Author Topic: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein  (Read 12209 times)

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2012, 05:05:09 PM »


You can practically overlay a graph that plots global population, at least to the first half of the above graph. Times are going to get tough (and by tough, I mean the planet is going to shed billions of people, unless we address the coming energy shortfall. The timescale being: During the next couple of hundred years, possibly sooner)

This guys blog is a goldmine of relevant and stark information regarding our energy future. As a UCSD Physics Professor, his math is pretty sharp, as is his analysis of sustainable energy living and energy generation are the best I have seen (at least, in a concise and user friendly, accessible format).

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/10/the-energy-trap/

(edited for brevity - see the full post at link)

The Energy Trap


Many Do the Math posts have touched on the inevitable cessation of growth and on the challenge we will face in developing a replacement energy infrastructure once our fossil fuel inheritance is spent. The focus has been on long-term physical constraints, and not on the messy details of our response in the short-term. But our reaction to a diminishing flow of fossil fuel energy in the short-term will determine whether we transition to a sustainable but technological existence or allow ourselves to collapse. One stumbling block in particular has me worried. I call it The Energy Trap.

In brief, the idea is that once we enter a decline phase in fossil fuel availability—first in petroleum—our growth-based economic system will struggle to cope with a contraction of its very lifeblood. Fuel prices will skyrocket, some individuals and exporting nations will react by hoarding, and energy scarcity will quickly become the new norm. The invisible hand of the market will slap us silly demanding a new energy infrastructure based on non-fossil solutions. But here’s the rub. The construction of that shiny new infrastructure requires not just money, but…energy. And that’s the very commodity in short supply. Will we really be willing to sacrifice additional energy in the short term—effectively steepening the decline—for a long-term energy plan? It’s a trap!

When I first encountered the concept of peak oil, I was most distressed about the economic implications. In part, this was prompted by David Goodstein’s book Out of Gas, which highlighted the potential for global panic in reaction to peak oil—making the gas lines associated with the temporary oil shocks of 1973 and 1979 look like warm-up acts. Because I knew Professor Goodstein personally, and held him in high regard as a solid physicist, I took his message seriously. Extrapolating his vision of a global reaction to peak oil, I imagined that the prospect of a decades-long decline in available energy—while we strained to institute a replacement infrastructure—would destroy confidence in short-term economic growth, thus destroying investment and crashing markets. The market relies on investor confidence—which, in some sense, makes it a con job, since “con” is short for confidence. If that confidence is shattered on a global scale, what happens next?

I still consider economic panic to be a distinctly possible eventuality, but psychology can be hard to predict. Market optimists would see the tremendous investment potential of a new energy infrastructure as an antidote against such an outbreak. Given this uncertainty, let’s shy away from economic prognostication and look at a purely physical dimension to the problem—namely, the Energy Trap.
Energy Return on Energy Invested

Our goal will be to quantitatively assess the Energy Trap, and see if there is any substance to the idea. We will rely on a concept that has acquired a central role in evaluating our energy future. This is energy return on energy invested, or EROEI.

In order to utilize energy, we must exert some energy to secure the source and prepare it for use. In order to burn wood in our fireplace, we (or someone) must chop down a tree, cut it into logs, and split the large logs. To drive our gasoline-powered car, we must expend energy finding the oil, drilling and possibly pumping the oil, then refining and distributing the gasoline. To collect solar energy, we must invest energy to fabricate the solar panels and associated electronics. The result is expressed as a ratio of energy-out:energy-in. Anything less than the break-even ratio of 1:1 means that the source provides no net energy (a drain, in fact), and is not worth pursuing for energy purposes—unless the form/convenience of that specific energy is otherwise unavailable.

In its early days, oil frequently yielded an EROEI in excess of 100:1, meaning that 1% or less of the energy contained in a barrel of oil had to be expended to deliver that barrel of oil. Not a bad bargain. Oil production today more typically has an EROEI around 20:1, while tar sands and oil shale tend to be about 5:1 and 3:1, respectively. By contrast, it is debatable whether corn ethanol exceeds break-even: it may optimistically be as high as 1.4:1. Switching from conventional oil to corn ethanol would be like switching from a diet of bacon, eggs, and butter to a desperate survival diet of shoe leather and tree bark. Other approaches to biofuels, like sugar cane ethanol, can have EROEI as high as 8:1.

To round out the introduction, coal typically has an EROEI around 50–85:1, and natural gas tends to come in around 20–40:1, though falling below the lower end of this range as the easy fields are depleted. Meanwhile, solar photovoltaics are estimated to require 3–4 years’ worth of energy output to fabricate, including the frames and associated electronics systems. Assuming a 30–40 year lifetime, this translates into an EROEI around 10:1. Wind is estimated to have EROEI around 20:1, and new nuclear installations are expected to come in at approximately 15:1. These are all positive net-energy approaches, which is the good news.
The Inevitable Fossil Fuel Decline

Let’s explore what happens as we try to compensate for an energy decline with an alternative resource having modest EROEI. On the upslope of our fossil fuel bonanza, we saw a characteristic annual growth rate of around 3% per year. The asymmetric Seneca Effect notwithstanding, a logistic evolution of the resource would result in a symmetric rate of contraction on the downslope: 3% per year. I borrow a graphic from the post on the meaning of “sustainable” to illustrate the rationale for expecting an era of decline for a one-time finite resource.

On the long view, the fossil fuel age is a blip, with a down side mirroring the (more fun) up side.

We could use any number for the decline rate in our analysis, but I’ll actually soften the effect to a 2% annual decline to illustrate that we run into problems even at a modest rate of decline. By itself, a 2% decline year after year—while sounding mild—would send our growth-based economy into a tailspin. As detailed in a previous post, across-the-board efficiency improvements cannot tread water against a rate as high as 2% per year. As we’ll see next, the Energy Trap just makes things worse.
Arresting the Decline: Take 1

Let’s say that our nation (or world) uses 100 units of fossil fuel energy one year, and expects to get only 98 units the following year. We need to come up with 2 units of replacement energy within a year’s time to fill the gap. If, for example, the replacement:

    has an EROEI of 10:1;
    requires most of the energy investment up front (solar panel or wind turbine manufacture, nuclear plant construction, etc.);
    and will last 40 years,

then we need an up-front energy investment amounting to 4 year’s worth of the new source’s output energy. Since we require an output of 2 units of energy to fill the gap, we will need 8 units of energy to bring the resource into use.

Of the 100 units of total energy resource in place in year one, only 92 are available for use—looking suddenly like an 8% decline. If we sit on our hands and do not launch a replacement infrastructure, we would have 98 units available for use next year. It’s still a decline, but a 2% decline is more palatable than an effective 8% decline. Since each subsequent year expects a similar fossil fuel decline, the game repeats. Where is the incentive to launch a new infrastructure? This is why I call it a trap. We need to exacerbate the sacrifice for a prolonged period in order to come out on top in the end.

The figure above shows what this looks like graphically, given a linear fossil fuel decline of 2 units per year. The deployment steps up immediately to plug the gap by providing an additional 2 units of replacement each year, at an annual cost of 8 units. While the combination of fossil fuels and replacement resource always adds to 100 units in this scheme, the ongoing up-front cost of new infrastructure produces a constant drain on the system. In terms of accumulated energy lost, it takes 7 years before the energy sacrifice associated with replacement starts to be less than that of just following the fossil fuel slide with no attempt at replacement. This timescale is beyond the typical horizon of elected politicians.

Another aspect of the trap is that we cannot build our way out of the problem. If we tried to outsmart the trap by building an 8-unit replacement in year one, it would require 32 units to produce and only dig a deeper hole. The essential point is that up-front infrastructure energy costs mean that one step forward results in four steps back, given EROEI around 10:1 and up-front investment for a 40 year lifetime. Nature does not provide an energy financing scheme. You can’t build a windmill on promised energy.

We can mess with the numbers to get different results. If only half the total energy invested is up-front, and the rest is distributed across the life of the resource (mining and enriching uranium, for instance), then we take a 4% hit instead of 8%. Likewise, a 40-year windmill at 20:1 EROEI and full up-front investment will require 2 years of its 2-unit gap-filling contribution to install, amounting to an energy cost of 4 units and therefore a 4% hit. It’s still bigger than the do-nothing 2%, which, remember, is already a source of pain.  Anyone want to double the pain? Anyone? Elect me, and that’s what we’ll do. Any takers? No? Wimps.

As mentioned before, the Energy Trap is a generic consequence of modest-EROEI sources requiring substantial up-front investment in energy. We would need the EROEI to be equal to the resource lifetime in order to have a null effect during the decline years, or better than this to ease the pain or allow growth. For a 40 year lifetime (e.g., power plant, solar panels, wind turbines), this means we would need 40:1 EROEI or better to avoid the trap. Our alternatives simply don’t measure up. Curses!

For resources that do not require substantial up-front cost in the form of infrastructure, the trap does not apply. Fossil fuels tend to be of this sort. The energy required to deliver a barrel of oil or a ton of coal tends to be specific to the delivered unit, and is not dominated by up-front cost. It is similar for tar sands, which requires substantial energy to heat and process the sludge. Even at 5:1 EROEI, filling a 2-unit gap can be achieved by producing 2.5 units of output while losing 0.5 units to investment. Thus it is possible to maintain a steady energy supply. The fact that fossil fuels don’t trap us encourages us to stick with them. But being a finite resource, their attractiveness is the sound of the Siren, luring us to stay on the sinking ship. Or did the Sirens lure sailors from ships?  Either way, fossil fuels are already compatible with our transportation fleet, strengthening the death-grip.

Conversely, solar photovoltaics, solar thermal, wind, and nuclear, are all ways to make electricity, but these do not help us very much as a direct replacement of the first-to-fail fossil fuel: oil. This is a very serious point. As Bob Hirsch pointed out in the 2005 report commissioned by the Department of Energy, we face a liquid fuels problem in peak oil. As such, not one of the five immediately actionable crash-program mitigation strategies outlined in the report represented a departure from finite fossil fuels. The grip is tight, indeed.

We must therefore compound the Energy Trap problem if we want to replace oil with any of the renewable sources listed above, because we need to add the energy investment associated with manufacturing a new fleet of electric vehicles of one form or another (plug-in hybrid qualifies). This can’t happen overnight, and will result in a prolonged transportation energy shortfall even greater in magnitude than depicted above.
Do We Have What it Takes?

Many of us have great hopes for our energy future that involve a transition to a gleaming renewable energy infrastructure, but we need to realize that we face a serious bottleneck in its implementation. The up-front energy investment in renewable energy infrastructures has not been visible as a hurdle thus far, as we have had surplus energy to invest (and smartly, at that; if only we had started in earnest earlier!). Against a backdrop of energy decline—which I feel will be the only motivator strong enough to make us serious about a replacement path—we may find ourselves paralyzed by the Trap.

In the parallel world of economics, an energy decline likely spells deep recession. The substantial financial investment needed to carry out an energy replacement crash program will be hard to scrape together in tough times, especially given that we are unlikely to converge on the “right” solution into which we sink our bucks.

Politically, the Energy Trap is a killer. In my lifetime, I have not witnessed in our political system the adult behavior that would be needed to buckle down for a long-term goal involving short-term sacrifice.  Or at least any brief bouts of such maturity have not been politically rewarded.  I’m not blaming the politicians. We all scream for ice cream. Politicians simply cater to our demands. We tend to vote for the candidate who promises a bigger, better tomorrow—even if such a path is untenable.

The only way out of the political trap is for a substantial fraction of our population to understand the dimensions of the problem: to understand that we’ve been spoiled by the surplus energy available through fossil fuels, and that we will have to make decade-level sacrifices to put ourselves on a new track. The only way to accomplish this is through sober education, which is what Do the Math is all about. It’s a trap! Spread the word!
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2012, 09:29:27 PM »
Just spotted this thread and have had a quick skim through.

Some of this is borderline insanity.

We're not going to be below the predicted threshold. On current course, we're likely to be 20% over it within 10 years and hit the point of 'bugger we've screwed the planet up' in 5 years. In 20 years, we'll be looking at sea levels rising by between 3 and 7 feet and which will continue to rise by 6 to 12 inches every year afterwards, temperatures 12 degrees C warmer over a lot of the Northern Hemisphere etc etc. Only takes 1000 years to get things back to where we are after that though, so there's still hope if we can manage without around half of all the species currently living. Denial seems a very comforting stance in comparison to what the climate scientists are saying.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/09/fossil-fuel-infrastructure-climate-change?cat=environment&type=articlewww.

Sea level rise of 3-7 feet in 20 years? What are you on?

Sea level has been rising at a fairly steady rate of 3mm per year for several thousand years. Its continuing to rise at (slightly less recently) 3mm per year. In 88 Hansen predicted a 15 feet rise by 2010. It's gone up by 3 inches.

Temperature to go up by 12 degrees C?

The planet likes to run at three quite steady temp. Most of the time - 70% or so over the last 600M years - at about 8-9 deg C above the current interglacial level of 15 deg C. The bulk of the remainder is full glacial - about 7 deg C below current values. The hot periods had CO2 levels which were 15-20 times the 400 ppm of the 21st century.

What sort of LSD induced nightmare leads you to get 12 deg C rise from?
Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2012, 11:24:54 PM »
Actual scientists are predicting that we will see global temperature rises, by the end of this century. They have measured the rate of increase of carbon in the atmosphere as being in direct proportion to our global CO2 emissions.

Since 1950, CO2 concentrations have risen by about 40%. 'Actual scientists' at the IPCC predicted a 1.5deg C rise. It's risen by about 0.5 deg C.

Their models are wrong! They have a built in positive 'feed back' of 3-3.5. How much were their predicts out by?

Yep, by a factor of 3.

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Actual science is stating that this will increase the acidity of and warm the oceans (killing Phytoplankton - the key part of our planets CO2-O2 conversion interface) while we are deforesting south america to make pasture lands for fucking burgers to be, so we get fat as the planet asphixiates.

What you mean to say, I'm sure, is that the oceans will become slightly less alkaline. Like they did when CO2 was at 8000 parts per million - it's at 400 ppm now and will likely not rise above 800 ppm even by the end of the century at which point scarcity will cause a natural and economic move to other sources of energy.


Quote

Actual scientists have observed that this is directly as a result of man-made CO2 (and other gas) pollution.


No. 'Actual scientists' - i.e. Physicists say that a doubling of CO2 will lead to a temp rise of about 1 deg C. The rest of the bollocks comes from an imagined positive feed-back of 300%-350%.

Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2012, 12:10:13 AM »
Just spotted this thread and have had a quick skim through.

Some of this is borderline insanity.

Sea level rise of 3-7 feet in 20 years? What are you on?

Sea level has been rising at a fairly steady rate of 3mm per year for several thousand years. Its continuing to rise at (slightly less recently) 3mm per year. In 88 Hansen predicted a 15 feet rise by 2010. It's gone up by 3 inches.

Temperature to go up by 12 degrees C?

The planet likes to run at three quite steady temp. Most of the time - 70% or so over the last 600M years - at about 8-9 deg C above the current interglacial level of 15 deg C. The bulk of the remainder is full glacial - about 7 deg C below current values. The hot periods had CO2 levels which were 15-20 times the 400 ppm of the 21st century.

What sort of LSD induced nightmare leads you to get 12 deg C rise from?

