Topic: Embracing failure - the new Liverpool Way

[SMD]

August 2004. Our star striker Michael Owen has just left for a cut price £10m deal that saw us sign Antonio Nunez in the opposite direction. Who? What? Where are we going with this? Where's the ambition? Manager Rafael Benitez had barely set up his office before the first of what would be many transfer dealings that would put immense pressure on his judgement. Towards the end of the month, the money paid for Owen and Murphy would go towards paying the fees for two exciting though relatively unproven names - Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia. Both these players would bring to the first team qualities unseen for years.

Luis Garcia is a name that will bring fond nostalgic smiles to faces of anyone in red. During his time with us, though, it wasn't always the case. Cries of 'for fuck's sake' would meet a misplaced pass or a skewed shot before Anfield would rise to its feet celebrating yet another stunner by the man who came from Barca to bring us joy. No one can doubt his effort, famously hobbling on against Everton after we made all our subs but also doing his best to help out his defence and support his attack.

You could argue that in Luis Suarez we have an even more explosive player willing to try anything but his fellow namesake has the benefit of being the attacking spearhead of this current Liverpool team. Luis Garcia had to contribute in midfield, which in a Rafa Benitez side has a tactical, defensive component. Yet Luis was usually first choice, so he must've done something right in that sense.

What does this have to do with the frankly provocative thread title? Under Rafa and Ged, we were by and large functional teams rather than anything else. Even Rafa's biggest supporters will admit that we were more machine than artists on the pitch. The difference between the two, and what Kenny has in abundance, is the inclusion of players who have that edge, who won't err on the side of caution and will try almost stupid things on the field that bring greater rewards. One of my favourite Suarez goals for us has to be the one at the Stadium of Light, where he had a run akin to the one that tore apart the United defence last season at Anfield but blasted it across goal instead. There are plenty of other occasions when that would fail spectacularly, such as against Arsenal in April.
Luis Garcia scored a stunner against Juventus in his first season that could quite easily have been half volleyed into the Upper Anfield Road end.

We are talking about players, to different extents, who were allowed to try and try again. Not just by their managers but by the fans as well. They were given the leeway to attempt the ridiculous even if it ended up still looking ridiculous.

In Europe, we played with greater freedom despite the greater tactical shackles because the expectations were either lower or could be met. By 2009 we quite rightly felt like we deserved to challenge for the Champions League. Every season! A quarterfinal loss was seen as a disappointment but the manner of our exit could be taken on the chin. In the league, we couldn't handle a home draw to send us top. Winning the Champions League is to some a double edged sword, because of the expectations it pushed onto our desire to perform in the quest for the title. Maybe but also because it stunned us all, we didn't get a chance to even consider the monkey on our back. It had been 20 years since our last final but we were just happy to be there.

I was pretty critical of our performance against Swansea last week, not because of the result but because of the performance in context of the season so far. I placed the 'blame' at Kenny's feet for his attitude towards his new signings and the changed tactical system from last season. You know what, though? In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. I'm a fan, I want us to win everything. I want us to win the coin toss, even. Kenny will tell you that he's only thinking game to game but it's been obvious that his view is long term. He's giving this team as much chance as possible to gel - but sometimes I feel like the gametime is hindering them because of the pressure from the stands.

Andy Carroll has been a symbol of the change under Kenny - selling Torres, for whatever reason, at a high price and replacing him with a younger, raw player from the UK with great potential. Honestly, forget the price tag. There's no point in moaning about it or wistfully listing the alternatives at that price. We all have our favourites and Kenny wanted Carroll. Whatever Derek Llambas wants to say to convince himself that he's gotten a great deal, we have a player on our books akin to one Kenny signed for Blackburn almost 20 years ago.

Alan Shearer was 22 when Kenny made a record bid for him to take him to Ewood Park from unfashionable Southampton. He had a patchy record in the league, starting with a hat trick on his full debut but then struggling for goals on a consistent basis. Nothing summed this up like England's poor international performances after World Cup Italia, as he was blamed and derided as lacking the class for that level. Euro '92 and World Cup '94 passed England by with one group stage to show between the two competitions.
He did well in an injury hit first season at Blackburn, to be fair to Shearer but it was the following season where he really started to shine. The following 3 seasons were Shearer's most productive ever.

Carroll was always going to invite comparisons and while it'd be great for him to reach those levels, he doesn't need to. With Suarez, Downing and Henderson we have three players who should be just as dangerous as Carroll. Watching them now can be jarring but we need to make sure we don't add to these teething problems.
The issue of atmosphere has risen again, after the fiasco of Hicks and Gillett's tenure has finally been laid to rest. There is a tension in the stands, especially with young Jordan Henderson on the flank. No point in arguing whether his performance causes the wailing in the ground or vice versa - it shouldn't happen to the extent that it does. When Garcia was here, we endured his frustration because when it paid off, it really paid off. Henderson may not have as much flair as the diminutive Spaniard but he deserves better. So do Carroll, Downing and Adam. I may not be a big fan and they may not have been my personal choices but they're here now and Kenny wants them to be here. Why would I want them to fail?

I'm not interested in starting the superfan bollocks debate again. No one will honestly tell you at the ground you can't be frustrated or vent your anger but when a large minority boo a young Liverpool player not yet 6 months into his career at the club, that's just moronic. We seem to only be a special club to players we want. Not going to learn the valuable lesson from Lucas?

We need to realise that we won't win the title like this. Forget Shearer, Peter Crouch had a troubled start to life at Liverpool and once he started scoring, he couldn't stop. And when he did score, we all willed it in. It didn't matter that his goal against Wigan was a comedy of errors and arguably could've been an own goal. We supported him.

We're supporters.

At the end of the day, it's Kenny Dalglish managing the club. He signed Andy Carroll. He signed Stewart Downing. He signed Jordan Henderson. He signed Charlie Adam. He signed Luis Suarez. Not every signing will be a sure fire hit but as long as overall we move forward, it works out.

Next time a pass is overhit or an easy shot doesn't go in, just shrug it off and applaud the effort. It's tragic that our players look borderline scared to play at home. Maybe once the tension subsides, they'll be more willing to take risks and take those failures on the chin. Because when you forget those tiny little failures on the pitch and end up winning the match, does it really matter that much? Leave it to Kenny and the coaching staff to take up those small failures in training. Ultimately, that's what you want right now. You want them to try different things to see what works and what doesn't. If you don't make mistakes, how do you learn from them? One of the funniest things about England's victory last night over Spain in a friendly is that ultimately England got fuck all out of it. They played like the result mattered and learnt nothing. Spain, on the other hand, played against a side the likes of which they've struggled against before (losing to the United States in the Confederations Cup) and varied their tactics throughout the match. Ultimately it was a better work out for them and they'll have valuable lessons to analyse over the coming months.

