Author Topic: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?  (Read 2505 times)

Offline BIGdavalad

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Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« on: May 13, 2011, 02:39:02 PM »
George Osborne faced two major crises when he became Chancellor of the Exchequer exactly one year ago. The first of these was national. Britain was close to broke, and so he announced credible plans to tame the deficit. He deserves nothing but praise for this prompt action.

The second crisis was international, and here Osborne has been more cautious and less sure-footed. The origins of this second crisis lie in the collapse of the eurozone. A number of countries, notably Greece, Portugal and Ireland, are in effect bankrupt. Their spending commitments are far greater than their revenues, yet they are unable to raise money in the capital markets to make up the difference. As a result, their only hope of survival is the humiliation of economic bail-out.

Theoretically, none of this should matter to Britain one jot – at least not directly. Mercifully, we did not sign up to the single currency, and are therefore completely independent of the common economic government imposed upon eurozone countries by the European Central Bank from its Frankfurt HQ.

Unfortunately, in practice it matters very much indeed. This is because of the recklessly expensive error made by the outgoing chancellor Alistair Darling around this time last year. Darling’s disaster came on Monday May 10, 2010, when a meeting of European leaders took the momentous decision to launch a 750 billion euro fund, paid for by all European taxpayers, to rescue eurozone countries who met with financial difficulties.

In an action that was entirely characteristic of New Labour’s free and easy way with British taxpayers’ money when it came to the European Union, Darling committed Britain to the bail-out. It was to be his final act as Chancellor. The following day, David Cameron and Nick Clegg reached their historic agreement, and the Coalition was formed.

To be fair to Osborne, he did his best to protest by making clear his opposition to British involvement in the bail-out in a telephone call to Darling. However, critics of the Chancellor, including some in the Conservative Party, feel that he should have been tougher and made clear that when he took over at the Treasury he would have nothing to do with any deal signed by Darling.

But it is easy to understand why Osborne did not take that step. He may have felt that he did not wish to define his Chancellorship by starting off with a blazing row with Brussels. He may well have feared that taking such a drastic measure would have jeopardised the coalition deal with the notoriously europhile Liberal Democrats, then at an especially delicate stage. He may have felt powerless to act. Whatever the reason, Osborne did not attempt to overturn the Darling agreement when he became Chancellor, and we are living with the consequences today.

The first Greek bail-out had already been arranged by the time Darling wrote his blank cheque. But the consequences of his profligacy have since been felt. The Irish bail-out has so far cost Britain some £7 billion (more, in fact, as we also loaned them money on a bilateral basis) while Portugal has cost a further £4.2 billion, though the final sum has yet to be agreed. It is highly unlikely that the British taxpayer will ever again see more than a small fraction of the money we have committed to these two bankrupt countries.

To sum up, so far we have unloaded some £11 billion on the eurozone crisis. This represents a very significant percentage of the so-called cuts which Osborne imposed in last year’s Budget, and which brought hundreds of thousands of protesters on to the streets of London, some of them violent.

Indeed, it is surely surprising that more anger is not felt about the heavy cost of our eurozone commitment. One answer may lie with the BBC’s semi-monopoly of news coverage. On the one hand, its presenters have gone out of their way to emphasise the severity of the Osborne “cuts”, rarely missing an opportunity to give maximum airtime to anti-Government campaigners. On the other, the BBC has consistently minimised the extent of British exposure to the eurozone bail-outs.

But now comes a fresh crisis. It is clear that last year’s Greek bail-out has failed. As could readily have been predicted at the time, the 110 billion euros handed to Greece by the European taxpayer is now lost money. To give credit to George Papandreou, the Greek prime minister, he has struggled manfully to impose the deep cuts he promised. But state revenues have collapsed, in large part because membership of the single currency dooms poor Greece to permanent stagnation and decay. The country has gone beyond recession into depression. Gross domestic product, down 4 per cent last year, is forecast to drop a further 3 per cent in 2011. The authority of the state is in freefall, and many parts of Greece are now lawless. It would be hard to exaggerate the sheer horror of the situation, or the scale of the national suffering.

