Topic: Liverpool 1-1 Man United - FAC R4: Half time.....

[ArcticRed]

Let me start by saying that I think Suarez being found guilty of such a serious offence on the balance of probability was very harsh and that I can't honestly say I believe either player's account to definitely be the correct one. Only the two of them know what happened and I can utterly believe that either one of them would lie. They've both shown themselves to be absolute WUMs in the past.
However, your point about Ferguson needing to make sure the allegation was true is completely incorrect. The rules state a complaint of this type should be made immediately to the referee, never mind after the game. It's not Ferguson's, Dalglish's, Evra's or Suarez' duty to prove the allegation one way or another, that's for the panel to decide. I think Evra was wrong to immediately say what he said to Canal+, but Ferguson has a responsibility to make sure he takes seriously an allegation like this by one of his players. If it ever happens again I would expect him or any other manager to react in the same way and report it.

Think I heard somewhere there's a 30 minute "grace period" after final whistle before the teams get to talk to the ref. If so, that's 30 mins in which facts could've been established, from both teams, with or without any clarifying input from the native spanish speakers in both teams.
I'll assume the Adeyemi incident was also reported to the ref at the first possible opportunity. Amazing how both clubs have managed to keep that thing low key. Even the offended party in that case. Boggles the mind, it does.

[Johnnowhite]

Red-Mark 1980 posted :- Lets be honest here. If this incident had happened at another time its very likely Suarez would have got a smaller ban with some more games suspended if any at all.

The verdict and length of the ban as anyone who's read the report will not be replicated should other cases arise.

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Eh? Have you got something adrift here somewhere as it doesn't make sense as it stands?

[Livid]

Think I heard somewhere there's a 30 minute "grace period" after final whistle before the teams get to talk to the ref. If so, that's 30 mins in which facts could've been established, from both teams, with or without any clarifying input from the native spanish speakers in both teams.
I'll assume the Adeyemi incident was also reported to the ref at the first possible opportunity. Amazing how both clubs have managed to keep that thing low key. Even the offended party in that case. Boggles the mind, it does.

You think so? We've had a drawn out inquiry and a 100+ page report yet very few actual facts have been established I think you'll agree. What do you do? Go ask Suarez if he did it? Ask Evra if he's really, really sure he was racially abused? It'd be like a primary school fight.

[The Grinch]

Let me start by saying that I think Suarez being found guilty of such a serious offence on the balance of probability was very harsh and that I can't honestly say I believe either player's account to definitely be the correct one. Only the two of them know what happened and I can utterly believe that either one of them would lie. They've both shown themselves to be absolute WUMs in the past.
However, your point about Ferguson needing to make sure the allegation was true is completely incorrect. The rules state a complaint of this type should be made immediately to the referee, never mind after the game. It's not Ferguson's, Dalglish's, Evra's or Suarez' duty to prove the allegation one way or another, that's for the panel to decide. I think Evra was wrong to immediately say what he said to Canal+, but Ferguson has a responsibility to make sure he takes seriously an allegation like this by one of his players. If it ever happens again I would expect him or any other manager to react in the same way and report it.

Exactly Evra should of made the allegation at the time and when he didn't Ferguson should of asked him why.

[Jonny-LFC]

Taken this from YNWA Forum - I don't know the person in question or the poster. Very interesting post, no matter how true it is/isn't.


"I have been just been told by someone who i trust implicitily as telling the truth, and he's in a position to know this.

It has been proposed to the FA, by whom or from where he does not know, that the game be played behind closed doors. The FA are cacking themselves about how this one is going to pan out. He doesnt know whether it will be considered seriously or not at this stage but he does know that privately they consider this draw their worst nightmare and the proposal has been made.

Any more I get I'll let you know"

[The Jackal]

Taken this from YNWA Forum - I don't know the person in question or the poster. Very interesting post, no matter how true it is/isn't.


