Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[Abrak]

"Don't touch me you South American" - How stilted is that? And, again, if it was after the Head Rub then surely Marriner heard this...

Like I said, it doesn't ring true

On this I would plead that it might not be literal. It is quite possible what he actually said was 'get off my back you deigo c*nt'. The conversation between players not being incredibly intellectual.

I dont think it goes like this....

'Get out the way you South American cow'
'Why should I you french garlic breath'
'Oooh has anyone told you that your ears look like Bart Simpson'
'Dont bite your fingers when you eat a Mars bar'

But it isnt far off....

[Brentie]

IF the ALLEGED evidence of evra mouthing off to the ref is true then that could swing the case in Suarez's favour... but surely it would have come up before now and it seems a bit ott, but if there is video evidence then we shall see, could mean Evra gets a ban.

i do find it interesting that from the 10 offences that Evra ALLEGED happened only 1 is being discussed...

Personally i cannot see where Evra's team would get enough evidence for a guilty conviction

If Winter's article is correct, than Evra has to prove nothing, Luis would admit he said negro once and it's left to the FA to decided about the semantics of the case.

[Greyfox]

When was Evra booked in the match for the foul on Kuyt??....there will be footage of him ranting even on the official video on LFC.tv and it would be easy to lipread what he said, wouldn't it??

[Brentie]

You know what.

If Luis gets a ban, there are postivies out of this.

He can get a rest he may very well need. And this will lead to Andy Carroll getting a run in the side to prove himself. If, by the time Luis returns, Carroll continues to look as ponderous and limited as he has so far then surely we'll be looking to sing a striker in January. If Carroll, on the contrary, steps up to the plate then we'll have him firing on all cylinders and a freshened up Suarez going into the new year.

[Greyfox]

If Winter's article is correct, than Evra has to prove nothing, Luis would admit he said negro once and it's left to the FA to decided about the semantics of the case.

NO, Evra has to prove racism. This is not implied by the mere use of the word negro...

"the black guy over there" Google translates (English - Spanish) as "el negro de allá"......Google racist now then??

[kelevra]

NO, Evra has to prove racism. This is not implied by the mere use of the word negro...

"the black guy over there" Google translates as "el negro de allá"......Google racist now then??

The argument against that is why use the word 'black' in the first place?

[doc_antonio]

The argument against that is why use the word 'black' in the first place?

umm... because he is, isn't he? 

[Trumps]

The argument against that is why use the word 'black' in the first place?

If it was used only once I can understand it being a slip. If negro was used more than once, as alleged, Suarez will definitely be found guilty. I'm not even comfortable with it being used once, whatever the context.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

The argument against that is why use the word 'black' in the first place?

Nothing racist about calling someone "black".

[kelevra]

umm... because he is, isn't he? 

True but the FA may ask why say it in the first place? I'm in agreement with you, I don't think anything is wrong with it but you just know the FA are going to look for any way to ban Suarez and to be seen as 'kicking racism out of football.'

[Brentie]

NO, Evra has to prove racism. This is not implied by the mere use of the word negro...

"the black guy over there" Google translates (English - Spanish) as "el negro de allá"......Google racist now then??

I agree in general terms, but this is England, the most PC country in the world, and this is the FA, the most bandwagon driven iinstituion in the world.

[kelevra]

I agree in general terms, but this is England, the most PC country in the world, and this is the FA, the most bandwagon driven iinstituion in the world.

Exactly

[rob1408]

The argument against that is why use the word 'black' in the first place?

That's the crux of the matter.  The word is allegedly used as a description in South America, which will be the clubs defence judging by that article.  Evra has said similar by calling Suarez 'That South-American', Evra may of had a case to answer if Suarez complained to the referee.

[GBF]

You know what.

If Luis gets a ban, there are postivies out of this.

if he gets a ban, it means he is found guilty and guilty aint a good thing for the club

[etherealgrace]

If it was used only once I can understand it being a slip. If negro was used more than once, as alleged, Suarez will definitely be found guilty. I'm not even comfortable with it being used once, whatever the context.

Why are you not comfortable with that word being used ever? Have you never called someone black, as in "the black guy over there" because that is all negro (pronounced neh- gro) means in spanish it doesn't carry the offensive connotations as negro (pronounced nee-grow) does in english.

