Author Topic: The Pro Cycling Thread (Read 61169 times)

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2240 on:** July 7, 2012, 07:51:26 PM »

Quote from: RedinExeter on July 7, 2012, 07:44:37 PM

If all the riders are off their tits then it's a level playing field.

But what of the clean rider's,is it level for them too?

And different people are effected by differently by drug programme's.

The rider's who have died in their sleep because their blood is too thick to flow,would you let one of your kid's go into cycling?

It's more important than if their all on it it's ok.

RedinExeter · « **Reply #2241 on:** July 7, 2012, 07:59:35 PM »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 7, 2012, 07:51:26 PM

But what of the clean rider's,is it level for them too?

And different people are effected by differently by drug programme's.

The rider's who have died in their sleep because their blood is too thick to flow,would you let one of your kid's go into cycling?

It's more important than if their all on it it's ok.

I know, it wasn't a serious statement, these guys are the elite, it irritates me that people want to immediately say 'NO THEY'RE ON DRUGS' because they put in such an incredible performance. This is what they train their lives for. Maybe I'm just young and naïve but give them the benefit of the doubt.

Greyco · « **Reply #2242 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:06:02 PM »

Really impressed how Sky thundered up that mountain. Have to say that both Froome and Wiggins are excellent ambassadors for UK cycling. Saw a few interviews earlier and they came across really well.
Wonder how their success will influence the English media and generate more intrest in the sport, especially for other races besides the Tour.

HoinkDoink · « **Reply #2243 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:08:57 PM »

Just got in and seen the highlights, Froome is a beast

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2244 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:09:34 PM »

Quote from: RedinExeter on July 7, 2012, 07:59:35 PM

I know, it wasn't a serious statement, these guys are the elite, it irritates me that people want to immediately say 'NO THEY'RE ON DRUGS' because they put in such an incredible performance. This is what they train their lives for. Maybe I'm just young and naïve but give them the benefit of the doubt.

Well,I'm older and seen a lot of cycling.Therin lie's my cynicism.

Unfortunately history tell's me you can't give them the benefit.Sky have been too strong for too long this year,they have yet to have a bad day.That doesn't happen.Are all the other team's can't compete,why?

Red,like I've said I'd love to watch a race and not think doper,but once bitten....

humph77 · « **Reply #2245 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:10:22 PM »

Dave - was ready to dismiss your claims right away (in a respectful way of course) as always believed Wiggo in particular as clean but you have sowed a seed of doubt now with some good points.

I still believe/hope that thrilling performance today was result of the rigourous training and tactics Sky have been specifically developing for this race over the last 12 months but who knows eh?

I don't believe it's an EPO fest like the 90's anymore though where somewhat average riders almost sprinted and attacked at will up climbs like the Hautocam (can't remember that year).

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2246 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:12:17 PM »

And in answer to my own question about "our Brad",this from a journalist on The Guardian.

https://twitter.com/mattseaton/status/221645425374019584

RedinExeter · « **Reply #2247 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:20:12 PM »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 7, 2012, 08:09:34 PM

Well,I'm older and seen a lot of cycling.Therin lie's my cynicism.

Unfortunately history tell's me you can't give them the benefit.Sky have been too strong for too long this year,they have yet to have a bad day.That doesn't happen.Are all the other team's can't compete,why?

Red,like I've said I'd love to watch a race and not think doper,but once bitten....

I would argue that the day they failed to lead out Cav successfully, forcing him to drop back and go it alone was a bad day. They've only yet had one really good day in this tour. If we see them fly up every climb without breaking a sweat then it'll look suspicious but right now it's too early to tell.

Witherkay · « **Reply #2248 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:21:37 PM »

If Wiggins is ultimately proved to be having 'chemical assistance', the UK media will quickly call him 'the Belgian born son of the Australian cyclist...'.
If Froome was, he would become 'the Kenyan born South African', etc.

The English sense of fair play will not allow cheats. See the 'Scottish' reformed drug cheat David Millar for another example.

Anyway..........having two UK cyclist in the top three of a potentially 'big' stage seems like a dream compared to where we were in the early 90's, just looking out for the Derby born Italian Max Sciandri.

