Topic: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool

[John C]

It is kind of a strange thing to say, when you're talking about a player's ability. I'd agree that to become a "legendary" player you need to win stuff. Legendary in the sense that people will be talking about and comparing other players to you once you've finished playing (like Makelele or Zidane). However, if we're talking about pure ability trophies don't matter that much. Torres has won fuck all with us, but he was still one of our most exciting strikers (if not the best) in the past decade. If Lucas keeps on going like that, sooner rather than later he'll win stuff...

I never said anything about legendary - you did. What's Torres got to do with the price of bread?
Its not my fault if you don't understand the how a respected player holding silverware for us adds to their presence and stature, however they are rated (and I'm not talking Jimmy Traoré here).
You go on to state that you think he'll win something sooner or later but fail to see how a player like him with a trophy adds to his wall of fame. Strange.

[ThisisAnfield96]

I'm sorry but after THE GENERAL'S boss game at Goodison and Anderson's basirish game for United I had to take a little peak at the Anderson thread and saw this:
Andersoniesta completed 76 [seventy-six] passes, also at 86%. I'll be impressed if any other players outside of Barca bested that this weekend.

[Sangria]

I never said anything about legendary - you did. What's Torres got to do with the price of bread?
Its not my fault if you don't understand the how a respected player holding silverware for us adds to their presence and stature, however they are rated (and I'm not talking Jimmy Traoré here).
You go on to state that you think he'll win something sooner or later but fail to see how a player like him with a trophy adds to his wall of fame. Strange.

For all my appreciation of Lucas, the difference is this. Lucas without a trophy to his name is part of Liverpool's team. Lucas with a trophy to his name is part of Liverpool's history.

[ThisisAnfield96]

Hey? WTF? who cares about him?

THE GENERAL

[CorKopite]

I'm sorry but after THE GENERAL'S boss game at Goodison and Anderson's basirish game for United I had to take a little peak at the Anderson thread and saw this:
Andersoniesta completed 76 [seventy-six] passes, also at 86%. I'll be impressed if any other players outside of Barca bested that this weekend.

Just goes to show you stats can be misleading. Anderson was absoloutely shite against Norwich. Lucas controlled the play at Goodison. Lucas is a much better player, its clear as daylight.

[El Campeador]

The General vs. Everton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K_7oPiym8c

[Number 7]

To think a few years ago this man was booed when he was being brought on for Alonso. How times change.

He was absolutely brilliant yesterday.

[1021]

Hey El C, are you suggesting that 'The General' might be an appropriate nickname for Lucas?

[Rotation]

So? who cares?

The General is Lucas' new nickname...

[new-red]

Hey El C, are you suggesting that 'The General' might be an appropriate nickname for Lucas?

The general, eh? intriguing name. I see lucas as more like the crazy, green legions from LOTR. Just an irresistible force in midfield.

On a different note, I find it very interesting that he can double his pass attempts in for the whole game in 20 minutes. And 50 passes is a lot considering he has many games where that is his total. We were definitely far more in control when Stevie came on and I think it was due to the concerted effort to keep the ball on the deck and work the attack more patiently.

It will be interesting to see how Kenny sets up against united. Will he play gerrard, adam, and lucas in a midfield 3 or will he push Gerrard out wide or in the hole. I think Gerrard's presence in midfield might have a beneficial restraining effect on Adam's passing which will have us playing shorter passes, with tempo.

Also, playing Lucas with Adam in a flat midfield 4 constrains Lucas to one half of midfield leaving Adam responsible for the other half but every team is finding it far too easy to bypass our midfield and get in behind the CMs.

I really believe that playing Lucas at the base of midfield triangle will stop teams from overrunning the midfield because Lucas will be able to use his anticipation and positioning to close down passing lanes and spaces between the defense and midfield that would previously be exploited. Also, it would probably lessen the running that Lucas has to do covering for Adam in defense.

[El Campeador]

The General is Lucas' new nickname...

[saintslfc13]

The General is Lucas' new nickname...

I think he was saying "who cares what Anderson did for the mancs." In reality it should be none of us except when we play them. The mancs have their own forums and we don't need to compare ourselves to them except when we play them. The only time we need to worry about Anderson is when he plays against us or if we're watching brazil play because of Lucas and he's in the team as well.

[Liverbird 2010]

I think he was saying "who cares what Anderson did for the mancs."

