Topic: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion

[Andy @ Allerton]

True. You have offered many posts yourself that were thoughful especially during the hodgson days. And I like to think that I have too on occasion.

Please read my post more as a comeback to Breitner's "embarassing" crack at me rather than as a slur on your posts or anybody else's.

Fair enough

[carling]

I understahnd what you are saying - but what are Henderson's attributes anyway? Why is he worth the money that we paid for him and the confidence invested in him to play him int he first team? Being diligent, tidy and competent at keeping possession is hardly good enough a reason. At the moment, he appears to be Beckham-ish - average in speed, strength, excellent in attitude, diligence and competent technically - but unfortunately without Beckham's right foot. 

Just competent technically?  Of the little I've seen of him that's what I've been impressed most by.  His passing technique with both the inside and outside of his boot looks right out of the top drawer.  He looks a complete natural when he's controlling the ball or has it at his feet.  Think it might have been fat head who said he was a pure footballer, from what I've seen that looks like a pretty accurate description.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Who said my post was aimed at you? It's more the outpouring of bellendry on here at the moment with anyone who had a sub par opening game, regardless of age or potential, a target

Maybe you feel guilt for having a critical agenda? I'm not sure how you feel out there in Oz but there's many loyal and passionate fans on here who take offence at your constant stream of negativity, even if it's dressed up as 'thought' and 'reflection'

As for Hendo and what he brings to the table, he doesn't do the flashy stuff but he works hard, he passes the ball well and keeps it simple and ticking over. Those players will never get the headlines but managers know how important they are to the foundations of the team

What a lot of Sunderland fans have said (And I agree with them) is that he's one for the future rather than one for 'right now'..

I can see him in 2-3 years with more experience as being a fine player for us.

[subroc]

Who said my post was aimed at you? It's more the outpouring of bellendry on here at the moment with anyone who had a sub par opening game, regardless of age or potential, a target

Maybe you feel guilt for having a critical agenda? I'm not sure how you feel out there in Oz but there's many loyal and passionate fans on here who take offence at your constant stream of negativity, even if it's dressed up as 'thought' and 'reflection'

As for Hendo and what he brings to the table, he doesn't do the flashy stuff but he works hard, he passes the ball well and keeps it simple and ticking over. Those players will never get the headlines but managers know how important they are to the foundations of the team

I apologise then if that was not aimed at me.

At what was aimed at me though - it is interesting to me if there are many "loyal and passionate fans" who take offence at my "negativity". Perhaps many of them were on the opposite side to me in the Hodgson days when I was defending Benitez from unfair allegations. I would disagree with you if so, on the "loyal and passionate fans" description of those posters...

I speak out at things that I feel could be improved when I see it. If you see it as negativity, then so be it. I have received enough posts that say they agree with me to know that I am not alone in my views...

[Andy @ Allerton]

I apologise then if that was not aimed at me.

At what was aimed at me though - it is interesting to me if there are many "loyal and passionate fans" who take offence at my "negativity". Perhaps many of them were on the opposite side to me in the Hodgson days when I was defending Benitez from unfair allegations. I would disagree with you if so, on the "loyal and passionate fans" description of those posters...

I speak out at things that I feel could be improved when I see it. If you see it as negativity, then so be it. I have received enough posts that say they agree with me to know that I am not alone in my views...

He is a young lad and a new player at the club - so there is no reason to back the lad and hope that he progresses. He was bought with one eye on the future.

[Scribble8]

I think he'll be a great player, but throwing him in just to have him on the pitch because he was expensive is not the right way to go. Everybody knows he's not a right midfielder and Kuyt is clearly the better player today.

[subroc]

He is a young lad and a new player at the club - so there is no reason to back the lad and hope that he progresses. He was bought with one eye on the future.

We've spent the money, so I hope along with everyone else that he will come good. Anyway, roll on the next game.

[lucas21]

Did well. He looks like a good acquisition.

Those were my thoughts.
Not easy first game against his old club and the team that he supported all his life. Not an easy task to do I imagine, Don't get this criticism after 1 game.
I wonder is Flannagan getting torn apart for having a poorer game than usual?

[-Willo-]

Honestly though I don't get the criticism, he was not near as bad as people are making out, infact I think he was pretty solid, his pass succession whilst I'm not sure what it is, it was probably in the 90% bracket for the first three quarters of the game, he tailed off towards the end, but so did the whole team, where we needed someone to step up and take the game by the scruff of the neck when Sunderland were on top, however you can't blame him for that, as at 20 and making his debut, I wouldn't imagine him to have the confidence or mentality to do so

[Kopite B205]

I watched Henderson very close yesterday. One thing I noticed was his excellent ball retention and he very rarely gave the ball away. He did however always take the safe option and opt for the short 5 yard first time pass and seemed rather reluctant to take the initiative and play a more expansive passing game. I can see alot of potential in the lad, but yesterday he seemed to be on the periphery an awful lot and didn't contribute much from an offensive point of view.