I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing against. That you don't agree with the prognosis is fine - we all do that from time to time. I'm sure Zeb can speak up for himself, but he is taking his position from the guardian article, which itself links to the scientific journals that published the findings. Rather than imply that he is in the throws of some kind of hallucination, why not take the basis of his statements to task.

I agree with your hypothesis that the planet normally functions at steady temps - though to be fair, our fossil fuel driven, upward explosion in both energy generated and atmospheric carbon, cannot be described as normal. In terms of population alone, we have gone from approx 1 billion people world wide in the late 1700's to 7 billion in around 300 years (with 5.5 billion of them coming during the last 150 years - coal and oil fed boom).

It is clear that there is a big anthropological effect on the planet: massive species wide kill off of numerous varieties of flora and fauna. Many abundant mineral and animal resources are being driven to the brink of extinction still (despite of our awareness of the issues). Like it our lump it, this fossil fuel driven population boom is having an effect on the planet. Even if you completely discount 'global warming'/'climate change', we are effecting slash and burn economics: We are harvesting animal, plant and mineral resources at rates beyond their capacity to regenerate.

The wars of the 20th century were the costliest and bloodiest in humanities known history: 150mil plus. Scary, right? It didn't make a dent in our species growth: 3-4billion people arrived on the planet post WWII alone. Pollution is (naturally) a function of population. The more people, the more pollution.

Just as an aside: When you were young, did your folks buy new outfits all the time? Did they eat meat with every single meal? Buy new electronics as the new model was released, household appliances or other consumables every couple of years? (I know mine didn't and I am 30 years younger than you). Where does all this shit go? The household rubbish, trash, plastic/metal waste? Landfill? Incinerators? Recycling?

So, lets say Anthropological Climate Change is debatable: The science is rigorous but the conclusions are imprecise (I think that is fair - if you want to argue with mathematics or chemistry, then I can't help). Everything that is manufactured requires energy. Every facet of food production requires energy. Every process of wastage, be it landfill or incinerator, requires energy. We know that the planet can sustain CO2 and other pollution related gasses within certain thresholds (is reasonable, no?). We can measure releases and calculate the rate of increase of atmospheric carbon: This is fact. We can measure temperature and see that the upward trend correlates almost exactly, alongside the rise in atmospheric carbon. This is open to interpretation but is clear and measurable: The rise temperature can be predicted alongside trends - like weather forecast. This has a degree of uncertainty inherent, but is mathematically sound.

Rising temperatures globally, can be offset by the planet's ability to shed some of this into space. The measurements have indicated that this ability to shed temperatures is slowing: There is a physical barrier to the loss. This is likely very likely a function of the same atmospheric carbon (it correlates almost exactly, once again). The rising temperatures will certainly not be favourable for ice or glaciers (this you can agree for sure).

The global CO2 - H2O interface is a stable one in general. The reaction can be swung one way or another by increasing or reducing the atmospheric CO2. As it goes up, so does ocean pH go down. Rising global temperatures mean rising oceanic temperatures. Warm and acidic seas mean less oxygen being produced by the phytoplankton: Reduced air quality for all. (Especially with the land deforestation increasing globally).

So temperatures are rising. Sea levels are rising. How much? Depends who you believe or listen to. The scientists that record and measure these things are making conservative estimates like those above (linked in the Guardian). Strangely, the biggest naysayers of AGW are bought and paid for by the biggest industrial and mining polluters globally. There is no conflict of interests between their desire for making money but creating vast quantities of pollution, and their desire to shoot down those low paid scientists (with little or no financial incentive to say so) saying that the pollution will harm the planet via warming.

One Stanford University study suggests a rise of between 1.5 to 6 feet, globally by 2100. The downside is that they are also predicting more severe storms, occurring more frequently. 1 foot rise but with bad coastal storms is going to make for a lot of damage (a little less than half the planets humans live coastally).

Temp wise, again, Stanford estimate a rise of 1.5 to 8 degrees C, by 2100, globally. Even 1.5 degrees is a lot. Means less predictable weather for a start. Means more droughts, crop failures and more hunger - tied to growing population (0.5% global rise in population per year currently).

I think that the good news is that the oil production is peaking/peaked, and there will be a corresponding fall in both living standards and quality of life world wide, during the 90 years or so of these predictions. Once this starts to crash downwards (and there isn't anything remotely close to Oil in terms of EROEI ) we will see mass starvation, war, disease and other unpleasantry. By 2200, the wolds population will be less than half what it is now - unless we tackle these issues now, while we are comfortable, equipped to do so, with an abundance of strong and healthy human labour. Factor in the global warming, rising sea levels, soil and water pollution to come (and we've been pretty poisonous so far), and we have a much less hospitable planet to bequeath to our grandchildren (or their grandchildren).


{edit - I think you can see this post will double as a response to your reply, directed towards me}

You have lifted this post and responded to it out of context. I was replying to And@Allertons assertions that we would simply invent our way out of trouble, and the path had been shown to us in SciFi novels. Hence when I say 'Actual Scientists' I am referring to things we know and can prove.

What you mean to say, I'm sure, is that the oceans will become slightly less alkaline. Like they did when CO2 was at 8000 parts per million - it's at 400 ppm now and will likely not rise above 800 ppm even by the end of the century at which point scarcity will cause a natural and economic move to other sources of energy.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=283767.msg9823705#msg9823705

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As the proportion of CO2/H2CO3* increases, the pH decreases depending on the buffering capacity of the water - there is enough CO2 to create an imbalance and push the pH below levels that are conducive to healthy phytoplankton population. They are the chief motor in our planets CO2-O2 exchange mechanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoplankton

Other marine life will be affected due to lowering pH (btw. 'acidification' and lowering pH are effectively the same thing: there are more H+ ions in the water - the chief measure of pH)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

The ANC (acid neutralizing capacity) of the water is decreased by the CO2 imbalance. If you wanted to be picky, you might say that the basicity is decreasing but not necessarily the alkalinity - Total Alkalinity can still be measured at low pH as there will be some concentration of conjugate base ions present in the water. One factor that might dramatically decrease alkalinity is dilution of the seawater by freshwater, such as from melted polar ice caps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity

The big dangers are reduced air quality due to less O2 in atmosphere and that the system is slow moving and hard to stop - big changes to correct the CO2 imbalance may be too late for a lot of people who have illness due to reduced air quality, exacerbated by other pollution factors. O2 concentrations above most industrial cities are much lower than they should be for healthy respiratory function - this will make things much worse.

Another danger is that the oceans create a feedback loop with solar radiation as the ocean region albedo decreases, increasing the amount of 'warming' IR radiation getting to the planet surface. Warmer oceans mean more favorable conditions for things that are not good for current ocean ecology. Warmer planet means higher sea levels, changing weather patterns and less favorable conditions for us.

This is what I would say. If you want to argue with Chemistry, I can't help you.

As for the 'natural and economic' move to other sources of energy: What are they? Please digress:

When will these changes take place - what timescale are we looking here: 10-25 years? 50-100? 150+?

What are the 'nature' or 'economic' triggers to precipitate the 'move' - will it have to be threat of global extinction? Will it be an cost driven?

Are they polluting - More or less than current energy generation?

What is your framing for these:

Does this include the current population levels, standard of living and quality of life - We saw what has happened when Oil's huge EROEI boomed 5+ billion people onto the planet; will this new tech have a likewise massive EROEI and precipitate further population growth?

Does this include as yet undiscovered technology/resources - is this something we are going to have to invent /design or find?

Do they require renewable or finite resources - what is the fuel: Laws of thermodynamics say we need to do something to get energy back; so is it a fuel to burn/catalyze etc.? Will it be some kind of converter, that utilizes sea motion, wind, geothermal, solar?

Will it be a power cell, individual to local level technology - will it be able to power cars, agricultural vehicles, public transport?

Will it be a large scaled tech to allow power grid level supply of cities?

Lets say for sure that we will fix global warming/climate change (if it even exists) and have a low cost, completely renewable, nonpolluting magic energy bean:

Will we still need to mine metals, grow food, fish the sea?

Will there still be conflict - what delights might the military r&d bods come up with? Will there be still be resource wars?

What about population? With none of fossil fuels downsides, and all of the positives, how many people will there be?

AGW/Climate change is a function of population - it is a facet of the bigger and less solvable problem. Removing global warming, without solving the population problem, will result in certain planetary doom anyway. We are heading into an evolutionary cul de sac: The only way out is to be smart and manage the decline (in population size, consumer culture, growth based economic structures, debt based economy) before it's too late to put the breaks on.

As you have had time to read the thread, read/watch these and ponder the math problems.

Arithmetic, Population and Energy - a talk by Al Bartlett (this should be compulsory viewing at high school level.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/02/my-great-hope-for-the-future/#more-798

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Expect More:

Reading; story-telling; gardening; connection with nature; community; fishing; whittling; lemonade; sitting on the front porch; cross-breezes; seasonal adjustment; blankets; wool socks; sweaters; connection to sunrise/sunset; local governance; mom & pop stores; crafts; goats and chickens; bicycles; train rides; pies cooling on the sill; music; singing and playing musical instruments; rain catchment; canning; craftsmanship; repair; durable goods.
Expect Less:

Waiting for airplanes; commuting; abstract/meaningless jobs; Wal-Mart; fast food; strip malls; four-car families; climate change; dominance of banks; capital gains; disposable junk; junk mail; species extinction; minibar charges; traffic jams; identity theft; freeway noise; advertisements; consumerism; faddish gizmos; cheap plastic crap; outsourcing; industrial effluent; credit card debt
.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 04:50:28 AM by RojoLeón »
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2012, 05:19:21 PM »
I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing against. That you don't agree with the prognosis is fine - we all do that from time to time. I'm sure Zeb can speak up for himself, but he is taking his position from the guardian article, which itself links to the scientific journals that published the findings. Rather than imply that he is in the throws of some kind of hallucination, why not take the basis of his statements to task.
 

What I'm arguing against is the quoting of wildly extreme 'Global Warning' scare figures in a general 'environmental debate' – or indeed in any debate. Let me quote Zeb as a concrete example

 
We're not going to be below the predicted threshold. On current course, we're likely to be 20% over it within 10 years and hit the point of 'bugger we've screwed the planet up' in 5 years. In 20 years, we'll be looking at sea levels rising by between 3 and 7 feet and which will continue to rise by 6 to 12 inches every year afterwards, temperatures 12 degrees C warmer over a lot of the Northern Hemisphere etc etc. Only takes 1000 years to get things back to where we are after that though, so there's still hope if we can manage without around half of all the species currently living. Denial seems a very comforting stance in comparison to what the climate scientists are saying.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/09/fossil-fuel-infrastructure-climate-change?cat=environment&type=articlewww.

Zeb is putting forward these views of future climate changes in support of, or as part of, a general discussion into the protection of the environment. If you do that then you implicitly agree with the figures you're quoting and are asking me, the reader, to accept that you (and you're figures) are correct. When those views are so far beyond any plausible physical reality (as a still keen student of QM I should be careful of phrases like 'physical reality'  ;D) then all it does is adversely effect the readers view on other aspects of your argument.

As you've probably guessed by now, I have a particular interest in, and am highly sceptical of, all the hysteria surrounding 'Catastrophic Anthropomorphic Global Warming'. ;D
 
My views on the 'Environment Movement' are by no means dismissive. Like Andy@Allerton seems to have been saying, much of what the environmental lobby propounds makes good sense – BUT - I often find that it is taken to unacceptable political, economic, and physically implausible extremes. Like my attitude in science generally, I tend to the positivist view. I believe that the problems being stated are often overstated and that, as in the past, science and technology will be able to solve those problems as they arise.

Andy put forward the 'Science Fiction' science that does come to fruition on occasion and he is right. Even more significant are often the things which the science fiction writers can't even imagine. I think it was Rumsfeld (?) who took a lot of stick re his 'things we don't know we don't know' speech but it holds a lot of truth. How could anyone, sitting in the middle/late 19th century, look at classical science and possibly believe that it would all be swept away within a mere 20 years.

It has always been thus.

I firmly believe that the (very large) amounts of money and resources that are spent at CERN and Fermilab are pennies well spent.

Why? I don't know. Except that throughout history it has proved to money and resource well spent. It is an unashamedly positivist attitude.   
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2012, 05:34:51 PM »
Can I just say, this isn't a single issue thread. It is more regarding the economic imperative which is driving pollution and climactic changes.

Money versus the Earth to simplify things. Climate change is part of that, but so is global population growth, energy future, general pollution issues and growth based economics.
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2012, 08:31:58 PM »
Can I just say, this isn't a single issue thread. It is more regarding the economic imperative which is driving pollution and climactic changes.

Money versus the Earth to simplify things. Climate change is part of that, but so is global population growth, energy future, general pollution issues and growth based economics.

I fully accept the multi issue nature of the thread RojoLeón. My positivist leanings mean that on energy production, for instance, I feel that developments in fusion power will solve our long term energy requirements. Your own National Ignition Facility (Livermore CA?) is on the cusp as we speak - that has been said on a number of occasions over the last few decades mind. :D

I look at promising developments locally on pollution and recycling. I have Green, Brown and Blue bins for different classes of waste collection, a scheme which is now self financing for our local government - even 10 years ago I'd have struggled to believe it. All sane and sensible developments.

On population levels - we have seen that when societies reach a certain level of prosperity the birth rate falls to a point that simply replaces those dying. A natural system with negative feed-backs? ;D

The major problem I have with 'Global Warming' is that I think it likely that it will be found that the climate follows most natural systems and it will prove to have a net negative feed-back - a la Le Chatelier's principle. When the public learn that truly huge amounts of their money have been wasted chasing the chimera of reducing CO2 emissions there will be an almighty back-lash. The danger, of course, is that it will be directed at all fundamental research and at all science - and not just at the corrupted and incompetent group headed by Michael Mann, Phil Jones and the rest of the 'hockey team'.

As such, if I see people making claims which (IMO I know) are far beyond plausible physical reality then I will post my objections. The repeated repetition of such claims leads to an atmosphere which has allowed politicians to waste precious public money and resources on lunacies such as 'wind  farms'. Nuclear energy would provide a viable alternative to fossil fuel use but , of course, would bring other objections. Going Nuclear at least it provides an alternative solution - wind power, at extreme cost, doesn't even provide a solution. Glad to say that in the UK, at least, some light can be seen at the end of the (dark) tunnel. It looks that wind power subsidies will be phased out completely by 2018.   

 
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2012, 08:43:33 PM »
I fully accept the multi issue nature of the thread RojoLeón. My positivist leanings mean that on energy production, for instance, I feel that developments in fusion power will solve our long term energy requirements. Your own National Ignition Facility (Livermore CA?) is on the cusp as we speak - that has been said on a number of occasions over the last few decades mind. :D

I look at promising developments locally on pollution and recycling. I have Green, Brown and Blue bins for different classes of waste collection, a scheme which is now self financing for our local government - even 10 years ago I'd have struggled to believe it. All sane and sensible developments.

On population levels - we have seen that when societies reach a certain level of prosperity the birth rate falls to a point that simply replaces those dying. A natural system with negative feed-backs? ;D

The major problem I have with 'Global Warming' is that I think it likely that it will be found that the climate follows most natural systems and it will prove to have a net negative feed-back - a la Le Chatelier's principle. When the public learn that truly huge amounts of their money have been wasted chasing the chimera of reducing CO2 emissions there will be an almighty back-lash. The danger, of course, is that it will be directed at all fundamental research and at all science - and not just at the corrupted and incompetent group headed by Michael Mann, Phil Jones and the rest of the 'hockey team'.