I don't think the UK has seen the sort of cycling success it has had over the last few years since the days of Tom Simpson. And we know how that ended up.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2249 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:22:41 PM »

Quote from: humph77 on July 7, 2012, 08:10:22 PM

Dave - was ready to dismiss your claims right away (in a respectful way of course) as always believed Wiggo in particular as clean but you have sowed a seed of doubt now with some good points.

I still believe/hope that thrilling performance today was result of the rigourous training and tactics Sky have been specifically developing for this race over the last 12 months but who knows eh?

I don't believe it's an EPO fest like the 90's anymore though where somewhat average riders almost sprinted and attacked at will up climbs like the Hautocam (can't remember that year).

Humph,I like Wiggins.I rode around Holmeswood a few year's ago and he took the time to talk and go slow enough for me to pedal and talk at the same time.

But,as I've said it's not possible to win a gt without a programme.Look at Boardman,he's one of a few I'd bet rode clean.He beat Indurain in a week long race,yet 3 week's later because he was clean he wasn't able to recover as well as the doper's at the top of the gc and never came close to winning a gt.

If Sky are committed to clean racing why have doctor's who have been involved with doping programme's on other team's?

I look at this thread and it look's like I have an agenda against Sky.I don't,just, drug abuse in a sport I love to participate in and watch.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2250 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:28:02 PM »

Quote from: RedinExeter on July 7, 2012, 08:20:12 PM

I would argue that the day they failed to lead out Cav successfully, forcing him to drop back and go it alone was a bad day. They've only yet had one really good day in this tour. If we see them fly up every climb without breaking a sweat then it'll look suspicious but right now it's too early to tell.

Not a bad day in that sense.I'm talking about for the gc.In each race Sky have entered this year they have ridden very well as a team.Wiggins win's this year are amazing,and his team's performance's since Paris-Nice should set off alarm's.You can't be in that kind of form for that long,it's not possible.

Even the posties couldn't do that.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2251 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:30:13 PM »

Quote from: Witherkay on July 7, 2012, 08:21:37 PM

If Wiggins is ultimately proved to be having 'chemical assistance', the UK media will quickly call him 'the Belgian born son of the Australian cyclist...'.
If Froome was, he would become 'the Kenyan born South African', etc.

The English sense of fair play will not allow cheats. See the 'Scottish' reformed drug cheat David Millar for another example.

Anyway..........having two UK cyclist in the top three of a potentially 'big' stage seems like a dream compared to where we were in the early 90's, just looking out for the Derby born Italian Max Sciandri.

I don't think the UK has seen the sort of cycling success it has had over the last few years since the days of Tom Simpson. And we know how that ended up.

Another winner.

humph77 · « **Reply #2252 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:35:40 PM »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 7, 2012, 08:22:41 PM

Humph,I like Wiggins.I rode around Holmeswood a few year's ago and he took the time to talk and go slow enough for me to pedal and talk at the same time.

But,as I've said it's not possible to win a gt without a programme.Look at Boardman,he's one of a few I'd bet rode clean.He beat Indurain in a week long race,yet 3 week's later because he was clean he wasn't able to recover as well as the doper's at the top of the gc and never came close to winning a gt.

If Sky are committed to clean racing why have doctor's who have been involved with doping programme's on other team's?

I look at this thread and it look's like I have an agenda against Sky.I don't,just, drug abuse in a sport I love to participate in and watch.

Haha would love to ride along with fellah like Brad. Rob Hayles whizzed past me on Cat & Fiddle climb couple years back although he did let on as he went by.

Yeah I can see you're not anti Sky - I just so want to believe we're now getting clean winners in a sport I love watching and doing too. Suppose Brads climbing style ie riding hard in the saddle without the numerous explosive 'Pantani stylee' spurts leads me to opimistic view.

Never knew the doc link tho - they should be banned for life if found guilty. As you've said, fair few lives been lost in the past to 'programmes'.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2253 on:** July 7, 2012, 08:45:26 PM »

Quote from: humph77 on July 7, 2012, 08:35:40 PM

Haha would love to ride along with fellah like Brad. Rob Hayles whizzed past me on Cat & Fiddle climb couple years back although he did let on as he went by.

Yeah I can see you're not anti Sky - I just so want to believe we're now getting clean winners in a sport I love watching and doing too. Suppose Brads climbing style ie riding hard in the saddle without the numerous explosive 'Pantani stylee' spurts leads me to opimistic view.

