Topic: Tough new O-Levels to replace GCSEs under Gove plan

[JonnyDubb]

I don't think it matters whether it's O-levels, GCSEs or whatever. Kids are just getting taught how to pass exams rather than actually learning about subjects. I remember the second half of my last year of GSCEs and A-levels just consisted of going through mock test papers.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

I don't think it matters whether it's O-levels, GCSEs or whatever. Kids are just getting taught how to pass exams rather than actually learning about subjects. I remember the second half of my last year of GSCEs and A-levels just consisted of going through mock test papers.

Quite right who would you blame for this problem?

[SMD]

Immigrant benefit scroungers with Muslamic ray guns.

[Barney_Rubble]

So now you'll have to correctly spell both your first name and your surname?

Ooooh, that'll sort the wheat from the chaff.....

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

Immigrant benefit scroungers with Muslamic ray guns.

should that be Islamic?

[The Gulleysucker]

should that be Islamic?

It's a joke reference to a particularly inane utterance originating in a video interview with a typical fine specimen of the EDL when asked to explain his views.
Amongst many things, he demonstrated with casual ease that literacy and eloquence didn't seem to be his strength.
In fact if I remember correctly, like all of the followers of that nasty organisation I've ever encountered, he seemed to have barely evolved from something normally found growing on a drop of yoghurt left in a petri dish and exposed to the atmosphere of a sewage farm in high summer for a month or two...

[TSC]

I done mine yrs ago, 1990 or something, and found em relatively easy then, except maths.  Managed to get a C grade though which was ok as back then you needed at least a C for it to mean anything.  Got A grades in everything else.  But down the yrs it appears each yr the success rates have gone up every yr, which would indicate either the exams are getting easier or your average 16 yr old is much smarter now compared to 16yr olds yrs ago.

[Tepid water]

I done mine yrs ago, 1990 or something, and found em relatively easy then, except maths.  Managed to get a C grade though which was ok as back then you needed at least a C for it to mean anything.  Got A grades in everything else.  But down the yrs it appears each yr the success rates have gone up every yr, which would indicate either the exams are getting easier or your average 16 yr old is much smarter now compared to 16yr olds yrs ago.

To be honest the first few years of GCSE were much of a muchness with O level

[guernseygareth]

I don't think it matters whether it's O-levels, GCSEs or whatever. Kids are just getting taught how to pass exams rather than actually learning about subjects. I remember the second half of my last year of GSCEs and A-levels just consisted of going through mock test papers.

No offence to anyone but the thing about education is that everyone has been through it, so feels that qualifies their opinion to be of insight. It really irks me when people make such sweeping comments.

I'm a teacher of history and I teach my kids how to pass the exam by covering the topic material in a way that hopefully inspires them and makes them think but shows them exactly what the exam board wants so they can pass those exams well. That is, pupils who are very knowledgeable about the topic and able to construct inquiries by providing and explaining supporting detail which shows clear understanding of conflicting arguments in analysis of a question or interpretation.
So am I creating mindless exam robots or helping provide the subject enjoyment and skills necessary to be an independent and aware citizen?

I can't speak with real authority about other subjects but 'teaching to the exam' should be a goal of any teacher with an externally assessed class in front of them in my department. Society has provided these benchmarks and parents and students trust us to help them do well against them. Of course there are those that do this in the wrong way I can give you the example of a GCSE teacher who sent a crowing email to the whole school about how well their class had done in their recent Controlled Assessment module - and they had done. However those of us that had achieved a relationship with our classes beyond that of simply 'Learn this' knew from the pupils involved that they had been provided with a glowing exemplar of the task and told to basically paraphrase it.

Back OT, Gove is the classic Tory wanting to look conservative, someone who has been through education and believes at least for the soundbite or the faithful that his view has more credence than than that of those actively involved in the issue he is pontificating on. This all smacks of a Tory about turn in the making but no doubt there are plenty of educational reactionaries in Parliament who agree with blanket accusations like 'it wasn't like this in my day - exams are too easy', 'students only learn how to do well in exams', 'too many teachers lack decent qualifications' and so forth.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

No offence to anyone but the thing about education is that everyone has been through it, so feels that qualifies their opinion to be of insight. It really irks me when people make such sweeping comments.

I'm a teacher of history and I teach my kids how to pass the exam by covering the topic material in a way that hopefully inspires them and makes them think but shows them exactly what the exam board wants so they can pass those exams well. That is, pupils who are very knowledgeable about the topic and able to construct inquiries by providing and explaining supporting detail which shows clear understanding of conflicting arguments in analysis of a question or interpretation.
So am I creating mindless exam robots or helping provide the subject enjoyment and skills necessary to be an independent and aware citizen?