[eskdale]

Personally thought Kenny got all the new lads (bar Doni) on the pitch yesterday to get their debuts out of the way. Allowing him to know he can call on anyone of them now throughout the season without having to worry about debuting them under what might be a higher pressure situation.

I missed the game, but from what I've read the lad did alright and has been bought for the future, with possibly a reasonable role to play in this season, but likely not first choice week in week out.

But that's all speculative. Let just see how it pans out and give the lad a chance.

[its cold in the stands]

I watched Henderson very close yesterday. One thing I noticed was his excellent ball retention and he very rarely gave the ball away. He did however always take the safe option and opt for the short 5 yard first time pass and seemed rather reluctant to take the initiative and play a more expansive passing game. I can see alot of potential in the lad, but yesterday he seemed to be on the periphery an awful lot and didn't contribute much from an offensive point of view.

thats what happens when you make your debut at a big club, you dont want to make any glaring mistakes which he didnt.
i think people are going over the top on his performance, he was solid if unspectacular, kuyt`s churned those types of performances out for years.
if we would have won 1-0 he wouldnt be getting half this shite, the way people are going on you`d swear he cost us the game by getting sent off or giving away a pen or something.
once his confidence grows and he starts to feel at home he`ll start to try to influence games more as opposed to getting through 90 minutes without f##king up, then again the way people are reacting to his performance yesterday he is right to play cautiously, imagine if he would have made an error like a poor backpass to the keeper or something that cost us a goal?

[Butter Keks]

I watched Henderson very close yesterday. One thing I noticed was his excellent ball retention and he very rarely gave the ball away. He did however always take the safe option and opt for the short 5 yard first time pass and seemed rather reluctant to take the initiative and play a more expansive passing game. I can see alot of potential in the lad, but yesterday he seemed to be on the periphery an awful lot and didn't contribute much from an offensive point of view.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts from yesterday as well. Quite a lot of times he would get the ball and seem reluctant to have a run at Richardson and instead would either go back to Reina or look for a short pass inside. I don't think he should be deployed on the right against teams when we are playing at Anfield but I could see his ball retention coming in handy away to teams like Man Utd and Chelsea.

It was a solid enough debut, Just not a great one.

[7777]

Like the previous exchange of posts that I hadwith you, instead of answering my question, you point to what others think of him instead. Nobody is denying that he is enough quality to be a Premiership player.  Of course he is. But what kind of potential and attributes exactly make him good enough to warrant signing on at such a price?

I don't know yet, I've seen him play a single solitary league game for us. ONE

Bore off

[Istillstilltrustrafa]

I think people forget that these players are only human, many playing their first league games at anfield -
they are gonna be nervous etc.. playing within themselves, trying not to fuck up...
As the season progresses they will grow in confidence, the signs of a great team was there -
We need to be patient and show them our support.. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that..

[rafathegaffa83]

Honestly though I don't get the criticism, he was not near as bad as people are making out, infact I think he was pretty solid, his pass succession whilst I'm not sure what it is, it was probably in the 90% bracket for the first three quarters of the game, he tailed off towards the end, but so did the whole team, where we needed someone to step up and take the game by the scruff of the neck when Sunderland were on top, however you can't blame him for that, as at 20 and making his debut, I wouldn't imagine him to have the confidence or mentality to do so

Definitely. It was probably the type of debut you'd expect from a twenty year old making his first appearance at home against his former hometown and boyhood club after only training for less than a month. He kept it safe and tidy. Nothing overly spectacular, but he's one for the future.

[Tepid water]

I watched Henderson very close yesterday. One thing I noticed was his excellent ball retention and he very rarely gave the ball away. He did however always take the safe option and opt for the short 5 yard first time pass and seemed rather reluctant to take the initiative and play a more expansive passing game. I can see alot of potential in the lad, but yesterday he seemed to be on the periphery an awful lot and didn't contribute much from an offensive point of view.

Mostly true....


He played very well in the first half, used the ball well, passed very very well.

The team lost momentum at the end of the first half and then in the second half.  He began to look lost then, and as the most junior debutant didn't have it to impose himself on the game.  I think the fact that Flanno was making mistake after mistake behind him didn't help either.