Yes thats what I meant, dont care about Anderson or his stats for that matter.

[doikc]

I watched the match again today, and the one thing amongst many that struck me about General Leiva was that after Gerrard came on, Lucas was still dictating play.

I was hoping for that. He needs to feel that its HIS midfield. Long may it continue

[leivapool]

The general, eh? intriguing name. I see lucas as more like the crazy, green legions from LOTR. Just an irresistible force in midfield.

On a different note, I find it very interesting that he can double his pass attempts in for the whole game in 20 minutes. And 50 passes is a lot considering he has many games where that is his total. We were definitely far more in control when Stevie came on and I think it was due to the concerted effort to keep the ball on the deck and work the attack more patiently.

It will be interesting to see how Kenny sets up against united. Will he play gerrard, adam, and lucas in a midfield 3 or will he push Gerrard out wide or in the hole. I think Gerrard's presence in midfield might have a beneficial restraining effect on Adam's passing which will have us playing shorter passes, with tempo.

Also, playing Lucas with Adam in a flat midfield 4 constrains Lucas to one half of midfield leaving Adam responsible for the other half but every team is finding it far too easy to bypass our midfield and get in behind the CMs.

I really believe that playing Lucas at the base of midfield triangle will stop teams from overrunning the midfield because Lucas will be able to use his anticipation and positioning to close down passing lanes and spaces between the defense and midfield that would previously be exploited. Also, it would probably lessen the running that Lucas has to do covering for Adam in defense.

The difference in the Everton game once Lucas was partnered with another central midfielder who wanted to keep the ball and play pass and move was night and day, hence the pass stats  I re-watched the game and was left with the question, has Adam ever played in a  central midfield pair before, or has he always played with 2 players to cover him?

[Ycuzz]

Love that tube link up there.

His message to the opposition, every single game; "what the fuck are you doing on our side of the pitch? Here, let me take that ball from you, now, get the fuck out."

And I like that nickname: The General. Yes indeed.

Oh, and a-fucking-hem:

Lucas will stand out as one of the best buys, ever. That boys got potential!

And, no. I don't care. I'm gonna bang that drum untill ears bleed.

[Hank Scorpio]

One thing I did notice was Lucas's passing today - besides the 92% pass completion.

Up until Adam went off on 67 minutes, Lucas made 24 passes, 23 successful.  Once Adam was replaced by Gerrard in the next 21 minutes that Lucas was in central midfield with Gerrard, Lucas made 51 passes, 45 successful.  Thats some major difference.  Now I know Everton were getting tired, but 24 passes in 67 minutes with Adam, compared to 51 passes in 21 minutes with Gerrard is a quite remarkable difference.  1/3rd of the time on the pitch with Gerrard, more than twice the amount of passes.  It's also the time we scored both of our goals.  Co-incidence?

I think the pass completion may be due to the fact that after the 1st goal we were trying to retain possession and Lucas appeared to be the hub, passing to the defenders, midfielders and getting it back etc.

[steveeastend]

The General vs. Everton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K_7oPiym8c

That´s just great!

[bravarado7]

I think the pass completion may be due to the fact that after the 1st goal we were trying to retain possession and Lucas appeared to be the hub, passing to the defenders, midfielders and getting it back etc.

Isnt that the best way to win matches? Whats the point in going for a goal and losing posession time n again. I would much rather have posession and build things quietly if it means passing the ball on the deck and being a little patient. Atleast there is a lot of insurance covered in that method...

[koolkamal]

One thing I did notice was Lucas's passing today - besides the 92% pass completion.

Up until Adam went off on 67 minutes, Lucas made 24 passes, 23 successful.  Once Adam was replaced by Gerrard in the next 21 minutes that Lucas was in central midfield with Gerrard, Lucas made 51 passes, 45 successful.  Thats some major difference.  Now I know Everton were getting tired, but 24 passes in 67 minutes with Adam, compared to 51 passes in 21 minutes with Gerrard is a quite remarkable difference.  1/3rd of the time on the pitch with Gerrard, more than twice the amount of passes.  It's also the time we scored both of our goals.  Co-incidence?

That stat is not correct actually. It's the other way round. Up to when Adam was subbed off Lucas made 51 passes with 45 successful and once Adam was subbed off for Gerrard in the center with Lucas, Lucas made 24 passes with 23 successful.