I can't speak with real authority about other subjects but 'teaching to the exam' should be a goal of any teacher with an externally assessed class in front of them in my department. Society has provided these benchmarks and parents and students trust us to help them do well against them. Of course there are those that do this in the wrong way I can give you the example of a GCSE teacher who sent a crowing email to the whole school about how well their class had done in their recent Controlled Assessment module - and they had done. However those of us that had achieved a relationship with our classes beyond that of simply 'Learn this' knew from the pupils involved that they had been provided with a glowing exemplar of the task and told to basically paraphrase it.

Back OT, Gove is the classic Tory wanting to look conservative, someone who has been through education and believes at least for the soundbite or the faithful that his view has more credence than than that of those actively involved in the issue he is pontificating on. This all smacks of a Tory about turn in the making but no doubt there are plenty of educational reactionaries in Parliament who agree with blanket accusations like 'it wasn't like this in my day - exams are too easy', 'students only learn how to do well in exams', 'too many teachers lack decent qualifications' and so forth.

A like minded person,

We are given a system that we have to operate in and then get castigated by some in the chattering classes for operating within this system far too well, year on year Teaching improves, Teachers improve, Study Techniques improve, Mentoring is now an important part of the process, so help for each individual student away from the classroom improves, Communication with Parent/Guardians improves, so therefore Grades should and do improve its not rocket science!

We have come along way from the 'open a book at page 138 and copy the text' style of Teaching, there is more discussion, there is more freedom of thought, there is more realisation of how important these GCSE grades are from the Students, they know that to give them a decent foundation for further education or employment that only really 5 A*-C will do and therefore far more motivated to succeed within all the students these days, than say 10/20/30 years ago.

[SP]

Nothing wrong with studying ancient Greek and Latin though

I have Latin and Ancient Greek GCSEs. To be honest both subjects have been considerably more use to me than my Geography GCSE for instance. Most of my English Grammar I learnt from my Classical education rather than being taught in English. How else do you get exposed to the Pluperfect? Just try saying pluperfect without a smile on your face.

Too many people seem to think the purpose of education to learn some facts. Beyond basic literacy and numeracy, what you learn is almost immaterial. The purpose of schooling is to train children to be able to learn. For a career, you must be able to learn new skills. That is what you acquire at school. Being able to cram for an exam is a useful skill, but is probably less valuable than being able to acquire a new skill set and retain it. But as in all things there needs to be a balance. Gove does not do balance. 

The greatest loss to the education system of the past decade has been the erosion of teacher freedom. My best, most memorable lessons at school were when the teachers went off piste. Either because someone had asked an off syllabus answer, or because of something that had hit the news. That spontaneity lends to enthusiasm that is infectious. Learning by rote does not really lead to a deeper understanding, and it certainly does not lead to a passion for the subject.

[SP]

So now you'll have to correctly spell both your first name and your surname?

Ooooh, that'll sort the wheat from the chaff.....

One of my friends at school was severely dyslexic. He could not spell his middle names - he asked me how to spell them for his exam forms...

He took a 100% coursework GCSE English Language and got an A grade. He could never have achieved that with a traditional examined course.  I am ambivalent about the justice of that and certainly don't want to start a Daily Mail style rant on the subject, but in that case the pendulum may have swung too far the other way.

[SMD]

One of my friends at school was severely dyslexic. He could not spell his middle names - he asked me how to spell them for his exam forms...

He took a 100% coursework GCSE English Language and got an A grade. He could never have achieved that with a traditional examined course.  I am ambivalent about the justice of that and certainly don't want to start a Daily Mail style rant on the subject, but in that case the pendulum may have swung too far the other way.

It depends on what you believe the aims of the course are, Jon.

[SP]

It depends on what you believe the aims of the course are, Jon.

Well, the English Language course is an assessment of the literacy of the pupil. As an employer, I would expect someone with an A grade in English Language to be able to produce professional communications - and decent spelling is part of that process. I would probably have less qualms if he got a B.

[SMD]

Well, the English Language course is an assessment of the literacy of the pupil. As an employer, I would expect someone with an A grade in English Language to be able to produce professional communications - and decent spelling is part of that process. I would probably have less qualms if he got a B.

If that was how everyone viewed it then I'd agree with you. Unfortunately one of the issues is that different people interpret the aims differently. Some would argue the purpose of the English Language course is to teach pupils how to articulate themselves in response to different situations, in which case literacy only forms a part of it rather than the crux of the assessment.

[SP]

If that was how everyone viewed it then I'd agree with you. Unfortunately one of the issues is that different people interpret the aims differently. Some would argue the purpose of the English Language course is to teach pupils how to articulate themselves in response to different situations, in which case literacy only forms a part of it rather than the crux of the assessment.

It is just part of it, but it is a part that I would expect to be essential for an A grade student.

[SMD]

It is just part of it, but it is a part that I would expect to be essential for an A grade student.

This is probably just one way how the curriculum can be improved, clearing all this up. I agree with you but some don't.

