Topic: Reds agree Downing fee

[rossipersiempre]

Good job they both play for us! Trust us to make an argument out of having two very good free kick takers.

Most knowledgable fans around - my arse!

Biggest fucking moaners around.

We just aspire to loftier standards that's all

[main-stand-molby]

You know what I find wrong with that whole theory of yours?

That you actually get FK's against park the bus teams. You don't, they just grind you down, ten men behind the ball, reducing you to taking pot shots or trying to Arsenal the ball over the line.

Against such teams, you need a Garcia, a Suarez, an Aquilani. A bit of creative and unpredictable genius. Technique and movement. Not a slightly chunky Scot with a decent left peg. As I said previously, we have a clutch of players who can score from FKs. I imagine Adam was signed to provide more of a midfield playmaker role (a good level or two below Xabi/Pirlo but I digress).

or you mix it with a big guy up front who attracts several players, and you have predators who can pick up the second ball.  If you then have deeper players who can hit quality balls for the big guy then even better.   If you then have a skillful unpredictable player then, well, you have most bases covered. Carroll, Kuyt (you'll like that one), Downing, Adam, Suarez.  So the teams that park the bus cant sit back anymore as it doesnt work, so they push up playing it tight.  You then need players who can play over the top, midfielders who can break through past the front line and crucially players who can time the pass over the back.  Henderson, Gerrard, Suarez.  Sounds like a team for most scenarios.

[sattapaal]

Well, it takes us a step closer to not having Dirk as a nailed on first 11 player doesn't it?

Suarez, Henderson, Downing, Maxi, Kuyt will all fight to play wing, with 2 of them playing support striker should we need it.

But by the looks of things, we'll be playing a 4-5-1/4-3-3. If we say Carroll is now a nailed on first 11 player, we're likely to see Suarez start from any of the wing positions and play a free role, with Downing, Henderson, Maxi or Kuyt taking that final wing-forward/midfielder (whatever you want to call it) position.

We have good depth now.

[rossipersiempre]

or you mix it with a big guy up front who attracts several players, and you have predators who can pick up the second ball.  If you then have deeper players who can hit quality balls for the big guy then even better.   If you then have a skillful unpredictable player then, well, you have most bases covered. Carroll, Kuyt (you'll like that one), Downing, Adam, Suarez.  So the teams that park the bus cant sit back anymore as it doesnt work, so they push up playing it tight.  You then need players who can play over the top, midfielders who can break through past the front line and crucially players who can time the pass over the back.  Henderson, Gerrard, Suarez.  Sounds like a team for most scenarios.

Ha ha, can I wheel out my old "trying to pick a lock with a wet fish" analogy? Oh go on, please...

[hugoboss]

Off the top of my head, Portsmouth, Chelsea and Man Utd. That's more than 2.

Did he score a FK against Pompey?

[rossipersiempre]

Well, it takes us a step closer to not having Dirk as a nailed on first 11 player doesn't it?

Stop teasing you bastard.

[rossipersiempre]

Did he score a FK against Pompey?

Indirect, slammed a laser-guided precision daisy cutter into the corner through more legs than a centipede.

[mbutu]

I'm chuffed as a badger !

Now over to the defenders...

[hugoboss]

You know what I find wrong with that whole theory of yours?

That you actually get FK's against park the bus teams. You don't, they just grind you down, ten men behind the ball, reducing you to taking pot shots or trying to Arsenal the ball over the line.

Against such teams, you need a Garcia, a Suarez, an Aquilani. A bit of creative and unpredictable genius. Technique and movement. Not a slightly chunky Scot with a decent left peg. As I said previously, we have a clutch of players who can score from FKs. I imagine Adam was signed to provide more of a midfield playmaker role (a good level or two below Xabi/Pirlo but I digress).

10 men defending in from of their post, Suarez, Kuyt, Gerrard or Downing with the ball and trying to go past one or two players, I can see loads of FKs there. What's more is we will look to win FKs against such teams

[mactifosi]

How have Utd and Chelsea being breaking down these teams?
How did we do it a few seasons back?

