Topic: Andy Carroll, Prime Target by Paul Tomkins

[Black Bull Nova]

I haven't seen what others appear to have seen over the last couple of games. He's been less crap is the best i can say for him. But it is an improvement - so lets hope it continues - and his believers can shove it down the throats of the likes of me.

Watch more closely, trust me

[Sinead7]

I haven't seen what others appear to have seen over the last couple of games. He's been less crap is the best i can say for him. But it is an improvement - so lets hope it continues - and his believers can shove it down the throats of the likes of me.

Just because he isn't a silky smooth footballer like Gerrard or Suarez people don't rate him. That has never been part of his arsenal, he is renowned as a big workhouse, a big lump of a full forward who will win everything in the air and scare the shite out of full backs which is exactly what he has been doing in the last 2 games. Don't let the presentation fool you, Andy along with Bellamy has been our best players in the last 2/3 games.

[Barry Banana]

Just because he isn't a silky smooth footballer like Gerrard or Suarez people don't rate him. That has never been part of his arsenal, he is renowned as a big workhouse, a big lump of a full forward who will win everything in the air and scare the shite out of full backs which is exactly what he has been doing in the last 2 games. Don't let the presentation fool you, Andy along with Bellamy has been our best players in the last 2/3 games.

I disagree. He hasn't bullied anyone. Or scared the shite out of anyone. He still gets knocked on his arse more often than not. And he could work harder.

He has, in spells, shown that he might have it in him to do those things. But he has not been brilliant.

For me, there is a glimmer of hope, which wasn't there prior to the last 2 games. But nothing deserving of the current wank fest.

[geoffstrong]

I disagree. He hasn't bullied anyone. Or scared the shite out of anyone. He still gets knocked on his arse more often than not. And he could work harder.

He has, in spells, shown that he might have it in him to do those things. But he has not been brilliant.

For me, there is a glimmer of hope, which wasn't there prior to the last 2 games. But nothing deserving of the current wank fest.

jeez you are some kind of blinkered fan if a fan at all!

he has done nothing to deserve some of the vicious shite posted about him by wannabee pillocks either,  including a bloody investigation into 6 minutes into an away game we won at Chelsea!

Sorry you dont like the fact he is playing well but the rest of us appreciate a guy contributing to a win for this club as does Kenny!

[Barry Banana]

jeez you are some kind of blinkered fan if a fan at all!

he has done nothing to deserve some of the vicious shite posted about him by wannabee pillocks either,  including a bloody investigation into 6 minutes into an away game we won at Chelsea!

Sorry you dont like the fact he is playing well but the rest of us appreciate a guy contributing to a win for this club as does Kenny!

I'd love him to play well. But I don't agree that he is. A few good bits in 180 mins. He's shown promise.

"The famous number 9 shirt looks at home on his broad shoulders" was reported in the echo. Not yet it doesn't. His recent performances where no where near previous number nines (rush, fowler, Torres).

People may have been overly critical at times. But people are going overboard about a couple of average games.

Even his biggest believers can't believe the last two games were the best he has to offer. If it was, it's not enough. If it wasn't, stop going on like it was. Just say its encouraging, like I have.

[liverpooll]

I am not sure what has changed but it is still the same problems for me.

First, I did not watch the last game, however against Man United, he failed to win during the 1 on 1 challenges with the defenders. For instance, I remember there was a great cross for me and yet he could not defeat only defender near him whom was Evans in heading the ball. Similarly, against Bolton, Ngog looked more impressive as he definitely was holding the ball better.

Until he can get the better of the defender in the 1 on 1 situation, he will always be struggling. He depends very much on the perfect setup which is all about the other teammates doing the productive work and leaving him with tap ins.

[Sharado]

First, I did not watch the last game,

Er, then maybe you have no idea what everyone else is talking about then, you massive balloon?

[liverpooll]

Er, then maybe you have no idea what everyone else is talking about then, you massive balloon?

you do not become brilliant by scoring a goal in 1 game.