Never knew the doc link tho - they should be banned for life if found guilty. As you've said, fair few lives been lost in the past to 'programmes'.

It's the doctor's,director's and administrator's that I hate.To the vast majority of cyclist's it's a job,and in lot's of case's a not very well paid job.

Until the like's of Riis, Bruyneel,and Yates are removed from the position's they hold cycling will never be the kind of sport you would like kid's involved in.

Oh yeah,especially the UCI.

Pheeny · « **Reply #2254 on:** July 7, 2012, 09:58:27 PM »

Mark Cavendish ‏@MarkCavendish
Aside from results, my highlight today was a guy dressed as a giant prawn enthusiastically screaming "Allez" in the Frenchest accent ever.

humph77 · « **Reply #2255 on:** July 7, 2012, 10:19:15 PM »

Quote from: Pheeny on July 7, 2012, 09:58:27 PM

Mark Cavendish ‏@MarkCavendish
Aside from results, my highlight today was a guy dressed as a giant prawn enthusiastically screaming "Allez" in the Frenchest accent ever.

Lightens up the discussion - watched a lot of it today but missed that. Fair play to Cav, did the water carrying duties today.

Pheeny · « **Reply #2256 on:** July 7, 2012, 10:22:35 PM »

Quote from: humph77 on July 7, 2012, 10:19:15 PM

Lightens up the discussion - watched a lot of it today but missed that. Fair play to Cav, did the water carrying duties today.

and finished well before the bus.Must be all them drugs.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2257 on:** July 7, 2012, 10:29:12 PM »

He's on lsd.French prawn's.

humph77 · « **Reply #2258 on:** July 7, 2012, 11:31:36 PM »

Tell yer what - this thread and the cycling one is the benchmark for reasoned discussion

Pheeny · « **Reply #2259 on:** July 7, 2012, 11:43:33 PM »

Quote from: humph77 on July 7, 2012, 11:31:36 PM

Tell yer what - this thread and the cycling one is the benchmark for reasoned discussion

three threads I always check out are the 2 you mentioned and the auld arse one.But the best part of RAWK is the Staffroom as that's where we get to slag you all off...

humph77 · « **Reply #2260 on:** July 7, 2012, 11:55:29 PM »

Quote from: Pheeny on July 7, 2012, 11:43:33 PM

three threads I always check out are the 2 you mentioned and the auld arse one.But the best part of RAWK is the Staffroom as that's where we get to slag you all off...

The Staffroom eh? not heard of that clique before!! Must take a lot of time up discussing the merits of the 'creative writers' in transfer and matchday threads there then.

The 92A · « **Reply #2261 on:** July 8, 2012, 12:06:00 AM »

Quote from: Pheeny on July 7, 2012, 09:58:27 PM

Mark Cavendish ‏@MarkCavendish
Aside from results, my highlight today was a guy dressed as a giant prawn enthusiastically screaming "Allez" in the Frenchest accent ever.

Roy Keane?

Mal · « **Reply #2262 on:** July 8, 2012, 08:07:39 AM »

But late to the party but does anyone know whether Bradley still publishes his blood levels? - He used to do it as a matter of routine...

I can see that Dave has a few points, particularly about the ex-Rabobank Dr. but is it just me or does anyone else want to believe that Dave Brailsford wouldn't go there...?

Melbred · « **Reply #2263 on:** July 8, 2012, 01:46:04 PM »

Another crash. Involving Valverde again.

Looks like Sammy Sanchez is out of the tour. Suspected broken collar bone.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #2264 on:** July 8, 2012, 02:04:11 PM »

Dave - basically I don't agree with any of your points and in my opinion the tour is now the cleanest its been probably since the very early 90's, possibly longer. Rogers was once a tour favourite: Porte is an up and comer and is predicted as a future tour winner - neither will be up there at the end (though Porte has the best chance). Evans is as clean as they come and really should now be going for his 5th tour win or so. I remember the year he finished 12th or something - very rider above him was linked with doping subsequently and at the time Evans was privately saying he couldn't keep up because of the doping.

