Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[gkmacca]

I'm think I'm in the same place as the guy who said if Kenny stayed he could understand and see the reasoning behind it but, also conversely, if he stood down he'd think fair enough.

Sounds like Nick Clegg!

[barnseysleftpeg]

I think I know why there are shouts for Rafa even though many disagree with it. Like Neil I hate that we never, even when we are playing well, seem to have control of the game.  Maybe I just grew accustomed to that with Rafa but it was comforting. You have to have the players for that I guess and in Alonso and Masch they were the perfect duo to implement that. Lucas has the game intelligence and ball winning capabilities to be one half of a control oriented midfield, Henderson could be the one one to partner Lucas in that but whether he gets the chance to show it is anyones guess.

Considering I'm 34 and can clearly remember Kennys great team and Evans very attacking team of the mid 90s, I really like Rafas 4231 if only we could of added quality wide players at the time... Even Glen Johnson would have been a revelation in that 08 season.

I don't subscribe with the thought that Kenny is past it I think he just made a miscalculation when he decided to move away from the style of play we had at  the back end of last season.

[barnseysleftpeg]

Sounds like Nick Clegg!

Proper sitting on the fence i know. In actuality I'm probably leaning more towards Kenny going but voicing it outright doesn't feel right. He gave me the 1988 team and my favourite player of all time; John Barnes. I love the guy so its hard for me to criticise him.

[Hightown Phil]

I am most definitely not like Nick Fucking Clegg.

[SheffieldRed]

Great episode. Best one yet, but uncomfortable listening. The Everton parallels sent shivers down my spine. Great balanced and civil debate. Can't wait to hear the bigger picture episode. Well done lads.

[Filler.]

Another good listen. I think it would have worked better tho if each person had their say for 60 seconds and then debated points raised afterwards.

Thought it was rational and well thought out with good points put forward. I disagreed with the general consensus tho, and for the first time had my jaw on the floor with the idea of Capello taking over. Do we really need to go round and round in circles? Do we really need to add another dollop of media glee into the mix? Do we really need that crap? We don't do we?

[Golden_Child]

Great episode, well done lads.

Made me chuckle when they discussed 'the Rafa in the room'.

Like most of the guys on there I think I'm sitting somewhere in the middle. Whatever happens I'll be able to understand the reasoning behind it. The sentimentality will be there no matter what, it just needs to be pushed to the background as much as possible when making any decisions.

[paiiv]

This was such a difficult and uncomfortable episode to listen to - if I'm completely honest I felt like crying after the first 3 mins. BUT it had to be discussed and boy did you do a brilliant job.

I didn't expect it to be this honest and frank either. Very well done everyone involved.

[Not A Scouser]

Sometimes there is no obvious right answer and I think that is what came across from that.  Arguments for both sides that make sense to me (for Kenny: risk of new manager, CV, sentimentality) and against (poor season, what was the plan? unmotivated players, is he a modern manager?)

[L666KOP]

Sentimentality should not be a reason for keeping anyone at a football club.
Plenty of people beat Carra with that stick.
FSG gave Kenny the gig last summer because of how he turned last season around, not because he won the title 20 odd years ago.
If they think he can do a job, they must back him with a good transfer budget, and issue a statement to that effect.
If they don't, they must relieve him of his duties immediately, I don't want him 'given one more season' with his hands tied behind his back in the transfer market.
Shit or get off the pot time for FSG.

And can I just say, that if Kenny does not get next season to put right what's gone wrong this season, it will be a fucking dark day in our history.

[El Festino]

Brilliant work lads. I knew the question and i have my own thoughts but i was really keen to hear what the lads had to say. When Sean speaks , he really makes me think. Excellent contributor and i feel like he's know his stuff.

Looking forward to the structure of the cub podcast. This area really worries me. Who's advising FSG, making the decisions etc. We need to get this right.