As such, if I see people making claims which (IMO I know) are far beyond plausible physical reality then I will post my objections. The repeated repetition of such claims leads to an atmosphere which has allowed politicians to waste precious public money and resources on lunacies such as 'wind  farms'. Nuclear energy would provide a viable alternative to fossil fuel use but , of course, would bring other objections. Going Nuclear at least it provides an alternative solution - wind power, at extreme cost, doesn't even provide a solution. Glad to say that in the UK, at least, some light can be seen at the end of the (dark) tunnel. It looks that wind power subsidies will be phased out completely by 2018.   

What is your scientific basis for disagreeing with AGW/Climate change? That you don't like the conclusions or prognosis is ok: But where have you sourced your fundamental scientific evidence that the research or scientific studies are wrong?

Mind, that the major opponents are the likes of Koch brothers, Gina Rinehart, Lord Monckton etc.. If that is your basis for disagreement, then I can't help - if you quote from Cato, then politely, I think we're done. (read the opening post).

{edit - I'd include Heartland alongside Cato for obvious reasons}
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:59:26 PM by RojoLeón »
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline -Q-

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2012, 08:56:41 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/jun/18/campaigners-end-fossil-fuel-subsidies

Whilst it is no surprise to find Monbiot a generic Guardianista playing fast and loose with the truth, I am amazed at how quickly Twitter can engender so much self-righteous indignation in so many on the basis of transient whims and fraudulent statistics.

***Edit: Article was actually by Duncan Clark, not Monbiot. Sorry.***

Most of the $1 trillion subsidies they are opposing are actually in place in oil rich and poor, developing countries.  If you want to argue that poor people in India should be paying more for their cooking fuel, go right ahead.  The figures used to arrive at the "subsidy" in the West are largely due to tax breaks - such as the fact that VAT on fuel in the UK is 5% rather than 20%.  If you want to argue that we need to get rid of the "fossil fuel subsidy" you can't also whine about energy prices or fuel poverty.  Furthermore, it is totally disingenuous to suggest this is a "fossil fuel subsidy" because it applies to renewable energy too.  In the US, $2.9bn of the "fossil fuel subsidy" is the low-income home energy assistance that helps poor people heat their homes in the winter.  In Australia, the government grants $5bn in fuel tax credits to companies with environmentally friendly trucks.  Does George Monbiot want to abolish these "subsidies?"
 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/06/pictures/120618-large-fossil-fuel-subsidies/#/energy-fuel-subsidies-iran_55104_600x450.jpg
http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/energy/great-energy-challenge/global-energy-subsidies-map/
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:01:13 PM by -Q- »
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2012, 09:01:09 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/jun/18/campaigners-end-fossil-fuel-subsidies

Whilst it is no surprise to find Monbiot playing fast and loose with the truth, I am amazed at how quickly Twitter can engender so much self-righteous indignation in so many on the basis of transient whims and fraudulent statistics.

Most of the $1 trillion subsidies they are opposing are actually in place in oil rich and poor, developing countries.  If you want to argue that poor people in India should be paying more for their cooking fuel, go right ahead.  The figures used to arrive at the "subsidy" in the West are largely due to tax breaks - such as the fact that VAT on fuel in the UK is 5% rather than 20%.  If you want to argue that we need to get rid of the "fossil fuel subsidy" you can't also whine about energy prices or fuel poverty.  Furthermore, it is totally disingenuous to suggest this is a "fossil fuel subsidy" because it applies to renewable energy too.  In the US, $2.9bn of the "fossil fuel subsidy" is the low-income home energy assistance that helps poor people heat their homes in the winter.  In Australia, the government grants $5bn in fuel tax credits to companies with environmentally friendly trucks.  Does George Monbiot want to abolish these "subsidies?"
 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/06/pictures/120618-large-fossil-fuel-subsidies/#/energy-fuel-subsidies-iran_55104_600x450.jpg
http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/energy/great-energy-challenge/global-energy-subsidies-map/

Fuck Monbiot, thank you very much.

{edit - fuck him anyway}
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:27:06 AM by RojoLeón »
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2012, 10:48:20 PM »
What is your scientific basis for disagreeing with AGW/Climate change? That you don't like the conclusions or prognosis is ok: But where have you sourced your fundamental scientific evidence that the research or scientific studies are wrong?

Mind, that the major opponents are the likes of Koch brothers, Gina Rinehart, Lord Monckton etc.. If that is your basis for disagreement, then I can't help - if you quote from Cato, then politely, I think we're done. (read the opening post).

{edit - I'd include Heartland alongside Cato for obvious reasons}

It would take me a long time to go through the through all the reasons for my scepticism of CAGW. A lot comes from the corruption of the scientific method and ethics by the 'hockey team' I suppose.

Specifically though, I've already mentioned one of the most significant – a simple 'back of an envelope calculation' on the expected, as opposed to observed, temp rise over the last 60 years.

A priori, we would expect a 'natural system in equilibrium', such as the climate, to have negative feedbacks. This doesn't mean that the climate system 'has' to have negative feedbacks, just that we should expect some convincing proof that it bucks the norm. Nothing more than the normal scientific method. One of my great heroes was the Physicist Richard Feyman who encapsulated the scientific method beautifully.

When looking for a new law

You guess it
You then compute the consequences
You then compare those with experiment or observations.
If those observations don't agree with your calculations – then your theory is wrong.
Full stop. Wrong.

The IPCC theory that the climate sensitivity is ~ 3.5 predicts that the temp rise post the second world war should have been ~ 1.3 deg C. Observations show that it was ~ 0.5. Therefore, a posteriori, the IPCC theory is wrong.  There could, of course, be extenuating circumstances and 60 years is not a long time on which to make a decision. Still, it's an important indication.

Remember that the IPCC model insists that CO2 is the prime driver of temp on earth. Temperatures have been flat for the past 13-14 years whilst CO2 levels have continued to rise.  Again, in no way conclusive, but yet another indication.

The 18 or so models that form the basis of the IPCC's predictions take NO cognisance of the effects of the magnetic activity of the sun on temperatures here on earth. The correlations are quite exquisite. Even if they insist that Svensmark's   theory explaining them is wrong – to ignore the demonstrated correlation is simply awful, and indeed bigoted, science.

If you've an hour to spend, I can highly recommend Kirkby's lecture on his work at CERN. A 'proper' scientist doing 'proper' science. And enjoyable too! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63AbaX1dE7I

These and many, many other examples lead to scepticism of the prime claims of CAGW.

Global warming – certainly – we've been warming for the last 150 years.
Anthropomorphic – certainly some – 2xCO2 will increase temp by < ~ 1 deg C
Catastrophic – I'm sceptical!

PS
The fact that Monckton is something of a head case (;D) doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong! If the data doesn't agree with theory would mean that he's wrong!  ;D

Edit
I dug out where the Feyman quote came from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdHiA-wc1Xo

I can certainly recommend EVERY Feyman lecture on the web!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:55:22 PM by lfcderek »
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Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #91 on: June 19, 2012, 12:02:27 AM »
It would take me a long time to go through the through all the reasons for my scepticism of CAGW. A lot comes from the corruption of the scientific method and ethics by the 'hockey team' I suppose.

Specifically though, I've already mentioned one of the most significant – a simple 'back of an envelope calculation' on the expected, as opposed to observed, temp rise over the last 60 years.

A priori, we would expect a 'natural system in equilibrium', such as the climate, to have negative feedbacks. This doesn't mean that the climate system 'has' to have negative feedbacks, just that we should expect some convincing proof that it bucks the norm. Nothing more than the normal scientific method. One of my great heroes was the Physicist Richard Feyman who encapsulated the scientific method beautifully.

When looking for a new law

You guess it
You then compute the consequences
You then compare those with experiment or observations.
If those observations don't agree with your calculations – then your theory is wrong.
Full stop. Wrong.

The IPCC theory that the climate sensitivity is ~ 3.5 predicts that the temp rise post the second world war should have been ~ 1.3 deg C. Observations show that it was ~ 0.5. Therefore, a posteriori, the IPCC theory is wrong.  There could, of course, be extenuating circumstances and 60 years is not a long time on which to make a decision. Still, it's an important indication.

Remember that the IPCC model insists that CO2 is the prime driver of temp on earth. Temperatures have been flat for the past 13-14 years whilst CO2 levels have continued to rise.  Again, in no way conclusive, but yet another indication.

The 18 or so models that form the basis of the IPCC's predictions take NO cognisance of the effects of the magnetic activity of the sun on temperatures here on earth. The correlations are quite exquisite. Even if they insist that Svensmark's   theory explaining them is wrong – to ignore the demonstrated correlation is simply awful, and indeed bigoted, science.

If you've an hour to spend, I can highly recommend Kirkby's lecture on his work at CERN. A 'proper' scientist doing 'proper' science. And enjoyable too! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63AbaX1dE7I

These and many, many other examples lead to scepticism of the prime claims of CAGW.

Global warming – certainly – we've been warming for the last 150 years.
Anthropomorphic – certainly some – 2xCO2 will increase temp by < ~ 1 deg C
Catastrophic – I'm sceptical!

PS
The fact that Monckton is something of a head case (;D) doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong! If the data doesn't agree with theory would mean that he's wrong!  ;D

Edit
I dug out where the Feyman quote came from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdHiA-wc1Xo

I can certainly recommend EVERY Feyman lecture on the web!

You've not given us anything to doubt the science of climate change. You have repeated memes that have long been debunked and you've attacked the integrity of climate science and scientists. You have also failed to provide any quantification or evidence that the theory of anthropogenic climate change is wrong.

The results of the hockey stick have been replicated numerous times, using different methodologies and proxies. To insinuate that there's been 'corruption of the scientific method and ethics' is pure rubbish. Papers were published, subjected to peer review and replicated numerous times. That's how science works and knowledge develops.

You claim that the 'IPCC theory' - what exactly do you mean by this? - is wrong based on a vague calculation of climate sensitivity is baffling at best. As is your claim that CO2 being the prime driver of climate change means that we should expect uninterrupted temperature increases. You are ignoring timescales and the different factors affecting global temperatures at any one point. The past decade has seen a deep solar minimum as well as a series of La Ninas, including one of the strongest on record, both of which have a cooling effect on global temperatures. Drawing conclusions on such short timescales makes no sense in climate science. And your claim that a doubling of CO2 only causes less than 1C degree of warming is not supported by the bulk of the scientific literature.

You don't seem to have a proper understanding of what climate science is doing. It has made predictions which have been verified - not only are global temperatures rising, the upper atmosphere is cooling, nights are warming faster than days, and there is direct observational evidence of an energy imbalance with less infrared radiation escaping to space and more infrared radiation returning to the Earth's surface. All of this is consistent with what you'd expect from a rise in greenhouse gases - no other factors can explain all these phenomena. So what we have is this: on one hand, we have the theory of anthropogenic climate change which is supported by thousands of scientific papers written by scientists working in many different fields and countries. It has made predictions which have been verified, it is consistent with observations and it has not been falsified in any way. On the other hand, we have virtually nothing. You claim to value science so your position makes no sense to me.

As for cosmic rays, there is much uncertainty and a clear lack of correlation between them and global temperatures over the past 30 years. The correlation between cosmic rays and low clouds ended in the early 1990s. You'd also expect greater variation in cloud cover linked to cosmic rays at high latitudes since cosmic radiation varies more in those areas. This is not being observed. So there are huge question marks on the role of cosmic rays, and although it is accepted that cosmic rays do have an effect on climate, it is very unlikely that they are responsible for recent trends. Also, since you mention Kirkby and CERN, the experiments carried there only looked at whether cosmic rays trigger aerosol formation. They didn't look at whether the solar magnetic field was getting stronger, whether the levels of cosmic radiation reaching the Earth had dropped, whether the aerosols grew to form cloud-condensation nuclei (CCN), whether CCN led to greater cloud formation and whether cloud formation was declining. This doesn't mean that their research is useless, simply, as they say so themselves, that it tells us nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:05:14 AM by Bioluminescence »

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #92 on: June 19, 2012, 05:20:24 AM »
You're the resident rawk expert on theses matters, Biolou. Outstanding post  :wave
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #93 on: June 19, 2012, 08:24:43 AM »
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/light-trapping-0613.html

Textured surface may boost power output of thin silicon solar cells

Highly purified silicon represents up to 40 percent of the overall costs of conventional solar-cell arrays — so researchers have long sought to maximize power output while minimizing silicon usage. Now, a team at MIT has found a new approach that could reduce the thickness of the silicon used by more than 90 percent while still maintaining high efficiency.

The secret lies in a pattern of tiny inverted pyramids etched into the surface of the silicon. These tiny indentations, each less than a millionth of a meter across, can trap rays of light as effectively as conventional solid silicon surfaces that are 30 times thicker.

The new findings are being reported in the journal Nano Letters in a paper by MIT postdoc Anastassios Mavrokefalos, professor Gang Chen, and three other postdocs and graduate students, all of MIT's Department of Mechanical Engineering.

"We see our method as enhancing the performance of thin-film solar cells," Mavrokefalos says, but it would actually work for any silicon cells. "It would enhance the efficiency, no matter what the thickness," he says.

Graduate student Matthew Branham, a co-author of the paper, says, "If you can dramatically cut the amount of silicon [in a solar cell] … you can potentially make a big difference in the cost of production. The problem is, when you make it very thin, it doesn't absorb light as well."

The operation of a solar cell occurs in two basic steps: First, an incoming particle of light, called a photon, enters and is absorbed by the material, rather than reflecting off its surface or passing right through. Second, electrons knocked loose from their atoms when that photon is absorbed then need to make their way to a wire where they can be harnessed to produce an electrical current, rather than just being trapped by other atoms.

Unfortunately, most efforts to increase the ability of thin crystalline silicon to trap photons — such as by creating a forest of tiny silicon nanowires on the surface — also greatly increase the material's surface area, increasing the chance that electrons will recombine on the surface before they can be harnessed.

The new approach avoids that problem. The tiny surface indentations — the team calls them "inverted nanopyramids" — greatly increase light absorption, but with only a 70 percent increase in surface area, limiting surface recombination. Using this method, a sheet of crystalline silicon just 10 micrometers (millionths of a meter) thick can absorb light as efficiently as a conventional silicon wafer 30 times as thick.

That could not only reduce the amount of expensive, highly purified silicon needed to make the solar cells, Mavrokefalos explains, but also cut the weight of the cells, which in turn would reduce the material needed for frames and supports. The potential cost savings are "not only in the cell material, but also in the installation costs," he says.

In addition, the technique developed by Mavrokefalos and his colleagues uses equipment and materials that are already standard parts of silicon-chip processing, so no new manufacturing machinery or chemicals would be required. "It's very easy to fabricate," Mavrokefalos says, yet "it attacks big problems."

To create the tiny dents, the researchers use two sets of overlapping laser beams to produce exceptionally tiny holes in a layer of material — called a photoresist — that is deposited on top of the silicon. This interference lithography technique is scalable to a large area. Following several intermediate steps, a chemical called potassium hydroxide is used to dissolve away parts of the surface that were not covered by the photoresist. The crystal structure of silicon leads this etching process to produce the desired pyramidal shapes in the surface, Mavrokefalos says.