[Zlenpasha]

you do not become brilliant by scoring a goal in 1 game.

The goal he scored was the least of his achievements in the last game.
Now carry on.

[LiamG]

you do not become brilliant by scoring a goal in 1 game.

Who said he has become brilliant? He's had 2 solid good performances and he's starting to show signs of the "Brilliant" player he can become, Really hope he keeps this up now and goes on a good run, Confidence will grow in him game by game

The fact you didnt watch the game says it all of your opinion

[Camarero25]

Don't think we should go overboard on two (very good) performances, just as we shouldn't go overboard in criticism of him (which I've been guilty of). I'm just glad he's started to show his "potential", because despite many going on about it before, we hadn't really seen it in a Liverpool shirt until now. I hope he keeps it up, but he needs to play like that consistently before we start declaring that his problems are solved.

Top work in the last two games though.

[liverpooll]

Who said he has become brilliant? He's had 2 solid good performances and he's starting to show signs of the "Brilliant" player he can become, Really hope he keeps this up now and goes on a good run, Confidence will grow in him game by game

The fact you didnt watch the game says it all of your opinion

I am not sure how can anyone say his Manchester United perfermance was solid, he was constantly losing the 1 on 1 battles. It might be a improvement but hard to say it was solid especially when he has been so poor that only an improvement is possible.

[Sharado]

I am not sure how can anyone say his Manchester United perfermance was solid, he was constantly losing the 1 on 1 battles. It might be a improvement but hard to say it was solid especially when he has been so poor that only an improvement is possible.

The thing is though, he wasn't losing 1 on 1 battles. the battles he lost in the united game tended to be 4 on 1 battles as he was often isolated upfront. but he won some of those 4 on 1 battles, and used the ball well when he did. The chest down and lay off to gerrard should of resulted in something much better than stevie blasting it over, for example, but it was a delightful piece of play by carroll.

Even if you don't think he was exceptional against united i think you'd be being really quite harsh to say his game wasn't 'solid'. He came away with an assist, having hit the post [which dirk should have followed in] and having used the ball very wisely on several other occasions. Also united, and then wolves, felt like the first time we were playing to his strengths and he was aware of 'ours' as it were.  Look at adam's ball for his goal against wolves (oh yeah, sorry you've not seen it) with that quality of delivery, and a big lad like andy putting himself about in the box and we're in business. But not only that - what alan hansen rightly pointed out on MOTD - was that andy had shown the desire to get into the box, having defended a corner in his own box, in double quick time. that's why people think he might of turned a corner. but maybe just throw a few poorly researched points about him into the mix, and maybe mention his fee - that'll see you right.

[Lenin]

I am not sure what has changed but it is still the same problems for me.

First, I did not watch the last game, however against Man United, he failed to win during the 1 on 1 challenges with the defenders. For instance, I remember there was a great cross for me and yet he could not defeat only defender near him whom was Evans in heading the ball. Similarly, against Bolton, Ngog looked more impressive as he definitely was holding the ball better.

Until he can get the better of the defender in the 1 on 1 situation, he will always be struggling. He depends very much on the perfect setup which is all about the other teammates doing the productive work and leaving him with tap ins.

[Sinead7]

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/team/first-team/statistics

Some interesting stats here,

Andy has won a higher percentage of duals than either Suarez or Bellamy.
He has cleared 2 less balls from defence than Enrique (20 & 22 respectively) and more than any other Midfielder bar Adam


A couple of random stats I know but I am a stat nerd and just found that on the main site.

[.Mike]

Hopefully he keeps this vein of form up, he could do with getting into double figures for the season. Would be happy if he could get 15 by the end of the season.

[Black Bull Nova]

I am not sure what has changed but it is still the same problems for me.

First, I did not watch the last game, however against Man United, he failed to win during the 1 on 1 challenges with the defenders. For instance, I remember there was a great cross for me and yet he could not defeat only defender near him whom was Evans in heading the ball. Similarly, against Bolton, Ngog looked more impressive as he definitely was holding the ball better.