"I have been just been told by someone who i trust implicitily as telling the truth, and he's in a position to know this.

It has been proposed to the FA, by whom or from where he does not know, that the game be played behind closed doors. The FA are cacking themselves about how this one is going to pan out. He doesnt know whether it will be considered seriously or not at this stage but he does know that privately they consider this draw their worst nightmare and the proposal has been made.

Any more I get I'll let you know"

seriously doubt that is going to happen.

[red_mark1980]

Red-Mark 1980 posted :- Lets be honest here. If this incident had happened at another time its very likely Suarez would have got a smaller ban with some more games suspended if any at all.

The verdict and length of the ban as anyone who's read the report will not be replicated should other cases arise.

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Eh? Have you got something adrift here somewhere as it doesn't make sense as it stands?

Purdy was talking about violent conduct charges only getting 3 mathces and Suarez gets 8 for alleged abuse that referenced the colour.

I was making the point that the F.A. set out to make an example of this particular case. As they are really against racism.. honestly they are.

[Livid]

Exactly Evra should of made the allegation at the time and when he didn't Ferguson should of asked him why.

I thought he did try and tell the referee during the game. Regardless, Ferguson could have asked him why but he'd still be duty bound to make sure it was subsequently reported. You have to report allegations like this if the player is adamant he has been racially abused, there is no way you can't.

[Jonny-LFC]

seriously doubt that is going to happen.

My thoughts exactly, but imagine if Mancs have even asked the FA about it. I wonder if they'd also want the OT league game behind closed doors when Suarez is actually back. Surely won't be true.

[red_mark1980]

Taken this from YNWA Forum - I don't know the person in question or the poster. Very interesting post, no matter how true it is/isn't.


"I have been just been told by someone who i trust implicitily as telling the truth, and he's in a position to know this.

It has been proposed to the FA, by whom or from where he does not know, that the game be played behind closed doors. The FA are cacking themselves about how this one is going to pan out. He doesnt know whether it will be considered seriously or not at this stage but he does know that privately they consider this draw their worst nightmare and the proposal has been made.

Any more I get I'll let you know"

There is no base for this whatsover.  None. The clubs fans have a nigh on impeccable record of behaviour. To do this would only fuel the "The F.A. are against us" rubbish.

Will not happen in a million years

[rhubarbos]

Lets be honest here. If this incident had happened at another time its very likely Suarez would have got a smaller ban with some more games suspended if any at all.

The verdict and length of the ban as anyone who's read the report will not be replicated should other cases arise.

Look how much coverage Titus Bramble's case has got as well -  and that is indefinitely worse

[red_mark1980]

My thoughts exactly, but imagine if Mancs have even asked the FA about it. I wonder if they'd also want the OT league game behind closed doors when Suarez is actually back. Surely won't be true.

If they have, the F.A. should and will tell them to shut up.

[red_mark1980]

Look how much coverage Titus Bramble's case has got as well -  and that is indefinitely worse

Emre and Everton.... when it was thrown out because the two witness statements differed on which 'N' word was used in English.

Not the number of times, but which one. Emre was cleared

[montysmum]

I understand where you're coming from, and I sure as hell agree with the sentiment. But one of you coming on to a Liverpool forum isn't gonna do diddley... not by itself, and definitely not if the other side isn't even listening to its own "peacebrokers". What good will it do if the whole of RAWK agrees with you, and every matchgoer on here attends the game in the spirit of Ghandi himself, only to be set on by a set of supporters who are seemingly bad enough to have been given up by their own

Given that one of the most popular threads on redcafe is one about RAWK, maybe one or two will get the idea and run with it? 

[Johnnowhite]

Don't hold yer breath love eh ??!!