1. By lobbing balls into box from wide positions.
2. Clever passes from the centre.


Hmmmm we signed Downing and Adam.

[Hank Scorpio]

Ignore the transfer fee and consider the player in the context of our squad.

Good signing?

[rossipersiempre]

I'm chuffed as a badger !

Me too...

[Ikki.Fenikkusu]

Getting away from the price argument and onto where he might suit us best; I reckon Downing looks much more menacing when playing on the right and cutting in. Some games he's looked pure evil and he has a great knack of running at angles uncomfortable to defenders.

[Puskas]

Well, firstly, I haven't said we got done because of the Young transfer. But as a comparison it does show that we are paying more for an inferior player. I am pretty sure 90% of people would take Young for 16.5 than Downing for 20.

And frankly, I don't put them in the same bracket - Young is distinctly better IMO. Scores at a rate double to Downing whilst providing more or less the same amount of assists , and is a year younger. Both though, are overrated and overpaid for - Young just slightly less so.

This is the problem with people just looking at a fee, without context.  The missing context in this case was the length remaining on their respective contracts - Young's only had 1 year left and Downing's 2.  If they both had had the same amount of time left on their contracts then it would be fair comparing the prices directly.  But they didn't, so it isn't.  It's not a valid comparison.   

If Downing only had a year left on his contract he'd be worth more like 10-12m rather than 18-20m. 

In other words - if you take the contractual situation into account Young cost more than Downing did.  Which matches your assessment of the respective player's abilities. 

[hugoboss]

Suarez didn't monoplise free kicks and it doesn't matter why Aurelio he didn't, the fact is he didn't - we've had and Gerrard, Agger, Meireles and Alonso as well as Suarez who've taken free kicks and corners for us in recent years as opposed to Adam, who's taken the majority for Blackpool.

Suarez did, FKs which were direct at goal have been taken by Suarez since he came and I believe the only other players to try were Aurelio and Maxi and it does say alot that he was able to do this obviously his fellow players see what he can do and know he would likely have a better chance of scoring than they would. Alonso was many things but a dead ball specialist wasn't one of them

[rossipersiempre]

Ignore the transfer fee and consider the player in the context of our squad.

Good signing?

Don't think anyone questions that to be honest. He plugs a gap on the left, just as Riera did for a time.

[Kopite Downunder]

and whilst there are always exceptions and players that hit the ground running wherever they play, there are plenty more that take time and too many of these at once will risk a slow start.

when i said i odnt understand this signing it was not literally meant to be why are we signing a winger. I know that we need a winger and its needed to play a particular formation what ever that may be. I dont understand why it is stewart downing , because he has premiership experience so had paul konchecky and plenty others at other clubs. For 20 million im sorry it would have been better spent on a youngster with bags of potential or a decent foreigner. Its daylight robbery and alot of our fan base are ecstatic because we are spending money again after those two idiots have left, dont spend for the sake of spending ala carroll and now downing. FSG said we would not be held to ransom for transfers and yet this is the 3rd one this year so far. Maybe this will put things is perspective...SUAREZ 22 mil Downing 20 mil, other teams are making marquee signings like modric and sneider for maybe 7 to ten million more than we paying for STEWART DOWNING WTF

[Hazell]

Suarez did, FKs which were direct at goal have been taken by Suarez since he came and I believe the only other players to try were Aurelio and Maxi and it does say alot that he was able to do this obviously his fellow players see what he can do and know he would likely have a better chance of scoring than they would. Alonso was many things but a dead ball specialist wasn't one of them

Gerrard also took them when he played. As for Alonso, hmmm...

[hugoboss]

You continue digging that hole you've climbed into...