[Greyfox]

Why use the term??...it's descriptive that's why...as is blonde, ginger, asian, chinese, ...and it is not a derogatory term in itself.....it is the context it is used in.

As merely an illustration.....

Scouse     (Neutral context)                   Scouse Bast**d
Geordie                                                  Geordie Tw*t
Asian                                                      Asian Ar*e
Chinese                                                  Chinses Cu*t
Aboriginal                                                Aboriginal Tw*t
Black                                                        Black Bast**d  (Aggressive context)


 

[doc_antonio]

I agree in general terms, but this is England, the most PC country in the world, and this is the FA, the most bandwagon driven iinstituion in the world.

but you would think the FA would come to the conclusion "ok, he's from a completely different country, if it was in his country or holland where he played it would be ok and forgotten about.. a slap on the wrists and told not to do it again would be suffice" but no the FA are ballbags and "want to make an example" out of a guy who hasn't even been in England a year.  i still dont understand how calling someone 'black' is racist though.. if someone called me 'white' i wouldn't even think that they were trying to be racist..

[Brentie]

if he gets a ban, it means he is found guilty and guilty aint a good thing for the club

Thought it was obvious from my post that I was talking about on pitch issues.

[stevied]

Radio 5 said this morning the hearing will be completed today, maybe they will take a while to sum all the evidence up and make a decision but we could hear something later today

[tubby]

Why are you not comfortable with that word being used ever? Have you never called someone black, as in "the black guy over there" because that is all negro (pronounced neh- gro) means in spanish it doesn't carry the offensive connotations as negro (pronounced nee-grow) does in english.

Saying "the black guy over there" isn't really the same as talking to someone and calling them black.

[Il Conte]

Swedish equivalent of the s*n claims Suarez used the word n***er, and that Kenny is defending the use of this word. Should/could the club take any action against these kind of false accusations?

[etherealgrace]

Saying "the black guy over there" isn't really the same as talking to someone and calling them black.

I agree but the person I quoted seemed to have an issue with the use of the spanish word negro at all.

[Brentie]

but you would think the FA would come to the conclusion "ok, he's from a completely different country, if it was in his country or holland where he played it would be ok and forgotten about.. a slap on the wrists and told not to do it again would be suffice" but no the FA are ballbags and "want to make an example" out of a guy who hasn't even been in England a year.  i still dont understand how calling someone 'black' is racist though.. if someone called me 'white' i wouldn't even think that they were trying to be racist..

I've already argued about this on another thread which has nothing to do with Suarez and Im in agreement with you.

I'm Lebanese, Christian and overweight. Im very proud of the fact Im Lebanese but not so much that Im overweight. Id rather be called you Lebanese bastard than you fat bastard. But I could take a player to the FA if they call me you arab/Lebanese bastard but Id get very little time out of them if they call me you fat bastard.

But again, this is England and I have very little faith in the FA to think in nuances.

[rossipersiempre]

Nothing racist about calling someone "black".

"Wot? Even if you add on the word "caahnnt" afterwards?"

[momomo]

Regarding Evra's alleged words to Marriner and Luis it doesn't ring true to me

"Is it because I am black" Questioning the Referee's integrity and racially aggravated. If he hasn't sent him off on the spot (and Marriner would need to explain why he didn't) then surely he should have included this in his report - and if he was on record of saying this then surely the FA would not have touched this with a bargepole.

"Don't touch me you South American" - How stilted is that? And, again, if it was after the Head Rub then surely Marriner heard this...

Like I said, it doesn't ring true

Is accusing the referee of racial prejudice a sending off offence? Continuing your form of playing devil's advocate, Evra would contest that he is merely asking the referee a question. Of course, it would be wrong to take Evra's previous accusations into account when considering his integrity in (allegedly) asking this question. It is a very tricky subject matter and considering the general spineless nature of the referees and The FA it is not at all surprising if it was not included in the ref's report or was included and The FA chose not to pursue.

On the other hand, the referee may have simply retorted, "No, it's because you're acting like a knob" and considered the matter dealt with at the time.