[eirwen]

Let me just put it this way, if it turns out the Oldman player misheard and there wasn't racist abuse, do you blame him for talking to the ref and police in the first place? No. If Evra genuinely thought Suarez called him a n****r or similar words, I don't blame him for making a complaint either. I blame him for running out to the media about it and making up stories during the investigation. But I don't blame Ferguson or man utd making the report itself. It is not the job of managers to question their own players' integrity. It is the job for the FA to conduct a proper investigation and find out the truth.

I hate Ferguson for his smear campaign on Suarez, but it was his duty to report such a case when his player made an accusation. If one of our players said he was racially abused, I'd expect Kenny to do the same thing.

[redprodigal]

Redprodigal posted :- Almost certainly been asked before mate, but why don't you quote people using the normal method?

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Working abroad and the client site server blocks usage of quotes.

It's a real pain in the arse but has to be done otherwise my replies are a lot of bollux.

AWRIGHT awright .......no need to say it.......  

Ah, I see.

[The Jackal]

Let me just put it this way, if it turns out the Oldman player misheard and there wasn't racist abuse, do you blame him for talking to the ref and police in the first place? No. If Evra genuinely thought Suarez called him a n****r or similar words, I don't blame him for making a complaint either. I blame him for running out to the media about it and making up stories during the investigation. But I don't blame Ferguson or man utd making the report itself. It is not the job of managers to question their own players' integrity. It is the job for the FA to conduct a proper investigation and find out the truth.

I hate Ferguson for his smear campaign on Suarez, but it was his duty to report such a case when his player made an accusation. If one of our players said he was racially abused, I'd expect Kenny to do the same thing.

Exactly this. This whole situation was caused by the fact that Evra went to the media - once it was 'out in the open' the FA felt compelled to act despite the overwhelming lack of any evidence. Suarez' fate was sealed from that point. If the complaint had been handled internally with nothing in the media then it's possible a charge would not even have been brought.

[Kidspen]

I'm sure it may have been commented on already but there are so many threads either moved or locked that I'm not sure where to look.
The incident leading to the confrontation, the foul by Suarez on Evra has been shown on various videos.
Compare the two shown below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LH50lwwBRms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m3TCXA8rFdo
On one Suarez's feet barely leave the ground but on the other he makes some contact with Evra's knee. The two don't seem to tally even though I know that the camera angle is important but surely the feet should be the same height from the ground.
Does anybody know whether these videas were used by the FA?
Is it fairly easy to doctor videos?
Just bacause you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

[Redrider]

Get a grip you total muppet!

When your argument fails - resort to insults! Always a good ploy!

[montysmum]

There's no point going over all this for ever is there?  The hearing has gone and flawed as iot was the club have decided not to appeal.  All the discussion in the world about what was/should have been said, what videos were used isn't going to change a damn thing.

On a lighter note, in the Banners thread HH suggested making the focus of this game Kenny Dalglish as a show of support and because he has been under so much pressure.  Maybe instead of focussing on what is past and cant be changed we can focus on the forthcoming game and giving support for our Manager more than ever?

[redk84]

jesus 44 pages and we have a couple of matches before this!

imagine if there was an international break seperating it from us

[markymark]

I'm sure it may have been commented on already but there are so many threads either moved or locked that I'm not sure where to look.
The incident leading to the confrontation, the foul by Suarez on Evra has been shown on various videos.
Compare the two shown below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LH50lwwBRms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m3TCXA8rFdo
On one Suarez's feet barely leave the ground but on the other he makes some contact with Evra's knee. The two don't seem to tally even though I know that the camera angle is important but surely the feet should be the same height from the ground.
Does anybody know whether these videas were used by the FA?
Is it fairly easy to doctor videos?
Just bacause you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

They are at different speeds though, the one in normal time happens to quick to see it properly.

[RobbieRedman]

imagine if there was an international break seperating it from us

Uruguay v France friendly?

[mybacklight]

Well said montysmum. We should stop with this now and just carry on the focus on something positive like the dalglish day! Fantastic!