Explain, then if you curl the ball without enough pace the Gk will save it. If you more power and not enough dip or curve on it it will most likely go wide

[StevieF]

when i said i odnt understand this signing it was not literally meant to be why are we signing a winger. I know that we need a winger and its needed to play a particular formation what ever that may be. I dont understand why it is stewart downing , because he has premiership experience so had paul konchecky and plenty others at other clubs. For 20 million im sorry it would have been better spent on a youngster with bags of potential or a decent foreigner. Its daylight robbery and alot of our fan base are ecstatic because we are spending money again after those two idiots have left, dont spend for the sake of spending ala carroll and now downing. FSG said we would not be held to ransom for transfers and yet this is the 3rd one this year so far. Maybe this will put things is perspective...SUAREZ 22 mil Downing 20 mil, other teams are making marquee signings like modric and sneider for maybe 7 to ten million more than we paying for STEWART DOWNING WTF

Good point, we should go out and sign Modric and Sneijder right now.  It's as simple as that.

[Grobbelrevell]

Following on from the fee being agreed for Downing last night, I asked a friend of mine who happens to be a Villa fan, for his opinion on both Young and Downing and who he believed was the better of the two. This was his reply anyway:

Both good players but last season, Downing. Young kind of annoyed me at times, some of his corners, crosses and freekicks were dreadful. Scored some good goals, as did Downing, but I liked Downing as a player, top pro. McLeish said he was top notch in training despite the transfer saga. Sorry to see both go, but thats football.

I think it's very telling that if you ask the Villa fans (or Boro for that matter) - who have watched him week in, week out - about Downing, you'll likely get a positive response.

Very good player and quite obviously underrated by a lot of people. Maybe if his parents had named him 'Downinho' or something similar, he would have a slightly better reputation amongst the football public of this country.

Very good signing in my opinion and an undoubted improvement to the squad. I still think we could do with one more for the wide positions, but even if that doesn't materialise, we can head into the new season knowing that we've improved in that area with this signing alone.

[Hank Scorpio]

Don't think anyone questions that to be honest. He plugs a gap on the left, just as Riera did for a time.

I don't think transfer fees are as important to us these days.

Gone are the days where we sign Bellamy and Pennant instead of Alves because the strength and depth of our squad and the restrictions of our budget dictate so.

If the player improves us, as I believe Downing will, then it is a good signing.

I'm sure Benitez was after him when we signed Riera.  I think Boro were asking for around £15m then and it made sense for us to sign Riera at £8m instead given the fact that we were working with a tighter budget.

FSG have seemingly recognised that we need to investment in playing staff.  I don't think spending £20m on Downing will necessarily restrict us spending £25m on say, Mata or another superstar player, if the circumstances arise.

I still think we need another wide player.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Seven goals and seven assists in a poor Villa side last season.

Although, Ashley Young scored seven and provided ten assists.

Luka Modric only scored three and supplied two assists though.

[mattsant]

Good luck Stewart.

[rossipersiempre]

Explain, then if you curl the ball without enough pace the Gk will save it. If you more power and not enough dip or curve on it it will most likely go wide

Suggest you google/youtube his FK against Recreativo (not to mention the Pompey one already discussed) and then come back here and spout further bollocks about Aurelio not being able to put pace on his FKs. He does what is needed to score, and his technique and body shape when striking a static ball is almost perfection itself. Sneijder has the same gait. Fucking hell, did you not stand there and applaud when he made VdS and Cech look like Sunday league goalies?

Enough dragging this off-topic...

[rappcats]

I personally wouldn't even have bought Henderson (I think that is the most wasteful buy we've made in years) considering we have Shelvey and Spearing, yet we spent 16m on him - and it's not even like we needed to buy him for next season to push the fee so high.

We finally buy the top british talent with already 70 caps in the Premiership, bid for one of the best british defenders and people still moan, give me a break. With the romance between fathead and slurface Henderson would go to united the next year probably, that's the same reason ferguson went all out to get Jones this summer- didn't need him now, but could miss out. In financial terms - even if the fee is 16m, he still costs us ~2,6 a year, given an extension it would be less than 2m in amortisation. When we will be selling him, we could recoup at least a half of the fee. Considering everything goes okay we get a player who can contribute and has enough expierience at the age of 20, he will play for us in his prime, fills the homegrown quota and being british enables to recoup a significant amount from his fee. And the most important thing after we bought him:

Let the lad play a game !