[redmangaskin]

Hasn't been confirmed yet has it?

Want to resit my exams again as I failed them in school years ago, not sure what to do now if they change it all. Also if they do change it to something harder then the gap for someone like myself from GCSE level to this new one willl be huge.

[SP]

Hasn't been confirmed yet has it?

Want to resit my exams again as I failed them in school years ago, not sure what to do now if they change it all. Also if they do change it to something harder then the gap for someone like myself from GCSE level to this new one willl be huge.

It has not been confirmed, and if they do, rewriting the syllabus will take a significant time. The absolute earliest date for new exams would be 3 years away - and that is assuming that they pass the legislations and finalise the content within the next year. 4 years would be more likely.

[redmangaskin]

It has not been confirmed, and if they do, rewriting the syllabus will take a significant time. The absolute earliest date for new exams would be 3 years away - and that is assuming that they pass the legislations and finalise the content within the next year. 4 years would be more likely.

Thanks. Gives me time then, big change if they do change it. Hope they get it right though, I can see why they want to do it but it'll take a major amount of time to get it right.

[Tepid water]

Hasn't been confirmed yet has it?

Want to resit my exams again as I failed them in school years ago, not sure what to do now if they change it all. Also if they do change it to something harder then the gap for someone like myself from GCSE level to this new one willl be huge.

No, and it won't be.

I suspect that this was a political ploy so that whatever reforms the idiot does release are seen as relatively minor and people don't complain as much.

[SalisburyRed]

The greatest loss to the education system of the past decade has been the erosion of teacher freedom. My best, most memorable lessons at school were when the teachers went off piste. Either because someone had asked an off syllabus answer, or because of something that had hit the news. That spontaneity lends to enthusiasm that is infectious. Learning by rote does not really lead to a deeper understanding, and it certainly does not lead to a passion for the subject.

Absolutely. One of the reasons I enjoyed GCSE History so much was that, aside from finding the syllabus interesting, our teacher was great for going off on interesting tangents, discussing other historical periods, political theory or simply talking about something that had happened recently. Despite being horribly right-wing, he was an excellent teacher (and his set - there were three in the year, all mixed ability - performed the best in coursework and the exams).

[redmangaskin]

No, and it won't be.

I suspect that this was a political ploy so that whatever reforms the idiot does release are seen as relatively minor and people don't complain as much.

Lets hope so, take a long time to plan and put it in place.

[Tepid water]

Lets hope so, take a long time to plan and put it in place.

It will be started in two years.

It will be the usual last minute botch as everything is released to schools a few short weeks before they start the course.


I think the o level CSE stuff is to pander to the Tory/mail/express market as Gove clearly sees himself as the next leader of the Tory party.

[redmangaskin]

It will be started in two years.

It will be the usual last minute botch as everything is released to schools a few short weeks before they start the course.


I think the o level CSE stuff is to pander to the Tory/mail/express market as Gove clearly sees himself as the next leader of the Tory party.

Leaves myself and others who want to go back in to education in a situation. Don't want to resit them and pass and then be told colleges/uni/companys wont accept them. If I wait though the gap between GCSE and the new exams will be huge. Thatcher brought them in and now a Tory goverment has said they ain't good enough, you just know they'll fuck it up and youngsters will get even more frustrated.

[SP]

Leaves myself and others who want to go back in to education in a situation. Don't want to resit them and pass and then be told colleges/uni/companys wont accept them. If I wait though the gap between GCSE and the new exams will be huge. Thatcher brought them in and now a Tory goverment has said they ain't good enough, you just know they'll fuck it up and youngsters will get even more frustrated.

There won't be a huge gap. The biggest difference would likely be the balance between course work and exams. Employers / Uni / Companies will not stop accepting GCSEs - they are currently the standard exam and will remain so until it is replaced.

[redmangaskin]

There won't be a huge gap. The biggest difference would likely be the balance between course work and exams. Employers / Uni / Companies will not stop accepting GCSEs - they are currently the standard exam and will remain so until it is replaced.

Why change them if the gap won't be huge then? I thought o levels are much harder than GCSE's? They need to change certain things but it's important to get it right which I think they won't.

[SP]

Why change them if the gap won't be huge then? I thought o levels are much harder than GCSE's? They need to change certain things but it's important to get it right which I think they won't.

They weren't much harder. They had a a different emphasis which required a different set of skills. Personally I found O levels easier, because I was good at prepping for exams and loathed coursework. But I am unusual in that regard. 

[kesey]

If I remember correctly was'nt it the Tories that changed it back in '88?  That was the year I took my exams and Iam sure we were the guinneapigs.

[redmangaskin]

They weren't much harder. They had a a different emphasis which required a different set of skills. Personally I found O levels easier, because I was good at prepping for exams and loathed coursework. But I am unusual in that regard. 

I see. Coursework was ok depending on the subject.