Author Topic: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?  (Read 11057 times)

Offline RedMike-86-

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I asked, politely, at the weekend if it was a concern or not that we seem to be shipping three goals a game - http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=278933.0 - Curiously, the thread was locked.

Today, we shipped another three. With Reina, and Agger, and Johnson ... I am the opposite of doom and gloom as a person and a supporter, but surely we should be allowed to at least discuss this now?

We could fly out of the traps against Sunderland, and I KNOW "it's only pre-season" but is nobody else just a little bit concerned that we are shipping too many goals against average opposition? Pre-season has to be about getting ready for the season in playing terms, as well as fitness terms, does it not?

I am not overly worried, and as i say I am the opposite of doom and gloom, but surely there is a nagging doubt in the minds of others as well?




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Offline ShibbyLFC

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #1 on: August 1, 2011, 08:26:00 PM »
Played better defensively in the second half. In the first, none of our midfielders applied any pressure and we gave them all the time in the world to pick their passes, which in turn affected our back line's performance. Johnson was pretty poor today, and Carra got turned around a few times, but everything improved in the 2nd half.

Offline Jellies

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #2 on: August 1, 2011, 08:27:33 PM »
Our defense was fantastic in the first half of 2011. Best in PL if I remember correctly. Not much has changed since and I don't think preseason games count for much. I'm sure we'll get the answer by December. I doubt Steve Clarke transformed the best defense in PL into what would probably be the worst (if we keep the 3 goal conceding thing going).

I'm not concerned. Not yet at least.
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Offline RedMike-86-

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #3 on: August 1, 2011, 08:30:01 PM »
Thanks for your comments mate. I wasn't blaming the actual defenders by the way, more the overall defensive performances.

I was at work, so I didn't see the match today. I just think that as a player, you don't want to line up in the first match after shipping so many goals. I know the extra 20% that each player will surely (?) give when it matters will make a huge difference, but, maybe another 5% now with the other 15% on August 13th would be better! :p
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Offline RedMike-86-

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #4 on: August 1, 2011, 08:30:50 PM »
Our defense was fantastic in the first half of 2011. Best in PL if I remember correctly. Not much has changed since and I don't think preseason games count for much. I'm sure we'll get the answer by December. I doubt Steve Clarke transformed the best defense in PL into what would probably be the worst (if we keep the 3 goal conceding thing going).

I'm not concerned. Not yet at least.

Cool, thanks for that - made me feel a little bit more confident! ;)

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Offline Zlenpasha

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #5 on: August 1, 2011, 08:32:22 PM »
We also suffered defensively from not having our only proper DM, that is Lucas, around.

Offline Jellies

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #6 on: August 1, 2011, 08:33:48 PM »
We also suffered defensively from not having our only proper DM, that is Lucas, around.
I can't tell if you didn't watch the game or you just jumped on the bandwagon with both of your feet so fast that you hate everybody else than Lucas, but Jay Spearing had a very good game among a lot of underachievers today. Jay Spearing is a proper DM and has been that since Kenny took over.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #7 on: August 1, 2011, 08:36:29 PM »
We also suffered defensively from not having our only proper DM, that is Lucas, around.


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Offline skrtl

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #8 on: August 1, 2011, 08:37:29 PM »
Agger for back up striker??

Defence is a bit of a concern at mo, but reckon itll come together August 13th.
Im more concerned that if we are bringing in a LB or a CB that they come in soon so they can gel with the others

Offline vikingabroad

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #9 on: August 1, 2011, 08:45:29 PM »
We also suffered defensively from not having our only proper DM, that is Lucas, around.

Even with how well regarded he is on RAWK, I think we are underestimating how important he is, during the pre season. Spearing is just not strong enough there, regardless how good he was playing alongside Lucas. I still think we need to get a LB, and probably a CB, just based on Carras age, and Aggers injury history. But I can't believe that our defence is this bad when Sunderland comes to play.

Offline Zlenpasha

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #10 on: August 1, 2011, 08:49:44 PM »
I can't tell if you didn't watch the game or you just jumped on the bandwagon with both of your feet so fast that you hate everybody else than Lucas, but Jay Spearing had a very good game among a lot of underachievers today. Jay Spearing is a proper DM and has been that since Kenny took over.