[aoaaron]

The truth is, this day and age, if Kenny does remain at the club it is probably sentimental reasons. That or an incomprehensible system where FSG are blamed for the direction of the club, Commoli for the transfers and our players for the playstyle/subtitutions/tactics/performances. Should FSG be responsible for EVERYTHING now? I know of quite a few managers who when given 50M would be happy to be left to their own devices yet people like to blame FSG for clearing out debt and providing us with money to buy players with little disruptive influence.

To a degree, I can understand keeping Kenny. However, I can only hope that sentiment is rewarded with a good platform for the future this summer as opposed to another 50M or so flushed down the drain.

Yes, other teams in the past have perservered with managers and they've come good but that is the past sadly. And if we're going to talk about time afforded, then surely Rafa who has never had a season as poor as Kennys, never had investment on the huge mangitude of Kennys.. or the support from the board.. or even I dare say it the support of the fans to the extent Kenny has... then he should have been given a fair chance.

FSG are in a tight position in making an appointment. Kenny's age is also not looking great for their "long term vision". Keeping a manger like Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas at the club for 2-3 years and letting him build a playstyle and philosophy makes sense but Kenny is getting on (okay hes not ancient but yeah..).

One cup in the bag which not have been rated highly alone under any of our last managers, an FA cup final which rather than bagging us a trophy showed us a glimpse of whats wrong and our worst league season to date... is that enough to save this team? Players such as Kuyt, Maxi, Miereles and Aquilani sacrifcied for Adam, Henderson (I rate him), Downing and Spearing. 

[Cork Red]

Great podcast. 

My first time listening, but I'll be downloading it every week from now on.

Very well thought out arguments both for and against retaining Kenny.

Refreshing to be able to hear a frank & open discussion of the issue from people who are obviously very knowledgeable and passionate about the club without the acrimony that you get on here and on other forums.

Whatever happens I just hope Kenny is treated with the dignity and respect that his service to the club, and to the city, deserves.

[barneystuta]

A great listen, as always. And good to hear a range of views.

Lets say for arguments sake, Kenny steps down. What will the remit be for the next manager? If they fail to achieve "Top 4" and CL qualification, then what? We jib them off, and bring in another? And the merry-go-around carries on?

We need a plan, and a model. Something which I think is lacking at the moment. We aren't going to "throw money" at it. We won't, for a range of reasons. So what do we need?

A progressive model, that will lay a blue print for the future. Look at Spurs as an "example". They have spent money, but they have sold some big players too. Promoted from within where they could, or signed some young "talent", where some paid off, some didn't.

2008 - They finished 11th
2009 - Finished 8th
2010 - Finsihed 4th

Before 2008, they had two 5th and a 9th place finish. Just look how long it took for them to "break" the top 4. They did it over time, signing, selling, and re-investing.

In order for us to follow a similar model, then we will need to prepare for some big "sales" in the summer, and the future, in order to try and build something new. Can I see this happening? No. The uproar of Liverpool becoming a "selling club" would not sit well with many fans.

Another way would be to, as Neil put it, bring in a manager who can drag us up to 4th place, ugly. I like it initially in theory, bring in a guy who has a proven track record of getting the best out of players, at the highest level. An older wiser guy. Someone who will stand no messing. Lets say this person then does get us 4th, then what? They are allowed to carry on? Or, do we then go "long term" at that point?

The question is really, what project is there at Liverpool, and what is the blue print of success. Once the owners decide that, then a decision can be made about Kenny or whoever.

[John C]

Another way would be to, as Neil put it, bring in a manager who can drag us up to 4th place, ugly. I like it initially in theory, bring in a guy who has a proven track record of getting the best out of players, at the highest level. An older wiser guy. Someone who will stand no messing. Lets say this person then does get us 4th, then what? They are allowed to carry on? Or, do we then go "long term" at that point?