For people to criticise the kid after 60minutes is a pile of shit...shameful.

The lessons of Lucas clea,ry haven't been learned by these morons.

[jDJ]

It was probably the type of debut you'd expect from a twenty year old making his first appearance at home against his former hometown and boyhood club after only training for less than a month. He kept it safe and tidy.

I actually think it was a more composed mature performance than, under the circumstances you describe, we might have expected.

[MolbyLovesGravy]

He is a good player and he is going to get better. He isn't a flashy player, but he is very good at making the right decision and playing the simple pass that keeps possesion and then moves to be available for a return.
He had an average game yesterday, and with hindsight, right now he probably didn't warrant inclusion above Kuyt or Raul, both of whom could have slotted into the 1st eleven yesterday.
Still though, Henderson is going to be one of those players that fans of other teams, and the less insightful RAWKites, will talk about being very average and not worth the money for a couple of seasons, before somebody on SKY starts talking about how he is underated and then people will start saying positive things.

[zabadoh]

This reminds me of the early Lucas debate in our favorite Brazilian's first season:  "He's horrible, let's get rid of!  He's Masch's backup?!?  Noooooo!"  I'll admit it, I jumped on the anti-Lucas' bandwagon too.

A couple of seasons later and Lucas was indispensable.  Full credit to him for keeping his head up amidst the boos (remember that disgrace?) from our supporters.

Give Hendo a couple of  seasons, then judge.

[rafathegaffa83]

I actually think it was a more composed mature performance than, under the circumstances you describe, we might have expected.

Oh I agree. I just think some people seem to have been overly critical about it.

[Breitner]

thats what happens when you make your debut at a big club, you dont want to make any glaring mistakes which he didnt.

Not specificaly related to Henderson but I was reflecting on this last night, do you think the expectation at the club, a lot of it completely unrealistic, is why so many playersc are unable to adapt and why we play with so much fear these days? Or is it purely about quality, or the lack of? It's frustrating seeing players being so precise and unable to express themselves through fear of failure. We remind me of England at times

[Tepid water]

I can't remember who said it bit I think it was about alonso.

The quote was something along the lines of. "he's the kind of player that wins you titles not games"


Not to say we will win the title but his contribution will be like that.

[withgreataplomb]

Henderson, to me looks like a player who really doesn't know himself which position he is most comfortable in,
behind the strikers?, wide midfield?, central playmaker?, he has the potential to play all three, but hasn't made one his own yet,
so he could probably emerge as a midfield utility player, Jack of all trades, master of none, as it were.

[1021]

Not specificaly related to Henderson but I was reflecting on this last night, do you think the expectation at the club, a lot of it completely unrealistic, is why so many playersc are unable to adapt and why we play with so much fear these days? Or is it purely about quality, or the lack of? It's frustrating seeing players being so precise and unable to express themselves through fear of failure. We remind me of England at times

Doesn't help when every miss placed pass, or backwards pass is met by groans from 20000 people, either.
Honestly don't understand why this thread has exploded.
His debut came and went he did the simple things right, his passing is there, movement looks good and as with every new signing, patience is required, and every 20 year old patience is required.

As Fats said a while back, possible too many debutants for one game, so we were lacking a bit of cohesion (which will come), and probably not ideal having him and Flanagan sharing a wing. But nothing but encouraging signs from the lad, just needs some support.

[7777]

http://paisleygates.com/?p=4126

With some actual analysis over the course of a season, not a single game

3rd in the entire league for chances created

#potential

[Nessy76]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/r84s389apr1fb2Aa24UH

Not having a go at the lad at all here, he didn't do too much wrong and I certainly don't blame him for the result, but one thing I noticed here was his passing. He didn't make a single successful forward pass when in the opposition half all game. For an attacking player, that's a problem, but his passing accuracy overall (28 of 32 total passes completed) is very good, so it's a problem which should be simple enough to solve.

For a young lad on his debut, being asked to give cover to a very inexperienced full back behind him, I can see how this happened, but the problem is that by not moving the ball forwards, he was actually increasing the pressure on Flanagan, and eventually that cost us the match.

He clearly has quality, and there's no question he'll improve. Put Johnson behind him, and I think we could have some great overlapping movement down the right hand side.

[Tepid water]

http://paisleygates.com/?p=4126

With some actual analysis over the course of a season, not a single game

3rd in the entire league for chances created

#potential

Let's ignore actual facts and let's make a snap judgement of a poor 30minutes.