Embrace failure because if you don't take risks, you won't fail but you won't win big either.

[SMD]

I kind of just threw this out in one stream of consciousness. I've been mulling over the concept for a while but unsure how to put it. I guess the last week was the motivation I needed to put it down into words.

What do you guys think?

[Azi]

 

certain fans are probably frustrated how we've went from brilliance last season to mediocre this season and im probably one of them that will look at ashley young/mata hitting the ground running and think why the fuck is downing/Henderson not doing that   a for me Henderson is better placed in the middle not the wing where kenny has a habit of playing him i think we all just need to take a step back and just look at what we've been through in the last 12 months we all know the saying Rome wasn't built in a day and hopefully kenny will have us back where we belong playing football the right way

[SMD]

The thing is with Henderson is that his game seems to depend on his understanding with his full back and the central midfielder next to him. He quite clearly has ability but he seems to show it only when he doesn't have a chance to really consider his options, when instinct kicks in.

[El Campeador]

The lower the valley, the higher the peak.

[Hinesy]

Bump

[Hazell]

Wow, missed this post the first time around. Excellent post.

[Mr F]

It's a problem that's rife with football culture in general. With such high buy-ins these days fans, owners and the media expect instant success. Look at Villas-Boas for example, people already calling for his head despite the fact he's been there exactly 5 minutes. It's not his fault his owner wanted Torres for £50 million or him for £15 million yet already people are calling for his head despite being heralded as possibly the most exciting Portugese managerial prospect since Mourinho. Look at our team, and I'm only going to use Carroll as an example as he's the media scapegoat at the minute (I'm very glad we own him, don't get me wrong). As soon as someone dared to pay big money for a young Ingurlish player, the media were sharpening their knives, already writing the failure headlines they so desperately wanted to print. Heaven forbid it shouldn't click straight away or else the purchase was a complete and utter failure, case closed!

Of course, our predicament is in no way aided by the likes of Manchester City, teams who can buy world class talent that will undoubtedly fit straight into any side in the world (Aguero, Silva etc). People, including our own fans, see this and expect the same from our purchases. This was never going to happen but when, as a kid, you see someone with an Xbox, you fail to see just where your Chemistry set can get you.

Even society as a hole plays a part in it all. Life these days is so fast paced compared to even 20 years ago. If something doesn't work, just buy a new one or phone the 24 hour plumber. People can't stand waiting anymore, they see it as their god given right that everything functions when they want it to, which is usually straight away.

Finally, coming to your point about G&H, people expected the new dawn of the post knobhead era to be one of bounty and silverware. King Kenny at the helm, how could anyone stand in our way? To a certain extent at the back-end of last season the players were playing without fear (fuck all to go for, the return of the king etc etc). I remember some of the threads that were knocking around after the Fulham away where we tore them a new arsehole. Obviously teams can't be sustained on the fact their manager is a club legend and the end of last season, combined with what were/will be several good signings gave people belief that this was the start of something special.

And the point is....it is, but all the factors above contribute to people not realising this.

[Gnurglan]

Valid points in the OP. Naturally, players need to be given support. You need to take risks. I'd like to add that it should be the right kinds of risks, not just any risk. If we take it down to the pitch, it's alright to play the unexpected pass in the final third, but it's not very good to try to dribble as the last man. Same goes for our signings. Adam was a good risk to take for the fee we paid.

If we look at our new signings, I have been critical of Henderson, Downing and Carroll and I think this is relevant to the OP. In one of the first games, Downing made an excellent run, had a shot and it hit the bar. That kind of action is what we need from him. We haven't seen enough of it since. Downing has not taken enough risks and it's a real concern as he was bought to add that. In contrast, Henderson started off playing it too safe, but has since dared to take more risks. He has dared to express himself and it's been positive. Enrique, Adam and of course Suarez have done the same, with positive effects.

Supporters tend to like it too when players dare to play. Unless it's Luis Garcia, standing still with the ball outside our own box, inviting pressure, vs Chelsea in a CL semi final. That's not good for anyone's health.

[Rococo]

Missed this the first time round too.

Which match is it your referring to about a large minority booing Henderson?  I agree with the sentiment but I honestly don't think the players are playing with fear as some of the crowd are on their back, I just haven't seen anything that would suggest that.

The rest of it gets a wholehearted thumbs up from me.  I know it's been said loads of times before but there's some impatience in our support.  We're not entitled to overnight success and Kenny seems to be focussing on the long term.  When at the match, we all need to recognise that and the fact that there'll be some bumps along the way.

The thing is with Henderson is that his game seems to depend on his understanding with his full back and the central midfielder next to him. He quite clearly has ability but he seems to show it only when he doesn't have a chance to really consider his options, when instinct kicks in.

Think his little run through the Chelsea defence on Sunday illustrated this point perfectly.  It seemed to be pure instinct.

[John C]

I also missed it first time round, it must have been pushed down the page too quickly mate.
I agree entirely. When I go its with my ST holder mate who I've known since I was 3, he's a moaning fucker about Henderson and I think I'll have to tell him soon, best it comes from me. But if he tells me to stop moaning about Kuyt he's going to be told to fuck right off 


Albeit frustrating its nothing new at our club SMD, there were moans and groans all the way through the 46/47 title winning season. However, booing is fucking criminal, it always seems to happen at the other side of the ground so I don't get the opportunity to eye-ball what sort of knuckle head does it. It truly is beyond belief.


I don't predict any displays of ruthlessness from Kenny as some people are predicting he'll see the error of his ways and off-load his failures, bollocks, it will rather be a programme of development, team and confidence building. I feel like saying I can fucking practically guarantee Carroll will start scoring regularly in due course and people need to just realize its just a matter of time, games and service. Nothing else.
Good post mate.

[SMD]

Which match is it your referring to about a large minority booing Henderson?  I agree with the sentiment but I honestly don't think the players are playing with fear as some of the crowd are on their back, I just haven't seen anything that would suggest that.

It was Wolves at home when he was taken off.

[Torpedo Tommy]

I'm not interested in starting the superfan bollocks debate again. No one will honestly tell you at the ground you can't be frustrated or vent your anger but when a large minority boo a young Liverpool player not yet 6 months into his career at the club, that's just moronic. We seem to only be a special club to players we want. Not going to learn the valuable lesson from Lucas?