I agree entirely with Neil on this, a few weeks ago he talked about someone making us taking "that leap", Neil is right, as a club we may have to change to catch up, the trouble is for some Liverpool supporters its either the Livepool way or no way at all. They'd scream about us winning ugly - I wouldn't, I don't to die neglected of a PL win but proud of tradition because this club may die before me.

[Chindits]

Just wish it was longer..

[smicer07]

The truth is, this day and age, if Kenny does remain at the club it is probably sentimental reasons. That or an incomprehensible system where FSG are blamed for the direction of the club, Commoli for the transfers and our players for the playstyle/subtitutions/tactics/performances. Should FSG be responsible for EVERYTHING now? I know of quite a few managers who when given 50M would be happy to be left to their own devices yet people like to blame FSG for clearing out debt and providing us with money to buy players with little disruptive influence.

To a degree, I can understand keeping Kenny. However, I can only hope that sentiment is rewarded with a good platform for the future this summer as opposed to another 50M or so flushed down the drain.

Yes, other teams in the past have perservered with managers and they've come good but that is the past sadly. And if we're going to talk about time afforded, then surely Rafa who has never had a season as poor as Kennys, never had investment on the huge mangitude of Kennys.. or the support from the board.. or even I dare say it the support of the fans to the extent Kenny has... then he should have been given a fair chance.

FSG are in a tight position in making an appointment. Kenny's age is also not looking great for their "long term vision". Keeping a manger like Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas at the club for 2-3 years and letting him build a playstyle and philosophy makes sense but Kenny is getting on (okay hes not ancient but yeah..).

One cup in the bag which not have been rated highly alone under any of our last managers, an FA cup final which rather than bagging us a trophy showed us a glimpse of whats wrong and our worst league season to date... is that enough to save this team? Players such as Kuyt, Maxi, Miereles and Aquilani sacrifcied for Adam, Henderson (I rate him), Downing and Spearing. 

Kenny won't stay for "sentimental reasons". The Americans are ruthless. Hopefully he'll stay because he's only been here for one full season and that's not enough for anyone to turn the club round. As for the podcast, I enjoy it most weeks but I thought there was quite a lot of bollocks spoken this week.

[DangerScouse]

Kenny won't stay for "sentimental reasons". The Americans are ruthless. Hopefully he'll stay because he's only been here for one full season and that's not enough for anyone to turn the club round. As for the podcast, I enjoy it most weeks but I thought there was quite a lot of bollocks spoken this week.

Any chance you'd elaborate on that mate? I'd be interested to see which bits you thought were bollox. Didn't agree with everything myself, infact I never do but I thought everyone put their points across both eloquently and fairly.

[rednich85]

Rafa Benitez, elephant in the room.

[koptician]

All your comments are so kind. Thank you.

Felt the emotion all around. Felt emotional myself listening to it. I am concerned about our future. Feels like we're a rudderless ship at the moment 

[koptician]

I agree entirely with Neil on this, a few weeks ago he talked about someone making us taking "that leap", Neil is right, as a club we may have to change to catch up, the trouble is for some Liverpool supporters its either the Livepool way or no way at all. They'd scream about us winning ugly - I wouldn't, I don't to die neglected of a PL win but proud of tradition because this club may die before me.

I don't remember people screaming when we made it to 2nd under Ged Houllier. And we did play rather ugly then

[decky]

Rafa Benitez, elephant in the room.

You could tell that several members of the panel want him back. Tough to hear the lack of faith in Kenny, even if it's hard to argue against the points being made

[Live in the Now]

Great podcast, best I've heard to be honest. Difficult to say it was enjoyable but it provoked a lot of emotions, and frankly it left me at a bit of a loss. What I can say is that I'm glad I'm not the one to make this decision because truly, I don't know what is best for the club and I don't know what I would do were it me.

Truly on the fence and agreed with a lot of what was said.