So far, the team has only carried out the first step toward making the new type of solar cells, producing the patterned surface on a silicon wafer and demonstrating its improvement in trapping light. The next step will be to add components to produce an actual photovoltaic cell and then show that its efficiency is comparable to that of conventional solar cells. The expectation is that the new approach should produce energy-conversion efficiencies of about 20 percent — compared to 24 percent for the best current commercial silicon solar cells — but this remains to be proved in practice.

Chen, the Carl Richard Soderberg Professor of Power Engineering and director of MIT's Pappalardo Micro and Nano Engineering Laboratories, says that if all goes well, the system could lead to commercial products in the near future.

Chen says the idea was developed after analyzing a great variety of possible surface configurations in computer simulations, and finding the arrangement that showed the biggest potential improvements in performance. But many teams around the world are pursuing a host of approaches to improving solar-cell performance using different materials, manufacturing methods and configurations.

"It's hard to pick a winner," he says, but this approach has great promise. "We are pretty upbeat that this is a viable approach."

Yi Cui, an associate professor of materials science and engineering at Stanford University, says this work produced "very exciting results. … The potential practical impact of this work could be significant, since it provides an effective structure for photon management for enabling thin cells."

Cui says that since the expense of the silicon material "contributes significantly to the cost of solar cells," developing thin silicon solar cells which can still absorb photons efficiently "is important for reducing the cost."

The work, which also involved postdocs Sang Eon Han and Selcuk Yerci, was supported by the U.S. Department of Energy's Sunshot Program and by the National Science Foundation.

We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2012, 08:26:17 AM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/joris-luyendijk-banking-blog/2012/jun/18/executive-coach-finance-amoral-world

Executive coach: 'Finance is an amoral world, bordering on the immoral'

A psychologist compares the 'twisted minds' of some executives to those of paedophiles he has tried to treat in the past

This blog suffers from an inevitable selection bias, as it can only feature those people in finance who agree to be interviewed. Hence, a second category of interviews with people who come into close contact with the kind of bankers who are unlikely to talk to me. Such as this elegantly dressed man in his early 40s. A psychologist by training, he has been working as an 'executive coach' for the past few years. He orders a coffee, then a glass of red wine.

"In two decades as a psychologist I have encountered perhaps half a dozen people in whom I could not detect at least something positive, if only a sliver. The psychopaths are a really rare breed. But they seduce the rest.

"I am sure your readers are familiar with psychological research comparing the personality traits of prison populations with those of successful managers. It found remarkable similarities; they are narcissistic, egocentric, manipulative … The research has been replicated over at least 12 different populations and the findings are consistent. Criminals and CEOs are remarkably similar.

"We're moving slightly beyond my field of expertise but a question I often ask myself is: who are the owners of those major banks and corporations who figured out that if they want to make so much money, they need to get a psychopath in who will then turn the entire organisation into a ruthless money-making soul-destroying machine? That's pretty clever, isn't it? To find a psychopath to do that for you?

"In youth psychology there's a well-known phenomenon regarding collective self-harming. You have a shelter that's housing, say, 50 boys. All of a sudden and apparently out of nowhere, they all start mutilating themselves. A wave. It's only natural for outsiders to assume that something must be very wrong with that shelter. However, research and experience demonstrate that all you need to do is find the one person who started it. Isolate him from the group and lo and behold, the wave stops and everything goes back to normal.

"Individuals have very powerful influence over groups, and it makes you wonder about banks and financial firms; what if they were like the shelter, and you need to find that one switch, that one person, to turn a whole group around?

"I am an optimist, humans are good animals, we have a tendency to get distracted and be led astray. As for this financial crisis, well, it's only a crisis. That's right, psychologists consider a crisis as simply one point in a cycle of growth; it's when the patient is about to make a breakthrough, and evolve.

"This is what's intriguing about the current financial crisis so far … Where are the thought leaders indicating the path to a new phase in our economic evolution? Who will augur in the growth moment from this crisis? I don't see new ideas coming to the fore.

"My clients are predominantly working in finance, aged somewhere between 32 and 47. They are the cum laude crowd who were always at the head of the pack. All of a sudden and to their astonishment, they find themselves being overtaken by less talented people; it's office politics and they don't know how to play it.

"Firms are pyramids, and a lot of talented people in their late 30s get shunted out. It's a typical bottleneck and my clients come to learn how to navigate it.

"Mid-30s is also when people are just before their mid-life crisis. They have more or less found out who they are, they can sort of see the limit of their potential, and it leads to disenchantment, disillusionment. 'I will not become the next Richard Branson', they realise. "At the same time they see that all good intentions aside, the world is tough place, and you need to be tough to survive and succeed. This is the age when you see people suddenly become serious. They have lost their innocence.

"My clients are from all over the world and they've come to London to fight. This is the top of the top, over here, and the fighting can be ruthless. My clients are the slightly more creative ones, not the standard pin stripe/porte manteau types.

"You asked me earlier what kind of animal the executive coach might be. Maybe it's a salmon, naturally inclined to swim upstream, against the current.

"I have worked in many areas of counselling, including at the very bottom of society; from illiterate heroin prostitutes to bankers. Differences? Bankers and others in the corporate world have extremely high intelligence. They think very much in transactional terms; how can this guy help me get what I want? My first consult is free, and when there's a click between us, I can see them smell a profit. They decide, if I pay this guy his fee, he will help me make much more money myself.

"They have little time so when I work with bankers I am less suggestive. I take charge of the process, lead them to where I think they should go.

"About a quarter of my clients are corporate but not finance. Is there a difference? They are all incredibly tough and everyone says their motivation is money. But when you drill down into what's driving people in the corporate world, other motives come to the surface. With people in finance, it really is money, I find.

"Finance is an amoral world, bordering on the immoral. Take the financial transaction tax. The idea: there is horrific poverty so let's levy a tiny tax and use it to alleviate that. But when I suggest to my clients this might be a good idea, I practically get lynched. No way, they say. They want to pay as little tax as possible, and that's it.

"As I said, amoral bordering on the immoral. Take the PPI mis-selling where essentially banks sold people insurance that was worthless. They get caught and the banks have to pay people their money back. Next thing you know, banks hire incredibly expensive 'consultants' to find ways to pay as little as possible.

"It's almost a perversion. The CEOs such as Fred Goodwin and Jamie Dimon and the like. They present themselves as to the outside world as posh and erudite and sophisticated; as supermen. But they are just like you and me, with similar needs and fears. We shouldn't fall for their spiel.

"What would shock readers most when they saw what I see? Let me think. How so many brilliant, arrogant, super-talented young people get abused, sucked dry, burned out and then tossed aside by corporations and banks. In the early days of capitalism it seems the game was to exploit the less gifted; miners, factory workers etc. Today it's about taking advantage of talent. People are used, then discarded. Especially these days with the crisis. Fear rules supreme. You can get fired any moment, five minutes and you're gone. Corporations fan out over universities making all these promises. But very few people make it to 'the boardroom'. That's the key concept for everyone, 'the boardroom'.

"One of the chief causes of stress is boredom. Now, those people on the trading floor, they may go through hours and hours with nothing to do. Another cause of stress is when the level of control you have over your own life is very low. Banks are managed very badly, in fact they are over-managed. Imagine you have lots of bosses and every week you're told to do your job differently. It can drive people nuts.

"For psychologists like me the world of finance is very interesting, if only in purely clinical terms. You're a CEO and you pay yourself £8m. Now, look at the kind of organisation you need to put in place in order to make that amount … It's almost dirty.

"It gets more interesting still when your company has failed on a range of issues, and at the end of the year you still pay yourself those £8m. There's an outcry but you say: 'it's in my contract'. Now, take a step back, how has that £8m become so important to you that you can't even see why you shouldn't get them? Apparently your need for the money is so strong you stop registering the anger you provoke.

"Those CEOs and managing directors at banks with their millions … They deserve our pity, really. They are the victims of their own twisted minds. And it will bring them down. Whether you are a paedophile or pervert or control freak or psychopath; sooner or later a twisted mind will turn on itself.

"For many years I worked with paedophiles. It is simply astonishing how vulpine, how cunning these people have become. The same with hard drug addicts; their brain seems to have taken on a life of its own, and developed into something so clever, so entirely focused on satisfying their needs. For those brains, lying and cheating become acceptable, normal even.

"When we treated them, or tried to, the key was to make them realise that they created victims, that people suffered because of them. One thing that struck me about this group of patients – we'd call them 'clients' – was how they seemed to derive immense pleasure from surreptitiously screwing people over, then getting away with it. At the same time they seemed to have a deep urge to get caught.

"The biggest misunderstanding about the people I work with? That they are going to solve this.

"The truth is, there is no system, there is no 'they'. There are just individuals."
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #95 on: June 19, 2012, 01:08:14 PM »
You're the resident rawk expert on theses matters, Biolou. Outstanding post  :wave

:wave Thank you. Though I did miss out a few points but I can save them for next time ;)

Been enjoying the articles you've posted, and will drop you a line when things have calmed down here (moving on Friday, landlord expected in less than one hour)

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2012, 07:44:26 PM »
You've not given us anything to doubt the science of climate change. You have repeated memes that have long been debunked and you've attacked the integrity of climate science and scientists. You have also failed to provide any quantification or evidence that the theory of anthropogenic climate change is wrong.

Surely you've seen some of the 'climategate emails'. And yet you ask why I doubt the integrity of the scientists involved? The consistent decline in the general public's (and at last the MSM) belief in the truth of CAGW comes in no small measure from the attitude and practices highlighted in them. When a 'scientist' says that he would rather destroy his data than give it to people who will only look through it to find errors – is this not a corruption of the scientific method?

Of all the myriad items to crawl from beneath rocks I found the most telling was not an email but a section of code to 'process' raw data.


1 ; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
2 ;
3 ;
4            yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
5           valadj=0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,-0.1,0.3,0.8,
                        1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75   ; fudge factor
6           if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,'Oooops!'
7 ;
8           yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)

This is disgraceful. In any form of scientific endeavor, to 'fudge' the data to conform to what you want the answer to be is indefensible. No?

Quote
The results of the hockey stick have been replicated numerous times, using different methodologies and proxies. To insinuate that there's been 'corruption of the scientific method and ethics' is pure rubbish.


The 'hockey stick' must be one of the most debunked pieces of nonsense in the history of science! Even Mann et al have been forced to reintroduce the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. - features which were airbrushed out in MBH98 and MBH99 by the use of statistical methods which would produce a hockey stick from 'red noise'!. 

Quote

You claim that the 'IPCC theory' - what exactly do you mean by this? - is wrong based on a vague calculation of climate sensitivity is baffling at best. As is your claim that CO2 being the prime driver of climate change means that we should expect uninterrupted temperature increases. You are ignoring timescales and the different factors affecting global temperatures at any one point.


As for cosmic rays, there is much uncertainty and a clear lack of correlation between them and global temperatures over the past 30 years. The correlation between cosmic rays and low clouds ended in the early 1990s. You'd also expect greater variation in cloud cover linked to cosmic rays at high latitudes since cosmic radiation varies more in those areas.

Nobody is claiming that we should expect uninterrupted temperature increases from a given forcing source. Paradoxically, one of the great Gurus of CAGW ( I think it was Trenberth but I can't swear to it to be honest) has said that if the current flat lining of temperatures were to last for 17 years, then it would show that CO2 was being overstated at the expense of some other, unknown, natural forcing. I have to admit that this seems too short a time to me - although the clock is ticking and is currently showing 13 years.

Indeed, the fact that temperatures rose by the same amount and at the same rate between 1910-1940 (without CO2 rises) and 1970-2000 (with CO2 rises) doesn't mean that CO2 is having no impact. This is natural climate variability. What this does show is that there exists driving forces which are at least as powerful as that of CO2. When you look at the table of forcings in AR4, GHG amount to 2.8 W/m^2 (CO2 =1.8 ) with little significant positive forcings elsewhere. It is these forcings that the models use to predict future climate.

Numerous studies over time-scales of hundreds, thousands, and 10s of thousands of years show a strong correlation between GCR and average earth temperatures.

The, now re-instated, Little Ice Age followed the Maunder and Dalton minimums of the 17th and 18th centuries. No great decline in CO2 was present then.

The, now re-instated, MWP was not accompanied by any dramatic rises in CO2 during the 1000AD-1200AD period.

The Little Ice Age, as do 12 other periods during the Holocene, provides a strong prima facie case for the strong involvement of GCR in the earth's climate. This leaves the situation that since the models that the IPCC use do not include any forcings from GCR they are simply wrong – or perhaps, more accurately, they are incomplete.

If you've seen the graphs showing the correlation and still feel that the current crop of GCMs, which have man made CO2 (and other GHGs) as the only major driver, are a complete solution then that would appear to be that. I have failed to convince you.

I find the correlations compelling and that they indicate that major forcings are missing from current climate models.
Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #97 on: June 19, 2012, 08:06:24 PM »
snip

Can you cite and perhaps link to, the specific studies which debunk any of the major findings upon which climate science is founded upon (specifically relating to global warming/climate change).

Ta
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2012, 09:58:23 PM »
Surely you've seen some of the 'climategate emails'. And yet you ask why I doubt the integrity of the scientists involved? The consistent decline in the general public's (and at last the MSM) belief in the truth of CAGW comes in no small measure from the attitude and practices highlighted in them. When a 'scientist' says that he would rather destroy his data than give it to people who will only look through it to find errors – is this not a corruption of the scientific method?

Of all the myriad items to crawl from beneath rocks I found the most telling was not an email but a section of code to 'process' raw data.


1 ; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
2 ;
3 ;
4            yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
5           valadj=0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,-0.1,0.3,0.8,
                        1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75   ; fudge factor
6           if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,'Oooops!'
7 ;
8           yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)

This is disgraceful. In any form of scientific endeavor, to 'fudge' the data to conform to what you want the answer to be is indefensible. No?


The 'hockey stick' must be one of the most debunked pieces of nonsense in the history of science! Even Mann et al have been forced to reintroduce the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. - features which were airbrushed out in MBH98 and MBH99 by the use of statistical methods which would produce a hockey stick from 'red noise'!. 

Nobody is claiming that we should expect uninterrupted temperature increases from a given forcing source. Paradoxically, one of the great Gurus of CAGW ( I think it was Trenberth but I can't swear to it to be honest) has said that if the current flat lining of temperatures were to last for 17 years, then it would show that CO2 was being overstated at the expense of some other, unknown, natural forcing. I have to admit that this seems too short a time to me - although the clock is ticking and is currently showing 13 years.

Indeed, the fact that temperatures rose by the same amount and at the same rate between 1910-1940 (without CO2 rises) and 1970-2000 (with CO2 rises) doesn't mean that CO2 is having no impact. This is natural climate variability. What this does show is that there exists driving forces which are at least as powerful as that of CO2. When you look at the table of forcings in AR4, GHG amount to 2.8 W/m^2 (CO2 =1.8 ) with little significant positive forcings elsewhere. It is these forcings that the models use to predict future climate.

Numerous studies over time-scales of hundreds, thousands, and 10s of thousands of years show a strong correlation between GCR and average earth temperatures.