Until he can get the better of the defender in the 1 on 1 situation, he will always be struggling. He depends very much on the perfect setup which is all about the other teammates doing the productive work and leaving him with tap ins.

Despair

[Black Bull Nova]

I am not sure how can anyone say his Manchester United perfermance was solid, he was constantly losing the 1 on 1 battles. It might be a improvement but hard to say it was solid especially when he has been so poor that only an improvement is possible.

More despair

The lack of balance in these threads is astounding, he will never be Andioso Carrolusu as so many people judge footballers these days but, and I've watched this one again, his all round play in this game, whilst not spectacular, was intelligent, strong and committed. From the lay on for Kuyt, the one for Gerrard, the tackle on Scholes, the second chance for Kuyt, the simple touches holding up the ball and even the time wasting. Not brilliant just very good and getting better. Compare him with the Dzeko's of this world (although cheaper at £27m), not the Aguero's, he's a particular type of player.

[La Vecchia Magpie]

Thought he's been class the last two games. Very happy for him, will always have a soft spot for him.

Incidently he was in the bowling alley in the metrocentre tonight Talk about keeping it real.

[liverpooll]

Even if you don't think he was exceptional against united i think you'd be being really quite harsh to say his game wasn't 'solid'. He came away with an assist, having hit the post [which dirk should have followed in] and having used the ball very wisely on several other occasions. Also united, and then wolves, felt like the first time we were playing to his strengths and he was aware of 'ours' as it were.  Look at adam's ball for his goal against wolves (oh yeah, sorry you've not seen it) with that quality of delivery, and a big lad like andy putting himself about in the box and we're in business. But not only that - what alan hansen rightly pointed out on MOTD - was that andy had shown the desire to get into the box, having defended a corner in his own box, in double quick time. that's why people think he might of turned a corner. but maybe just throw a few poorly researched points about him into the mix, and maybe mention his fee - that'll see you right.

Firstly, there is a fine line between hitting a post and poor finishing. Had we needed a goal at that time, it would have been only labeled the latter. But of course credit to him for his assist but that cannot take away the other 85 mins . Overall he was all over the place, he does not show much confidence in holding up the ball and eventually spend majority of time outside the box to try some long shots. That has been story of his career so far. There might be reason to see some improvements but definitely not enough reasons to understand how he has turned the corner.

[geoffstrong]

Firstly, there is a fine line between hitting a post and poor finishing. Had we needed a goal at that time, it would have been only labeled the latter. But of course credit to him for his assist but that cannot take away the other 85 mins . Overall he was all over the place, he does not show much confidence in holding up the ball and eventually spend majority of time outside the box to try some long shots. That has been story of his career so far. There might be reason to see some improvements but definitely not enough reasons to understand how he has turned the corner.

You commented on one game you never saw, this  view of the united game is also laughable , it is quite remarkable how entrenched you are about one of our own, you keep saying you want him to improve however he has and you don't see it! Hmmm

[Sharado]

Firstly, there is a fine line between hitting a post and poor finishing. Had we needed a goal at that time, it would have been only labeled the latter. But of course credit to him for his assist but that cannot take away the other 85 mins . Overall he was all over the place, he does not show much confidence in holding up the ball and eventually spend majority of time outside the box to try some long shots. That has been story of his career so far. There might be reason to see some improvements but definitely not enough reasons to understand how he has turned the corner.

Right well there's obviously no point whatsoever in posting with you on this subject as we were both watching different games then. And you didn't watch the wolves game. So I'm wasting my time.

[fowlermagic]

Lets see what Kenny has in mind for him once Suarez is now back ...Carroll had a chance to shine during the ban and until the past week or so he was struggling. Fair deuce for the performance against Wolves and this is more like it esp against shyte sides who def need to be seeing Carroll & Co turning them over. One decent to good performance gets the wind on our sails, you see the amount of well done posts the lad gets as we appreciate hard work even if you fall flat on your face as you get nought without effort. Same again ths iweekend as we need Carroll to reach 4th spot.