[rafathegaffa83]

Fantastic episode. Definitely a difficult topic, which many thoughts I can concur with.  Completely agree with the comments re: scouting and the "more of the same" approach re: dealing with injuries and a lack of experimentation and change in terms of tactics and personnel (i.e not drafting in Coates, Kelly etc) when things were not working, especially post-Arsenal fixture.

[Col]

The best point raised, for me, was Kris' question of whether, if Kenny did leave, we could trust the heirarchy above him to make the correct decisions going forward.

I'm not sure we could.

[aoaaron]

Kenny won't stay for "sentimental reasons". The Americans are ruthless. Hopefully he'll stay because he's only been here for one full season and that's not enough for anyone to turn the club round. As for the podcast, I enjoy it most weeks but I thought there was quite a lot of bollocks spoken this week.

For me, the club is not in turmoil like people say we are.

Apart from Hodgson's blip, an Alonso shaped hole, we were a very good side.

The only problems we had were financial and politically. FSG fixed all that business.

Kenny has put himself years back by making the sales he has and discarding/disrespecting the players he has. Suarez apart (the purchase I cannot credit to him), Kenny has not brought one of his perssonel in which has done a good job at all.

For me its sentiment and doing it the "liverpool way". I read a post from zeus which mentioned never walk alone and its definitley won me over but its sentiment in deed. The Americans aren't stupid. Kicking Kenny out and us flopping is bad for them. Letting Kenny have another stab at it and either succeeding = good or failing = then kicking him out is much better for them rather than having the fans at their throats.

[TLW 84]

The lad at the beginning needs to slow his speech down. Until he does that he's in room 101 with Jonathan Ross.

[Danyaals Kop]

The best point raised, for me, was Kris' question of whether, if Kenny did leave, we could trust the heirarchy above him to make the correct decisions going forward.

I'm not sure we could.

Exactly. Really fundamental point regarding the issue.

Compelling listen and probably best yet. Look forward to the one which will discuss the structure of the club.

[Brentie]

Fantastic. Very bold podcast and utter quality.

I want to point something out in terms of our lack of planning. The Lucas injury- a few people have used that as a stick to beat Kenny with, saying that we've had no plan and been unable to adapt since.

In 2005/06, we went into the season with Hyypia and Carra as center backs and noone else as cover bar Djimi Traore. Had any one of our center backs gotten a Lucas style injury, we would have been fucked beyond belief.

You cant plan for every eventuality, nor can you adapt if your backup player is a lot worse than your first 11 player. See how Rafa struggled with Torres injured and how Ngog was hoisted in way above his head several times.

[Grobbelrevell]

Rafa Benitez, elephant in the room.

And there's been a few of those this season on The Anfield Wrap.

On this weeks podcast though, just to add a voice to those stating what a good listen it was. Well reasoned arguments for both sides of what is admittedly a difficult and emotional discussion for a number of reasons. I can't remember who it was who said that they wake up one morning and want Kenny to stay and then the next morning they're not so sure and that's about where I am right now. Stability is key for me and I think without it you've no chance of building towards sustained success. Add to that the fact that - as many stated - I don't trust those in power to make the correct decision if we do decide to bring in a new man. So where does that leave us? Because this season has been very poor overall and there's no denying that and despite the bright spots that have undoubtedly been evident I can't claim to have full faith in Kenny's management either.

It's a very, very big call to make either way but one way or the other we have to get it right and I only hope that those making that decision manage to do that. I'd love to know who was advising them.

[Chivasino]

I know it's site policy, but why can't we have a thread discussing the same issue. It's the main talking point amongst all reds at the moment, yet we can't openly discuss it on here.

I can imagine it will be a nightmare for mods, but just ignoring it on one of the biggest LFC forums seems wrong.

Anyway, great podcast again. For the record, I'm stuck on the middle somewhere with regards to kenny.

[tax_man]

I think Neil's point:

'Kenny is the man to get us from 4th to 1st but is he the man to get us from 8th to 4th?'

Sums up exactly how I feel at the moment. He's a winner but is he a builder?

