extremely suffocating for the opposition and demanding for the team implementing it. We used to win the ball so high up the pitch under Sir Bob and Rafa that by the time we had the ball the opponent was out of position to close the gaps and would end up conceding a goal. And sometimes we also played on the counter depending on the opponent,venue, etc.

But now it appears that not only don't we pressure enough upfront we also seem to go into a shell when the ball gets into our half. Maybe part of it is probably due to Lucas' absence but even so I still feel that when he was around, the midfield, when defending, was sitting too deep.

It was not so bad when he was around because his break-up play and distribution was fantastic but now it appears we're far deeper. Also he reads the game well and could direct and instruct players around him. Whilst Lucas was trusted as a 1man demo-derby, it appears it takes an extra player to do the job of one person whilst he's away.

This means that when we attack we need to run more because a lot of times the ball is dispossessed in our territory yet with the exception of very few players we don't have the speed which makes it a lot easier for the attacking play to break down, and probably also why we never have enough bodies in the box.

This also probably explains why when we try to build up play from the back the opposition had already managed to close any gap that we could and should have exploited had we the mental and physical speed. That's also why I think we also see the players circulating the ball just inside the opposition's half trying to find gaps that are not there, especially at home, due to the lack of movement and speed.

The two players who could be counted on to do the leg work are now in their 30s, Kuyt and Craig Douglas Bellamy. Carroll practically does nothing but run in circles and compete in the air. Even his hold up play is poor, which means its difficult to get players to play around him as opposed to how Torres and even Crouch used to do for us.

Suarez meanwhile is forced to go deep to get balls and as such his energy is channeled into getting the ball as opposed to attacking the space and playing closer to goal. Much like how Rush suffered in Juventus because he was asked to play deeper and participate in defending deeper which took away his explosiveness and proximity to goal.Maybe that's also why Luis' conversion rate is so poor as by the time he is close to goal he's already tired out. Even Messi was asked to limit his run towards goal to less than 40 metres for him to have better impact closer to goal, according to Cruyff.

I hope this is more of a teething problem as we transition into a team that Rafa and Sir Bob would be proud of but for that to happen we need to take a fresher look at our tactics and positioning.

Saying that these are just my observations and I would be glad if anyone could show a comparison of our positioning under Rafa and Dalglish. I gladly stand corrected











Offline Robbo1980

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,177
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Quote
The best cross seen recently was by fat Charlie against Wolves, and Andy put it away
.

it was but Martin Kellys v Spuds which resulted in a lashed shot over the bar from Caroll was pretty good, hit the cross first time with pace

Offline ScouserAtHeart

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,279
  • Pissing Manc "fans" off since 1999.
Gary effin' Neville. Someone set him on fire and shit in his ashes.

phil_j_420

  • Guest
I think we tend to over pass the ball in the box.  so many times this season, and it happened again during the Spurs game, someone's had the ball in the box with a decent shooting opportunity, and instead of having a go, elected to pass and given the ball straight to a defending player.  I'd like to see more players taking the shot on themselves inside the box.

Offline MassDriver

  • Custom Tit... Shithouse lover... Politically correct and metrosexual cave dweller.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,536
  • Hasta la victoria siempre
Over-pass?  I think it is the other way around to be honest... Too many aimless crosses into the box being our primary mode of attack = Lack of clear goalscoring opportunities..

Too many of our players suddenly develop headless chicken syndrome when they are in a position to play the final ball. Case in point , Jose Enrique.

But then again , I've never been a big fan of 'cross and head' type of football.
You will never walk alone , Shanklyboy. RIP.

I am the Eye in the Sky, looking at you, I can read your mind. I am the maker of rules, dealing with fools, I can cheat you blind. Looking at you, I can read your mind

Offline Chalky Boots

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,156
  • Hates all things Shearer-the dull ***
It's a bit of both really, essentially I feel it comes down to decision making.

When we need to play more direct during a certain phase of play we over pass it and it kills the move....When we need to find that nice little interchange to open things up we decide (particularly when it Carroll or Kuyt leading the point)  to sod it and just loft it up there.

Think it's a bit like Roy Evans Liverpool right now, just not doing the right things when needed to. But I think things will really start forming together this year.
"If you cant play football you shouldnt play for Liverpool"-
Brendan Rodgers, the boss who's boss.

Offline SmithyTheRed

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
I'm not sure if we overpass, but I'd wish we'd shoot alot more.
There have been games when players pass on the responsibility of shooting to someone else far too easily.
Even Stevie doesn't shoot anymore.

I know we're probably top in terms of shots on goal but some games I just wish the player would put his foot through the ball.
Red

Offline kcbworth

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,152
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
I personally think we under pass these days... most frustrating thing this season for me is letting go of the ball for no good reason.

Offline El Denzel Pepito

  • Tight-fisted and unimaginative moany wannabe feedback tourist. More Michael O'Leary than Dermot...but will also give out noshes.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,482
    • Twitter
I don't think the players really know how we should be playing. They haven't got a philosophy in their heads to stick to. Pass and move is the obvious one but I don't think we have a 'style' of play which is a worry.