[Dr Manhattan]

There's one guy in this entire thread who offers nothing other than constant arguments. EVERY reply is to have or continue an argument. To have a pop at someone for their opinion. Literally every reply. Offering less and less to any discussion all the time. I'm amazed it's allowed to continue.

There's a discussion going on, and some people don't believe Carroll has contributed a great deal over the course of a year. Some do. Quite why one view over the other has to make you less or more of a fan of the club is fucking bewildering. EVERY player at the club will have their performances questioned at one time or another. Every player at EVERY club. That's what people do, whether they do it here on a forum or at the game in a pub, they all do it. People don't CHOOSE to dislike someone, they don't choose someone to single out, they discuss someone based on what they've offered the club and/or the side. Carroll, thus far, hasn't offered enough for some, so they've spoken out about it on these forums. So fucking what? Disagree? Then put across a counter-argument without looking like a dick. Otherwise don't bother, as all it does is kill the thread, kill the debate, and divide supporters.

[bogrollsbike]

Hes starting to show signs of the player he was at newcastle,if he keeps it up hopefully his confidence will improve and he'll become a threat in games.His touch and awarness seem to be improving and he looks to be hassling defenders more often aswell.

[Lenin]

There's one guy in this entire thread who offers nothing other than constant arguments. EVERY reply is to have or continue an argument.

No it's not.

[geoffstrong]

There's one guy in this entire thread who offers nothing other than constant arguments. EVERY reply is to have or continue an argument. To have a pop at someone for their opinion. Literally every reply. Offering less and less to any discussion all the time. I'm amazed it's allowed to continue.

There's a discussion going on, and some people don't believe Carroll has contributed a great deal over the course of a year. Some do. Quite why one view over the other has to make you less or more of a fan of the club is fucking bewildering. EVERY player at the club will have their performances questioned at one time or another. Every player at EVERY club. That's what people do, whether they do it here on a forum or at the game in a pub, they all do it. People don't CHOOSE to dislike someone, they don't choose someone to single out, they discuss someone based on what they've offered the club and/or the side. Carroll, thus far, hasn't offered enough for some, so they've spoken out about it on these forums. So fucking what? Disagree? Then put across a counter-argument without looking like a dick. Otherwise don't bother, as all it does is kill the thread, kill the debate, and divide supporters.

IRONY ALERT!

It comes down to extremes of criticism or comments,

 For everyone who goes OTT in the last few games about his performances,  you have a thread littered with the same people in each page offering simply the 'he is shite' argument or stupid gifs to take the piss, so Doc cant have it both ways can you, some people me included think he has potential and certainly has not earned the bile from some in here!
Does that mean I think he is great well no, not yet, do I think he will ever be good enough well jury is out on that as well, but it is far too early to bin him given the Lucas experience for some in here.
 
However I certainly would not go to the extreme of dissecting 6 minutes for any player on a major rivals pitch in a game won, like many chose to do a few pages back. Is that even logical or adding to the discussion at all?

Unlike some of your many posts though I will comment about football, he has looked better now why is that? For me he has players closer to him and profiting from his flick ons this has led to some people realising he can provide these.  However he has tried to provided these flick ons in most games but at times nobody has been closer than ten yards from him so therefore they fall to defenders and people think that is the fault of Andy or at times to be fair his touch has been poor.
 
In recent games though he is now getting these assists and with the goal on Tuesday his confidence will have improved and with it his touch, something that happens with many young players at a new and bigger club with more pressures on the players.  If you want the quality of discussion to improve then people need to forget the fee! We paid it rightly or wrongly and it has nothing to do with judging Andy's contribution on the pitch or for logical people it shouldn't at least.
Look at him as a young guy with raw potential who has not had the greatest of starts with us but could be a vital member of our squad and attacking options for years to come. Or he may fail, but at least give him the time required to prove this one way or the other at this club.

The worst thing that can happen now for him is that Kenny sticks him on the bench on Monday night, that might undo all his good work and ruin his confidence .