[Stussy]

Jooneyisdagod posted :-  "In no way am I condoning violence and I desperately hope it doesn't happen but I sure as fuck wish and actually I know that Anfield will be an absolute cauldron on the day."

______________________________________________________________________________________

I know that mate - I know that. I also know that there'll be thousands going to the game who may NOT share your/my/our hopes on the day - and they're the fuckers that worry me.

I would want Anfield no other way for an FA Cup clash between our two great clubs - and let's get that said here. We ARE great clubs with a long and proud tradition which ARE the envy of the rest in truth. But with these smouldering undertones, I really do fear the football will be secondary on the day

Johnno you know you are universally respected here and for a Man Utd fan that is an amazing feat!

I think you're right in general - the whole situation needs defusing.

The whole affair has been dealt with very badly by all parties - LFC have made mistakes, and I think the FA made mistakes too.

As much as I think it needs to be taken down a notch, the atmosphere between our clubs has well and truly degenerated to Celtic - Rangers levels of unmitigated hatred and it makes it even more squalid that the whole issue of racism has become entangled into it.

I really don't see what steps can be taken to take it down a notch.

Even if Reds resolved not to target their anger on Evra, you'd have 6000 Salfordians screaming the worst things about Suarez to get a rise and response.

This game is going to get very ugly. Don't take this defensively. But I do think that there is a contingent in your support that wants to escalate things, and that is the problem - even if Dalglish gave a speech like Mahatma Gandhi, and Evra and Suarez shook hands, and everyone asked for calm, there would still be elements that will ignore it and that can spark something volatile.

[Grobbelrevell]

jesus 44 pages and we have a couple of matches before this!

Or rather:

Jesus 44 pages and yet a thread with significantly more importance is stuck on 12.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=282084.0

[BMW]

They are at different speeds though, the one in normal time happens to quick to see it properly.

This.... the best I can make out is this;

[Stussy]

And those elements are not only inside the supporter base - I think there are parties outside who are, or could stoke things up.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Uruguay v France friendly?

The Uruguay captain has already said in an interview that Evra knew what he was doing and it was all to stop an opponents player from playing.

His quote was "If Evra plays that game, then he will need to be wearing armour"

[drpepe]

Let me start by saying that I think Suarez being found guilty of such a serious offence on the balance of probability was very harsh and that I can't honestly say I believe either player's account to definitely be the correct one. Only the two of them know what happened and I can utterly believe that either one of them would lie. They've both shown themselves to be absolute WUMs in the past.
However, your point about Ferguson needing to make sure the allegation was true is completely incorrect. The rules state a complaint of this type should be made immediately to the referee, never mind after the game. It's not Ferguson's, Dalglish's, Evra's or Suarez' duty to prove the allegation one way or another, that's for the panel to decide. I think Evra was wrong to immediately say what he said to Canal+, but Ferguson has a responsibility to make sure he takes seriously an allegation like this by one of his players. If it ever happens again I would expect him or any other manager to react in the same way and report it.

some good posts from Livid and others.

Clearly this whole incident was inflamed by Evra speaking to the french? tv after the game. His is the main 'fault' in this. I'm (not really) surprised that aside from the abuse that Evra aimed at suarez on the pitch, that the fa doesn';t have grounds to hold evra to account for distorting the whole incident by (inaccurately and flagrantly publicising it).

If only that hadn't happened there wouldn't have been claims/counterclaims made via the press - of course

[shook]

The Uruguay captain has already said in an interview that Evra knew what he was doing and it was all to stop an opponents player from playing.

His quote was "If Evra plays that game, then he will need to be wearing armour"

wow, strong stuff from Pereira

FC Porto’s Pereira said: “Evra is going to have to wear body armour. If I ’m
called negro, I laugh. But now it’s a crime to say something on the pitch.

“If this happened in South America, they’d have to suspend everyone. I think
Man United tried to take advantage of this situation and prevent one of Liverpool’s best players from playing. That’s sad.”