If you look at the times they have dropped in recent years. The days of systematic doping in the tour are now over - when they nail Armstrong to the wall they can bury that past for good.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2265 on:** July 8, 2012, 02:56:26 PM »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 8, 2012, 02:04:11 PM

Dave - basically I don't agree with any of your points and in my opinion the tour is now the cleanest its been probably since the very early 90's, possibly longer. Rogers was once a tour favourite: Porte is an up and comer and is predicted as a future tour winner - neither will be up there at the end (though Porte has the best chance). Evans is as clean as they come and really should now be going for his 5th tour win or so. I remember the year he finished 12th or something - very rider above him was linked with doping subsequently and at the time Evans was privately saying he couldn't keep up because of the doping.

If you look at the times they have dropped in recent years. The days of systematic doping in the tour are now over - when they nail Armstrong to the wall they can bury that past for good.

That's cool.Then why employ a doctor who ran the doping programme at Rabobank?

Surely there are load's of doctor's without any taint of doping on them.

The only time Rogers has been any good was at T-Mobile,and as soon as Stapleton took over he went backward's.And who said Rodgers was a gc rider? Never.

Porte couldn't do a job for Contador,now he's predicted as a future gc contender.OK.

Evans started his career under the wing of Ferrari,introduced to him by his agent Tony Rominger.That's not the association of a clean rider.

Evans is riding for a team that is known to have had a team wide doping programme,but he's clean and beating known doper's.Also known as the Armstrong arguement.

I'll agree the doping is nowhere near as bad,but to say we can leave it in the past is naive at best.Was cycling not clean after Festina?No Was it clean after Puerto?No.

If there's money to be made in any sport doping is there.

I wont be posting in here again as this is supposed to be about cycling not doping.Unfortunately the two go together.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #2266 on:** July 8, 2012, 03:27:41 PM »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 8, 2012, 02:56:26 PM

That's cool.Then why employ a doctor who ran the doping programme at Rabobank?

Surely there are load's of doctor's without any taint of doping on them.

The only time Rogers has been any good was at T-Mobile,and as soon as Stapleton took over he went backward's.And who said Rodgers was a gc rider? Never.

Porte couldn't do a job for Contador,now he's predicted as a future gc contender.OK.

Evans started his career under the wing of Ferrari,introduced to him by his agent Tony Rominger.That's not the association of a clean rider.

Evans is riding for a team that is known to have had a team wide doping programme,but he's clean and beating known doper's.Also known as the Armstrong arguement.

I'll agree the doping is nowhere near as bad,but to say we can leave it in the past is naive at best.Was cycling not clean after Festina?No Was it clean after Puerto?No.

If there's money to be made in any sport doping is there.

I wont be posting in here again as this is supposed to be about cycling not doping.Unfortunately the two go together.

All you've got is hearsay and nowt much more - its similar to saying someone is guilty of a crime because their Uncle was a hood or something. If you go back over past years on these forums you will see myself and a few diehards have discussed this issue to death. There is one poster on here in particular I would trust with knowing the truth about this, can't see that Cutting wit about here though. My opinion on doping in the Tour has changed over the years and he changed it, but now I am very sceptical of claims that riders like are Evans doping - Evans was a sick sick rider from a very young age with unbelievable physical measurables, which can't be said for someone like Armstrong. Same with Wiggins - he has proven quality and has improved gradually year on year, unlike some who in the past have "improved" drastically from season to season (Rasmussen for example, Contador in the time trials etc). These huge names in the sport have been banned and it has sent a clear message to every rider in the Peleton. The Tour is now as clean as it has been for years as far as I'm concerned, and long may it be so.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2267 on:** July 8, 2012, 03:51:17 PM »

It's not hearsay Evans consulted with Ferrari.Fact.

His coach was Aldo Sassi.Fact.

Sassi worked with Ferrari and Conconi to blood dope Moser to his world record ride on the hour.Fact

Evans rode for Mapei,T-mobile both teams with programme's.Fact.

BMC are doping team back to when they were Phonak.Fact.

And Alberto Contador in his first year as a pro won a a time trial.Fact.

Cycling is a doping sport.And until the doctor's,ds's and administrator's are changed it will continue to be so.

The Tour has never been clean and never will be.

If you choose to believe it's so fine.I don't.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #2268 on:** July 8, 2012, 04:09:51 PM »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 8, 2012, 03:51:17 PM

It's not hearsay Evans consulted with Ferrari.Fact.

His coach was Aldo Sassi.Fact.