Now it's the first step of building a team that will conquer Europe once again. At the moment we don't have the financial muscle to fund players like Aguero who will cost 40m + the same amount in ages. We need to get better in the league - players like Adam and Downing do their jobs at lesser teams with worse players, they do better with our lads Valencia at yernited is a prime example). The passing game will be back when our youngsters grow up, add to that Suarez, Lucas, Carroll and few others in their prime + 1-2 foreign stars and we will be fine.

[hugoboss]

That's fine, but based on what? Potential? Who knows what Carroll can become. He has great potential, he could be a beast. Or he could be incredibly wasteful and burnout early. 35m for 6 months of good performances is a joke though. Negredo would make far more sense - and he'd be cheaper. The only way that Carroll fee will look to make sense is if he becomes one of the top forwards in the world for a few years. That's a big bet to make, I personally wouldn't have made it.

Again, these are just names. The point being you can get 3 players with similar skillsets cheaper. I personally wouldn't even have bought Henderson (I think that is the most wasteful buy we've made in years) considering we have Shelvey and Spearing, yet we spent 16m on him - and it's not even like we needed to buy him for next season to push the fee so high.

Mata and Downing are different players and Downing is a player with more width but Mata can get wide too. It's just that he is superior to every other thing that makes chasing Downing at the risk of not getting Mata very silly. You don't even need to be a chief scout to see this. It's like comparing Silva and Barton.

True, and that's the thing: you never know. Kenny can do awesomely. For me though, at the prices he is paying he is putting a crapload of pressure on himself to make these guys work. He could, as I have opined, spent less for even better players (or more renown players) and he won't have the same pressure. If the likes of Downing, Henderson and co don't work...people will look more to Dalglish than the players - because everybody already knows the limitations of these players. Dalglish is betting on them playing above their level.

But take the more illustrious alternatives; people will critique Dalglish less and will also critique the players for not performing - because people expect them to perform well.

Burnout in 6 months? What does that even mean, IMO Carroll will grow to be a Drogba type player who will bully defenders and score lots of goals haven't see anything in Negredo to believe he can do that.

How does Krancjar have the same skill set as Henderson and isn't it obvious we were going for potential we already have experienced players like Meireles in a similar mold.

Mata can go wide but that's not his natural game, again about players and systems, you bring a good player and ask him to change his game to fit your system rather than bring in a player who's natural game will fit with the system you are trying to adopt

[Ikki.Fenikkusu]

This is the problem with people just looking at a fee, without context.  The missing context in this case was the length remaining on their respective contracts - Young's only had 1 year left and Downing's 2.  If they both had had the same amount of time left on their contracts then it would be fair comparing the prices directly.  But they didn't, so it isn't.  It's not a valid comparison.   

If Downing only had a year left on his contract he'd be worth more like 10-12m rather than 18-20m. 

In other words - if you take the contractual situation into account Young cost more than Downing did.  Which matches your assessment of the respective player's abilities.

For your interest, I knew of the contract length remaining on both players and took that into account. You should also know Downing sent in a transfer request and had told Villa that he wouldn't be signing a new contract for a few months now.

[vicgill]

Well thats made my night, if we only sign a left back now DC i think we'll be good to go for next season.

just read in the Marca that we are in for Capdevilla of Villareal

[tinkertailor]

I'm dubious. No one seems to have mentioned what I think is Downing's biggest problem - the fact that he can't take players on. More than wingers, we've been crying out for players who have the ability to go past people (hence the collective love-in over Suarez). £20 mil (or so) for width and the occasional cross on target doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

[Hank Scorpio]

just read in the Marca that we are in for Capdevilla of Villareal

I doubt that very much mate.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

just read in the Marca that we are in for Capdevilla of Villareal

A thirty-three year old?

Ha.