[Johnnowhite]

SirAlex@TheFA.com posted :-

The Uruguay captain has already said in an interview that Evra knew what he was doing and it was all to stop an opponents player from playing.
His quote was "If Evra plays that game, then he will need to be wearing armour"


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Well I suppose it does qualify as AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT of sorts but bleedin' hell - the Uruguayan captain sticking his two pennorth in, does that really move us on any?

[greenone]

Look how much coverage Titus Bramble's case has got as well -  and that is indefinitely worse

There will be a gagging order on it until after the court case.

[geoffstrong]

Simply put its the fact that the captain of Uraguay is incensed by Evra's actions and his wish to harm a fellow Uraguayan team mate by harming his reputation in world football. Cannot see anything wrong in his response i imagine the body armour was tongue in cheek (hope not!) but i would want my national captain to support me if in Luis's situation.

Maybe France may think about not selecting Evra for this game?

[Roy of the rovers]

Red-Mark 1980 posted :- Lets be honest here. If this incident had happened at another time its very likely Suarez would have got a smaller ban with some more games suspended if any at all.

The verdict and length of the ban as anyone who's read the report will not be replicated should other cases arise.

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Eh? Have you got something adrift here somewhere as it doesn't make sense as it stands?

Assume that this is in reference to the Blatter angle...

[jaffod]

Pathetic

His comments about him being a diver are totally irrelevant to Evra's claims about racism. Loads of foreign players have been accused of diving, as has Gerrard. Nothing to do with it.

Get a grip

Erm, show me where I said otherwise. I merely made the point that it was Ferguson who initially instigated the whole Suarez witch hunt with his accusation that he was a diver and I stand by that claim.
 I also agree that if Slurguson genuinely believed Evra had been racially abused by Suarez then he would have been right to report the incident. The fact it was akin to a big pot of gold landing right at his feet is irrelevant too I know.
 Wind your neck in Darren Roy.

[jaffod]

SirAlex@TheFA.com posted :-

The Uruguay captain has already said in an interview that Evra knew what he was doing and it was all to stop an opponents player from playing.
His quote was "If Evra plays that game, then he will need to be wearing armour"


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Well I suppose it does qualify as AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT of sorts but bleedin' hell - the Uruguayan captain sticking his two pennorth in, does that really move us on any?

No it doesn't Johnno, I'm just glad the media haven't been seeking the opinion of every Tom, Dick & Harry in an effort to villify Suarez.
 Oh, hang on a minute....

[ArcticRed]

Assume that this is in reference to the Blatter angle...

Blatter... Ouseley... the 99,6% success rate... media frenzy... so many possibilities... or one game for each cause, perhaps? at least...
politics

[The Grinch]

I thought he did try and tell the referee during the game. Regardless, Ferguson could have asked him why but he'd still be duty bound to make sure it was subsequently reported. You have to report allegations like this if the player is adamant he has been racially abused, there is no way you can't.

That's the big problem with Evra evidence he didn't bring it up at the time. He was United Captain and had every right to bring it to the Ref's attention. According to Evra he had already been abused several times by Suarez but didn't bring it to the ref's attention even though he was standing yards away from him.

It was only after the assistant Ref brought the Ref's attention to the fact that Evra and Suarez were having a spat that the Ref spoke to him. He had the opportunity to tell the referee but didn't, then after Suarez had patted his head he had another opportunity to bring it to the Ref's attention he chose not to. He then alleges he did tell the Ref but the Ref didn't hear him.

The only occasions that anyone on the pitch can recall Evra mentioning the word Black was when Kuyt in his evidence said that Evra said to the assistant Ref that Evra said he had only been booked because he was black and when he spoke to Giggs and Giggs told him to calm down and not get sent off.

So the only times Evra mentioned the allegation on the pitch that anyone can corroborate was after he had done something wrong been booked for it and used it to justify his actions.