Is it 'Superfan' bollocks?  Serious question because I made a similar reference and I really don't think it is after I thought about it a little more.

Take, for example, Inverness.  That is just a club I have pulled out of the blue by the way - I'm not local to Inverness - nor am I a Scot.  I don't know one player who plays for them, I've never watched them and only know the place because me and the missus spent time up there many moons ago.

Looking at it, they can't be very good.  Minimal catchment area and a ball-acher of a place to get to especially in Winter for visiting fans.  Even players we fumed at like Konchesky and Poulsen would have looked world class there so why go watching them?  Their ground is on the banks of the Firth of Moray so I'm sure a brisk February Wednesday night in Inverness would make a shitty night in Stoke look like a walk down South Beach Miami.

So if they are shite and their ground - though it's in a beautiful area of the country - must be fookin windswept at times - why support Inverness?  It's practically impossible to boost their following.  There's little chance of them doing anything because practically, they are simply making the numbers up.  Are Inverness fans all Superfan's because they go watching their club and support them?  Nope.

Why then?  Because the key word is 'support'.  You love the club - be it Inverness, Liverpool, Tranmere or Chester City.  If you support the club then it is natural you support the players.  And that is why I don't get the nastiness against some of our players.  Debate?  Yes- of course, but some shit really does go over the top at times.

I'm sort of fortunate that I recall the good times of 20+ years ago so I suppose that those less fortunate are possibly more desperate to see success.  If they are then I can assure you they must frothing at the mouth because I long so much for that league title.  But I've witnessed some shite too.  Whilst I dodged Roy's Northampton bullet, I've suffered crap like Bolton at home in the FA Cup, Bristol City in the FA Cup and can anyone recall Chesterfield at home?  4-4 when Kevin Davies got an hatrick?  Were we 4-1 down!?  Jesus - not good times at all.  Rough with smooth?  Are we better now than in 1992 - 93?  I certainly think so.

Have a think about a few of our signings.  Henderson showed much promise at Sunderland and has done well for England at U21 level.  He's also not done too bad for us.  Stewart Downing and Charlie Adam were players of the year for Villa and Blackpool respectively - yep, they've been a bit hit and miss but haven't been terrible.  Andy Carroll had done so well for Newcastle and, yes, ok it was over a shorter length of time than £35m spent suggests he's worth but let's not forget he ripped us a new one last season and did so much better than he has for Liverpool yet.

Ask the questions.  Do you honestly think that all the new players have just dropped off because they have come to Liverpool?  Have they just lost their ability all of a sudden?  No, not a chance.  Look when Siralix started spending the Manc's money for fun in the late 80's - they were shite initially.  It was funny to watch players like Pallister who'd once been good at Boro struggle,  Neil Webb - outstanding at Forest but pathetic at United.  I remember the annoyance of their fan's when the they signed Dion Dublin instead of Shearer - the Manc's had as much vitriol in them against Dion as some have with Carroll now.  Didn't stop him winning a league winners medal with the Manc's though did it? (although I think he got badly injured and got the medal due to circumstances).  Suddenly, it all clicked and they have not looked back since.  All those players that were joining for big money and struggling three or four years previously started to gel, gain confidence and it all snowballed.

You see, I don't support a particular player - I support Liverpool Football Club.  It burns so much that we haven't won the league and having witnessed what the Manc's went through 20 years since - it is a very similar feeling.  I, and no doubt hundreds of thousands (if not millions) are going through frustrations now.  Our time will come but I know one thing, we'll have a far better chance if we all support the club and the players.

I've never booed at the ground - never.  I've walked out of Wolves last season with 20 mins to in disgust but I never booed.  As annoyed at Roy as I was, it wasn't his fault.  He was offered the job and fair play to him for having the balls to have a crack......especially when he had naff all chance of succeeding.

So versus Swansea recently.  Why boo?  If the players on the field did not realise that parts of that 0-0 with Swansea at home was simply not good enough then we are bollocksed.  They really should not be here and you can boo all you like, it will never make them play better.  If it's that they can't be arsed then we are bollocksed that way too.  There is a severe attitude problem - but I don't think it is.  I believe that the lapses in the second half are embeded and it will take decent 90 minute performances to get them out of our system.  I believe that it is time and patience we need more than ability.  So booing in my eyes is pointless.

The only thing that criticism and boing will breed is a drop in confidence.

Lucas is a prime example.  3 years ago I looked at this lad and didn't see him as a midfielder.  I didn't see him as a footballer capable of doing what he had in Brazil for Gremio or the national side at youth level.  He looked terrible.  He lacked in almost every department.  You can look at many midfielders and see just what type of players they are but Lucas 3 years ago?  Nah!  I never booed him but I did get frustrated because I saw a waste of a shirt.  I seen Lucas as either going down the pan and going back to the Brazilian 4th division or being no more than a squad player for a few years.  I look back now however and (gladfully) smile at how wrong I was.  How glad I am that I didn't consider joining in the bile against him.  Sure I questioned him a few times coming out of the match but I still saw him as a Liverpool player.  In my eyes he still doesn't get noticed as much as he should but my word that lad is important to this club.

So can the new lads do it under Kenny?  If Lucas can do it (to an extent) under Roy then I'm sure they can and if that is 'embracing failure' then fook it - I'm still going about things that way.  If it's being a 'superfan' then so be it - I'll don my cape and go that way instead......whatever is best for Liverpool Football Club

[leivapool]

That is a wonderful post, respect.

Anyone who does anything at the match other than applaud good play, or attempted play should be ashamed.  Whether the end product is what we hoped for is irrelevant, it's about the effort the player is making.  That's the frustrating thing hearing the crowd groan when young players, (Henderson and Carroll now, Lucas previously), don't get things exactly right.  These are young lads playing in front of 40,000 people while still learning their trade.  Imagine your first day at work, and 40,000 people are just waiting for you to make a mistake so they can criticise.  It would crush me, I know it would.  In contrast, 40,000 people encouraging our young players  would help them no end.

Lucas has talked extensively about how the crowd was on his back so much that he preferred to play away from home.  He's also said just how important confidence is to footballers.  Groaning and getting frustrated with players is really counter productive.  All those sideways passes Lucas used to make? they were caused by fear, the fear of what the crowd would do if he made a mistake trying a more ambitious pass.  Roll forward 3 years, Lucas tries an ambitious pass, it doesn't come off, he's applauded for the attempt.  Result, he maintains his hard won confidence and is willing to try the more difficult pass again, probably it will be successful next time and we will all benefit.  Confidence breeds confidence, and football is a game based on confidence.