[keyo]

Well, it seems you haven't paid attention to the context of my posting re risk. If Downing succeeds, great. But the overpaying creates a risk for Kenny, financially and otherwise. That is why it obliges me to look at it as an "If he fails" type scenario. For if he doesn't, even after 2 years, his value won't be anywhere near 20m and we take a big hit...unnecessarily.

no, you merely looked at failing and the risk that is associated with failing....price does not increase the risk of failing, it is merely part of the function...."if he doesn't even after 2 years....." - you are still looking at resale value as a valuation of the sale (again, maybe you are just rubbish at expressing yourself, i don't know)

Well, firstly, I haven't said we got done because of the Young transfer. But as a comparison it does show that we are paying more for an inferior player. I am pretty sure 90% of people would take Young for 16.5 than Downing for 20.

And frankly, I don't put them in the same bracket - Young is distinctly better IMO. Scores at a rate double to Downing whilst providing more or less the same amount of assists , and is a year younger. Both though, are overrated and overpaid for - Young just slightly less so.

your opinion as to who is better, based on prices you cannot confirm....they ARE in the same bracket, they played for the same team, both get into the england squad, but are not automatic team picks, similar age, qualities, stats, blah de blah.....and again you say overrated, your opinion, others would say indicative of the market, no?

But the price is a reflection of the manager's priority. If Torres goes to Chelsea for 50m then for Ancelotti or whoever to claim that he isn't a priority it is disingenuous.

Similarly, for Liverpool a wide-man has been needed for years now. We got one, and we paid dearly for one. I'm inclined to think Kenny thinks he is a priority. In fact, if he didn't and we spent 20m on him I'd be even more worried about how badly we are negotiating these fees.

it seems you are not very good at reading and comprehending (easy to be patronising isn't it?)....what i meant was it is not an argument that relates.....priorities and price are to the extent that we willl pay more for priorities, but so will everyone....the argument however is whether a player is a priority first, and then the limit on what that means you would pay, clearly we did not reach the amount we would see as a limit!!  that downing is a priority means he was wanted for a role in the squad, that we got him means we paid a price acceptable to us based on our requirements and budget......tell me you know what those parameters where and i will happily cede you are in full control of the discussion on the matters you appear to think you are

With respect to our budget and what we are planning, you are totally right. We have to wait until the end of the transfer window to properly gauge what is going on and get an idea of what Kenny wants.

Having said that, I don't think you need intimiate knowledge or graphs to show why some of our transfer dealings since FSG have been very, very expensive - bordering on wasteful.

never said you need a graph etc...and expensive and value for money are 2 different things......aston martins are expensive, but everyone accepts that is the price you have to pay....so i assume you mean overly expensive, to which i again refer back to what i said about downing...look at the transfer, the circumstances etc....and then judge, are we improved? is there a method? 

we all have opinions about players, and i do not think it is necessary to fall back on the 'kenny knows best argument'......we are on the net after all....but, criticism about policy, fees, strategy, etc has to be based on facts and reality, not an opinion.....we are not clued up enough to pass judgement right now on the owners, so query, yes, but judge when you have sufficient information

[KK Legend]

What a bloody joke this is ....20 F*$%&* million on steward downing aged 27 english and as average as a winger can come ! Firstly we overpaid for carroll but circumstances dictated that but this one is taking the piss. It does not fall in line with the owners model of young talent and is on the threshold of their age criteria. I'm not complaining that we are signing p[layers but like some one said early we seem to spending silly money just to get a target when clearly in this case they are way better options out there. Its not a question of not backing Kenny or the club but have a bit reasoning to question. It all boils down the to fact that he is english right ? What a waste i dont understand this signing 