In dire circumstances such as these, the sensible decision would be to renege on its debts and set the currency free to find a level where economic activity can resume, which in the case of Greece is about one third of where it stands today. Sadly, the European Union has now acquired a demented logic of its own. It is calling for a fresh economic package to enable this unhappy, godforsaken country to remain theoretically solvent. The best estimate I have seen suggests that Greece will need a further 150 billion euros to keep it afloat over the next three or four years.

The reason why the EU is set on this frankly lunatic course is terrifying. The sad truth is that most European banks, including the ECB, are now technically bankrupt. The only way they can stay afloat is by lying about the state of their accounts. So long as Greece, Portugal and Ireland are theoretically solvent, their debt can be marked at par on the banks’ balance sheets. The moment that they acknowledge reality by rescheduling their debt (going bankrupt, in ordinary discourse), the ECB and the rest will be forced into large write‑offs and provisions.

The situation is so serious that one executive board member of the ECB, Jürgen Stark, has warned that Greek debt restructuring could cause a financial disaster that would put the devastation that followed the collapse of Lehman Brothers in 2008 “in the shade”.

This is the hideous background to the meeting of European finance ministers that takes place on Monday and Tuesday in Brussels. As with Portugal and Ireland, Britain will once again be asked to throw good money after bad in order to maintain the blatant fiction that the Greek state – and the rest of the eurozone – is financially sound.

This will give George Osborne an opportunity to remedy Alistair Darling’s mistake of 12 months ago. I understand that he will take it. The Chancellor will argue next week that Britain played no role in the first Greek bail-out, and so the rescue mechanism to which his predecessor mistakenly subscribed does not apply. This is only sensible. Osborne’s fundamental duty is not to ingratiate himself with European leaders – it is to guard the national finances. That means refusing to commit a penny more of British taxpayers’ money to the costly and doomed fight to save the euro.

Telegraph

Obviously the article's fairly biased one way but is it accurate? Is it time for the UK to refuse to pay into bankrupt economies and is this the beginning of the end for the Euro experiment?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 02:41:42 PM by BIGdavalad »
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Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 02:44:44 PM »
Fairly biased?

Say that to people whose jobs that millionaire toff bastard has, effectively, savagely cut.

The Euro is not finished though, I don't think. The whole Worlds economy has been in the toilet for a few years now. It's only a new currency, if it doesn't survive it's simply a victim of a world recession. But I'll be  fucked if the Torygraph and Thatchers children turn this into another way to put the boot into Europe.
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Offline conman

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »

Obviously the article's fairly biased one way but is it accurate? Is it time for the UK to refuse to pay into bankrupt economies and is this the beginning of the end for the Euro experiment?
Your not paying for Bankrupt economies, you are essentially paying German banks for their aggressive and irresponsible lending to hyper inflated economies.

The struggling economies were not allowed burden share, drop the debts or do anything remotely like this. This is the status quo for market collapses. So, In Irelands case, the vast majority of the debts that our nation was forced to accept are being paid right back to Germany plus a huge interest rate so they can profit on us. Will Britain see any profits from this interest rate? Doubt it.


Offline MagicHat

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 05:00:23 PM »
Even if Greece going bankrupt magically affected nothing else other then the banks, what would it do to our banks given the money and loans they have there? Would we be facing a big blow to the banking system again?

If Greece goes bankrupt, what then? Will Portugal and Iceland follow in the aftermath? Then will Spain, Italy, maybe England, suddenly be hit as the markets turn on them? I fear we may get something of a domino effect if one country in Europe goes down, some more may follow. The EU might, just, survive but will be badly damaged but I don't think the fall out would do England much good either. Or maybe I'm just being a nervous nelly on the subject and one or two well organised bankruptcies may help stem the rot.

Either way, I wouldn't envy any Chancellor this kind of decision.

Offline bryanod

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 05:05:21 PM »
Why?
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Offline Slave

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2011, 07:18:48 PM »
I didn't know where to put this, however this thread is relevant enough.