[Torpedo Tommy]

Missed this the first time round too.

Which match is it your referring to about a large minority booing Henderson?  I agree with the sentiment but I honestly don't think the players are playing with fear as some of the crowd are on their back, I just haven't seen anything that would suggest that.

The rest of it gets a wholehearted thumbs up from me.  I know it's been said loads of times before but there's some impatience in our support.  We're not entitled to overnight success and Kenny seems to be focussing on the long term.  When at the match, we all need to recognise that and the fact that there'll be some bumps along the way.

Think his little run through the Chelsea defence on Sunday illustrated this point perfectly.  It seemed to be pure instinct.

I think that is a strong point though.

It is psychological.  If you know something might go wrong and if it did, the crowd would slaughter you for it, its obviously more likely to go wrong.  You'd tend to be edgy as the confidence drains.  Suddenly the ball that could be trapped under your foot and dispatched in one movement needs 3 or 4 touches - slowing things down and possibly denying the team the chance.  Then you stop looking for the ball completely and disappear from the game.

This is the philosophy behind Siralix and his mind games.  Just plant that seed of doubt in the mind that something can go wrong and watch it grow until something does.  It happens everywhere, between friends, through the media, at work through coercive management.  Confidence and inner belief is monumental - inside and outside of sport.  I remember Fowler taking the piss out of Glenn Hoddle in his book due to that Eileen Drewery fiasco.  Sure it was comical and, lets face it, Fowler did not need mind management in the mid 90's - he was as confident in his ability as I have ever seen any footballer.  But Hoddle had a point with the rest - he just went about it all wrong by employing a shrink and broadcasting it.

The mind is the key to winning the league or being successful generally.  Benitez coached and coached, asked the question to the one being coached and if he did not have the right answer he coached and coached again.  Familiarity and understanding breeds confidence.  If Liverpool are mentally strong, we will get better.  If everyone is against certain players then there will always be an element of doubt there.

Just look at Torres.  He was loved here.  His efforts to integrate here and his hard work aligned himself to the club.  His confidence was at its pinnacle.  Is he now shit?  No.  His confidence has been stripped as he is no longer top dog and is no longer guaranteed a starting place.  The crowd don't adore him there the same so it's always going to effect his belief.

Look at Andy Carroll's actions after the Swansea game.  He was gutted and walked straight off.  That ain't an attitude problem that is hurt because it ain't going well.  Same with Suarez - it is frustration.  His 4 minute cameo against Chelsea was - in hindsight comical.  He looked like a stoned art student playing footy with a beach ball wearing his Doc Martens.  Honestly though, like Torres, he can perform at much a higher level than he is.  He needs a bit of support, a bit more service, a goal or two, a bit more confidence and things will be a lot more rosy than it is for him now.

The Reclaim The Kop efforts - if successful would have been a huge step in the right direction.  It would have shown support towards the players as a group and would have helped removed this edgy atmosphere that descends on every game after 55 minutes if its a close game.  True, the players must perform a bit better but its a viscious circle and the easier one to rectify is get the support going.

Remember the day when nearly every player had his name chanted during the warm up?

[Torpedo Tommy]

That is a wonderful post, respect.

Anyone who does anything at the match other than applaud good play, or attempted play should be ashamed.  Whether the end product is what we hoped for is irrelevant, it's about the effort the player is making.  That's the frustrating thing hearing the crowd groan when young players, (Henderson and Carroll now, Lucas previously), don't get things exactly right.  These are young lads playing in front of 40,000 people while still learning their trade.  Imagine your first day at work, and 40,000 people are just waiting for you to make a mistake so they can criticise.  It would crush me, I know it would.  In contrast, 40,000 people encouraging our young players  would help them no end.

Lucas has talked extensively about how the crowd was on his back so much that he preferred to play away from home.  He's also said just how important confidence is to footballers.  Groaning and getting frustrated with players is really counter productive.  All those sideways passes Lucas used to make? they were caused by fear, the fear of what the crowd would do if he made a mistake trying a more ambitious pass.  Roll forward 3 years, Lucas tries an ambitious pass, it doesn't come off, he's applauded for the attempt.  Result, he maintains his hard won confidence and is willing to try the more difficult pass again, probably it will be successful next time and we will all benefit.  Confidence breeds confidence, and football is a game based on confidence.

In a nutshell really mate.

But from a less direct perspective and probably one of miniscule proportions compared to a crowd on your back it is what is said on boards that worries me.  If I'm Andy Carroll and I get advised of what is spouted on here I just look at it and say "shite!  I'm just not wanted here at Liverpool"  when the truth is, most people do want him here and those that don't can't see past the £35m price tag.

[Nessy76]

Some great posts here.

For me supporting the club has always meant supporting the players, whoever is on the pitch and in the kit at any time, they play for my team and I give them support. It also means supporting the manager. I still wanted Hodgson to defy all expectation and lead us to the title, even though it often seemed like he didn't realise that was his job at the time.

I understand frustration. Whatever anyone says about backing the players, we've all let out a "for fuck's sake" or called someone a dozy prick from time to time. The difference is, in the cold light of day, do you go around trumpeting that your team is shit, or do you give them all the support you can? Some people, and they are a noisy minority I sure, seem to relish slagging off the players, even when they haven't done much wrong. Some people have unrealistic expectations and want us to win every game 6-0. It's not that the rest of us don't want to see us win 6-0, it's that we appreciate how difficult that is, and so why it is special when it happens. The same people want every player, regardless of his position, to score every game. Otherwise he's slated.

I'm sure there have always been moaners, but the internet and the endless radio phone-ins give a voice to them, and help them find people who have the same negative outlook, so the rest of us can easily feel like we're surrounded by a crowd of miserable, spoilt kids.

I remember the same bewilderment when Owen was sold. And I was absolutely thrilled the first time I saw Luis Garcia on the pitch for Liverpool. He was my arguably my favourite player of that era. He took risks, when he lost the ball it was usually deep in the opposition half and when it came off and we'd see that grin and the thumb-sucking celebration... It was usually a celebration most of us looked at with jaws open, trying to work out exactly how he'd got from where he was to sticking the ball into the goal. And people moaned about him. Like they did about Danny Murphy before him. When I looked at Murphy I saw those goals against Man Utd. Again, not everything he did came off, but he rarely put the side in trouble.