[rossipersiempre]

Why are you not comfortable with that word being used ever? Have you never called someone black, as in "the black guy over there" because that is all negro (pronounced neh- gro) means in spanish it doesn't carry the offensive connotations as negro (pronounced nee-grow) does in english.

Spot on. Sadly some people prefer to see racism everywhere regardless of intent. Patrice Evra for one.

[Greyfox]

This is extracted from the Department of Health in the UK


36. The 16 codes, presented under the five headings, plus instructions for completion taken from the 2001 ONS Census, are as follows :

Ethnic group - 16+1 codes

What is your ethnic group? Choose ONE section from A to E, then tick the appropriate box to indicate your ethnic group.

A : White

British
Irish
Any other White background (please write in)
B : Mixed

White and Black Caribbean
White and Black African
White and Asian
Any other mixed background (please write in)
C : Asian or Asian British

Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Any other Asian background (please write in)
D : Black or Black British

Caribbean
African
Any other Black background (please write in)
E : Chinese or other ethnic group

Chinese
Any other (please write in)
Not stated

Not stated

The term "black" is used all the time...even in official documents as above...why this "fear" of using the word as some kind of taboo?? ...it's all about the context....

[Moley]

is 'negro' offensive in Holland?

No - I was in Florida a few years ago having dinner with a Dutch chap.

I was shocked when he referred to Shaq O Neill quite loudly as "the basketball player - the giant Nigger".

However he was oblivious to the fact the word he was using would be offensive.

[Pheeny]

No - I was in Florida a few years ago having dinner with a Dutch chap.

I was shocked when he referred to Shaq O Neill quite loudly as "the basketball player - the giant Nigger".

However he was oblivious to the fact the word he was using would be offensive.

No - I was in Florida a few years ago having dinner with a Dutch chap.

I was shocked when he referred to Shaq O Neill quite loudly as "the basketball player - the giant Nigger".

However he was oblivious to the fact the word he was using would be offensive.

much the same here in Belgium.Often here it in work at first I was shocked but soon came to realize it was not being used in a racist way.

[LondonRedMan]

Swedish equivalent of the s*n claims Suarez used the word n***er, and that Kenny is defending the use of this word. Should/could the club take any action against these kind of false accusations?

that's a disgrace!!!

Send the article to LFC.

[subroc]

Is accusing the referee of racial prejudice a sending off offence? Continuing your form of playing devil's advocate, Evra would contest that he is merely asking the referee a question. Of course, it would be wrong to take Evra's previous accusations into account when considering his integrity in (allegedly) asking this question. It is a very tricky subject matter and considering the general spineless nature of the referees and The FA it is not at all surprising if it was not included in the ref's report or was included and The FA chose not to pursue.

On the other hand, the referee may have simply retorted, "No, it's because you're acting like a knob" and considered the matter dealt with at the time.

There may be a case to answer that Evra is abnormally sensitive about the colour of his skin and trying to use PC sensitivity as a weapon against others.

If what Winter says is true, then it seems that there was no suggestion of any racist words used before they went before the referee but Evra was still incensed with his accusation of being kicked by Suarez. Suarez was trying to smooth things over and tried to touch his head but Evra used a nationality descriptor at Suarez "South American" which caused Suarez to respond by calling him "negro".  It looks more like Evra himself was out of control.

[Twiggthemanc]

A few weeks ago, everyone was posting stuff like "there's no video evidence, surely SKY would have something".

Now you all seem to be gladly accepting some story from a journalist, when there's no proof about anything.

Too many people on both sides are only listening to what they want to hear.

[subroc]

You know what.

If Luis gets a ban, there are postivies out of this.

He can get a rest he may very well need. And this will lead to Andy Carroll getting a run in the side to prove himself. If, by the time Luis returns, Carroll continues to look as ponderous and limited as he has so far then surely we'll be looking to sing a striker in January. If Carroll, on the contrary, steps up to the plate then we'll have him firing on all cylinders and a freshened up Suarez going into the new year.