[Dr Manhattan]

There's no irony in that post whatsoever, Geoff. You should perhaps look up what that means. I haven't ONCE, in this thread or any other on Carroll, dismissed anyone's opinion on him. Personally I think people having an opinion actually makes the forum, and they don't actually deserve to have everything they say pounced upon over and over again just because they have a differing view.

Your post above is the first time for quite a while that you've even bothered to discuss Andy Carroll's pros and cons. Every single other post in here is to insult someone for having a different opinion to your own. Go ahead and look back through the last 5-6 pages if you don't want to take my word for it, you've done nothing but insult people for their opinion, and I just don't get what that adds to any discussion.

If anyone pulls you up on it then you go in to full on insult mode instead of arguing your case. You say that I should just ignore you, and I'm happy to do so most of the time, but in a thread like this you are quoted anyway, so I'll see it in the conversation. Interestingly, you've told the forum that you've blocked ME in your profile a few weeks back, but you still keep responding, so you can't really suggest that I ignore you if you're not doing the same, can you?

I'm just sick to death of people trying to force a divide between fans of the same club. Criticising their support, suggesting people aren't true fans if they have something to say on a certain player, making arguments where there doesn't need to be one. Every time I've replied to you I've been courteous, apart from a few pages ago where you reacted to a genuine question like a child. I haven't questioned your support of the club, I haven't chucked a snide dig in every other line, so I don't get why you constantly do this. There are a few people on here who really do cause arguments all the time and can't let things go, and that to me is not what makes a fanbase, it's what divides one.

[geoffstrong]

There's no irony in that post whatsoever, Geoff. You should perhaps look up what that means. I haven't ONCE, in this thread or any other on Carroll, dismissed anyone's opinion on him. Personally I think people having an opinion actually makes the forum, and they don't actually deserve to have everything they say pounced upon over and over again just because they have a differing view.

Your post above is the first time for quite a while that you've even bothered to discuss Andy Carroll's pros and cons. Every single other post in here is to insult someone for having a different opinion to your own. Go ahead and look back through the last 5-6 pages if you don't want to take my word for it, you've done nothing but insult people for their opinion, and I just don't get what that adds to any discussion.

If anyone pulls you up on it then you go in to full on insult mode instead of arguing your case. You say that I should just ignore you, and I'm happy to do so most of the time, but in a thread like this you are quoted anyway, so I'll see it in the conversation. Interestingly, you've told the forum that you've blocked ME in your profile a few weeks back, but you still keep responding, so you can't really suggest that I ignore you if you're not doing the same, can you?

I'm just sick to death of people trying to force a divide between fans of the same club. Criticising their support, suggesting people aren't true fans if they have something to say on a certain player, making arguments where there doesn't need to be one. Every time I've replied to you I've been courteous, apart from a few pages ago where you reacted to a genuine question like a child. I haven't questioned your support of the club, I haven't chucked a snide dig in every other line, so I don't get why you constantly do this. There are a few people on here who really do cause arguments all the time and can't let things go, and that to me is not what makes a fanbase, it's what divides one.

how ever if you look my responses and many others that you seem to miss, they are aimed at the people who occupy every page offering nothing but the 'he is shite point of view', you do not seem to castigate these posters in my view, therefore your posts are not as balanced as you seem to believe.
this is getting away from the point though unless you want to move to another area to discuss the good and bad points of threads like this one!

For me I have no problem with the I dont think he is good enough judging him as a player rather than a 35 mill player .

I do have a problem with people who repeat the same poorly constructed and repetitive he is shite posts,

 A I wonder what they achieve by this personally other than an ego trip.
B I wonder if some are casting a net.
C I wonder how anyone who loves the club can be so abusive to someone who is doing their best for the club in trying circumstances.

In the end though the only opinion that will have any bearing on Andy's career with us, is Kenny's.

[petrichor]

Poulsen could have been better than Xavi if we had supported him like you do for Carroll

[geoffstrong]

Poulsen could have been better than Xavi if we had supported him like you do for Carroll

And this adds what to the discussion ?