I wasn't on about today actually. Just generally about our preseason games so far.
On your observations I think as good as Jay was since Kenny came he is still nowhere near as good as Lucas while playing DM. My opinion only, not to undermine Jay who I really appreciate as a player.

Offline Marty 85

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #11 on: August 1, 2011, 08:49:54 PM »
They're non competitive games. I don't give a monkeys and haven't watched one yet. I'll judge the team at the end of the season not before it's even began. 

We have teams giving their absolute all to beat "Liverpool" while we use them to generate sales and up fitness levels.

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #12 on: August 1, 2011, 08:59:40 PM »
I asked, politely, at the weekend if it was a concern or not that we seem to be shipping three goals a game - http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=278933.0 - Curiously, the thread was locked.

Today, we shipped another three. With Reina, and Agger, and Johnson ... I am the opposite of doom and gloom as a person and a supporter, but surely we should be allowed to at least discuss this now?

We could fly out of the traps against Sunderland, and I KNOW "it's only pre-season" but is nobody else just a little bit concerned that we are shipping too many goals against average opposition? Pre-season has to be about getting ready for the season in playing terms, as well as fitness terms, does it not?

I am not overly worried, and as i say I am the opposite of doom and gloom, but surely there is a nagging doubt in the minds of others as well?






There is a nagging doubt in people that should be stuck in a corner and laughed at.

Look at the defence we've fielded.

As Sesame Street would say "One of these things is not like the other. One of these things is not the same"

It's pre-season. I'm getting pissed off by how many bellends we have supporting us to be honest.
Football has reached the ninth gate of farce and pathetic, unbelievable trite nonsense. It's supposed to be a game and it's turned into pantomime, hype, quilts and bellends.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #13 on: August 1, 2011, 09:03:47 PM »
Played better defensively in the second half. In the first, none of our midfielders applied any pressure and we gave them all the time in the world to pick their passes, which in turn affected our back line's performance. Johnson was pretty poor today, and Carra got turned around a few times, but everything improved in the 2nd half.

Not sure I agree with that. In fact, I'd say that our midfielders were pressing up too high, considering we were playing a deep defensively line and this meant that there was an ocean of space in behind them, leaving the defence exposed. If we want to play a pressing game, we need to play a higher line, and Carragher needs to dropped, as his massive lack of pace is getting exposed.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #14 on: August 1, 2011, 09:05:40 PM »
There is a nagging doubt in people that should be stuck in a corner and laughed at.

Look at the defence we've fielded.

As Sesame Street would say "One of these things is not like the other. One of these things is not the same"

It's pre-season. I'm getting pissed off by how many bellends we have supporting us to be honest.

I'd say that defence had 3 out of 4 players in it that most of us would consider "first team", although admittedly Johnson looked a little off the pace. I don't think it makes you a bellend to be a little concerned about us conceding three goals a game against mostly poor opposition, pre season or not.

Offline Jellies

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #15 on: August 1, 2011, 09:06:06 PM »
I wasn't on about today actually. Just generally about our preseason games so far.
On your observations I think as good as Jay was since Kenny came he is still nowhere near as good as Lucas while playing DM. My opinion only, not to undermine Jay who I really appreciate as a player.
I agree. But I still reckon he's good enough. I think he can do everything Lucas does, just slightly worse. Given Lucas' injury record I think he's a suitable backup when Lucas' fatigue becomes a factor. He's also young and has a lot of time to improve. I rate Jay, and I used to really really not rate him.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #16 on: August 1, 2011, 09:06:31 PM »
In an ideal world we would sign a top class defender and a leftback before the window closes. And I think most of us called that before the window even opened.

Surely if we're bidding for Phil Jones, we know we are lacking another body at the back. I would happily ship out Kyriagkos or Skrtel in favour of a better defender - someone like Cahill or even a punt on someone like Hangelaand.

A defensive-minded midfielder would have been on my list before Charlie Adam. If Lucas is injured were a snookered in the middle. Already in pre-season we have lacked discipline in the middle, and someone who will get around the pitch and close down and press. If Lucas got injured for 3/4 months, I wouldn't be happy with Spearing as his replacement. As well as he did at times last season, he also looked poor. I don't feel he is first team quality, local lad or not.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #17 on: August 1, 2011, 09:06:39 PM »
I'd say that defence had 3 out of 4 players in it that most of us would consider "first team", although admittedly Johnson looked a little off the pace. I don't think it makes you a bellend to be a little concerned about us conceding three goals a game against mostly poor opposition, pre season or not.