Momo Sissoko was another player I really rated, but after his eye injury he came back a bit low on confidence, didn't want to pass it too far, and he was usually next to Gerrard or Alonso, so it wasn't like he really needed to, but for some reason he gave it away once or twice and people started getting on his back. He never came back from that, you could see how much it affected the way he played, he was within himself and with Mascherano and Alonso taking over the holding roles, and young Lucas coming in, he was effectively hounded out of the club. That really bothered me. It seemed to me that a section of our fans had contributed directly to the deterioration of a player, just a couple of years after the support at Anfield had roared us past Juventus and Chelsea and on to Istanbul. Juve and Chelsea matched us on the pitch, but in the stands we were in a different league.

I could see that Rafa was trying to expand Lucas' game by making him sit deeper, and I got tired of pointing out to people who were calling him the worst player ever to appear for the team that he actually wasn't doing much wrong, rarely gave the ball away, and clearly had more to his game than he was showing. (Benitez wasn't perfect, but he had little time for poor players, whether he'd signed them or not. I actually thought Mark Gonzales probably deserved a 2nd season, for instance.) And I could hear the same fans saying the same things about Lucas as they said about Momo. Another young player getting tutted if he lost possession (although, as I say, that actually never happened much) and being apparently encouraged to play within himself. Luckily, the Brazilian was made of sterner stuff and actually, eventually, managed to convince most of his critics (by no means all, there are still far too many so-called supporters who will slag him off at any opportunity.)

And now Henderson and Carroll are getting much the same treatment, from the same group who seem to think they know everything, but never seem to actually learn anything. The supergobs aren't going to change their tune, it's ingrained in them to whinge and moan, they'll often trump about their "right" to complain, as if someone was suggesting they should be gagged or something, but they'll never consider the responsibilities that come with that right.

The players can hear you.

So all we can do is try and drown them out. And let those lads know that while they wear that kit, although they will get stick for everything they do, on or off the pitch, if they drink booze or pineapple juice, if they go out and enjoy themselves, or if they stay home and play playstation games, while they will always be targets for the prejudiced complaints of miserablists and infantile obsessional perfectionists, they will never walk alone, because to some of us, to most of us, that's not just a song we sing.

[Mutton Geoff]

One good example for me was the amount of patience given to Crouch when we first bought him than the total lack of patience given to the new players now. So my question would be why?

Was it he was a Rafa buy, was it we were not so demanding because the results were ok, was it his fee because as a striker he wasn't more value for money than Andy is now!

For me I think too many of our fans have swallowed the sky mindset and don't watch Andy the potentially good player for many seasons to come, no some just see Andy the 35 million player and judge him solely on his fee alone, they expect the hulk, Messi, aguero , rolled into one ! He suffers from the over expectation of fans but frankly if they need to microscopically dissect 3-4 minutes on the pitch with a win away, then  we have also too many wind up merchants using Andy as a vehicle in here! I can see no other logical reasoning for somebody needing to post negative stuff about him while myself and most fans were celebrating a vital away win well.

If you think some of this doesn't get to the players wrong remember when the club was in the shit, tabloid writers used forums like this as a great source for copy. What we have here isn't new Momo, Jar, Dirk, Lucas, now Henderson, Downing and Andy have become the targets for the rent a pitchfork mob!

For every constructive comment there are about 10 mindless one liners calling them shit etc. Everyone is entitled to a view on any player but for me it has how they express it and whether their view is a balanced and fair one rather than a hatchet job.

[Torpedo Tommy]

For me I think too many of our fans have swallowed the sky mindset ...

If you think some of this doesn't get to the players wrong remember when the club was in the shit, tabloid writers used forums like this as a great source for copy.

Massive massive points!

Something that Kenny pointed out when he asked everyone who hadthe interests of the club to stick together.

The Sky mindset is a worrying one.  Remember the 31st August this season.  They'd actually lined up 'Arry to be driven through the training ground gates.  Completely fucking rehearsed for the camera's.  Honestly, if they could have kept his face still for 5 minutes they'd have put makeup on the c*ntr.  But no doubt people sat there believing it to be happening.

Even when they asked 'Arry about the 'big one' (in respect of a 'HUGE!' deadline daytransfer), everyone was led to think Kaka was there.  So 'Arry, played along with the Sky Sports tune.  "yeah, yeah, we had hoped to bring in a big one.  We had a big one but he got away" advised Arry hanging from the passenger seat of his Overfinch (paid for by the public purse no doubt!) to which the reporter responded so close to climax "who was it 'Arry.  Tell me 'Arry, was it Kaka 'Arry, say his name, say is name 'Arry!" to which 'Arry responded  "Nah, it wasn't Kaka.  It was Gary Cahill!"

I almost pissed myself laughing.  I could imagine thousands of Spurs fan's slamming down their TV remotes in disgust.  Sky had fed them the line all day and they'd took it good and proper.  Kaka was probably on a beach in Rio but they'd peddled the shit he was in North London.  All just for TV - just to get the TV ratings up.

It is funny in some senses but it is serious too which is the negative shite that can be peddled about clubs - which is what you refer to.  So many can't think for themselves these days.  Why do that when Sky can think for you?

[Torpedo Tommy]

I understand frustration. Whatever anyone says about backing the players, we've all let out a "for fuck's sake" or called someone a dozy prick from time to time. The difference is, in the cold light of day, do you go around trumpeting that your team is shit, or do you give them all the support you can? Some people, and they are a noisy minority I sure, seem to relish slagging off the players, even when they haven't done much wrong. Some people have unrealistic expectations and want us to win every game 6-0. It's not that the rest of us don't want to see us win 6-0, it's that we appreciate how difficult that is, and so why it is special when it happens. The same people want every player, regardless of his position, to score every game. Otherwise he's slated.

Aye!  Indeed.

It's not the analysis or the topic of the analysis.  It's how it's vented and put across

[Mr F]

Was it he was a Rafa buy, was it we were not so demanding because the results were ok, was it his fee because as a striker he wasn't more value for money than Andy is now!

Nail on the head in my opinion. People use money as a stick with which to brow beat footballers these days (and to an extent they are correct to, eg the Tevez scenario). How many times do you hear 'I could make that pass if i was on £X,000 a week' etc.? Crouch's fee was considerably less than Andy's (but he had none of Andy's potential) and the fact it took him so long to get his first goal almost made people feel sorry for him and defend him against the press/other fans. People are generally so short-sighted that they can't see anything other than the here and now.  All they see is £35 million for a 22 year old who hasn't instantly repaid his worth in half a season.