A documentary on the Greek debt crisis, which is put into a global context. With talking heads such as David Harvey and Gerard Dumenil in it, it should be obvious what perspective is taken.

I thought the first 30 minutes was a little muddled, the faulty subtitles seemed to emphasise this, but the whole thing is well worth a watch.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qKpxPo-lInk?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/qKpxPo-lInk?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 12:44:19 AM »
Your not paying for Bankrupt economies, you are essentially paying German banks for their aggressive and irresponsible lending to hyper inflated economies.

The struggling economies were not allowed burden share, drop the debts or do anything remotely like this. This is the status quo for market collapses. So, In Irelands case, the vast majority of the debts that our nation was forced to accept are being paid right back to Germany plus a huge interest rate so they can profit on us. Will Britain see any profits from this interest rate? Doubt it.



to be fair you only had to look at property prices escalating in dublin at an extraordinary rate, high wages too, to see that Ireland was heading for economic disaster. I suspect a number of Irish men and women got very very rich in the good days, leaving their fellow citizens in the shit right now.
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 10:56:21 AM »
Can we please wait until I've taken my kids on holiday to Greece (note August 11th - 21st) so the power's still on, I can have some air-con and the kids can charge their IPOD's, otherwise I might have to speak to them?  Cheers!    :wave
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »
to be fair you only had to look at property prices escalating in dublin at an extraordinary rate, high wages too, to see that Ireland was heading for economic disaster. I suspect a number of Irish men and women got very very rich in the good days, leaving their fellow citizens in the shit right now.

That is true, but it is still the responsibility of banks to pay their debts, as citizens are now being forced to pay. And if the banks cannot pay, then those who made money out of lending to them should be taking the hit, rather than people who had nothing to do with those transactions.

And housing cannot be seen in the same light as any other good, as a person can choose whether to have a tv, car etc. but cannot choose whether or not to have a home. In the absence of secure rental property most people were forced to pay exorbitant prices just to have somewhere to live.
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Offline xerxes1

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 01:18:10 PM »
I think that there can be little doubt that the Common Market that started out, and the EU and Eurozone we have now, have morphed with little consultation, or explanation.

The idea that Greece, an economy based on two things, Athens and Tourism was a good fit for the Euro was always fundamentally flawed. The EU let them in because it was politically, not financially, expedient, and the Greeks were happy to join because they assumed that anyone would be better at running their economy than themselves - and then discovered that it wasn't the EU that were running it, their own corrupt Govt and business were spending the money and landing them with the bill.

There is no easy solution to Greece. Continuing to bail out a basket case economy makes no sense. Politically what is required to straighten out the Greek economy a Greek Govt may not be able to deliver.Yet if they pull out of the Euro the shock waves could provoke another banking crisis as more debts emerge (they always do) either directly as a result of Greek debts, or on a secondary indirect basis as other fragile economies teeter when it becomes apparent that the Euro Money Fairy wont subsidise them on any terms.

In a financial zone the strong always has subsidised the weak  (England v Scotland/ NI/Wales). There is a case  for the Euro to continue to do so for Greece. But the suspicion is that it will just be putting off the day.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 06:37:20 PM by xerxes1 »
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 04:53:28 PM »
I've not read the OP, but in answer to the question - yes, and banks also.
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Offline evenflow

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 12:09:22 AM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13940431


The Greek parliament is debating the latest set of austerity measures, which it needs to pass to qualify for another payment under the bail-out from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.

The five-year plan was changed last week to allow for more money to be raised through tax increases and less money to be saved through spending cuts.

The plan involves cutting 14.32bn euros ($20.50bn; £12.82bn) of public spending, while raising 14.09bn euros in taxes over five years.

These are some of the austerity measures planned.