The, now re-instated, Little Ice Age followed the Maunder and Dalton minimums of the 17th and 18th centuries. No great decline in CO2 was present then.

The, now re-instated, MWP was not accompanied by any dramatic rises in CO2 during the 1000AD-1200AD period.

The Little Ice Age, as do 12 other periods during the Holocene, provides a strong prima facie case for the strong involvement of GCR in the earth's climate. This leaves the situation that since the models that the IPCC use do not include any forcings from GCR they are simply wrong – or perhaps, more accurately, they are incomplete.

If you've seen the graphs showing the correlation and still feel that the current crop of GCMs, which have man made CO2 (and other GHGs) as the only major driver, are a complete solution then that would appear to be that. I have failed to convince you.

I find the correlations compelling and that they indicate that major forcings are missing from current climate models.

Whatever the 'climategate' emails showed, they did not show corruption. The fact that no one's managed to show corruption in the scientific work of those involved should tell you as much. The sharing of data is a complex issue, particularly when it involves the likes of McIntyre who goes out of his way to make insinuations about the integrity of scientists. Ideally it should be open to all, and people are working towards that, but this is not necessary - there is more than enough data available to work on. Yet deniers have yet to publish a single article that makes a strong point on the validity of the work of other scientists.

The hockey stick hasn't been debunked. It's alive and well, and has been found in reconstructions using boreholes, tree rings, stalagmites, corals, etc. I don't know why you choose to ignore all of this, maybe you can explain it to me.

If you look at all the heat sinks, i.e. you include the oceans, the Earth has carried on accumulating heat. The atmosphere is a lot more variable but the signal in the oceans is pretty clear. Also the warmest years in most surface reconstructions were 2005 and 2010, which doesn't quite support your claim. It'll be interesting to see what happens if an El Nino develops, or even if we get ENSO-neutral conditions. Some expect record-breaking temperatures in the next two to three years if that happens.

If you're saying that the warming of recent decades in down to natural variability, then you need data analyses to support this claim. Scientists have looked at many factors, including the sun, and these simply cannot explain recent warming. Incidentally, the warming of early 20th century is attributed predominantly to the sun in the IPCC, but there's no evidence the sun is behind recent warming. As I said in my previous post, patterns of atmospheric warming, cooling of the stratosphere, nights warming faster than days, winters warming faster than summers and patterns of ocean warming are consistent with an enhanced greenhouse effect. If the sun were responsible, you'd get stratospheric warming, days warming faster than days, etc.

Again, the link between cosmic rays and recent warming simply isn't there. It's all very well saying there's a correlation in historical reconstructions, it doesn't mean cosmic rays are driving recent warming. That's just not scientific. Again you need data analysis. I'm open-minded but I can only base my opinion on actual evidence. Until someone shows conclusively that another factor is playing an important role, I've no reason to accept that this is the case. As I've already pointed out, there are huge gaps in the hypothesis that current warming is caused primarily by cosmic rays, and that's why I'm very sceptical of your claim, especially as you've not substantiated it. Can you show me studies that support this claim?

The MWP and LIA were not deleted, they're discussed in AR4. But the accumulation of evidence shows that they were probably not global, simultaneous phenomena, hence the fact they're not as prominent as they were in some previous reconstructions. More data, and better data as some of the past reconstructions such as Lamb's used anecdotal evidence, simply showed that other parts of the globe were behaving noticeably differently. There's still plenty of debate going on but fundamentally an even more pronounced MWP or LIA doesn't tell us much about recent warming, except that climate sensitivity may be greater than currently estimated.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2012, 10:43:39 PM »
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2115

Quote
Spring 2012 in the contiguous U.S. demolished the old records for hottest spring and most extreme season of any kind, said NOAA's National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) on Thursday. With the warmest March, third warmest April, and second warmest May, the March - April - May spring season was 5.2°F above average--the largest temperature departure from average of any season on record for the contiguous United States. What's truly remarkable is the margin the old record was broken by--spring 2012 temperatures were a full 1°F above the previous most extreme season, the winter of 1999 - 2000. All-time seasonal temperature records are very difficult to break, and are usually broken by only a tenth of a degree. To see the old record crushed by a full degree is a stunning and unparalleled event in U.S. meteorological history.



I'm glad that California enjoyed a mild (though dry) and temperate Spring!

This gif highlights how data can be used to tell two differing stories

We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Online The Gulleysucker

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2012, 10:45:26 PM »
....Of all the myriad items to crawl from beneath rocks I found the most telling was not an email but a section of code to 'process' raw data.


1 ; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
2 ;
3 ;
4            yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
5           valadj=0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,-0.1,0.3,0.8,
                        1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75   ; fudge factor
6           if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,'Oooops!'
7 ;
8           yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)

This is disgraceful. In any form of scientific endeavor, to 'fudge' the data to conform to what you want the answer to be is indefensible. No?
....

I'm not in a position to comment on the other items but I'd be very wary of making any assumption on the basis of the comment in that fragment of IDL code from 1998.

Over the years, many's the time I've personally commented lines in code I've written with the words 'fudge factor' or similar cryptic statements that can appear ambiguous to non-coders or those unfamiliar with what the program is actually doing. Such lines usually indicate a perturbation or adjustment and for many different and sensible and sound reasons.
(If you are somehow really cheating and up to no good in your code, I don't think you would advertise the fact with a comment. You would obfuscate it quite carefully)

So in isolation, it's telling you little, and I think to focus on the use of the word 'fudge' in such a coding comment as some kind of clear evidence of systematic fraud is unwise.

As it happens, a quick google on that very line reveals many other people like myself that feel the same way and also have looked a bit deeper to see what that particular code is doing.

It appears to be trying to compare tree ring data from two different time line epochs, hence the 'fudge', and the published results came with caveats explaining how it was done. As such, it seems a reasonable approach.

There's an excellent breakdown and references to the published papers here .. http://blog.jgc.org/2009/11/very-artificial-correction-flap-looks.html
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  - Sagan
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Law of Logical Argument   Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #101 on: June 20, 2012, 12:53:47 PM »
I'm not in a position to comment on the other items but I'd be very wary of making any assumption on the basis of the comment in that fragment of IDL code from 1998.

Over the years, many's the time I've personally commented lines in code I've written with the words 'fudge factor' or similar cryptic statements that can appear ambiguous to non-coders or those unfamiliar with what the program is actually doing. Such lines usually indicate a perturbation or adjustment and for many different and sensible and sound reasons.
(If you are somehow really cheating and up to no good in your code, I don't think you would advertise the fact with a comment. You would obfuscate it quite carefully)

So in isolation, it's telling you little, and I think to focus on the use of the word 'fudge' in such a coding comment as some kind of clear evidence of systematic fraud is unwise.

As it happens, a quick google on that very line reveals many other people like myself that feel the same way and also have looked a bit deeper to see what that particular code is doing.

It appears to be trying to compare tree ring data from two different time line epochs, hence the 'fudge', and the published results came with caveats explaining how it was done. As such, it seems a reasonable approach.

There's an excellent breakdown and references to the published papers here .. http://blog.jgc.org/2009/11/very-artificial-correction-flap-looks.html

Oh come on Gulleysucker you don't really believe that do you. The most plausible answer in that this data was consolidated up somewhere and the final results didn't agree with the CAGW paradigm.

“Where's this lot come from?” someone says.
“Australia”
“Anyone got a regional breakdown?”
“On Fred's Desk”.
“What's this from Darwin?. They've been moving bloody thermometers about without telling anyone. Give this array to Fred and tell him to apply these adjustments”
 
Cynical? Yeah.

You sound a decent person and not a cynical old goat like me. But lets take an analogy.

You're an IT Manager (I was in fact).

In comes the FD and informs you that the bloodsucking **** of a Chancellor is imposing a tax at 17.5%.
OK.
“Fred, get the invoicing program and inflate the goods cost by 0.175 and write the records to a file for me”
“I'm on a coffee break. I'll be on it in half an hour.” - Bolshoi sod.
“John, that cash flow suite will want altering and remember that these blood payments fall due every 3 months. Best have a word with the FD mind – can't see him paying up on time”
“I'll get right on it Sir” - nice lad John.

Weeks pass in a Sybaritic haze.

The FD comes in an says “That F****** toe rag has up the rate 20%. Applies from Sunday week”

“Fred, John, get your arses in here”

A few hours later.

“Bloody hell Fred, those lazy gits in Bristol always send their invoices in late. We'll need 2 versions of the program. Two versions of the CL that runs the suite as well”.

“How did you 2 handle the different rates by the way?. Little 2 dimentional array?. OK be careful”.


OK. Enough of the jokes. It doesn’t happen this way does it?

This is a shambolic, incompetent mess.



You create a little physical file call VATRATES
 
Fields of rate, category, date, maybe customer category.

Make sure the appropriate master file amendment programs use the file to check the validity of entries etc. etc. and Bob's your uncle.

So we're left with the fact that, if your view is right, and these are legitimate adjustments – the implementation has been a disgraceful, shambolic mess. Either way, we end up with a hopeless, un-auditable mess. And it is on these shifting sands we attempt to build a sensible response to perceived global threat.

PS

Like you sig.


Four years have past.

“Where's that Australian data Peter?. Where being flooded out here by these bloody FOI requests.”

“The original data?. It got lost when we moved the dept from the old building. The adjusted stuff is up on the net now though.”

“We need the original data. Where's the programmer? Fred was it?”

“Oh, he got himself so harassed by Michael and Phil that he packed it all up. He's in some monastery in Northumbria.”

“Shit.”

Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2012, 01:06:44 PM »
Oh come on Gulleysucker you don't really believe that do you. The most plausible answer in that this data was consolidated up somewhere and the final results didn't agree with the CAGW paradigm.

“Where's this lot come from?” someone says.
“Australia”
“Anyone got a regional breakdown?”
“On Fred's Desk”.
“What's this from Darwin?. They've been moving bloody thermometers about without telling anyone. Give this array to Fred and tell him to apply these adjustments”
 
Cynical? Yeah.

You sound a decent person and not a cynical old goat like me. But lets take an analogy.

You're an IT Manager (I was in fact).

In comes the FD and informs you that the bloodsucking **** of a Chancellor is imposing a tax at 17.5%.
OK.
“Fred, get the invoicing program and inflate the goods cost by 0.175 and write the records to a file for me”
“I'm on a coffee break. I'll be on it in half an hour.” - Bolshoi sod.
“John, that cash flow suite will want altering and remember that these blood payments fall due every 3 months. Best have a word with the FD mind – can't see him paying up on time”
“I'll get right on it Sir” - nice lad John.

Weeks pass in a Sybaritic haze.

The FD comes in an says “That F****** toe rag has up the rate 20%. Applies from Sunday week”

“Fred, John, get your arses in here”

A few hours later.

“Bloody hell Fred, those lazy gits in Bristol always send their invoices in late. We'll need 2 versions of the program. Two versions of the CL that runs the suite as well”.

“How did you 2 handle the different rates by the way?. Little 2 dimentional array?. OK be careful”.


OK. Enough of the jokes. It doesn’t happen this way does it?

This is a shambolic, incompetent mess.



You create a little physical file call VATRATES
 
Fields of rate, category, date, maybe customer category.

Make sure the appropriate master file amendment programs use the file to check the validity of entries etc. etc. and Bob's your uncle.

So we're left with the fact that, if your view is right, and these are legitimate adjustments – the implementation has been a disgraceful, shambolic mess. Either way, we end up with a hopeless, un-auditable mess. And it is on these shifting sands we attempt to build a sensible response to perceived global threat.

PS

Like you sig.


Four years have past.

“Where's that Australian data Peter?. Where being flooded out here by these bloody FOI requests.”

“The original data?. It got lost when we moved the dept from the old building. The adjusted stuff is up on the net now though.”

“We need the original data. Where's the programmer? Fred was it?”

“Oh, he got himself so harassed by Michael and Phil that he packed it all up. He's in some monastery in Northumbria.”

“Shit.”



The problem you still have, though, is that not only are there numerous papers which have replicated the findings of the scientists at the centre of climategate, no one's published papers to show that these findings are fundamentally flawed. So all you have, basically, is vague insinuations of wrongdoing from a small group of scientists, and only by focusing on these vague insinuations can you reach your unfounded conclusions - that the science has been corrupted. Ultimately you can remove all the research that has come from climategate scientists, and the overall findings remain exactly the same.

Online The Gulleysucker

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2012, 02:18:18 PM »

I don't doubt that there are perhaps areas that accusations of questionable behaviour and possible devious fitting of data to ensure outcomes might apply, but just not in that example of code.

It seems to me a perfectly reasonable method to attempt to perform an initial comparison on the two time lines and as I said, if it was a deliberate attempt to mislead, surely it would have been obfuscated and not labelled as 'fudge'.

As the link explains quite clearly (I trust you read the contents and the links within), the code was even later amended  and the paper published using this model even explained what was going on. That's not really evidence of fraud.

As said, I have done similar 'tricks' in the past when called upon to predict the performance of large distributed systems.

If available, I would take a sufficient sample set of currently observed performance metrics, construct a discrete model simulation to attempt to replicate, and then deduce an algorithmic approach for the node behaviour through a process of iteration, even to the extent of inserting 'fudge' factors to get it to produce results that matched the observable real world, and that would then produce the required accuracy for a subsequent analytical modelling approach which again would be iterated and modified and then be validated by selective test runs aganst real systems. Then it could be scaled with appropriate caveats regarding %age error, and then used for predictions.

It seemed to work very well.

Very simplistically, it's rather like most system SLA's will have calculated say 95 %ile response times as 3 x average response. A Mathematician would say that's wrong, but for practical purposes it works fine, so outside of Mathematics, certainly in systems performance, it's not an issue.

As I also said, on the other issues I can't comment though I might have an opinion, but if it's any consolation I'm a reasonably cynical person and I do have my doubts sometimes about the way some 'issues' can appear to be hijacked for commercial and/or political reasons and that funding for scientific research can then possibly seem dependent on and be subject to presssure to only support those viewpoints. But I am also just as cynical these days about the very well financed and organised reaction of vested commercial interests in seeking to denigrate and cast doubt on any research and the methods employed that might result in threatening their business and profits. 

But no matter what, it cuts both ways, and while you can certainly 'fudge' predictions of system behaviour, you can't fudge what then actually happens in the real world and I think all the evidence is indicating it is right for us to be concerned about climatic change and be investigating the possibility of man made causes the best we can.

But I can only repeat what I said earlier, my position is quite firm in that I don't see any evidence that the code shown is a smoking gun and demonstrative of systematic fraud.



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  - Sagan
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
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Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #104 on: June 20, 2012, 02:35:33 PM »
The problem you still have, though, is that not only are there numerous papers which have replicated the findings of the scientists at the centre of climategate, no one's published papers to show that these findings are fundamentally flawed. So all you have, basically, is vague insinuations of wrongdoing from a small group of scientists, and only by focusing on these vague insinuations can you reach your unfounded conclusions - that the science has been corrupted. Ultimately you can remove all the research that has come from climategate scientists, and the overall findings remain exactly the same.

The hockey stick, way back in 98/99, was fundamentally flawed. Wasn't it? The contaminated portion of the upside-down Tiljander was flawed. Briffa's Yamal series was flawed - etc.etc.

I think that these 'flaws' were found by, the seemingly despised figure of, McIntyre.