Right. How many times did that defence that featured tonight (Including the keeper) play together before today in Pre-Season?
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Offline RedMike-86-

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #18 on: August 1, 2011, 09:07:16 PM »
They're non competitive games. I don't give a monkeys and haven't watched one yet. I'll judge the team at the end of the season not before it's even began. 

We have teams giving their absolute all to beat "Liverpool" while we use them to generate sales and up fitness levels.


I am not judging either by the way :)

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #19 on: August 1, 2011, 09:09:41 PM »
We're going to be a more open and adventurous team under Kenny than in the last 10 years or so. It would not surprise me if we leaked a few goals away from home next season, regardless of what happens pre-season.

That said, look at how well we defended as a team away at Arsenal, Utd (FA Cup) and Chelsea last season. Not bad for a crop of apparent duffers who need replacing because they didn't keep clean sheets in pre-season....

Offline Raoul Duke

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #20 on: August 1, 2011, 09:11:35 PM »
Defending has a lot to do with fitness - positioning and reading the game are also very important, but a lack of fitness shows. Especially when a high line is played, there are a minimal amount of holding midfielders, and fullbacks (and even centre backs, if your name is Danny Agger) are pushing on all the way up the pitch. The players don't look sharp because they don't look fully match fit - they are unable to recover rapidly when caught out of possession, and are impeded and fatigued by frequent losses of the ball like in the first half.

Johnson was playing his first full match of the preseason, and was obviously caught out on several occasions. Robinson, Flanagan and Kelly will find it tough to get up to the required pace of the game anyway, and are also lacking match fitness. Agger and Carragher missed a few important tackles and interceptions, though that is more to do with concentration and being up to speed mentally than an issue physically.
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Offline Camarero25

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #21 on: August 1, 2011, 09:13:55 PM »
Right. How many times did that defence that featured tonight (Including the keeper) play together before today in Pre-Season?

Fair point, but the fact is we've only got one friendly game left. So if the excuse is that they haven't played much together then they haven't got much time before the season starts, so it's a little worrying. The fact is that a close to first choice defence conceded three goals against a side who've been struggling to score in the Norwegian league. Does that not worry you even in the slightest?

Offline mercurial

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #22 on: August 1, 2011, 09:15:43 PM »
A pre-season cannot decide the league or even the last 10 games of the season. Its 38 games over 9 months. A midfield of Adam, Henderson and Spearing. They never played with each other before except training, that is precisely why the pre-season is there. Half the people out here seem to be doomsayers to be honest. Today was not our best and wasn't supposed to be. Whether Aquilani stays or goes, he is a good player, if it was just a question of skill he is up there with the 20m worth ones. Same goes with Agger. Even if we do get off to a slow start, the season is not lost. We are adding at least 4-5 players to our first team. It will be anything between 2-4 months before the team really starts to integrate all of them seamlessly. Top 4 definitely looks likely this year.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #23 on: August 1, 2011, 09:16:33 PM »
Fair point, but the fact is we've only got one friendly game left. So if the excuse is that they haven't played much together then they haven't got much time before the season starts, so it's a little worrying. The fact is that a close to first choice defence conceded three goals against a side who've been struggling to score in the Norwegian league. Does that not worry you even in the slightest?

Why is it worrying? You may note they played quite a lot together over previous seasons.
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Offline Camarero25

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #24 on: August 1, 2011, 09:20:11 PM »
Why is it worrying? You may note they played quite a lot together over previous seasons.

Yeah but your point was that they haven't played together in this pre season, so I was responding to that.

Offline Steve Funn

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #25 on: August 1, 2011, 09:21:42 PM »
If it was normal for teams that want to be challenging for the title to be playing and defending well in pre season then it might be time to get worried, until that day though

Offline RedMike-86-

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #26 on: August 1, 2011, 09:22:41 PM »
There is a nagging doubt in people that should be stuck in a corner and laughed at.

Look at the defence we've fielded.

As Sesame Street would say "One of these things is not like the other. One of these things is not the same"

It's pre-season. I'm getting pissed off by how many bellends we have supporting us to be honest.

Well that was helpful, thanks very much!