Unfortunately with the recession, one of the only things to go up were the wages of people already earning ridiculous amounts of money for what it is they actually do. Now, apart from the prima donnas who demand more money, most footballers would even agree that they don't deserve as much money as they get. It's not as if Andy asked us to spend £35 million on him. It was a decision made by Kenny and the powers that be and if it was their decision, i'm willing to back it.

[WOOLTONIAN]

Am I a 'Superfan' (wearer of rose tinted glasses).... Was I ever a 'Superfan' ?

Are we Shite..... or Are we Brilliant ?
The truth is, we're neither.

The truth hurts even more, we are a mediocre (top half) team who occasionally raises their game to beat one of the 'Top sides'
At best over the last two decades, we are a 'cup side' picking up the odd bit of silverware every odd year or so.

My current fan status ?
I find the best weathervein is, how I feel after a poor home draw or an away defeat.
To be honest neither make me feel sick any more.
There was a time I would really hurt inside, like someone had ripped my heart out.
Nowadays I just feel nausiated.
It appears to me like the 'flame of passion' I once burned at both ends, has now all but gone.
Instead of raving like a loony, refusing to go out or hiding in the coal cellar when we lose, I now just shrug my shoulders.
To be honest, nowadays, I half expect us to drop points against teams from the lower half of the league.
Why ? because that's exactly what we do.
Instead of being a model of consistancy, we have morphed into a Jekyl & Hyde team.
We can quite easily beat sides like Chelsea away followed not so long after by a home draw with whoever is in the bottom three.
How can anyone expect our fan base to be consistant, when our team are so inconsistant ?
We have become Jekyl & Hyde fans following a Jekyl & Hyde team.

I refuse to 'Embrace failure' because we are not failures. BUT...
I do think we must accept MEDIOCRITY, which I think is gut wretching

[WheelerLFC]

I think your right in some sence but by your logic of 'if there not performing, why should i sing and shout?' fair enough if you expect us to draw and you shrug your sholders but as it has been said in here already confidence is everything and its us as the fans that can go along way in building that, so if you turn up half expecting us to draw then you'll only give half the effort in helping the team and if your not going to give 100% and expect the win then your part of the problem.

i totaly understand the frustration because i feal it as much as anyone but that has never made me consider draws against lesser teams, sometimes we all should don our rose tinted specs and turn up expecting a win because that is what spurs everyone on, the fans, the team and most importantly L.F.C. as a whole.

[helmboy_nige]

Some of these comparisons over why Henderson/Downing haven't hit the ground running and the likes of Young and Mata have are off the mark.

The most important thing to remember is that Young is slotting into an established side.  As is Mata.  True that Mata has had a great start to his prem career but a lot of foreign players struggle at first.  Henderson, Downing, Adam, Carroll, Suarez and Enrique.  6 out of 10 outfield players who have played together only a handful of times.  And when you think about the fact that none of those players were in a Liverpool shirt 12 months ago it really is early days.

Most new players slot into an existing format.  It's rare that you make wholesale changes in the space of 6 months.  That's what Kenny has done and as a result it will take time to come together.  The most important failing of recent seasons has been fixed - squad depth.  The new depth of choices available was employed brilliantly by Kenny against Chelsea.  Some may moan that we 'went backwards' by dropping our summer signings in favour of the like of Maxi, but this is what squad depth is about.  Rotating the team and formation based on the conditions. 

I think because of the costs, people expect to see Henderson, downing and Carroll playing week in week out, and I can understand it, but in reality the cost of players is unimportant as long as we win.

[Grobbelrevell]

We seem to only be a special club to players we want. Not going to learn the valuable lesson from Lucas?

Nice post mate. This bit stood out to me, in particular.

[Hinesy]

Am I a 'Superfan' (wearer of rose tinted glasses).... Was I ever a 'Superfan' ?

Are we Shite..... or Are we Brilliant ?
The truth is, we're neither.

The truth hurts even more, we are a mediocre (top half) team who occasionally raises their game to beat one of the 'Top sides'
At best over the last two decades, we are a 'cup side' picking up the odd bit of silverware every odd year or so.

My current fan status ?
I find the best weathervein is, how I feel after a poor home draw or an away defeat.
To be honest neither make me feel sick any more.
There was a time I would really hurt inside, like someone had ripped my heart out.
Nowadays I just feel nausiated.
It appears to me like the 'flame of passion' I once burned at both ends, has now all but gone.
Instead of raving like a loony, refusing to go out or hiding in the coal cellar when we lose, I now just shrug my shoulders.
To be honest, nowadays, I half expect us to drop points against teams from the lower half of the league.
Why ? because that's exactly what we do.
Instead of being a model of consistancy, we have morphed into a Jekyl & Hyde team.
We can quite easily beat sides like Chelsea away followed not so long after by a home draw with whoever is in the bottom three.
How can anyone expect our fan base to be consistant, when our team are so inconsistant ?
We have become Jekyl & Hyde fans following a Jekyl & Hyde team.

I refuse to 'Embrace failure' because we are not failures. BUT...
I do think we must accept MEDIOCRITY, which I think is gut wretching

Ah this is so sad, because its so true.

[Carra-ton]

It's a problem that's rife with football culture in general. With such high buy-ins these days fans, owners and the media expect instant success. Look at Villas-Boas for example, people already calling for his head despite the fact he's been there exactly 5 minutes. It's not his fault his owner wanted Torres for £50 million or him for £15 million yet already people are calling for his head despite being heralded as possibly the most exciting Portugese managerial prospect since Mourinho. Look at our team, and I'm only going to use Carroll as an example as he's the media scapegoat at the minute (I'm very glad we own him, don't get me wrong). As soon as someone dared to pay big money for a young Ingurlish player, the media were sharpening their knives, already writing the failure headlines they so desperately wanted to print. Heaven forbid it shouldn't click straight away or else the purchase was a complete and utter failure, case closed!

Of course, our predicament is in no way aided by the likes of Manchester City, teams who can buy world class talent that will undoubtedly fit straight into any side in the world (Aguero, Silva etc). People, including our own fans, see this and expect the same from our purchases. This was never going to happen but when, as a kid, you see someone with an Xbox, you fail to see just where your Chemistry set can get you.

Even society as a hole plays a part in it all. Life these days is so fast paced compared to even 20 years ago. If something doesn't work, just buy a new one or phone the 24 hour plumber. People can't stand waiting anymore, they see it as their god given right that everything functions when they want it to, which is usually straight away.