TAXATION

Taxes will increase by 2.32bn euros this year, with additional taxes of 3.38bn euros in 2012, 152m euros in 2013 and 699m euros in 2014.
A solidarity levy of between 1% and 5% of income will be levied on households to raise 1.38bn euros.
The tax-free threshold for income tax will be lowered from 12,000 to 8,000 euros.
There will be higher property taxes
VAT rates are to rise: the 19% rate will increase to 23%, 11% becomes 13%, and 5.5% will increase to 6.5%.
The VAT rate for restaurants and bars will rise to 23% from 13%.
Luxury levies will be introduced on yachts, pools and cars.
Some tax exemptions will be scrapped
Excise taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will rise by one third.
Special levies on profitable firms, high-value properties and people with high incomes will be introduced.
PUBLIC SECTOR CUTS

The public sector wage bill will be cut by 770m euros in 2011, 600m euros in 2012, 448m euros in 2013, 300m euros in 2014 and 71m euros in 2015.
Nominal public sector wages will be cut by 15%.
Wages of employees of state-owned enterprises will be cut by 30% and there will be a cap on wages and bonuses.
All temporary contracts for public sector workers will be terminated.
Only one in 10 civil servants retiring this year will be replaced and only one in 5 in coming years.
SPENDING CUTS

Defence spending will be cut by 200m euros in 2012, and by 333m euros each year from 2013 to 2015.
Health spending will be cut by 310m euros this year and a further 1.81bn euros in 2012-2015, mainly by lowering regulated prices for drugs.
Public investment will be cut by 850m euros this year.
Subsidies for local government will be reduced.
Education spending will be cut by closing or merging 1,976 schools.
CUTTING BENEFITS

Social security will be cut by 1.09bn euros this year, 1.28bn euros in 2012, 1.03bn euros in 2013, 1.01bn euros in 2014 and 700m euros in 2015.
There will be more means-testing and some benefits will be cut.
The government hopes to collect more social security contributions by cracking down on evasion and undeclared work.
The statutory retirement age will be raised to 65, 40 years of work will be needed for a full pension and benefits will be linked more closely to lifetime contributions.
PRIVATISATION

The government aims to raise 50bn euros from privatisations by 2015, including:
Selling stakes this year in the betting monopoly OPAP, the lender Hellenic Postbank, port operators Piraeus Port and Thessaloniki Port as well as Thessaloniki Water.
It has agreed to sell 10% of Hellenic Telecom to Deutsche Telekom for about 400m euros.
Next year, the government plans to sell stakes in Athens Water, refiner Hellenic Petroleum, electricity utility PPC, lender ATEbank as well as ports, airports, motorway concessions, state land and mining rights.
It plans further sales to raise 7bn euros in 2013, 13bn euros in 2014 and 15bn euros in 2015.
Sources: Reuters, Greek Ministry of Finance Economic Policy Programme Newsletter



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Offline cim-pim-param

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2011, 12:13:41 AM »
Nice.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2011, 12:20:04 AM »
Hello global corporate feudalism :wanker
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2011, 06:50:04 AM »
So Greece defaults on it's loans. What would the banks do? Send in bailiffs to take posession of the Parthenon?
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Offline bryanod

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2011, 01:38:20 PM »
So Greece defaults on it's loans. What would the banks do? Send in bailiffs to take posession of the Parthenon?

Well you already took the elgin marbles :P

Fantastic article which shows why they are where they are....

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2011, 05:26:56 PM »

Offline conman

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2011, 06:04:57 PM »
:o

What.The.Fuck.
indeed, ive read 2 pages so far and im shocked.

Offline SMD

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2011, 06:30:30 PM »
I thought this was common knowledge.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2011, 09:23:57 PM »
Everyone blames Greece, but someone let them in, despite them not meeting the requirements of the euro. And now it's the fault of the Greeks alone. Only now, they can't escape. They will have to stay in the euro, no matter what.

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Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2011, 10:02:01 PM »
What would have happened to Greece if they had never joined the Euro?
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Offline SMD

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2011, 10:19:32 PM »
What would have happened to Greece if they had never joined the Euro?

We'd have had a more exciting final in 2004.
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2011, 10:23:17 PM »
Well you already took the elgin marbles :P

Fantastic article which shows why they are where they are....

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

That article puts things into perspective re the UK for example.  Some ridiculous goings-on in Greece, assuming that article is at least half way accurate.  Question is though, why was it deemed necessary to let 'em into EU?