Way,way over the top mate. I just don't get this type of attitude at all, I mean for a start has £20m even been confirmed and if it has what the hell has it got to do with us? Nesv own the club and they can do pretty much what they want with any of the clubs resources at this moment...the transfer money might not even have come from the clubs coffers as such.
    Another thing is, how do people actually know for certain their is better, cheaper options out there that would be willing to move to Liverpool and play for the club. Incase it wasn't apparent there's still many reasons why the world's best might not want to come here at precisely this moment in time. I 'm not even going to bother pointing them out, if you don't bloody know now you never will.
    Right now all we can really do as supporters and this is blindingly obvious too is to remain positive about the clubs future and put as much of our trust and faith and support in to Nesv, Kenny, his staff and his team as we can,  and I'll tell you this for f@ck all, if there's one person that deserves the time, patience, support and respect from us it's f@cking definitely Kenny Dalglish.
  My take on Downing, completely disregarding any fee because that's for the clubs to decide is he's a very experienced player in the top league, he regularly plays for what is still adjudged to be one of the top international sides, his own career and status as a footballer has generally improved year on year, he's around about his peak age in footballing terms, undoubtedly the man has a decent football pedigree with his own qualities as a player to back that up and anyone that refutes that is either blind, hasn't watched premiership football for the last 10 years or so or just looking to be negative for the sake of it because we're not buying player a,b,c from club x,y,z abroad. And another personal opinion of Downing which can be taken or left is he fits the profile of the type of Liverpool player I want to see at the club and it seems Kenny thinks the same. And that my friends is enough for me.

[rossipersiempre]

I don't think transfer fees are as important to us these days.

Gone are the days where we sign Bellamy and Pennant instead of Alves because the strength and depth of our squad and the restrictions of our budget dictate so.

If the player improves us, as I believe Downing will, then it is a good signing.

I'm sure Benitez was after him when we signed Riera.  I think Boro were asking for around £15m then and it made sense for us to sign Riera at £8m instead given the fact that we were working with a tighter budget.

FSG have seemingly recognised that we need to investment in playing staff.  I don't think spending £20m on Downing will necessarily restrict us spending £25m on say, Mata or another superstar player, if the circumstances arise.

I still think we need another wide player.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. Except maybe for the evidential use of Rafa's previous interest, which isn't ultra-reliable especially when it comes to overpriced Aston Villa stalwarts.

[Ikki.Fenikkusu]

Burnout in 6 months? What does that even mean, IMO Carroll will grow to be a Drogba type player who will bully defenders and score lots of goals haven't see anything in Negredo to believe he can do that.

How does Krancjar have the same skill set as Henderson and isn't it obvious we were going for potential we already have experienced players like Meireles in a similar mold.

Mata can go wide but that's not his natural game, again about players and systems, you bring a good player and ask him to change his game to fit your system rather than bring in a player who's natural game will fit with the system you are trying to adopt

I'm referring to his character - seems like he has a wild temperament. I am saying, that bar 6 months in the EPL he has nothing to really suggest anything like the ungodly figure we've paid. Heck, even on the basis of last season he only scored 13 goals in 29 appearances.

Again, Mata, Krancjar et al are just names. FTR, Mata can play pretty wide comfortably. It's not much of a stretch. In his first season at Valencia he played much wider than later on.

[Clonsilla Red]

Seven goals and seven assists in a poor Villa side last season.

Although, Ashley Young scored seven and provided ten assists.

Luka Modric only scored three and supplied two assists though.

Luka Modric shouldn't be mentioned with the other 2 he keeps things ticking over in the middle of the park a bit like our xabi (sigh!!) oh how I miss xabi..
Its not comparing like with like with his stats imo.

[andyrol]

nobody has signed modric or sneijder yet. and suarez i think was £22 million because a) he's foreign and b) he was in the middle of a massive ban for biting, some looked and questioned his temperament.  nobody really knows how much and the time scale on payment downing is costing. but we do know that english players cost more than foreign players, especially one who is an england squad regular.

[hugoboss]

Like Rossi said, getting players in with the creativity to break those kinds of teams down would be much more beneficial. Of course, having good set pieces is always an advantage, but if it came down to either/or, there should only be one winner (not that it would like, just saying for the purposes of your post).

But we do have players who can pass and break teams down Downing, Suarez, Adam, Gerrard, Henderson, Shelvey, Maxi but what happens when it doesn't work? Arsenal don't always breakdown stubborn defenses, we need to have a plan B and plan C which could be stretch the defense and get crosses in for CF and CM runners, or get as many FK and corners so we can send more men into their penalty area. It's all about winning might not always be pretty football but so long as it is effective and available when needed

[DUGlish]

Heard it could be a fee plus Skrtel.