Had he not been around, would these flaws have been found? They passed 'Peer Review' after all.

A few weeks ago this interfering old so and so found a flaw in Gergis et al (2012).
The paper has been withdrawn pending corrections. Am I wrong, or did this one get through the peer review process as well?

I think we need to agree to disagree here.

I find numerous examples of a 'corrupted scientific method' in 'climate science'.
I find numerous examples of rank incompetence in 'climate science'.

I might add that I consider that climate science has essentially only 2 elements. The 'Net Feedback Factor' (climate sensitivity) - and everything else.

And the everything else doesn't matter all that much.

Do me a favour and take a look at the following.

James Hansen did a study of the very hot summer experienced in, and around, Moscow in 2010.

He collected the data from all the years he could get his hands on from a 1000km box centered on Moscow.
Constructed a bell shaped Gaussian curve.
Calculated the mean average temp.
Calculated the SD.

He found that 2010 deviated from the mean by by a full 3 sigma.
This would give a probability of around 0.3%.
i.e. a 1 in 300 chance of happening by chance.

His conclusion from this study was something like

This 3σ event means that it is nearly certain that they would not have occurred in the absence of global warming. If we don't slow global warming then 3σ events will become normal and 5σ events will be common.

Tell me what you think about about this conclusion. I hope I've been fair in the summary and I've certainly no reason to believe that the computations were not done accurately.

Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2012, 03:54:04 PM »
The hockey stick, way back in 98/99, was fundamentally flawed. Wasn't it? The contaminated portion of the upside-down Tiljander was flawed. Briffa's Yamal series was flawed - etc.etc.

I think that these 'flaws' were found by, the seemingly despised figure of, McIntyre.

Had he not been around, would these flaws have been found? They passed 'Peer Review' after all.

A few weeks ago this interfering old so and so found a flaw in Gergis et al (2012).
The paper has been withdrawn pending corrections. Am I wrong, or did this one get through the peer review process as well?

I think we need to agree to disagree here.

I find numerous examples of a 'corrupted scientific method' in 'climate science'.
I find numerous examples of rank incompetence in 'climate science'.

I might add that I consider that climate science has essentially only 2 elements. The 'Net Feedback Factor' (climate sensitivity) - and everything else.

And the everything else doesn't matter all that much.

Do me a favour and take a look at the following.

James Hansen did a study of the very hot summer experienced in, and around, Moscow in 2010.

He collected the data from all the years he could get his hands on from a 1000km box centered on Moscow.
Constructed a bell shaped Gaussian curve.
Calculated the mean average temp.
Calculated the SD.

He found that 2010 deviated from the mean by by a full 3 sigma.
This would give a probability of around 0.3%.
i.e. a 1 in 300 chance of happening by chance.

His conclusion from this study was something like

This 3σ event means that it is nearly certain that they would not have occurred in the absence of global warming. If we don't slow global warming then 3σ events will become normal and 5σ events will be common.

Tell me what you think about about this conclusion. I hope I've been fair in the summary and I've certainly no reason to believe that the computations were not done accurately.



No, the hockey stick was not fundamentally flawed. It's also worth pointing out that it was one of the first attempts at reconstructing hemispheric temperatures, and therefore there were bound to be teething problems. It turns out that the problem with their methodology had virtually no impact on their findings - that's why their results have been replicated time and again using different methodologies and proxies.

At the end of the day, the findings of climate science are not based on a few papers. They're based on a huge body of converging evidence. The uncertainties and problems are widely acknowledged and discussed in the scientific literature. The work climate scientists carry out is no different than the work carried out by other scientists. It's not unusual for papers to be retracted or for findings to be replaced by subsequent, better findings. To suggest that climate science is corrupt because of this is showing a misunderstanding of how science progresses and it borders on conspiracy theory. You're entitled to your opinion but not to your facts. Frankly, for someone who claims to be bothered about climate science, you seem very keen to accept anything that goes against the grain even if the evidence is effectively non-existent.

As I've already said, the theory of anthropogenic climate change is solid because it's based on established physical principles, because it has made predictions which have been verified, because it is consistent with observations and because we have direct observational evidence of an enhanced greenhouse effect. That's why the theory is supported by the bulk of scientific institutions worldwide. This doesn't mean that scientists know all there is to know and that more research isn't needed, but it does mean that scientists can state things with a good degree of certainty. Climate scientists don't deserve the amount of rubbish that is thrown their way, but it has come to this because no one can find conclusive evidence that they're fundamentally wrong. Smearing is the only way those who have no scientific evidence, or any evidence for that matter, to back up their claims against the consensus. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2012, 04:13:43 PM »
No, the hockey stick was not fundamentally flawed. It's also worth pointing out that it was one of the first attempts at reconstructing hemispheric temperatures, and therefore there were bound to be teething problems. It turns out that the problem with their methodology had virtually no impact on their findings - that's why their results have been replicated time and again using different methodologies and proxies.


OK. Lets have another go.

The 'hockey stick' showed a flat temp from 1000AD through to early/mid 1900s at which point temperatures rose sharply. No MWP. No Little Ice Age.

Can we agree on this first step?

This appeared promintently in AR3 – no fewer than 6 times if memory serves and was debunked by, as you mention, McIntyre .

How?

By showing the flat 900 years was an artifice of incompetent statistics – no corrupted scientific method this time, simply incompetence by Mann, Bradley and Hughes.

You could put 'red noise' into Mann's algorithm and out would come a hockey stick.

With the return of the MWP and the Little Ice Age the 'hockey stick has been debunked – does this explain it to you.

PS

You didn't give your thoughts re Hansen's conclusion in his article.

Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Online The Gulleysucker

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2012, 04:20:34 PM »
....You didn't give your thoughts re Hansen's conclusion in his article.

Just to enable the rest of us to keep up and possibly contribute, do you mean this paper.. http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2011/20111110_NewClimateDice.pdf ?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  - Sagan
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
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Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2012, 05:28:47 PM »
OK. Lets have another go.

The 'hockey stick' showed a flat temp from 1000AD through to early/mid 1900s at which point temperatures rose sharply. No MWP. No Little Ice Age.

Can we agree on this first step?

This appeared promintently in AR3 – no fewer than 6 times if memory serves and was debunked by, as you mention, McIntyre .

How?

By showing the flat 900 years was an artifice of incompetent statistics – no corrupted scientific method this time, simply incompetence by Mann, Bradley and Hughes.

You could put 'red noise' into Mann's algorithm and out would come a hockey stick.

With the return of the MWP and the Little Ice Age the 'hockey stick has been debunked – does this explain it to you.

PS

You didn't give your thoughts re Hansen's conclusion in his article.



No, you're wrong about Mann et al.'s findings on the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. Here's something you might like to read. Some reconstructions show more variability, some show less, but both periods appear in all relevant reconstructions. The hockey stick was not debunked by McIntyre - the findings still stand even when you apply different methodologies and use different proxies.  Improvements were needed, but many hockey sticks have appeared since Mann et al.'s first attempt at hemispheric reconstructions, improving on previous methodologies - something you see in science time and again. Why this obsession with papers that were published more than a decade ago, especially when they were the first attempts to do something new? Why do you ignore all the papers published since then? What about the papers by the likes of Lindzen and Choi or Soon and Baliunas, known sceptics, whose flaws meant that no one could replicate their findings? And in the case of Soon and Baliunas, led to the resignation of half the board of editors since such a poor paper should never have been published? Do you attack these scientists in the same way? Or do we accept that they did the right thing by publishing their papers so that they could be widely reviewed by their peers, with any error/flaw/problem highlighted and subsequent research improved? Because that's what science is about - it's not about individual papers, it's about building knowledge through many papers. And in this context, every paper has something to contribute, and errors do not equate to corruption as you imply quite simplistically. It's also worth pointing out that McIntyre's paper was also debunked since the claim that the hockey stick was an artifact of the statistics used is plain wrong - you get a hockey stick with Mann's data whether you use principal component analysis or not, as shown in this paper.

What is your point about Hansen? Did Gulleysucker provide the link to the article you're talking about? Do you object to what Hansen says?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 06:28:52 PM by Bioluminescence »

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2012, 07:46:51 PM »
Just regarding the issue where scientists 'fudge' their data to fit their conclusions, or retrofit their idea when the data is going a different way than what they first envisaged

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/26/science/essay-a-famous-einstein-fudge-returns-to-haunt-cosmology.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Quote
ESSAY; A Famous Einstein 'Fudge' Returns to Haunt Cosmology

THERE are few scientists of whom it can be said that their mistakes are more interesting than their colleagues' successes, but Albert Einstein was one. Few ''blunders'' have had a longer and more eventful life than the cosmological constant, sometimes described as the most famous fudge factor in the history of science, that Einstein added to his theory of general relativity in 1917. Its role was to provide a repulsive force in order to keep the universe from theoretically collapsing under its own weight.

Einstein abandoned the cosmological constant when the universe turned out to be expanding, but in succeeding years, the cosmological constant, like Rasputin, has stubbornly refused to die, dragging itself to the fore, whispering of deep enigmas and mysterious new forces in nature, whenever cosmologists have run into trouble reconciling their observations of the universe with their theories.   (more at link)

Also, lfcDerek - I wonder if you have read your way through the admittedly long, but excellent Naomi Klein article at the beginning of the thread. She makes several observations which I would like to highlight here for you.

Quote
Claiming that climate change is a plot to steal American freedom is rather tame by Heartland standards. Over the course of this two-day conference, I will learn that Obama’s campaign promise to support locally owned biofuels refineries was really about “green communitarianism,” akin to the “Maoist” scheme to put “a pig iron furnace in everybody’s backyard” (the Cato Institute’s Patrick Michaels). That climate change is “a stalking horse for National Socialism” (former Republican senator and retired astronaut Harrison Schmitt). And that environmentalists are like Aztec priests, sacrificing countless people to appease the gods and change the weather (Marc Morano, editor of the denialists’ go-to website, ClimateDepot.com).

Most of all, however, I will hear versions of the opinion expressed by the county commissioner in the fourth row: that climate change is a Trojan horse designed to abolish capitalism and replace it with some kind of eco-socialism. As conference speaker Larry Bell succinctly puts it in his new book Climate of Corruption, climate change “has little to do with the state of the environment and much to do with shackling capitalism and transforming the American way of life in the interests of global wealth redistribution.”

Yes, sure, there is a pretense that the delegates’ rejection of climate science is rooted in serious disagreement about the data. And the organizers go to some lengths to mimic credible scientific conferences, calling the gathering “Restoring the Scientific Method” and even adopting the organizational acronym ICCC, a mere one letter off from the world’s leading authority on climate change, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). But the scientific theories presented here are old and long discredited. And no attempt is made to explain why each speaker seems to contradict the next. (Is there no warming, or is there warming but it’s not a problem? And if there is no warming, then what’s all this talk about sunspots causing temperatures to rise?)


In truth, several members of the mostly elderly audience seem to doze off while the temperature graphs are projected. They come to life only when the rock stars of the movement take the stage—not the C-team scientists but the A-team ideological warriors like Morano and Horner. This is the true purpose of the gathering: providing a forum for die-hard denialists to collect the rhetorical baseball bats with which they will club environmentalists and climate scientists in the weeks and months to come. The talking points first tested here will jam the comment sections beneath every article and YouTube video that contains the phrase “climate change” or “global warming.” They will also exit the mouths of hundreds of right-wing commentators and politicians—from Republican presidential candidates like Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann all the way down to county commissioners like Richard Rothschild. In an interview outside the sessions, Joseph Bast, president of the Heartland Institute, proudly takes credit for “thousands of articles and op-eds and speeches…that were informed by or motivated by somebody attending one of these conferences.”

Joe bast was a shill for big tobacco before taking on the insidious evil of (poorly paid, public funding dependent) climate scientists, on behalf of those poor weak souls, such as David and Charles Koch. His main sources of funding are from the very fossil fuel industries that are threatened by the findings of climate science. Just like big tobacco, he is taking money and playing the tune his paymasters call - not because the science is wrong, but that the conclusions are contradictory to his paymasters business models.

More regarding the original article:

Quote
But now there is a significant cohort of Republicans who care passionately, even obsessively, about climate change—though what they care about is exposing it as a “hoax” being perpetrated by liberals to force them to change their light bulbs, live in Soviet-style tenements and surrender their SUVs. For these right-wingers, opposition to climate change has become as central to their worldview as low taxes, gun ownership and opposition to abortion. Many climate scientists report receiving death threats, as do authors of articles on subjects as seemingly innocuous as energy conservation. (As one letter writer put it to Stan Cox, author of a book critical of air-conditioning, “You can pry my thermostat out of my cold dead hands.”)

This culture-war intensity is the worst news of all, because when you challenge a person’s position on an issue core to his or her identity, facts and arguments are seen as little more than further attacks, easily deflected. (The deniers have even found a way to dismiss a new study confirming the reality of global warming that was partially funded by the Koch brothers, and led by a scientist sympathetic to the “skeptic” position.)

The effects of this emotional intensity have been on full display in the race to lead the Republican Party. Days into his presidential campaign, with his home state literally burning up with wildfires, Texas Governor Rick Perry delighted the base by declaring that climate scientists were manipulating data “so that they will have dollars rolling into their projects.” Meanwhile, the only candidate to consistently defend climate science, Jon Huntsman, was dead on arrival. And part of what has rescued Mitt Romney’s campaign has been his flight from earlier statements supporting the scientific consensus on climate change.

When you see the money and political vested interest, weighted behind climate science skepticism, you have to ask who benefits - Big capital and the profitable fossil fuel corporations, or a collection of jobbing research scientists, who just want to see the falsities of AGW made public?

Quote
The deniers did not decide that climate change is a left-wing conspiracy by uncovering some covert socialist plot. They arrived at this analysis by taking a hard look at what it would take to lower global emissions as drastically and as rapidly as climate science demands. They have concluded that this can be done only by radically reordering our economic and political systems in ways antithetical to their “free market” belief system. As British blogger and Heartland regular James Delingpole has pointed out, “Modern environmentalism successfully advances many of the causes dear to the left: redistribution of wealth, higher taxes, greater government intervention, regulation.” Heartland’s Bast puts it even more bluntly: For the left, “Climate change is the perfect thing…. It’s the reason why we should do everything [the left] wanted to do anyway.”

Here’s my inconvenient truth: they aren’t wrong. Before I go any further, let me be absolutely clear: as 97 percent of the world’s climate scientists attest, the Heartlanders are completely wrong about the science. The heat-trapping gases released into the atmosphere through the burning of fossil fuels are already causing temperatures to increase. If we are not on a radically different energy path by the end of this decade, we are in for a world of pain.

But when it comes to the real-world consequences of those scientific findings, specifically the kind of deep changes required not just to our energy consumption but to the underlying logic of our economic system, the crowd gathered at the Marriott Hotel may be in considerably less denial than a lot of professional environmentalists, the ones who paint a picture of global warming Armageddon, then assure us that we can avert catastrophe by buying “green” products and creating clever markets in pollution.

And I agree that 'carbon taxes' and 'green consumerism' are obvious attempts to extort money from people. But what is undeniable, is that the monied, industrial right, have come to the conclusion that climate science must be fought due to the threat it poses to their economics and profits.

That's why Heartland and Cato get so much money from big oil/coal etc..