The original article of course is Tory ridden nonsense - but then it's from the Telegraph.

Offline conman

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2011, 09:21:24 AM »
New deal is a charter for the Fourth Reich
The latest EU bailout for Greece is a master stroke that will make servants of us all, says Frederick Forsyth

IT IS not being widely reported yet, but the document the European powers signed in Berlin last Thursday is in fact the founding charter of the Fourth German Reich.

The ordinary Germans at street level are only protesting because they do not yet realise that. But what has been achieved is a thousand miles beyond a second financial bailout for Greece and it affects the Irish because the land of Brian Boru is perfectly equipped to become the second colony.

This is the way it works. Over a decade, Greece, after joining the eurozone, while not exactly allowed to print its own money, went on an insane spending spree. So did Ireland.

Spending miles beyond what it was earning, Greece, to keep on spending, began borrowing. And it was all so easy. In order to suit Germany, the interest rate was way down below two per cent, making all that borrowed money 'cheap.' The same applied to Ireland.

At least the Irish never stopped working. Indeed they created the Celtic Tiger. The Greeks just created the Hellenic holiday camp. When the bubble burst (and all bubbles burst) Greece had debts it could not even begin to pay back. Hence the panic attending the impossible-to-avoid Greek default. So far so stupid. And all the above the Sunday Independent's readers will already know.

The problem was, Greece simply could not be allowed to default. Those debts had to be paid: somehow and by someone. Why? Because the euro is a massively flawed structure and always was. But like the emperor's new clothes, no one was allowed to say so.

Also disallowed was pointing out that Greece was not alone; and if it went belly up the whole woollen sleeve of pretence was going to unravel. Hence the first €100bn 'bailout' a few weeks ago, largely funded by wealthy Germany.

Now, let us get two things straight. The Germans do not give a monkey's buttock about the Greeks anyway. So 'bailing out Greece' which was what the papers were told to call it, and which they obediently did, was a misnomer.

The money was going (and still is) to all those banks who made the insane loans to Greece, and most of them are (surprise surprise) French and German banks.

The alternative was for the euro to unravel from Athens to Dublin to Lisbon, to Madrid to Rome, costing not billions but trillions and destroying any chance of the European superstate in the process. So a second €100bn 'bailout' was called for and the panic level rose to a crescendo. That was when the street-level Germans and the British government put their feet down.

But it could not be avoided, so eventually a deal was cut. Germany would stump up most of the second mega-sum; Chancellor Angela Merkel would face the rage of her electorate; but there would be a quid pro quo that even the Germans would accept once they understood it. In effect, Germany would run the economies of the eurozones weaklings to make sure it never happened again. Remember the old adage: he who controls the economy controls the country.

In such a situation the controlling country is called the imperial power and the controlled one is called the colony. The Brits know a bit about colonies; let's face it, we had a few. Two hundred years ago keeping control might mean throwing in a few redcoats. Nowadays the threat of ruin is more than enough.

Mind you, Germany's new hegemony will not be presented like that. Much too crude. True, but crude.

In effect the powers have created the European Financial Stability Facility, which sounds lovely. It has been endowed so far with €440bn. Quite soon, within a year, it will develop into the European Monetary Fund, endowed with a 'float' of about €1 trillion, which sounds even lovelier. But with sums like that there is always a catch.

Germany is not Father Christmas and would never dream of putting up such sums either out of brotherly generosity or even to save the EU superstate. It will do it for two reasons.

First, the vast majority is never intended to be disbursed. It will simply be moved from the German Federal Bank to the European Central Bank; a paper transaction between two banks about 500 yards apart in Frankfurt.

Secondly, it will be said that this huge treasure is an available float to reassure the banks (ie the money markets) which it will, that they will all be covered if such a thing as the last two years should ever happen again. Therein lies the hidden sting. The German's intend to ensure that it never happens again. Ever.

And there is only one way to ensure that. Run the joint. So for the weaklings the deal will be put with silken ruthlessness. If you want to remain in the EU you must remain in the eurozone.

To do that you must sign up to the European Monetary Fund. This guarantees that you do not go bust, but it has rules. The first is that you hand over to wiser heads the running of your economy.