Offline Carlito Roberto

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,733
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
What really does my head in is Downing carrying the ball down the flank as far forward as possible until somebody comes to him and then passing it back to Enrique, who is stood pretty much where Downing started his run from.

Offline horne

  • y
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,174
  • through a storm
i think we're over crossing....the ball goes way over andy's head most of the time, especially enrique's passes
lol
agree with this...thats the whip it in hard and fast types
BRING FORWARD KEVIN WILLIAMS INQUEST Please sign the petition:
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40925

SIGN THIS ....AND MAKE SURE OTHERS DO TOO

Offline GrkStav

  • Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,019
  • I must have done something right to . . .
Over-pass?  I think it is the other way around to be honest... Too many aimless crosses into the box being our primary mode of attack = Lack of clear goalscoring opportunities..

Too many of our players suddenly develop headless chicken syndrome when they are in a position to play the final ball. Case in point , Jose Enrique.

But then again , I've never been a big fan of 'cross and head' type of football.

Neither have I.

On the other hand, the poster before you does have a point. A shot or two at or near target keeps the defense honest and should improve our chances of getting something out of our more disciplined passing.

Personally, I think we need more 'drilling' and almost 'automatic' plays for the final third, throw-ins, etc. Old-fashioned practice. These players haven't been playing with each other since they were wee lads, in the same academy, with the same style. They're often not 'on the same page' and creativity and improvisation only work when everyone is.
not really...next season he [Lucas Leiva] wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words

Offline love:the:game

  • (Not so) Camera-shy Tart, (Shamelessly) In Love with Himself
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,670
  • If found please return to nearest Blackjack Table
One thing I've repeatedly thought when watching us this season. Not every player in every situation can create something out of nothing, in which case there is nothing wrong with a short, simple pass to see if a team-mate has something better on. But it needs to be played much quicker (almost instantly). No point in staying on the ball, while opposition players switch on and start closing down your options (starting with the simplest), and by the time you pass it to them all they can do is either play it straight back to you (or lose it). And if comes back to you, their players then move on to closing you down, then back it goes to keeper who launches it up and then it's back to trying to win the ball again.

Unless you're gonna play a special pass, play the ball as soon as possible...anyone who's gonna make something would prefer it early, so they can face the opposition goal, get their head up and look at their options.
I think we'd have won the league if we'd sold Keane to Man United.

Offline Immoral King Brian Blessed

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,438
My issue, my obsession, this season is the number of bodies in the box. There are very rarely enough and I get totally focused on it.

Offline Litmanen Legend

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 332
  • I know how to Finnish!
.... and when 13/14yrs had my hair ruffled by keegan while emlyn hughes called me 'big lad' ! .. don't ask

Sorry I know that must have been a lovely moment for you but it just sounds wrong to me..........

Offline Cybertom

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,392
  • Rodgers will lead us back to glory.
I think so, certainly. Many times this season have I seen us pass it around continuously (5 or so passes) on the edge of the box waiting for an opening. Barcelona do this, but they get away with it since they have Messi, Alves, Pedro moving and Xavi/Iniesta making the pass.
Football in England is more direct. We need to get the ball up the pitch with precision and play a fantastic killer ball; whether that be a series of one touch passing, a through ball, a lethal shot or a pin point cross with bodies to stick it in the net.
I think it was Gerrards goal vs Madrid, March 09. Watch that goal for a demonstration of being clinical whilst with the ball.

Offline Cybertom

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,392
  • Rodgers will lead us back to glory.
I think so, certainly. Many times this season have I seen us pass it around continuously (5 or so passes) on the edge of the box waiting for an opening. Barcelona do this, but they get away with it since they have Messi, Alves, Pedro moving and Xavi/Iniesta making the pass.
Football in England is more direct. We need to get the ball up the pitch with precision and play a fantastic killer ball; whether that be a series of one touch passing, a through ball, a lethal shot or a pin point cross with bodies to stick it in the net.
I think it was Gerrards goal vs Madrid, March 09. Watch that goal for a demonstration of being clinical whilst with the ball.

Actually, the goal I was referring to was the goal by Torres against Chelsea at Anfield in the league in the 08/09 season. Watch it, clinical.

Offline hedger

  • ows
  • No new LFC topics
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,911
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
We really lack a modric/mata type player

Offline Nessy76

  • Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,826
    • Yet Another Football Blog
Some interesting thoughts here.

I think most PL defences, especially when they know they are playing us, are very well organised. They know what the obvious ball for us to play is, and they, more often than not, will close that avenue down and restrict us to moving the ball and looking for the next chance. We don't have many players who can dribble past a player, so it is a question of finding the right ball, which will always mean a lot of passing.

We do get the ball in the box pretty often. What I think we don't do so well is get men into the box to take advantage. Part of that is down to Lucas being out, or Gerrard being out earlier in the year.

With Lucas on the pitch, we have a player who can see options, who can win the ball and very quickly generate an attack. Spearing's passing is very good, but I don't see him in the same "Alonso" role of being the man everything moves through. The absence of Lucas means that the likes of Adam, Henderson and Gerrard, players with an instinct to join the attack, will be held back in deeper roles, and not be getting the through balls when the opposition don't expect it as much. They also are less likely to get forwards into the box in support of the striker when we are able to play in crosses.