Finally, coming to your point about G&H, people expected the new dawn of the post knobhead era to be one of bounty and silverware. King Kenny at the helm, how could anyone stand in our way? To a certain extent at the back-end of last season the players were playing without fear (fuck all to go for, the return of the king etc etc). I remember some of the threads that were knocking around after the Fulham away where we tore them a new arsehole. Obviously teams can't be sustained on the fact their manager is a club legend and the end of last season, combined with what were/will be several good signings gave people belief that this was the start of something special.

And the point is....it is, but all the factors above contribute to people not realising this.

Great OP and great post this as well.

[Red Beret]

I think the important lesson is we must learn to accept setbacks.  If you look at the likes of Chelsea and City, there merest hint of failure leads to all sorts of problems.  It's not about tolerating failure but recognising it's part of the journey to success.

[ThisIsMickey]

Great post. Wholeheartedly agree. Few class responses as well

[drpepe]

Some of these comparisons over why Henderson/Downing haven't hit the ground running and the likes of Young and Mata have are off the mark.

The most important thing to remember is that Young is slotting into an established side.  As is Mata.  True that Mata has had a great start to his prem career but a lot of foreign players struggle at first.  Henderson, Downing, Adam, Carroll, Suarez and Enrique.  6 out of 10 outfield players who have played together only a handful of times.  And when you think about the fact that none of those players were in a Liverpool shirt 12 months ago it really is early days.

Most new players slot into an existing format.  It's rare that you make wholesale changes in the space of 6 months.  That's what Kenny has done and as a result it will take time to come together.  The most important failing of recent seasons has been fixed - squad depth.  The new depth of choices available was employed brilliantly by Kenny against Chelsea.  Some may moan that we 'went backwards' by dropping our summer signings in favour of the like of Maxi, but this is what squad depth is about.  Rotating the team and formation based on the conditions. 

I think because of the costs, people expect to see Henderson, downing and Carroll playing week in week out, and I can understand it, but in reality the cost of players is unimportant as long as we win.

good post imo.

The last sentence is particularly resonant  - we all know it is easy to pick holes/justify any managers signings with selected stats and comparisons, but the most important thing is winning. As long as you are at the top of the game and winning, anything is justified (see: United, Manchester).

[Vulmea]

Am I a 'Superfan' (wearer of rose tinted glasses).... Was I ever a 'Superfan' ?

Are we Shite..... or Are we Brilliant ?
The truth is, we're neither.

The truth hurts even more, we are a mediocre (top half) team who occasionally raises their game to beat one of the 'Top sides'
At best over the last two decades, we are a 'cup side' picking up the odd bit of silverware every odd year or so.

My current fan status ?
I find the best weathervein is, how I feel after a poor home draw or an away defeat.
To be honest neither make me feel sick any more.
There was a time I would really hurt inside, like someone had ripped my heart out.
Nowadays I just feel nausiated.
It appears to me like the 'flame of passion' I once burned at both ends, has now all but gone.
Instead of raving like a loony, refusing to go out or hiding in the coal cellar when we lose, I now just shrug my shoulders.
To be honest, nowadays, I half expect us to drop points against teams from the lower half of the league.
Why ? because that's exactly what we do.
Instead of being a model of consistancy, we have morphed into a Jekyl & Hyde team.
We can quite easily beat sides like Chelsea away followed not so long after by a home draw with whoever is in the bottom three.
How can anyone expect our fan base to be consistant, when our team are so inconsistant ?
We have become Jekyl & Hyde fans following a Jekyl & Hyde team.

I refuse to 'Embrace failure' because we are not failures. BUT...
I do think we must accept MEDIOCRITY, which I think is gut wretching

Sounds like a very jaded and world weary view - from a  personal perspective the tension before and depression/anger afterwards have been back this season - which isn't ne=cessarily a good thing - the idea our reputation is once again on the line - as fans and as a club  - whilst for the previous 2 years medioctrity was indeed the order of the day and to be honest what happened on the pitch for me was secondary to what was happening off it.

Dont buy the why should the fans be consistant when the players aren't either - one can certainly influence the other - the fans are only up for the big games and I'd say its far more noticeable than it ever used to be  - maybe it was easier to be relaxed when you knew we'd win - but the tension and edge is palpable these days and the intolerance (even booing) not that far behind
that must translate on to the pitch.

30 years ago we had players who would play away on the proverbial wet wednesday infront of a half empty stadium with no TV cameras and give 100% - United and Chelsea were the glamour sides who'd get up for the big games but disapear for the rest - the league was a grind - now our fans go ape if you dont sign a fancy name or a 'superstar' for every position - then they moan when the superstars with inflated ego's and sense of importance can't be arsed to try against the lesser teams they cry about it

we lost our way in the 90's we changed to do all those things we mocked in others - we chased success by buying stars -rather than building  a team - we valued individuals rather than how they fitted into a system - we tried to buy complete players instead of building or grafting in  our own over time - all because of the demand for instant success for an immediate fix - got ourselves to blame for some of it.

[1021]

Some really great posts in here. I liked the OP and agree with a lot in it particulary the reference to Lucas Leiva.

However;

"What does this have to do with the frankly provocative thread title? Under Rafa and Ged, we were by and large functional teams rather than anything else. Even Rafa's biggest supporters will admit that we were more machine than artists on the pitch. The difference between the two, and what Kenny has in abundance, is the inclusion of players who have that edge, who won't err on the side of caution and will try almost stupid things on the field that bring greater rewards"

This isn't how I would characterise us under Kenny, because aside from Suarez I don't see a great deal of artists on the pitch.
Carroll? He may be a goos forward in the years to come but he isn't ever going to be technically superb, nor will be create stuff from nothing.
Adam? Not sure. Henderson? I do believe he'll be a star. Downing? I don't see it. Maxi? We don't see him. Kuyt? Nope. Gerrard? Not fit.

One of the things you are getting at in patience, and embracing the rebuilding process because it'll take time and the same does apply to the question I have asked. But I don't actually think as a side we possess anywhere near enough magic or guile in the side, indeed a fair bit of what we possessed went in the summer. I think the plan is there but I'm not so certain about the personnel, but we will have to wait and see.

[Red_Skippy]

I kind of liken the attitude of some supporters to that of everyday Gen Y bell ends who expect it all up font on a silver platter.  Expensive car, big house and all the latest mod cons.  That attitude is carried over into football supporters.