[Discipline]

Poulsen could have been better than Xavi if we had supported him like you do for Carroll

Did you just write that?

[liverpooll]

You commented on one game you never saw, this  view of the united game is also laughable , it is quite remarkable how entrenched you are about one of our own, you keep saying you want him to improve however he has and you don't see it! Hmmm

That is pathetic as mentioned by some other people here. No arguments from you. The only thing you are suggesting is that Carroll in "ONE" game was so brilliant that everything else is now irrelevant. I have watched enough matches and my opinion has been formed by those series of matches rather than changing constantly with a single match from terrible to a great player.

[LiverpoolForever]

How important do people see Gerrard in making the Suarez-Carroll partnership work?

Neither Suarez, Carroll or Gerrard have started a game together, and only played a total of 69 minutes together , and in the short term Gerrard is much as a creative key as those two working together.

Andy has struggled to find his feet regardless of who else is on the pitch with him until recently. Put Suarez back in there with a Carroll whose confidence is on the up as is his form, and it may just work? The last 2 games have been a real positive for Carroll , without anyone getting carried away.At least Carroll is running into the box meeting the ball instead of the static movement we have seen in so many games.

[geoffstrong]

That is pathetic as mentioned by some other people here. No arguments from you. The only thing you are suggesting is that Carroll in "ONE" game was so brilliant that everything else is now irrelevant. I have watched enough matches and my opinion has been formed by those series of matches rather than changing constantly with a single match from terrible to a great player.

Read above I am not saying he is brilliant, you however are dismissing his display against United and also commenting on a game you never saw, now what was that about pathetic again?

What was your opinion of Lucas when he first arrived and has your opinion changed?

[liverpooll]

Read above I am not saying he is brilliant, you however are dismissing his display against United and also commenting on a game you never saw, now what was that about pathetic again?

I think I have provided enough thoughts and reasons based on what I saw and if you still just want to "dismiss" it without your own arguements, we can call this discussion an end.

[bigbear]

How important do people see Gerrard in making the Suarez-Carroll partnership work?

Neither Suarez, Carroll or Gerrard have started a game together, and only played a total of 69 minutes together , and in the short term Gerrard is much as a creative key as those two working together.

Andy has struggled to find his feet regardless of who else is on the pitch with him until recently. Put Suarez back in there with a Carroll whose confidence is on the up as is his form, and it may just work? The last 2 games have been a real positive for Carroll , without anyone getting carried away.At least Carroll is running into the box meeting the ball instead of the static movement we have seen in so many games.

I think Gerrard's presence is enormous for both players as individuals if not the partnership. Gerrard is the best crosser of the ball in the club (for Carroll) as well as the one most able to find a clever though ball and link with a forward around the box (for Suarez).

I think it's important he gets into advanced areas to help them both but the view seems to have been taken that Gerrard plays deeper with Henderson further forward.

[geoffstrong]

I think I have provided enough thoughts and reasons based on what I saw and if you still just want to "dismiss" it without your own arguements, we can call this discussion an end.

as I said read above all in detail there, guess you didn't, also you have not answered the Lucas question!

He has improved maybe for some from a very low level, but I dont think anyone can say his contribution hasn't improved in the last couple of games. I cant see anybody saying he is playing great and now a world beater just simply better, has he turned a corner well the next few games will tell us the answer to that one.

As for the discussion it needs to be balanced to be a discussion at all.

As you say though I am done here with this thread.

[oddball]

Are the quilts that frequent the main board eking into here?

[Shanks1965]

Read above I am not saying he is brilliant, you however are dismissing his display against United and also commenting on a game you never saw, now what was that about pathetic again?

What was your opinion of Lucas when he first arrived and has your opinion changed?

Last comment is very true mate but I'd suggest that had Lucas arrived for a record breaking transfer fee, and played as he did for the best part of 2 seasons, he wouldnt have been here long enough to have developed into the player he is now.