You will hand it over to the EMF. But who will really control the EMF? Brussels? No, Berlin. It will be called fiscal (or economic) union but that will only mask Germany's mastery.

Many historians overlook a simple fact about both world wars. They were not just about marching infantry (the first) or rolling tanks (the second). In complete parallel to German aggression in 1914 and 1939 were immensely detailed plans from Berlin's economics ministry for the full unification of Europe's economies. But with strict terms.

Germany does not want your competition in manufactured products. It has enough of its own and more. It needs to export the surplus in huge quantities to keep those factories rolling and the electorate employed and happy. That is best achieved by client states.

It also wants a constant stream of cheap food to fill those 80 million German bellies, the other half of the 'happy electorate' equation. Both are the jobs of colonies: to provide cheap labour, raw materials, agricultural produce and a ready market for the trinkets.

So the arc from Greece (south-east) via Italy (south-central) to Spain/Portugal (south-west) and Ireland (due west) will have to be deindustrialised to fill the role. Actually, it is well under way. All five countries have for some time been undergoing slow de-industrialisation. Berlin's final control of this was sealed last Thursday. And, of course, the EMF will not only fix your borrowing rates to ensure you never go mad again, but also your tax rates.

Now, if there is one thing that has really irritated Germany it has been Ireland's tiny corporation taxes which have drawn billions in investments into Ireland. That is competition, and not the job of a colony. So your taxes will have to rise.

If you disbelieve me, glance at the helpless George Papandreou down there in Athens. A premier in name only. In truth a puppet now, a regional bailiff doing the bidding of others far away.

How ironic that what two years ago seemed possibly to be the death knell of the eurozone has been transformed by German money into the guarantee of the super-state. For Ireland, membership is beckoning ... but only as a servant.

The British, I am surer now than for years, will not go down that road. We no longer want to boss anyone around, but we will not be bullied either. Between a locked-in Europe of forelock-tuggers and the wide open seas, we will, like our fathers, pick the oceans.

Frederick Forsyth is the author of 'The Day of the Jackal', 'The Odessa File', 'The Fourth Protocol' and other bestsellers. and is patron of Better Off Out, a group calling for Britain's withdrawal from the EU.

hoonin

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2011, 09:36:01 AM »
That's a pathetic attempt from Forsyth to mask the economic, industrial and manufacturing failures of the UK.

It's my taxes bailing out the lazy, corrupt and bloated Greeks, so I've no problem if it results in "cheap food" for me belly.

Offline conman

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2011, 09:38:30 AM »
Bailout is not exactly correct though, as a term..
Its a loan, with interest.

But in reference to the greeks, yes its shambolic what has happened, and what was allowed to happen.

hoonin

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2011, 09:42:05 AM »
Bailout is not exactly correct though, as a term..
Its a loan, with interest.

Pedant :D

I'm boycotting Greek produce in my local Rewe from now on!

Offline BvB09

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2011, 09:43:50 AM »
Seems that some people still can't accept the fact that Germany, although it lost both world wars, is now the European powerhouse.
Just deal with it, Mr. Forsyth.
Anyway, I had a good laugh reading that  ;D
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Offline conman

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2011, 09:45:31 AM »
Pedant :D

I'm boycotting Greek produce in my local Rewe from now on!
says RAWK's Jungian psychoanalyst. ;D

hoonin

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2011, 09:46:57 AM »
I'm no Freud ;)

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2011, 09:50:09 AM »
The economic situation in Greece is so bad that all production of tzatziki and taramasalata has been suspended. Its a double dip recession.

hoonin

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2011, 09:59:17 AM »
;D

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2011, 10:00:34 AM »
The economic situation in Greece is so bad that all production of tzatziki and taramasalata has been suspended. Its a double dip recession.

*shakes head*

And that article by Forsyth is ridiculous. Personally I'm still for building a stronger, more integrated Euro-zone.
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2011, 10:16:18 AM »
Personally I'm still for building a stronger, more integrated Euro-zone.