[Red number seven]

Like Lucas, always have. He has the wonderfully understated hallmarks of a true Liverpool player.

From the very first I admired his calm, his touch, his desire to make himself available to receive and pass the ball on the deck, his reading of the situation and most of all his maturity to, at a young age in a foreign country, block out his own fans booing him and still not shirk. Quite a thing that. If you can stand that the troglodytes from the Gwladys baying for your blood won't even register, and you will keep your head whilst all about...

I said some time ago that to get to the next level Lucas had to do one of two things. Either start to dominate games rather than merely link up, or to start to provide goal threat by scoring or providing killer, gamebreaking "assist" passes on a regular basis. I think he is now doing the former which makes him, in my opinion, the best holding midfielder in the league.

Were he to start to deliver more in a positive sense - and whilst I think that might be too much to ask, I do believe he's capable - he would be one of the top midfielders in Europe.

Quite something for a man once booed by his own fans.

[CHOPPER]

Were he to start to deliver more in a positive sense - and whilst I think that might be too much to ask, I do believe he's capable - he would be one of the top midfielders in Europe.

Sorely lacking in this area. The next step perhaps. If he can at all.

[bleedsred1978]

I really wish Adam would just give the ball back to Lucas a bit more instead of trying to force the play too early.

Just keep recycling the ball Charlie and the gaps will come.

[Hank Scorpio]

Sorely lacking in this area. The next step perhaps. If he can at all.

Think he has the intelligence to make those ghost runs into the box and the technique to finish moves but sadly has so far frozen in front of goal most times.  In Benitez's final season he could've scored about 4-5 headers in the opening 10 games but kept fluffing it at the end.  Could be the next step as you say.

[Red number seven]

Sorely lacking in this area. The next step perhaps. If he can at all.

Yeah, but so have many other top, top midfielders.

Neither Hamann, Mascherano nor Alonso were great for us in terms of goals/assists, although Alonso was more than capable when he was given a more expansive role in the Spanish national side. Roy Keane scored only 8 goals in his last 6 seasons at United, but he was still a dominant presence and a truly great midfielder (as well as a vicious, evil bastard). Claude Makelele scored 4 goals in nearly 350 appearances from when he started at Madrid until his retirement and has an entire position named after him.

So what we are asking is for Lucas to be that sort of player and score/ make goals, which is a massive ask, and I wonder if it's unfair to expect?

Not that I don't believe Lucas has a killer, slide rule pass in his armoury, but the question is whether he is being asked to get forwrad often enough to use it?

[Pistolero]

Yeah, but so have many other top, top midfielders.

Neither Mascherano nor Alonso were great for us in terms of goals/assists,

can only assume you're referring to the racing driver....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz7BGco-tWI&feature=related

[leivapool]

That stat is not correct actually. It's the other way round. Up to when Adam was subbed off Lucas made 51 passes with 45 successful and once Adam was subbed off for Gerrard in the center with Lucas, Lucas made 24 passes with 23 successful.

Y'know, I rewatched this match last night , and I kept thinking, "Lucas has made more than 24 passes in the 67 minutes, he's had alot of the ball!!"  Thanks for pointing that out, I guess chalkboards are too complicated for me

[Hazell]

Sorely lacking in this area. The next step perhaps. If he can at all.

Red Number Seven summed it up. Why does he need to? Looking at other comparable midfielders, should we really expect him to? It'd be great if he could score more and get more assists - part of it his his own fault due to poor finishing/composure in front of goal but part of it is the way we play, with the defence being so deep and Adam beside him. Once Gerrard comes back, he might get more opportunities but he performs his role extremely well and to expect him to do it just as well and get those goals/assists is a little unfair on him.

[stevedo]

The General vs. Everton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K_7oPiym8c

Thanks for that, forgot how many headers he won. 

[CHOPPER]

Think he has the intelligence to make those ghost runs into the box and the technique to finish moves but sadly has so far frozen in front of goal most times.  In Benitez's final season he could've scored about 4-5 headers in the opening 10 games but kept fluffing it at the end.  Could be the next step as you say.

He does get into some good positions yet seems to (for whatever reason) fluff it. In his development and lets be honest, he is still developing, the next stage is to bridge that gap and start contributing at the other end, you do that and you become the all-rounder. Even if it was just assists, it's still offering that bit more, which at the minute he isn't and if he you could ask him himself I dare say he wants to improve on that side of his game himself.