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Offline Benimar Col

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #27 on: August 1, 2011, 09:24:21 PM »
without sounding brutal, trying to be realistic though,  we need a couple of experienced decent players if we are to push to CL and above

Carragher - running out of legs and getting slower
Skyrtel -  never been convincing in my opinion
Agger - flatters to decieve, injury prone, but most skillfull cenre half in the country in my opinion
Kyrgiakos - running out of legs and gets himself exposed to often
Kelly - still learning his trade

the centre half position is a serious concern to me


Johnson - needs a consistant season
Robinson & Flanagan - still learning their trade
Insua - not good enough
Aurelio - injury prone

the full back positions are also of concern, reliant on youth is dangerous
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #28 on: August 1, 2011, 09:24:52 PM »
Flannagan came on and looked very, very good today. He really is a bright prospect. He was getting forward and was positioning himself well for a pass move on the left hand side.

If you chop and change the side, you're never gonna be settled and we haven't looked settled. Even in a 7 a side at amateur level, if you change the team constantly the performance alters.

I'm not too worried. As someone has already said, they're for sales and fitness. We'll be fine come next Saturday.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #29 on: August 1, 2011, 09:26:16 PM »
Never nice to let in goals. However I won't be worried until it happens in the league. Only then is it cause for concern.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #30 on: August 1, 2011, 09:26:57 PM »
it's a cliche but pre-season really does mean nothing. if we're still shipping 3 in at the end of August, it might be time to start worrying.

one issue of concern though is that left back and centre back were priorities for many people at the start of the summer, myself included. bit disappointing this hasn't been addressed yet, but there's a week and a bit to go yet.
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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #31 on: August 1, 2011, 09:27:40 PM »
Apart from the need for a starting LB and/or CB  I'm mostly worried about adequate cover for Lucas. If he gets injured I'll be shitting bricks at the thought of having only Spearing as a holding midfielder for 5+ consecutive games
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Offline RedMike-86-

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #32 on: August 1, 2011, 09:28:29 PM »
Never nice to let in goals. However I won't be worried until it happens in the league. Only then is it cause for concern.

But my question would be, if these pre-season games are designed to get us ready for the league, then, well, are we ready? ;)

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Offline GhanselLFC

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #33 on: August 1, 2011, 09:29:59 PM »
the return of lucas will cure our problems at the back

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #34 on: August 1, 2011, 09:32:34 PM »
I was surprised Robinson started over Flanno and Kelly tonight.

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #35 on: August 1, 2011, 09:36:53 PM »
I was surprised Robinson started over Flanno and Kelly tonight.
He's a better left back and they played a fuller stint on Thursday.

Offline Snoopy29

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #36 on: August 1, 2011, 09:37:25 PM »
I'd say that defence had 3 out of 4 players in it that most of us would consider "first team", although admittedly Johnson looked a little off the pace. I don't think it makes you a bellend to be a little concerned about us conceding three goals a game against mostly poor opposition, pre season or not.

Exactly.

there's a balance between being concerned and calling people bellends because they are concerned.

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #37 on: August 1, 2011, 09:38:16 PM »
But my question would be, if these pre-season games are designed to get us ready for the league, then, well, are we ready? ;)


Not yet, but we have another 10 days preparations yet. Injuries to Johnson/Agger/Skrtel have disrupted our defensive plans and it was clear that Johnson was struggling for sharpness today. However, that will come, he is a quality player and a fit lad.

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #38 on: August 1, 2011, 09:38:35 PM »
I think this is a justifiable query to raise and I'd be surprised if we didn't sign a centre-back before the window shuts.

Offline jdpapa3

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Re: Are we allowed to talk about our pre-season defensive showing yet?
« Reply #39 on: August 1, 2011, 09:39:09 PM »
To be fair, I saw a ton of people writing Carra off before last season as well and saying that it was time to leave him off of the starting XI and he ended up being really, really good last season. There's a pretty good chance that he has this season preparation down to a science at this point and will know just how to get himself ready for the opener.

I am a little tiny bit worried about the defense, but it's mostly down to Johnson, Skrtel, and Agger's fitness and not really the quality of the players that will actually get gametime. So many goals have been leaked with Danny Wilson and Soto types back there or very late in the game and it doesn't bother me too much.

It's often said that the best defense is a good offense and I think we've seen that at points of the preseason with a strong side out there actually dictating the game. Having Poulsen and Cole out there mucking up our attack and turning the ball over is going to leave the defense in for a long game.