Looking at facts over an entire season would be reasonable, fair and realistic for a youg player.  Can't be having that I want to play like barca next time.

4-0 vs arsenal or I'll be well fucked off.

[Tepid water]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/r84s389apr1fb2Aa24UH

Not having a go at the lad at all here, he didn't do too much wrong and I certainly don't blame him for the result, but one thing I noticed here was his passing. He didn't make a single successful forward pass when in the opposition half all game. For an attacking player, that's a problem, but his passing accuracy overall (28 of 32 total passes completed) is very good, so it's a problem which should be simple enough to solve.

For a young lad on his debut, being asked to give cover to a very inexperienced full back behind him, I can see how this happened, but the problem is that by not moving the ball forwards, he was actually increasing the pressure on Flanagan, and eventually that cost us the match.

He clearly has quality, and there's no question he'll improve. Put Johnson behind him, and I think we could have some great overlapping movement down the right hand side.

It will come.

[Nessy76]

It will come.

I reckon so. 

[Red Bird]

To step up, though, he will need to do much more with and without the ball. At 20, he is young enough to be moulded into a Liverpool player.

[Tepid water]

I do have a problem with all this shit, and it's that people make judgements on players not on what they do for the team but on how much they cost.

He cost x so I can expect y as it were.

The bollocks on this thread in bizarre, if truth be told the worst player for us by quite some margin was Flanno who was playing behind him...... Little said about that, which is fine because he's young and will develop...but then the same could be said of Henderson.

[Istillstilltrustrafa]

I do have a problem with all this shit, and it's that people make judgements on players not on what they do for the team but on how much they cost.

He cost x so I can expect y as it were.

The bollocks on this thread in bizarre, if truth be told the worst player for us by quite some margin was Flanno who was playing behind him...... Little said about that, which is fine because he's young and will develop...but then the same could be said of Henderson.

Players from Liverpool will always be afforded more leeway around here though.. sad but true

[Tepid water]

Players from Liverpool will always be afforded more leeway around here though.. sad but true

Not sad, I respect that, but Henderson needs at least a seasons grace!

[its cold in the stands]

Not specificaly related to Henderson but I was reflecting on this last night, do you think the expectation at the club, a lot of it completely unrealistic, is why so many playersc are unable to adapt and why we play with so much fear these days? Or is it purely about quality, or the lack of? It's frustrating seeing players being so precise and unable to express themselves through fear of failure. We remind me of England at times

you need players that can cope with that expectation and it`s tough, united in the 80`s bought plenty of players that looked great at other clubs but once they went to old trafford and they had the pressure of not winning the title for so long heaped onto their shoulders they folded.
thats why i admire the likes of gerrard and bryan robson a lot, they coped with that expectation and pressure for over a decade and often whilst their team mates wilted under the pressure around them.
to play practically your whole career under that pressure and to churn out the quality performances that they did over so long a period makes them superb players in my eyes.

[sattapaal]

The kid is learning. Not only learning his new players/team, but learning a new position. He is not a right winger. You can see his instincts and his dilemma in staying central rather than bombing down the wing. You can see his movement is largely "free" when his header at the near post went wide when the ball came in from the left. Great movement, his possession was good too. But did he play well as a right winger? In my opinion, No. But he kept the ball moving. If it was Kuyt he would have gave the ball away a lot more. Hendo didn't hit the byline, it wasnt his instinct, yet.

For me, he just needs to overlap his full back rather than look for the square ball (where Lucas, Adam and possibly Downing would be anyway).

[richiedouglas]

I have to admit that before joining us I'd only seen him in Centre Mid. From watching him yesterday he must be regarded as the "Beckham" (sorry) type winger who doesnt really beat a man but creates the space to whip good balls in. His potential link up play with Suarez, Lucas, Adam in the first half will be spot on when they all gel

[aoaaron]

hes not defensivley very good. he will be a right mid/winger for us. when he played for sunderland, his movement was good but defensivley a bit suspect... not in a tracking back kind of way but in a being able to tackle/mark effectivley.

hes not a beckham type winger. hes movements far better, hes a good pass and move player and has no where near the quality of delivery beckham had.

hes also not like lucas because lucas has always had very good defensive talent in respect to his age at all times.

[Breitner]

hes not defensivley very good. he will be a right mid/winger for us. when he played for sunderland, his movement was good but defensivley a bit suspect... not in a tracking back kind of way but in a being able to tackle/mark effectivley.

Have a season ticket at the SOL did you?

[aoaaron]

Have a season ticket at the SOL did you?

no but i watch most of sunderland's matches. football nut.