[CHOPPER]

Yeah, but so have many other top, top midfielders.

Neither Hamann, Mascherano nor Alonso were great for us in terms of goals/assists, although Alonso was more than capable when he was given a more expansive role in the Spanish national side. Roy Keane scored only 8 goals in his last 6 seasons at United, but he was still a dominant presence and a truly great midfielder (as well as a vicious, evil bastard). Claude Makelele scored 4 goals in nearly 350 appearances from when he started at Madrid until his retirement and has an entire position named after him.

So what we are asking is for Lucas to be that sort of player and score/ make goals, which is a massive ask, and I wonder if it's unfair to expect?

Not that I don't believe Lucas has a killer, slide rule pass in his armoury, but the question is whether he is being asked to get forwrad often enough to use it?

In all honestly I don't believe you or I should draw comparisons, he isn't any of them players nor is he a Gerrard, he's a Lucas, a player in his own right, that has to improve on the offensive side to his game, if he doesn't he'll regress or become stagnant in that role. I'd prefer he had more strings to his bow than just being able to get stuck in and break down play. It's his next stage of development and it has to happen.

[CHOPPER]

Red Number Seven summed it up. Why does he need to? Looking at other comparable midfielders, should we really expect him to? It'd be great if he could score more and get more assists - part of it his his own fault due to poor finishing/composure in front of goal but part of it is the way we play, with the defence being so deep and Adam beside him. Once Gerrard comes back, he might get more opportunities but he performs his role extremely well and to expect him to do it just as well and get those goals/assists is a little unfair on him.

He needs to because he has to, it's folly to think that he may not need to offer more to the team, they all can, they have to keep improving individually and collectively. We do that, and we'll be laughing, sit back and think that we/they have arrived and we'll be kidding ourselves.
It's not about being fair, it's about being realistic, realistic that the lad still needs to improve and I bet he'd say the same as well.

[leivapool]

No doubt Lucas would admit he would like to improve this side of his game. 

What is hugely frustrating though is the amount of times Lucas ghosts in to the box and the ball never reaches him, it happens almost every game. For one reason or another, he is either ignored by his team mates, or as more usually happens, they try to pass to him and the pass is too poor - Suarez has been quite guilty here.  For Lucas to be more successful in attack his team mates need to provide accurate passes and when they do Lucas must finish them more clinically. 

I suspect he only needs to get one, and more goals will then come!

[Hazell]

He needs to because he has to, it's folly to think that he may not need to offer more to the team, they all can, they have to keep improving individually and collectively. We do that, and we'll be laughing, sit back and think that we/they have arrived and we'll be kidding ourselves.
It's not about being fair, it's about being realistic, realistic that the lad still needs to improve and I bet he'd say the same as well.

Of course he can improve, every player can. I've not said he can't or doesn't need to have I? Is that simply measured in goals/assists though? I'd love him to become more involved in our attacking play, it doesn't matter much if he grabs the assist for a goal as long as he contributes to it - at present, in his role and how we play, he's going to find it difficult to do it and still perform how he has been. He's already heavily involved even though it may not seem like it but there's obviously more to come. And not only are we expecting him to control the midfield and be one of our most consistent players, and one of the best, we expect him to do a lot at the other end? Do we expect that from our other players? Or comparable players at other clubs? I hope he does grab more goals and that's partly down to him but I don't think doing that alone and at the expense of team (which at present, seems the likely way) will necessarily elevate him to the 'next level'.

[davidg]

playing well, but they had 10 men for 70 mins so there was loads of time and space for our midfield to look boss.

[Hank Scorpio]

playing well, but they had 10 men for 70 mins so there was loads of time and space for our midfield to look boss.

Plus it was only Everton.

[leivapool]

playing well, but they had 10 men for 70 mins so there was loads of time and space for our midfield to look boss.

Did all of our midfielders look boss then?

[impz]

if a player says he doesn't have to improve any part of his game said player would be lying through his teeth

[scatman]

great compilation, he always does that Afroboy in, even in the air. Love how he robbed him in the first half near our goal line

[simesy]

Did all of our midfielders look boss then?

Adam and downing were certainly not at their best,kuyt was good but not boss.Doesnt matter if the opposition is down to ten men you've still got to make the extra man count.How many times have we seen teams with ten men hold out for a result.