Because it's all going so well for the countries already in the Euro?
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Offline Mrfabulous

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2011, 03:18:58 PM »
New deal is a charter for the Fourth Reich
The latest EU bailout for Greece is a master stroke that will make servants of us all, says Frederick Forsyth

IT IS not being widely reported yet, but the document the European powers signed in Berlin last Thursday is in fact the founding charter of the Fourth German Reich.

The ordinary Germans at street level are only protesting because they do not yet realise that. But what has been achieved is a thousand miles beyond a second financial bailout for Greece and it affects the Irish because the land of Brian Boru is perfectly equipped to become the second colony.

This is the way it works. Over a decade, Greece, after joining the eurozone, while not exactly allowed to print its own money, went on an insane spending spree. So did Ireland.

Spending miles beyond what it was earning, Greece, to keep on spending, began borrowing. And it was all so easy. In order to suit Germany, the interest rate was way down below two per cent, making all that borrowed money 'cheap.' The same applied to Ireland.

At least the Irish never stopped working. Indeed they created the Celtic Tiger. The Greeks just created the Hellenic holiday camp. When the bubble burst (and all bubbles burst) Greece had debts it could not even begin to pay back. Hence the panic attending the impossible-to-avoid Greek default. So far so stupid. And all the above the Sunday Independent's readers will already know.

The problem was, Greece simply could not be allowed to default. Those debts had to be paid: somehow and by someone. Why? Because the euro is a massively flawed structure and always was. But like the emperor's new clothes, no one was allowed to say so.

Also disallowed was pointing out that Greece was not alone; and if it went belly up the whole woollen sleeve of pretence was going to unravel. Hence the first €100bn 'bailout' a few weeks ago, largely funded by wealthy Germany.

Now, let us get two things straight. The Germans do not give a monkey's buttock about the Greeks anyway. So 'bailing out Greece' which was what the papers were told to call it, and which they obediently did, was a misnomer.

The money was going (and still is) to all those banks who made the insane loans to Greece, and most of them are (surprise surprise) French and German banks.

The alternative was for the euro to unravel from Athens to Dublin to Lisbon, to Madrid to Rome, costing not billions but trillions and destroying any chance of the European superstate in the process. So a second €100bn 'bailout' was called for and the panic level rose to a crescendo. That was when the street-level Germans and the British government put their feet down.

But it could not be avoided, so eventually a deal was cut. Germany would stump up most of the second mega-sum; Chancellor Angela Merkel would face the rage of her electorate; but there would be a quid pro quo that even the Germans would accept once they understood it. In effect, Germany would run the economies of the eurozones weaklings to make sure it never happened again. Remember the old adage: he who controls the economy controls the country.

In such a situation the controlling country is called the imperial power and the controlled one is called the colony. The Brits know a bit about colonies; let's face it, we had a few. Two hundred years ago keeping control might mean throwing in a few redcoats. Nowadays the threat of ruin is more than enough.

Mind you, Germany's new hegemony will not be presented like that. Much too crude. True, but crude.

In effect the powers have created the European Financial Stability Facility, which sounds lovely. It has been endowed so far with €440bn. Quite soon, within a year, it will develop into the European Monetary Fund, endowed with a 'float' of about €1 trillion, which sounds even lovelier. But with sums like that there is always a catch.

Germany is not Father Christmas and would never dream of putting up such sums either out of brotherly generosity or even to save the EU superstate. It will do it for two reasons.

First, the vast majority is never intended to be disbursed. It will simply be moved from the German Federal Bank to the European Central Bank; a paper transaction between two banks about 500 yards apart in Frankfurt.

Secondly, it will be said that this huge treasure is an available float to reassure the banks (ie the money markets) which it will, that they will all be covered if such a thing as the last two years should ever happen again. Therein lies the hidden sting. The German's intend to ensure that it never happens again. Ever.

And there is only one way to ensure that. Run the joint. So for the weaklings the deal will be put with silken ruthlessness. If you want to remain in the EU you must remain in the eurozone.

To do that you must sign up to the European Monetary Fund. This guarantees that you do not go bust, but it has rules. The first is that you hand over to wiser heads the running of your economy.