Sassi worked with Ferrari and Conconi to blood dope Moser to his world record ride on the hour.Fact

Evans rode for Mapei,T-mobile both teams with programme's.Fact.

BMC are doping team back to when they were Phonak.Fact.

And Alberto Contador in his first year as a pro won a a time trial.Fact.

Cycling is a doping sport.And until the doctor's,ds's and administrator's are changed it will continue to be so.

The Tour has never been clean and never will be.

If you choose to believe it's so fine.I don't.

You are obviously serious but I can't take you seriously. Every rider in the tour has some link with doping because at one stage in the not too distant past doping was systematic through the entire tour. This is not to say every rider was doping, but the most successful ones were. You have no record nor any trace of riders like Evans or Wiggins having being tested positive for drugs and those on the inside state pretty clearly that they haven't - which can't be said for riders like Armstrong, Ulrich, Basso etc etc, where smoke lifted from them every time they raced.

Your "facts" are just insinuations - if you choose to believe insinuations its fine, but I don't. Tenuous links between such and such don't count as guilt in most courts on the globe for a bloody good reason.

I don't want to get into a pissing match here - clearly we have two divergent opinions - I think the tour is now basically clean and hope to see who is the best out of clean riders like Wiggins and Evans, which I think we will in coming weeks.

INABITSKI · « **Reply #2269 on:** July 8, 2012, 04:12:06 PM »

Great ride from the young lad. Good to see a breakaway come good.

Must be the drugs.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2270 on:** July 8, 2012, 04:13:29 PM »

Try some research mate they aren't insinuation's.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #2271 on:** July 8, 2012, 04:19:51 PM »

Just answer this for me then,why did Sky employ as team doctor Geert Leinders?

Pheeny · « **Reply #2272 on:** July 8, 2012, 04:20:09 PM »

Right then with regards to the doping etc.

There is a dedicated thread somewhere do a search or start a new one.

Lets leave this for the tour thank you.

edit here you go....

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=295375.new#new

MadErik · « **Reply #2273 on:** July 8, 2012, 08:04:18 PM »

Marc Madiot in the FDJ car - absolutely hilarious!

humph77 · « **Reply #2274 on:** July 8, 2012, 09:34:34 PM »

Quote from: MadErik on July 8, 2012, 08:04:18 PM

Marc Madiot in the FDJ car - absolutely hilarious!

Highlight of the day that without a doubt. Don't often cheer a frenchman winning but made up for the young lad and his DS.

Let's hope Wiggo delivers in the TT tomorrow.

BMW · « **Reply #2275 on:** July 9, 2012, 11:22:07 AM »

I hope the weather is good and doesn't play apart in the outcome.... is nice weather earlier in the day but rains for the last 20 riders to come out the start house (which usually includes the big race favourites) etc etc.

Crosby Nick · « **Reply #2276 on:** July 9, 2012, 11:24:16 AM »

Pardon my ignorance, I know Wiggins is a very decent time trialist but is he expected to win this today? Or are the likes of Cancellara stronger, even over this longer distance? And is he just expected to put some distance between himself and Evans - and if so, roughly how much damage can he do over 44km?

Raul! · « **Reply #2277 on:** July 9, 2012, 11:26:04 AM »

Quote from: Crosby Nick on July 9, 2012, 11:24:16 AM

Pardon my ignorance, I know Wiggins is a very decent time trialist but is he expected to win this today? Or are the likes of Cancellara stronger, even over this longer distance? And is he just expected to put some distance between himself and Evans - and if so, roughly how much hdamage can he do over 44km?

He was second in the prologue to Cancellara, by 7 seconds so yes, he is a contender.

BMW · « **Reply #2278 on:** July 9, 2012, 11:31:39 AM »

Cancellara is hot favorite at 6/4 but Wiggins is 2nd favorite 9/4

It seems most think it's between them two.....

EDIT: if anyone interested --> http://www.oddschecker.com/other-sports/cycling/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-stage-9-

Crosby Nick · « **Reply #2279 on:** July 9, 2012, 11:32:36 AM »

Quote from: Raul. on July 9, 2012, 11:26:04 AM

He was second in the prologue to Cancellara, by 7 seconds so yes, he is a contender.

I knew that big man - but this is obviously quite a longer course isn't it?

Either way I guess he'd take 2nd and an increased lead over all his main contenders?