Someone made the point about floated balls against drilled crosses above, and that's fair enough, but you work with what you've got, and floated balls can easily lead to goals if the attacking team puts enough pressure onto the ball and the defence when it comes in. Again, numbers in the box are a part of this.

One more thing, though.

Many times I've been watching a game, the ball falls to someone in or just outside the box and someone shouts "SHOOT!" even though the ball is at chest height and there's a defender right in front of our man. We want him to shoot, he wants to shoot, but until the ball sits up and there's a space to shoot into there's no point, you're just giving away possession and wasting the opportunity your team has worked its balls off to get you in possession in that part of the field.

So he controls it, and eventually lays it off to someone in a better position.

He's done the right thing, he never had any option, but a lot of people watching the game seem to feel like he's done wrong. I've not played the game at any advanced level, true, but nor have I ever seen anyone kick a ball forwards when it is level with their collarbone or score a goal through the torso of a defender.

Offline mbake

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 103
I think we do over pass on occasion.  I call it the Arsenal Syndrome. As my old coach used to say " you cant score if you dont shoot"
L-I-V   E-R-P  Double O-L
LIVERPOOL FC!!

Offline l12ngo

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 64
I think we do over pass on occasion.  I call it the Arsenal Syndrome. As my old coach used to say " you cant score if you dont shoot"

When Arsenal did it though they could be 4 yards from goal and would go for another pass instead of shooting.

I think a lot of our passing is often wayward/badly paced. At times our passing can be really fluid and we see some of the one touch stuff and that's great. Too often though balls are blasted to each other or are a yard behind and extra touches need to be taken which allows the opposition to set their defence up properly.

Sometimes i think certain players just think at a different speed than others and team mates can be out of synch but you'd hope that would all be ironed out in training. We've proved at times we can do it but it's frustrating when it falls apart. Hopefully a prolonged run with Gerrard, Suarez & Bellamy together will see us pick up a bit. It doesn't help that Lucas is out either.

Offline ReddyMac

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • These eyes seek more glory!!
What really does my head in is Downing carrying the ball down the flank as far forward as possible until somebody comes to him and then passing it back to Enrique, who is stood pretty much where Downing started his run from.

THIS!

Offline Gerrard[LFC]

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
  • We are all part of Liverpool-FC
I think we do, mostly because some players dont want to take the risk of losing possession and/or the blame and some are lacking in the ability to take the man on or cross or pass efficiently.
Other times there is no one to pass it too, only Suarez will take the man on if there isnt a pass on.
It is mostly down to technical ability and belief in oneself.
Because we have lack of those we tend to pass back and become predictable and overpass most of the time.
The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
Michelangelo

Offline Bob Loblaw

  • Could be John Giles, or his agent.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,423
Not really imo. We tend to run out of ideas rather than pass it too much. I just think the cohesion and understanding isn't quite there yet.

Offline kred

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
More passes or less passes, what matters is the right pass.  A split second and the opportunity is lost.  Not running for the right space reduces the option for the passer.  To pass well in the final 3rd, where space & time are really tight, you need intelligent players to link up.  Maybe the team doesn't gell yet, but smart players don't take that long.  Downing may be a pure winger, but he doesn't create threats like Maxi.  Charlie may have range, but he takes too long compared to Meireles. 

Offline JohnBarnesBigToe

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,549
  • Half Iago, half Fu Manchu, all bastard
No we don’t. We just recycle the ball badly on the flanks before either loosing it (kuyt), knocking a ball into the box aimlessly (Downing/Enrique), take a wild shot at goal (Downing, Enrique, Adam) or try and beat 6 men at once (Luis)
"At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques". Bill Shankly

Offline nittinivala

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 248
Our overall play is too predictable.And our crosses are very poor.

Offline kasperoff

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,157
  • JFT 96
Player movement in the final 3rd is the problem. Thats the reason why it looks like we're keeping the ball too long or going backwards. If the pass was on then the player would be found. As it is, we're keeping the ball moving endlessly waiting for someone to make a dart.

I have to say though, I think that will come. Our overall play and ball retention is very good. We just need to be a bit more savvy off the ball near the box.
I think the same, can't stand him, but if you could have a £1million pound cheque or steve bruces head hollowed out and filled with pound coins which would you have?

Offline Ada069

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • RAWK's Village Idiot
I think we are playing too slow of a tempo when we should be more quick and playing to quick when we are slow.

Noone moves about and noone makes runs to get behind the defense.
Many dreams come true, some have silver linings, I live for my dreams and a pocketful of gold.

Offline wheresnemeth

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Over-pass?  I think it is the other way around to be honest... Too many aimless crosses into the box being our primary mode of attack = Lack of clear goalscoring opportunities..

Too many of our players suddenly develop headless chicken syndrome when they are in a position to play the final ball. Case in point , Jose Enrique.

But then again , I've never been a big fan of 'cross and head' type of football.

This and we also lack a creative midfielder at the moment.
how do i put you on ignore mode ?
Profile > Modify profile > Buddies/Ignore list.

You will regret this decision, my friend.