Would it be fair to suggest that 75% of the LFC supporter base are more than likely fairweather sorts?  I would think so.

[Finn Solomon]

A great read SMD. I agree with the first part, under Rafa we were an all-crushing machine, but you got the feeling there wasn't much room for spontaneous brilliance. Can't wait for Kenny's team to give us more moments of magic.

[koptician]

One good example for me was the amount of patience given to Crouch when we first bought him than the total lack of patience given to the new players now. So my question would be why?

Was it he was a Rafa buy, was it we were not so demanding because the results were ok, was it his fee because as a striker he wasn't more value for money than Andy is now!

For me I think too many of our fans have swallowed the sky mindset and don't watch Andy the potentially good player for many seasons to come, no some just see Andy the 35 million player and judge him solely on his fee alone, they expect the hulk, Messi, aguero , rolled into one ! He suffers from the over expectation of fans but frankly if they need to microscopically dissect 3-4 minutes on the pitch with a win away, then  we have also too many wind up merchants using Andy as a vehicle in here! I can see no other logical reasoning for somebody needing to post negative stuff about him while myself and most fans were celebrating a vital away win well.

If you think some of this doesn't get to the players wrong remember when the club was in the shit, tabloid writers used forums like this as a great source for copy. What we have here isn't new Momo, Jar, Dirk, Lucas, now Henderson, Downing and Andy have become the targets for the rent a pitchfork mob!

For every constructive comment there are about 10 mindless one liners calling them shit etc. Everyone is entitled to a view on any player but for me it has how they express it and whether their view is a balanced and fair one rather than a hatchet job.

Well, one thing Crouch has always had was a very good first touch and a deft turn.  He is good with the ball at his feel and can dance past defenders.  Carroll on the other hand can look decidedly clumsy at times when a football is in his vicinity

[leivapool]

In a nutshell really mate.

But from a less direct perspective and probably one of miniscule proportions compared to a crowd on your back it is what is said on boards that worries me.  If I'm Andy Carroll and I get advised of what is spouted on here I just look at it and say "shite!  I'm just not wanted here at Liverpool"  when the truth is, most people do want him here and those that don't can't see past the £35m price tag.

I must see it slightly differently to you, as I think there is a fundamental differrence between the match and the boards.  For me, when I go the match I support all the players wearing our shirt, support them unconditionally, they are after all playing for our club.

 But I also think that the boards are the place to discuss players.  It's about how it's done.  Saying any player is shite or other such derogatory phrases is completely unacceptable IMO.  I saw Lucas described as 'shite' on TIA after the Swansea game, it's wrong and shouldn't be done........not just to Lucas, to any player.  But discussing a players strengths and weaknesses, personally I just don't see the problem with that. 

[impz]

There's debating players and then there's debating players...

The entitlement is on the verge off fracturing the fan base even more..

Did people actually not learn ANYTHING from the last 2 years.. Is it just like it never happened? and we're back in may 2009?

People need  to get a grip sometimes.

[kavah]

just bookmarking this to read later, ta.

[Torpedo Tommy]

I must see it slightly differently to you, as I think there is a fundamental differrence between the match and the boards.  For me, when I go the match I support all the players wearing our shirt, support them unconditionally, they are after all playing for our club.

 But I also think that the boards are the place to discuss players.  It's about how it's done.  Saying any player is shite or other such derogatory phrases is completely unacceptable IMO.  I saw Lucas described as 'shite' on TIA after the Swansea game, it's wrong and shouldn't be done........not just to Lucas, to any player.  But discussing a players strengths and weaknesses, personally I just don't see the problem with that.

I 100% agree.  I honestly do.

I'm not going through the Carroll, Henderson and Adam threads because it would be highlighting particular posts and singling people out.  But some posts really go beyond a simlpe "he's shite".  You are right, that is wrong but some posts against Carroll are sad.  I was a little bemused about the praise that Gary the Rat Head Neville was getting.  Most posts were actually on the button.  He's far better than I anticipated and the comment about Luiz being controlled by a Playstation controller actually got a laugh out of me.

But you compare that to the stick that some Liverpool supporters come up with against our own players is touching on untrue.  Some will make a 'nice' comment about Neville, a c*nt who 'hates everything about Liverpool and Liverpool people' and then slaughter our own.  Maybe it ain't the same people but it's a fooking wide disillusioned spectrum of fan opinion.

Not many appreciate what the power of divide will do at this club.  If the club and fans unify we have a far better chance to move forward.  That is Kenny's point.  It's not really about opinions - it's about how they are expressed.  "Andy Carroll is playing shite ain't he.  True he ain't getting the supply but he must know he's got to do better" or "Andy Carroll is shite.  How the fucking hell did Newcastle take us for £35m.   His control is shite and he's a pisshead"

One to me is logical.  The other stinks of price-o-phobia, moody strop on because we didn't sign Dr David Banner's rip off from Portugal or some big lad with a perm from Spain - all mixed with a bitter immature emotion.

Don't matter if it's in a pub to your mates because it's always forgotten.  But if you start booing at a ground or posting it on forums its actually visible in writing or the press will jump on it to drive open a divide.

[Torpedo Tommy]

Sounds like a very jaded and world weary view - from a  personal perspective the tension before and depression/anger afterwards have been back this season - which isn't ne=cessarily a good thing - the idea our reputation is once again on the line - as fans and as a club  - whilst for the previous 2 years medioctrity was indeed the order of the day and to be honest what happened on the pitch for me was secondary to what was happening off it.

Dont buy the why should the fans be consistant when the players aren't either - one can certainly influence the other - the fans are only up for the big games and I'd say its far more noticeable than it ever used to be  - maybe it was easier to be relaxed when you knew we'd win - but the tension and edge is palpable these days and the intolerance (even booing) not that far behind
that must translate on to the pitch.

30 years ago we had players who would play away on the proverbial wet wednesday infront of a half empty stadium with no TV cameras and give 100% - United and Chelsea were the glamour sides who'd get up for the big games but disapear for the rest - the league was a grind - now our fans go ape if you dont sign a fancy name or a 'superstar' for every position - then they moan when the superstars with inflated ego's and sense of importance can't be arsed to try against the lesser teams they cry about it

we lost our way in the 90's we changed to do all those things we mocked in others - we chased success by buying stars -rather than building  a team - we valued individuals rather than how they fitted into a system - we tried to buy complete players instead of building or grafting in  our own over time - all because of the demand for instant success for an immediate fix - got ourselves to blame for some of it.