You will hand it over to the EMF. But who will really control the EMF? Brussels? No, Berlin. It will be called fiscal (or economic) union but that will only mask Germany's mastery.

Many historians overlook a simple fact about both world wars. They were not just about marching infantry (the first) or rolling tanks (the second). In complete parallel to German aggression in 1914 and 1939 were immensely detailed plans from Berlin's economics ministry for the full unification of Europe's economies. But with strict terms.

Germany does not want your competition in manufactured products. It has enough of its own and more. It needs to export the surplus in huge quantities to keep those factories rolling and the electorate employed and happy. That is best achieved by client states.

It also wants a constant stream of cheap food to fill those 80 million German bellies, the other half of the 'happy electorate' equation. Both are the jobs of colonies: to provide cheap labour, raw materials, agricultural produce and a ready market for the trinkets.

So the arc from Greece (south-east) via Italy (south-central) to Spain/Portugal (south-west) and Ireland (due west) will have to be deindustrialised to fill the role. Actually, it is well under way. All five countries have for some time been undergoing slow de-industrialisation. Berlin's final control of this was sealed last Thursday. And, of course, the EMF will not only fix your borrowing rates to ensure you never go mad again, but also your tax rates.

Now, if there is one thing that has really irritated Germany it has been Ireland's tiny corporation taxes which have drawn billions in investments into Ireland. That is competition, and not the job of a colony. So your taxes will have to rise.

If you disbelieve me, glance at the helpless George Papandreou down there in Athens. A premier in name only. In truth a puppet now, a regional bailiff doing the bidding of others far away.

How ironic that what two years ago seemed possibly to be the death knell of the eurozone has been transformed by German money into the guarantee of the super-state. For Ireland, membership is beckoning ... but only as a servant.

The British, I am surer now than for years, will not go down that road. We no longer want to boss anyone around, but we will not be bullied either. Between a locked-in Europe of forelock-tuggers and the wide open seas, we will, like our fathers, pick the oceans.

Frederick Forsyth is the author of 'The Day of the Jackal', 'The Odessa File', 'The Fourth Protocol' and other bestsellers. and is patron of Better Off Out, a group calling for Britain's withdrawal from the EU.

Xenophobic nonsense.

Offline BFM

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2011, 03:30:40 PM »
The idea that a country Greece's size could bring down the Euro is laughable, and in my opinion is a smokescreen for hiding economic irresponsibilty in other more 'advanced' nations. The problems that the global economy faces are far reaching and systemic. The countires that have been able to bear the economic crisis have been those with either massive populations that are experiencing economic growth or those with enormous deposits of natural resources, hardly a sustainable model or a result of ingenious economic policy.
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Offline BazC

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2011, 03:43:51 PM »
*shakes head*

And that article by Forsyth is ridiculous. Personally I'm still for building a stronger, more integrated Euro-zone.

It would never happen. It would require fiscal transfers which no one would agree to. I mean look at the whole North vs South thing in *this* country. And we *have* fiscal transfers between the two regions.

Can you imagine how bad it would be if tax earnings in this country were explicitly helping countries like Greece?

It could probably happen in a small set of countries, but not the eurozone as it is now. It's just too different across the whole area in terms of economy, culture, society.


Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2011, 03:47:09 PM »
The idea that a country Greece's size could bring down the Euro is laughable

Greece mightn't on their own. They might be the first shot that bring down Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Italy that brings down the Euro though. German taxpayers will only take bailing out lazy foreigners who can't be bothered collecting any taxes themselves for so long.
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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2011, 03:49:10 PM »
Because it's all going so well for the countries already in the Euro?

Actually for some it is. Some of the newer members are prospering and have low to very low public debt to GDP ratio's (Slovakia, Estonia and to a lesser extent Slovenia). Not to mention the expanding economies of France and Germany.


Offline SMD

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Re: Time for the EU to allow countries to go bankrupt?
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2011, 03:52:01 PM »
The problem with the Eurozone isn't the mechanism, it's - surprise surprise - the politics surrounding it all.
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