Quote
So in a way, Chris Horner was right when he told his fellow Heartlanders that climate change isn’t “the issue.” In fact, it isn’t an issue at all. Climate change is a message, one that is telling us that many of our culture’s most cherished ideas are no longer viable. These are profoundly challenging revelations for all of us raised on Enlightenment ideals of progress, unaccustomed to having our ambitions confined by natural boundaries. And this is true for the statist left as well as the neoliberal right.

While Heartlanders like to invoke the specter of communism to terrify Americans about climate action (Czech President Vaclav Klaus, a Heartland conference favorite, says that attempts to prevent global warming are akin to “the ambitions of communist central planners to control the entire society”), the reality is that Soviet-era state socialism was a disaster for the climate. It devoured resources with as much enthusiasm as capitalism, and spewed waste just as recklessly: before the fall of the Berlin Wall, Czechs and Russians had even higher carbon footprints per capita than their counterparts in Britain, Canada and Australia. And while some point to the dizzying expansion of China’s renewable energy programs to argue that only centrally controlled regimes can get the green job done, China’s command-and-control economy continues to be harnessed to wage an all-out war with nature, through massively disruptive mega-dams, superhighways and extraction-based energy projects, particularly coal.

Quote
More than that, climate change implies the biggest political “I told you so” since Keynes predicted German backlash from the Treaty of Versailles. Marx wrote about capitalism’s “irreparable rift” with “the natural laws of life itself,” and many on the left have argued that an economic system built on unleashing the voracious appetites of capital would overwhelm the natural systems on which life depends. And of course indigenous peoples were issuing warnings about the dangers of disrespecting “Mother Earth” long before that. The fact that the airborne waste of industrial capitalism is causing the planet to warm, with potentially cataclysmic results, means that, well, the naysayers were right. And the people who said, “Hey, let’s get rid of all the rules and watch the magic happen” were disastrously, catastrophically wrong.

There is no joy in being right about something so terrifying. But for progressives, there is responsibility in it, because it means that our ideas—informed by indigenous teachings as well as by the failures of industrial state socialism—are more important than ever. It means that a green-left worldview, which rejects mere reformism and challenges the centrality of profit in our economy, offers humanity’s best hope of overcoming these overlapping crises.

But imagine, for a moment, how all of this looks to a guy like Heartland president Bast, who studied economics at the University of Chicago and described his personal calling to me as “freeing people from the tyranny of other people.” It looks like the end of the world. It’s not, of course. But it is, for all intents and purposes, the end of his world. Climate change detonates the ideological scaffolding on which contemporary conservatism rests. There is simply no way to square a belief system that vilifies collective action and venerates total market freedom with a problem that demands collective action on an unprecedented scale and a dramatic reining in of the market forces that created and are deepening the crisis.

Climate change denial is economics driven - it is encapsulated by a political demographic who perceive the conclusions to be unsavory.

Quote
At the Heartland conference—where everyone from the Ayn Rand Institute to the Heritage Foundation has a table hawking books and pamphlets—these anxieties are close to the surface. Bast is forthcoming about the fact that Heartland’s campaign against climate science grew out of fear about the policies that the science would require. “When we look at this issue, we say, This is a recipe for massive increase in government…. Before we take this step, let’s take another look at the science. So conservative and libertarian groups, I think, stopped and said, Let’s not simply accept this as an article of faith; let’s actually do our own research.” This is a crucial point to understand: it is not opposition to the scientific facts of climate change that drives denialists but rather opposition to the real-world implications of those facts.

What Bast is describing—albeit inadvertently—is a phenomenon receiving a great deal of attention these days from a growing subset of social scientists trying to explain the dramatic shifts in belief about climate change. Researchers with Yale’s Cultural Cognition Project have found that political/cultural worldview explains “individuals’ beliefs about global warming more powerfully than any other individual characteristic.”

Those with strong “egalitarian” and “communitarian” worldviews (marked by an inclination toward collective action and social justice, concern about inequality and suspicion of corporate power) overwhelmingly accept the scientific consensus on climate change. On the other hand, those with strong “hierarchical” and “individualistic” worldviews (marked by opposition to government assistance for the poor and minorities, strong support for industry and a belief that we all get what we deserve) overwhelmingly reject the scientific consensus.

For example, among the segment of the US population that displays the strongest “hierarchical” views, only 11 percent rate climate change as a “high risk,” compared with 69 percent of the segment displaying the strongest “egalitarian” views. Yale law professor Dan Kahan, the lead author on this study, attributes this tight correlation between “worldview” and acceptance of climate science to “cultural cognition.” This refers to the process by which all of us—regardless of political leanings—filter new information in ways designed to protect our “preferred vision of the good society.” As Kahan explained in Nature, “People find it disconcerting to believe that behaviour that they find noble is nevertheless detrimental to society, and behaviour that they find base is beneficial to it. Because accepting such a claim could drive a wedge between them and their peers, they have a strong emotional predisposition to reject it.” In other words, it is always easier to deny reality than to watch your worldview get shattered, a fact that was as true of die-hard Stalinists at the height of the purges as it is of libertarian climate deniers today
...

...
With so much at stake, it should come as little surprise that climate deniers are, on the whole, those most invested in our highly unequal and dysfunctional economic status quo. One of the most interesting findings of the studies on climate perceptions is the clear connection between a refusal to accept the science of climate change and social and economic privilege. Overwhelmingly, climate deniers are not only conservative but also white and male, a group with higher than average incomes. And they are more likely than other adults to be highly confident in their views, no matter how demonstrably false. A much-discussed paper on this topic by Aaron McCright and Riley Dunlap (memorably titled “Cool Dudes”) found that confident conservative white men, as a group, were almost six times as likely to believe climate change “will never happen” than the rest of the adults surveyed. McCright and Dunlap offer a simple explanation for this discrepancy: “Conservative white males have disproportionately occupied positions of power within our economic system. Given the expansive challenge that climate change poses to the industrial capitalist economic system, it should not be surprising that conservative white males’ strong system-justifying attitudes would be triggered to deny climate change.”

I think this is where you are at yourself, lfcDerek - I think that you fit the 'skeptic' demographic perfectly. White, of an age, is/was management class, above average intelligence, confident in yourself and your insights, above average income

You see, so far, I haven't seen one shed of evidence that the climate science community are wrong. I have seen a lot of guff about hockey sticks (is like an episode of St. Trinians) and fudging, but nothing of substance to base your stated assumptions upon. Can you cite, link or state clearly, the scientific articles/studies upon which contemporary climate science is debunked?

Everywhere I have looked, I have seen the hand of Cato/Monckton/heartland, or a scientist who is funded by the fossil fuel industry (or one of their think tanks). If the science was so evidently false, why am I seeing a damning trail of money behind any efforts to debunk it. Have you yourself asked this question?

This is my take on it and I am yet to be swayed otherwise:

It comes down to money. Infact, climate change denial comes to this:

1. if climate change is true then politically unacceptable consequences flow from it.

2. It is politically unacceptable therefore the consequences cannot be, uh, accepted.

Therefore, climate change isn't true


The science isn't there to back up your assertions to the contrary, otherwise we would be reading and digesting it by now.
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2012, 04:08:13 PM »

Also, lfcDerek - I wonder if you have read your way through the admittedly long, but excellent Naomi Klein article at the beginning of the thread. She makes several observations which I would like to highlight here for you.
 

I suppose I should open with a thank you for the excellent suggestion to go back and actually read the OP. I came in to make a brief (how wrong I was!) reply to a straightforward,  physically implausible statement that temperatures would rise by 12 deg C above present values. This is, of course, a discussion which is about a wider view of environmentalism, and its relationship with capitalism and CAGW.

So, back to your response. You managed to make it both patronizing and offensive.

As an aside, I actually find it quite odd that I took offense at being called a denier. Previously, on various web sites or in TV programs I smiled and thought it to be something of an over-reaction. Not so when it's personally directed! I can't really speak for people now in their 20s or 30s, but as a child of the 50's it really sinks in.

We are of an age when we're almost bound to have a father, uncle, friend of the family who had some direct contact with the camps. When skepticism of a scientific theory is likened to a denial of the existence of those camps then it actually casts a shadow about all the rest of that person' views. The word denier appears no less than 12 times in the OP (the word Heartland 26!).

A bad strategic decision by pro-warmers – and environmentalists too it seems.

I was well on the way to deciding that I was posting in the wrong thread in any case. I must admit to becoming quite exasperated  :butt  by Bio's staunch defense of the 'hockey stick'. Her denial (oops) that the MWP and LIA had been reinstated to history had me searching and beginning to list URLs to a selection of 15-20 papers which showed, not only their existence, but that they were world-wide and not just NH. It then began to twig that this was really a waste of time. I fully own up to my own prejudice here – I do think the worst of scientists who refuse to publish and even hide their data. Thus Bio is entitled to a little defensive prejudice as well perhaps. Not a meeting of minds – but there you go.

The defense of  not sharing their date is another major, major strategic error by the warmist community.


Anyway, read the OP I did, and a good read it was. That's not sarcasm by the way, it was a good read.

At this point let me emphasize where my comments are coming from. I believe that human beings have had 3 hugely important inventions in their 140,000 (?) years or so history.

Language
Specialization and Trade
Agriculture

'Specialization and Trade' requiring a market to operate, and Capitalism as being, IMO, the most efficient mechanism to operate a market.

Quote
The deniers did not decide that climate change is a left-wing conspiracy by uncovering some covert socialist plot. They arrived at this analysis by taking a hard look at what it would take to lower global emissions as drastically and as rapidly as climate science demands. They have concluded that this can be done only by radically reordering our economic and political systems in ways antithetical to their “free market” belief system. As British blogger and Heartland regular James Delingpole has pointed out, “Modern environmentalism successfully advances many of the causes dear to the left: redistribution of wealth, higher taxes, greater government intervention, regulation.” Heartland’s Bast puts it even more bluntly: For the left, “Climate change is the perfect thing…. It’s the reason why we should do everything [the left] wanted to do anyway.”

Here’s my inconvenient truth: they aren’t wrong.

The crux of the matter. CAGW is the stick to bring about the change of society. Does it matter if it's true?


Quote
The fact that the earth’s atmosphere cannot safely absorb the amount of carbon we are pumping into it is a symptom of a much larger crisis, one born of the central fiction on which our economic model is based: that nature is limitless, that we will always be able to find more of what we need, and that if something runs out it can be seamlessly replaced by another resource that we can endlessly extract.

Linking the ability to absorb with the economic model has its down sides too. It's a big step to convince people that a doubling from 400 → 800 is Catastrophic when life on earth did very nicely thank-you at levels of 5000 → 8000.


Quote
The private sector is ill suited to providing most of these services because they require large up-front investments and, if they are to be genuinely accessible to all, some very well may not be profitable. They are, however, decidedly in the public interest, which is why they should come from the public sector.

Many examples of socialist mis-management of economies – inherent in socialism or not – make this a challenge!


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In addition to reversing the thirty-year privatization trend, a serious response to the climate threat involves recovering an art that has been relentlessly vilified during these decades of market fundamentalism: planning. Lots and lots of planning. And not just at the national and international levels.

Russian 5 year plans have condemned you to failure.

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A key piece of the planning we must undertake involves the rapid re-regulation of the corporate sector. Much can be done with incentives: subsidies for renewable energy and responsible land stewardship, for instance.

Thankfully it seems that subsidies of wind-farms are now well on their way to extinction. I really, really cannot see this reversing any time soon. The direction of public opinion seems to have changed – and that means votes.

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Only a very small sector of the population sees any restriction on corporate or consumer choice as leading down Hayek’s road to serfdom

Shouldn't Hayek's name have a 666 following it?  ;D

Quote
—and nowhere more so than in the realm of international trade. The devastating impacts of free trade on manufacturing, local business and farming are well known.

My view on 'Specialization and Trade' and it's impact on the lot of the ordinary man makes me feel that be one of the most misguided statements of all time. For you, I guess, it would amount to masochism, but a read of Matt Ridley's 'Rational Optimist' is worth the effort – even if only to know the enemy!

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All raise serious questions about the feasibility of industrialized countries meeting the deep emissions cuts demanded by science (at least 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050) while continuing to grow their economies at even today’s sluggish rate

A return to an existence so succinctly described in two words – Brutal and Short.

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So let’s summarize. Responding to climate change requires that we break every rule in the free-market playbook and that we do so with great urgency. We will need to rebuild the public sphere, reverse privatizations, relocalize large parts of economies, scale back overconsumption, bring back long-term planning, heavily regulate and tax corporations, maybe even nationalize some of them, cut military spending and recognize our debts to the global South.

A good summary of all the things which are not going to happen. For good or ill it's doomed to failure. Copenhagen was the tipping point (sorry I couldn't resist) and it's all downhill from here – or on to the sunlit upland pastures depending on your point of view.

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And scientists who present at Heartland climate conferences are almost all so steeped in fossil fuel dollars that you can practically smell the fumes.

At least I know your views on Heartland now. Prior to this I thought they were a group of rather cookie Republicans. 

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In The Shock Doctrine, I explore how the right has systematically used crises—real and trumped up—to push through a brutal ideological agenda designed not to solve the problems that created the crises but rather to enrich elites.

CAGW?

Quote
It is a painful irony that while the Heartlanders are busily calling climate change a left-wing plot, most leftists have yet to realize that climate science has handed them the most powerful argument against capitalism since William Blake’s “dark Satanic Mills” (and, of course, those mills were the beginning of climate change).

We return at the end to the crux of the matter

I'll leave you to your thread in the firm, and contented, conviction that we won't be seeing your Utopia here any time soon.

 :wave
Don't let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »
:wave

It isn't the 'is AGW real or not' thread to be fair. That you side with both heartland, the fossil fuel industries and align more closely with their views is your choice. That you have consistently shown that you have nothing to support this, is sad for arguments sake - it would be nice if the discussion wasn't so one sided. When asked for evidence and links you have bluffed and evaded. And now, you have decided to go home in a huff?  ???

I'm not (as previously stated) focused solely on climate change - I think it is one of many problems related to industrial pollution. I believe that our current economic structures, quality of life and consumer economy is a bubble. It is supported by the EROEI of fossil fuels. And they are running out. And heartland, Cato, all the other industry shills, are fighting, not with facts, evidence and proof, but with emotional arguments more akin to focus-grouped political soundbites. And their approach is winning - get to the emotional, reptile brain and bypass rationale and critical thinking. Marketers and advertisers have been working their magic for years and it works like a charm. (it certainly has you in their thrall - and you're an intelligent and educated man).

You see, I would be better convinced of their side if it wasn't compromised so thoroughly with oil/coal/Koch dollars. If there was some independent, peer reviewed scientific studies out there then I would pay attention. But when the best that can be mustered is some waffle about the curve of a hockey stick or the fudging on an email then I begin to wonder if that is all there really is to counter all of the scientific and peer reviewed and wholly independent research evidencing AGW.

Thanks for your time anyway - all the best  :wave
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2012, 08:34:20 AM »
http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/from-milk-to-peas-a-chinese-food-safety-mess/?src=recg

From Milk to Peas, a Chinese Food-Safety Mess

HONG KONG — There’s mercury in the baby formula. Cabbages are sprayed with formaldehyde. Gelatin capsules for pills, tens of millions of them, are laced with chromium. Used cooking oil is scooped out of gutters for recycling, right along with the sewage.