Edit: Awaiting the 'no, he's a football manager' reply

[Trada]

What happened to the King Kenny thread it seems to have disappeared?

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

What happened to the King Kenny thread it seems to have disappeared?

Indeed. That was respectful the last time I looked, though I have been working for an hour.

I'll take a guess and say someone started a slanging match.

[Zlenpasha]

Indeed. That was respectful the last time I looked, though I have been working for an hour.

I'll take a guess and say someone started a slanging match.

It was a very good thread, with many well argumented, well worded, insightful posts.
I hope they reopen it once some news of todays meeting leak out.

[scared_person]

Excellent podcast. Most thought provoking one yet, bar perhaps the Suarez/Evra one with Earl Jenkins.

I have my opinion but both sides put forward excellent, well reasoned points. Whatever decision is made there are pluses and minuses. They proved that this argument can be had with respect.

The issue of who replaces Kenny if he goes is a massive one, and I profoundly disagree with Nick(I think it was Nick!) who said getting rid is an absolute and not dependent on who is available. It was that line of thinking that saw Hodgson take the reins.

[Beav]

Amazing podcast as usual, but this one was the best yet imo. It's a very serious and difficult discussion and you lads went about it superbly, putting excellent points across for both sides, highlighting just how hard a decision on this is.

[koptician]

Exactly. Really fundamental point regarding the issue.

Compelling listen and probably best yet. Look forward to the one which will discuss the structure of the club.

That's what concerns me more than anything.

[INABITSKI]

Great work as ever and some interesting thoughts to keep you thinking over. My arse is firmly getting splinters at this point.

One thing I'm unsure about as I have heard just as many wishing for him to step down, as there are for him to stay on is the age group of these people.

Kenny for me was just a few years before my time. I just missed out on witnessing the great teams of the 80's and were just a kid when he stepped aside. For some they feel he is back to finish what he started, but what about those who are my age and younger who do not see any of this and do not know any different other than the name King Kenny.

Is he being given more leeway on the basis of the older generations thoughts and feelings towards him? Are the younger ones not patient enough to see that he could be the only one right now to drag us back up there after a very strange and roller coaster of a season. Or maybe the younger ones who want him gone (which does seem to be the under 30's), just feel the lack of direction and planning is not there and his glory years were in a different era and not for here and now in the more modern game?

Either way it's a cross roads we are at and whatever decision I hope it's for the best for the club to progress.

[red_mark1980]

Great work as ever and some interesting thoughts to keep you thinking over. My arse is firmly getting splinters at this point.

One thing I'm unsure about as I have heard just as many wishing for him to step down, as there are for him to stay on is the age group of these people.

Kenny for me was just a few years before my time. I just missed out on witnessing the great teams of the 80's and were just a kid when he stepped aside. For some they feel he is back to finish what he started, but what about those who are my age and younger who do not see any of this and do not know any different other than the name King Kenny.

Is he being given more leeway on the basis of the older generations thoughts and feelings towards him? Are the younger ones not patient enough to see that he could be the only one right now to drag us back up there after a very strange and roller coaster of a season. Or maybe the younger ones who want him gone (which does seem to be the under 30's), just feel the lack of direction and planning is not there and his glory years were in a different era and not for here and now in the more modern game?

Either way it's a cross roads we are at and whatever decision I hope it's for the best for the club to progress.

If someone can sit down and talk calmly about Kenny's failings I'll listen.

What is really irritating me is the frankly shocking disrespect shown by some to him. The lads on TAW have shown you can have a reasonable, sensible grown up discussion about it without some of the stuff I've seen this year. The final outcome being that most of us are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

If the unthinkable happens, the next appointment is key. So please - take some time Mr Henry & Mr Werner.


The idiots from outside of the club can honestly take a running jump. You don't have any input on this matter and are not even nearly qualified to pass judgement on what Liverpool fans want. Go and write about Ingurland and The Hodge.