I do not see how there can be any positives about losing Suarez for the rest of the month. If carroll is deployed and he continues to fire blanks and to look ponderous, our inventiveness will go down an order of magnitude with even worse effects on goals scored and number of matches won, and worse, we will have no alternative to Suarez. I fwe use Kuyt instead of Carroll, he will not be as effective without Suarez to scare the other side's defenders. By the time January comes round, we may have lost all chances to get into the top 4...

[subroc]

A few weeks ago, everyone was posting stuff like "there's no video evidence, surely SKY would have something".

Now you all seem to be gladly accepting some story from a journalist, when there's no proof about anything.

Too many people on both sides are only listening to what they want to hear.

We are just talking about what has been disclosed today. We know so ltitle that it is all we have to go on. We will know much more once the proceedings have ended.

[adwhite40]

too many 'allegations' for me to really have an opinion on this. I hope he isnt guilty but I guess time will tell.

[BMW]

I hope he isnt guilty but I guess time will tell.

[SpartanRed]

My Romanian girlfriend was looking out of my window a couple of months ago. "Oh look at that nigger!" she said, totally matter-of-factly.

After I stopped laughing I explained to her the sensitive nature of that, and similar, words and she said:

"But he is a nigger."

You need to make sure she never ventures into somewhere like Brixton then !     

[keyo]

This is all getting a little incremental.

First Luis said nothing and Evra must have made it up "because he has done that before".

Then Luis might have said a slightly different word but that's just Man Utd and the FA trying to back out of the situation. It would be scandalous if Luis was "warned as to his future conduct" as that would label him a racist when he is totally innocent.

Then Luis might indeed have said "negrito" but it doesn't mean anything and Gus Poyet says it's used every second word in Uruguay.

Now Luis might have said "negro" once but again it's not racist in the context he said it.

What's next? Christmas Parties with Aidan Burley and Prince Harry?

There's a lot the club could have done to nip this in the bud had they come out in the beginning and said they had explained the sensitivities of the language he used and apologised, yes, apologised to Evra. Unfortunately, the club's attitude to this whole affair seems to have been influenced by the fact that it was Man Utd and Patrice Evra which is, in itself, a case of pre-judice. They are also going to have to explain, both to the FA Tribunal and the Court of Public Opinion

do you think that the response was driven by the fact that the allegation was made in the press before they even learned about it?  evra made the allegation to a french tv journalist before the allegation was presented to suarez or lfc.....so from the outset the whole thing has had an adversarial element about it....add in ferguson's accusations levelled at suarez at the same time and all of a sudden you have an agenda driven smear campaign running.....and having seen the treatment of suarez by the referee's since the united game, i would say that agenda has had a direct impact

[SpartanRed]

This is extracted from the Department of Health in the UK

36. The 16 codes, presented under the five headings, plus instructions for completion taken from the 2001 ONS Census, are as follows :

Ethnic group - 16+1 codes

What is your ethnic group? Choose ONE section from A to E, then tick the appropriate box to indicate your ethnic group.

A : White

British
Irish
Any other White background (please write in)
B : Mixed

White and Black Caribbean
White and Black African
White and Asian
Any other mixed background (please write in)
C : Asian or Asian British

Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Any other Asian background (please write in)
D : Black or Black British

Caribbean
African
Any other Black background (please write in)
E : Chinese or other ethnic group

Chinese
Any other (please write in)
Not stated

Not stated

The term "black" is used all the time...even in official documents as above...why this "fear" of using the word as some kind of taboo?? ...it's all about the context....

Spot on.
A few of my pals are Black and they're happy to be be described as such whereas they WOULD be offended if you described them as coloured.  In the same way I know people who are mixed race but would be offended if you described them as 'half-caste'.

If however, you called any of them a 'black (insert expletive)' - the type of expression usually used in an aggressive tone - then it puts a different perspective on it and they will take exception.

[FlashingBlade]

Actually its not a ban for Suaraz that bothers me ( btw I dont think there's a case to answer) it will be the never ending attack by the media ( and bandwagon jumpers not to mention other fans!) on LFC and him,  culminating in a push for us to sell him. The media would love a guilty verdict for all the mileage it would give them and rack up the Public Enemy No.1 status of Suarez.

If it wasnt for the love of LFC and the game belonging to us, Id jib it! its become a hysterical, hypocritical ,money driven corporate and media circus.