Accounts of dubious or unsafe food in China are as mesmerizing as they are disturbing — “artificial green peas,” grilled kebabs made from cat meat, contaminated chives, chlorine showing up in soft drinks.

There have been stories of imitation soy sauce made from hair clippings, ink and paraffin being used to dress up cheap noodles, and pork buns so loaded with bacteria that they glow in the dark.

A new investigation by the Chinese magazine Caixin has found that “these publicized food safety scandals represent only a fraction of unsafe food production practices. Hundreds of chemical food additives are pumped into products that Chinese people consume every day.”

The official Chinese news agency Xinhua reported Wednesday that Chinese authorities have discovered 15,000 cases of substandard food so far this year while shutting down 5,700 unlicensed food businesses.

Things are so bad that a new iPhone app was recently launched to track food scandals nationwide. The app, which sends out daily updates on the latest outrages, was reportedly downloaded more than 200,000 times in the first week.

In 2008, infant formula and other milk products were found to be contaminated with melamine, an industrial chemical used to make fertilizer and plastic pipe. Six children died and some 300,000 fell sick.

The melamine scandal caused a nationwide panic among parents of young children, and there was a worldwide recall of Chinese products ranging from biscuits to baby formula. Two Chinese milk producers were executed for selling more than 3 million pounds of contaminated milk powder.

There were unsettling echoes of that scandal last week when China’s largest dairy, Inner Mongolia Yili Industrial Group, found elevated levels of mercury in its infant formula and was forced to recall six months’ worth of production. Yili was one of the dairies involved in the 2008 scandal.

Milk and dairy safety has become such a sensitive topic in China that some Internet searches about the scandal were reportedly blocked by government censors.

Another major milk producer, China Mengniu Dairy, had to destroy large batches of milk in December when government spot checks turned up evidence of aflatoxin, a cancer-causing fungus. Within a day of the news, my colleague Edward Wong reported, people on the Internet “had posted or copied posts on the bad milk nearly four million times.”

The string of food-safety scandals, especially in the dairy sector, has led to falling share prices — and significant buying opportunities for foreign investors, according to a Reuters report published in the International Herald Tribune. The Danish-Swedish dairy group Arla, for example, said last week that it plans to buy a 6 percent stake in Mengniu.

China is already the world’s largest formula market, Reuters reported, noting that the country is “expected to overtake the United States as the largest dairy market by 2020.” That timeline could be hastened by a possible relaxation of China’s so-called one-child policy in 2015.

From the Reuters report:

    “To be a minority shareholder in a food company in China, regardless of the quality of your partner, you’re still exposed to the supply chain,” said David Mahon, a dairy consultant and head of Mahon China Investment Management, referring to the Arla-Mengniu deal. “The lesson from melamine would not have been learned, and that would be a pity.”

    The private equity firms Hopu, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and Carlyle Group all took stakes in Chinese dairy companies in 2008 and 2009.

    Hopu is winding down its fund and got out as soon as it could, but K.K.R. and Carlyle have invested in technology and production systems to bring Western-style milk production to Chinese dairies, including imported cows.

“China woke up to its food safety problems with the entrance of multinational companies,” the Caixin report says. “Fast-food giants McDonald’s and KFC were among the first violators caught by media in 2005, when ‘tony red,’ a toxic chemical was found in fried chicken.”

Wal-Mart is another company that has recently had its share of food-quality problems in China.

“A scandal over mislabeled pork led to the closure of stores and the resignation of the country head,” the BBC reported, and the Food Safety Administration in Beijing said in March that a Wal-Mart store in the capital had “sold sesame oil and squid with dangerous amounts of cancer-causing chemicals.”

In April, the police in China arrested nine people, shut down 80 production lines and seized more than 77 million pill capsules contaminated with chromium.

In March, “artificial green peas” were discovered in Hunan Province. Shriveled peas were being reconstituted by soaking them in food coloring and bleach-like chemical additives.

“The peas were an unnatural color and had a penetrating odor,” said a local newspaper report cited by China Daily. “After 20 minutes of cooking, the peas did not turn soft but the water turned green.”

In 2010, the government issued health alerts about recycled cooking oil. It seems used oil was being scooped from gutters outside hot-pot restaurants and then reprocessed — right along with bits of sewage. My colleague David Barboza reported from Shanghai that investigators began hunting down illegal oil-recycling factories and naming found to be using the iffy oil.

China recently issued a new five-year food-safety plan that intends to simplify a welter of overlapping and contradictory regulations. The plan acknowledges that China is “still suffering from the absence of several major food safety regulations.”

Meanwhile, as the Caixin report concludes, “Regulatory standards have not been able to keep up with the ingenuity of food manufacturers.”
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2012, 08:34:38 AM »
http://www.weareaustin.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_2393.shtml

Mysterious Mass Cattle Deaths May Be Caused By Random Grass Mutation

A mysterious mass death of a herd of cattle has prompted a federal investigation in Central Texas.

Preliminary test results are blaming the deaths on the grass the cows were eating when they got sick.

The cows dropped dead several weeks ago on a ranch in Elgin, just east of Austin.

Jerry Abel opens the gate on his 80-acre ranch in Elgin, walking on a field of grass he's been using for cattle grazing and hay for 15 years.

"This is it, a lot of leaf, it's good, grass, tested high for protein - it should have been perfect," said Abel.

The grass is a genetically modified form of Bermuda known as Tifton 85 which has been growing here for 15 years, feeding Abel's 18 head of Corriente cattle.  Corriente are used for team roping because of their small size and horns.

"When we opened that gate to that fresh grass, they were all very anxious to get to that," said Abel.

Three weeks ago, the cattle had just been turned out to enjoy the fresh grass, when something went terribly wrong.

"When our trainer first heard the bellowing, he thought our pregnant heifer may be having a calf or something," said Abel.  "But when he got down here, virtually all of the steers and heifers were on the ground.  Some were already dead, and the others were already in convulsions."

Within hours, 15 of the 18 cattle were dead.

"That was very traumatic to see, because there was nothing you could do, obviously, they were dying," said Abel.

Dr. Gary Warner, an Elgin veterinarian who specializes in cattle, conducted the 15 necropsy.  Preliminary tests revealed the Tifton 85 grass, which has been here for years, had suddenly started producing cyanide gas, poisoning the cattle.

"Coming off the drought that we had the last two years, we're concerned it was a combination of events that led us to this," said Warner.  "The problem is, we don't know, and there needs to be some caution exercised until we know more about the situation."

Until scientists can determine why this tried and true grass suddenly began producing cyanide, Abel is keep his livestock far away.

"The grasshoppers are enjoying it now," said Abel.

What is even more worrisome - other farmers have tested their Tifton 85 grass, and several in Bastrop County have found their fields are also toxic with cyanide, although no other cattle have died.

Scientists at the U.S. Department of Agriculture are dissecting the grass to determine if there might have been some strange, unexpected mutation.
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2012, 08:39:22 AM »
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2012, 08:40:14 AM »
http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/tunisia-wind-power-saphon.php?ref=fpblg

From Tunisia, The Future Of Wind Power?

An unlikely Tunisian startup is hoping to bring wind power into the 21st century by employing technology first developed thousands of years ago.

Saphon Energy was founded in 2009 by a Tunisian banker, Hassine Labaied, and his inventor friend of two decades, Anis Aouin. The duo teamed up to create an entirely novel and yet instantly recognizable new type of wind energy harvester that relies on no blades, or moving parts, whatsoever.

Instead, Saphon’s “Zero Blade” technology uses a stationary circular sail, approximately 4 feet in diameter, attached to the top of a pole. As the wind moves the sail back and forth, a hydraulic system captures the kinetic energy and converts it into mechanical energy. The system can also store the mechanical energy as hydraulic pressure, to be deployed later, when there is no wind.

“The sail boat is still the best system for capturing and creating energy from the wind, and it does so without blades,” Labaied told TPM in a telephone interview.

The system is designed to exceed the currently theoretical and physical maximum of wind turbine efficiency, the Betz law, which finds that the top efficiency attainable by a wind turbine is 59.3 percent.

Saphon believes its technology exceeds that limit and provides the added benefit of being cheaper and less noisy than common wind turbines, as well as less dangerous to birds, who can get trapped in the blades of other wind turbines. Check out Saphon’s promotional video on its technology:

So far, Saphon has constructed two working prototypes of its first generation “Saphonian” device from scratch in Tunisia which have attained two to three times the efficiency of a common “three blade” wind turbine, Labaied told TPM.

“People around the globe got so obsessed with improving the three blade technology, but that was like a box to us,” Labaied said. “We said, ‘why don’t we try to think outside the box,
and for us that meant non-rotational and no blades.”

The company is currently working on its second-generation product and a third prototype, according to Labaied.

“Even though we already have this technology we’re working further to optimize the design,” Labaied explained.

But already, Saphon has attracted international attention, with Labaied being invited to speak at the last minute at the TED Global 2012 conference in Edinburgh, Scotland on June 28.

Whether his technology takes off quite as quickly as his company’s ambitions remains to be seen.
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Offline Fruity

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2012, 09:23:12 AM »
An uncle of mine who is american told me many years ago that the development of hydrogen cars was halted many years ago by the oil barons. Apparently a good working model has been around since the 70's but everything has been done by the politicians/senators to stop its progress. My uncle is not an engineer but is hired to work with companies (and still does) on strategy and streamlining businesses.

Anyway he feels america could have done away with the petrol/diesel car over 20 years ago but too many people in high places did not want it and still dont. I presume this is not new news and I don't have anything to back it up but I have no reason not to believe him.

My big issue with Capitalism is that man (or woman) is by nature greedy and selfish. We will do our best to look after no.1 and fuck everyone else. It doesn't matter if the maldives disappear under water in 20 years, as long as we get our bluefin tuna who gives a fuck. We will turn a blind eye to invading countries as long as we dont have to queue too long and pay too much at a petrol pump. Life is survival of the fittest and fuck everyone else who can't keep up. Capitalism promotes our inner greed and selfishness and whilst we maintain that outlook we will continue to bugger things up, economically, enviromentally and socially.

alf a pound of braeburns!

Offline kopitecrash

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2012, 04:16:52 PM »
An uncle of mine who is american told me many years ago that the development of hydrogen cars was halted many years ago by the oil barons. Apparently a good working model has been around since the 70's but everything has been done by the politicians/senators to stop its progress. My uncle is not an engineer but is hired to work with companies (and still does) on strategy and streamlining businesses.

Anyway he feels america could have done away with the petrol/diesel car over 20 years ago but too many people in high places did not want it and still dont. I presume this is not new news and I don't have anything to back it up but I have no reason not to believe him.

My big issue with Capitalism is that man (or woman) is by nature greedy and selfish. We will do our best to look after no.1 and fuck everyone else. It doesn't matter if the maldives disappear under water in 20 years, as long as we get our bluefin tuna who gives a fuck. We will turn a blind eye to invading countries as long as we dont have to queue too long and pay too much at a petrol pump. Life is survival of the fittest and fuck everyone else who can't keep up. Capitalism promotes our inner greed and selfishness and whilst we maintain that outlook we will continue to bugger things up, economically, enviromentally and socially.

Probably true. I read on cracked the other day that America used to have lots of cheap electric tram transport - but that didn't make money for oil barons so they bought these companies and destroyed them for profit. And my dad has said the same thing as you.
I know what you mean. I really wish the Madrid born former Real Vallodolid, Osasuna, Tenerife, Extremadura, Valencia and Inter Milan manager stayed loyal and faithful to a foreign club that sacked him by never managing another club again. Burn him.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2012, 06:48:26 PM »
Probably true. I read on cracked the other day that America used to have lots of cheap electric tram transport - but that didn't make money for oil barons so they bought these companies and destroyed them for profit. And my dad has said the same thing as you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

Quote
Conviction, $1 fine

In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, GM and Mack Trucks were convicted of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by NCL and other companies; they were acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies. The verdicts were upheld on appeal in 1951.[n 9] Bradford Snell summed up the controversial verdict, as the punishment so poorly matched the crime:

    "The court imposed a sanction of $5,000 on GM. In addition, the jury convicted H.C. Grossman, who was then treasurer of GM. Grossman had played a key role in the motorization campaigns and had served as a director of Pacific City Lines when that company undertook the dismantlement of the $100 million Pacific Electric system. The court fined Grossman the magnanimous sum of $1."[n 10]

According to Snell, GM's own testimony had shown that by the mid-1950s, GM and its agents had canvassed more than 1,000 electric railways and had motorized 90%—more than 900 systems.[n 11] The struggling Pacific Electric Railway was purchased by Metropolitan Coach Lines in 1953.

Jesse Haugh, who operated Metropolitan Coach Lines and was a former executive of PCL, had previously purchased San Diego Electric Railway though a separate company in 1948. The remaining streetcars were converted to buses by 1950. The remains of the Pacific Electric Railway and of the Los Angeles Railway were taken into public ownership in 1958; all routes were converted to bus routes. Though Federal anti-trust action was taken against NCL, the damage was already done: Los Angeles was dominated by automobiles.[12] Haugh sold the bus-based San Diego system to the city in 1966.[13]

They are now trying and struggling to build a streetlevel, light rail network throughout West LA. Is a shortsighted clusterfuck.

My big issue with Capitalism is that man (or woman) is by nature greedy and selfish. We will do our best to look after no.1 and fuck everyone else. It doesn't matter if the maldives disappear under water in 20 years, as long as we get our bluefin tuna who gives a fuck. We will turn a blind eye to invading countries as long as we dont have to queue too long and pay too much at a petrol pump. Life is survival of the fittest and fuck everyone else who can't keep up. Capitalism promotes our inner greed and selfishness and whilst we maintain that outlook we will continue to bugger things up, economically, enviromentally and socially.

Just to refer to this, I don't think is strictly true. This, from an article I posted above reflects a closer idea that reflects my personal experience.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/joris-luyendijk-banking-blog/2012/jun/18/executive-coach-finance-amoral-world

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    Comment is free
"In youth psychology there's a well-known phenomenon regarding collective self-harming. You have a shelter that's housing, say, 50 boys. All of a sudden and apparently out of nowhere, they all start mutilating themselves. A wave. It's only natural for outsiders to assume that something must be very wrong with that shelter. However, research and experience demonstrate that all you need to do is find the one person who started it. Isolate him from the group and lo and behold, the wave stops and everything goes back to normal.

"Individuals have very powerful influence over groups, and it makes you wonder about banks and financial firms; what if they were like the shelter, and you need to find that one switch, that one person, to turn a whole group around?

"I am an optimist, humans are good animals, we have a tendency to get distracted and be led astray. As for this financial crisis, well, it's only a crisis. That's right, psychologists consider a crisis as simply one point in a cycle of growth; it's when the patient is about to make a breakthrough, and evolve.
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

Online Conocinico

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Re: Capitalism vs. the Climate: Naomi Klein
« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2012, 06:01:35 AM »
Climate change denial is economics driven - it is encapsulated by a political demographic who perceive the conclusions to be unsavory.

Yep, I was thinking this just the other day. For instance, it's not a surprise that you very rarely meet a libertarian who supports the idea of AGW since very few libertarian models incorporate externalities.  They have to deny climate change otherwise their demented religion will head the same way as Ron Paul's presidential hopes.

My big issue with Capitalism is that man (or woman) is by nature greedy and selfish.

Who told you that?