Topic: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool

[Zanchent]

Safe standing is as safe as sitting, and quite possibly safer than standing in a seated area. Some people will never believe this, even if there's no stats to prove otherwise.


This will just go round and round and round again. A meeting is a good idea though.

It is much more safe, but people don't want to realise/admit it.

[Velky Al]

It is much more safe, but people don't want to realise/admit it.

Having been to German grounds with safe standing, it was fantastic. Never once did I feel at any risk and the atmosphere was great - not to mention the ticket being cheap as chips in comparison the Premier League.

[Kopite1971]

I'm against the idea of standing, but I would like to go to such a meeting if it can be propally managed and sensitive issues discussed passionately, openly and with the support of the Hillsborough families.  I totally respect Margerat Aspinall's position, I acyually support it myself, but thats not a reason to not have a public debate on this issue

[rednich85]

Totally against this, the notion of 'safe standing' is somewhat flawed. They would benefit from speaking to the 'various Hillsborough groups' and in particular Margaret Aspinall.

How is it 'flawed'?

[rafaslad]

I fully agree with Andy's points mentioned above and I think that he speaks for a lot of people in holding those views.  Having said this, as Ekul said there are other similar situations where the onus is on the crowd to help one another and keep each other safe- for example rock concerts where there aren't that many stewards but things are managed on the whole without misfortune.  The problem I have with it, and I speak as someone who wasn't old enough to stand on the Kop, is its potential disrespect to the families who lost loved ones at Hillsborough.  I can understand the motives behind the movement, in that nationwide there are some attempts to improve the atmosphere in grounds around the country.  But I think there are also a dozen ways to improve atmospheres before standing even needs to be mentioned (lower prices, singing sections being two possible).

[Razorblade]

Totally against this, the notion of 'safe standing' is somewhat flawed. They would benefit from speaking to the 'various Hillsborough groups' and in particular Margaret Aspinall.

No they wouldn't she's not very impartial for obvious reasons which are understandable

[smig]

As much as I full respect the views of those against this, I'm right behind it. I still think it's an unrealistic proposition at this point though.

[Hij]

I would love for something like this to be introduced. The whole Kop stand on European Night's anyway, and there isn't any disrespect meant to the 96, it just naturally seems to happen at big games. I think if we are going to have a proper discussion on it, then one of the things that needs to be mentioned is, how easy is it to police? By that I mean that what is stopping me moving from 205 to 301 to stand next to my mate? I mean I do this on European Night's anyway and find a space - but it needs to be manageable - I can't think off the top of my head how they can ensure the safe amount of people are in each block? If 500-600 people do this, we could end up with too many people in an area - which would lead to it not being safe.

There should perhaps be a trial standing area, with designated spaces for people to stand behind - with no cages at the front, and a absolute maximum number of people (who are counted) allowed in at anyone time.

[The 92A]

Never compromise safety for atmosphere, but don't believe that we should not be able to have a sensible discussion about the merits or not of this

[tea]

With modern technology and common sense, a standing section could be implemented and provide safe  environment to fans. The way people refuse to even acknowledge the idea is just moronic. I think holding an open meeting is a sencible idea to help both parties of the debate understand both points of view and aid progression.

[rednich85]

The way people refuse to even acknowledge the idea is just moronic.

Maybe it is but you can understand peoples reservations, considering our history.

It's a highly emotive topic and one that I feel some people tip toe about.....maybe rightly so.

[Trada]

King Kenny is totally against safe standing and that's good enough for me.

[tea]

Maybe it is but you can understand peoples reservations, considering our history.

It's a highly emotive topic and one that I feel some people tip toe about.....maybe rightly so.

All tragedies hold emotional weight, and rightly so. People lost their lives and we should pay respect and learn from that...but the way terrace standing has been stigmatised over the whole event is irrational. You don't ban roads and cars after a car crash, you look at ways to make driving safer.

[StevenLFC]

Standing should never return. Unfortunately it took 96 of our fans to die before people realised that standing was unsafe. There is absolutely nothing to stop anybody signing when sitting down. Is the generation of atmosphere more important than safety? If you think yes then quite frankly I unapologetically think that you are an idiot.

[Robotforaday]

I personally support safe standing, but I don't think its worth it if it's going to cause upset, and as I've said above I will stand in solidarity with the wishes of the Hillsborough groups.

Nevertheless, while we are discussing the issue, it's worth saying that I think a lot of people do (perhaps mistakenly) think of it as "going back to the bad old days", rather than a new development. If people could see what safe standing actually looks like, saw evidence from the German experience and its safety record etc., I think a lot of fears might be set aside. Essentially, football safety is evolving, and I think this could be the next step in the evolution, NOT a step backwards. So I think the fears of many that "we've learned nothing" if we have safe standing aren't entirely fair - it's a safety development, one which responds to what we've learned at such a terrible cost.

[rednich85]

Standing should never return. Unfortunately it took 96 of our fans to die before people realised that standing was unsafe. There is absolutely nothing to stop anybody signing when sitting down. Is the generation of atmosphere more important than safety? If you think yes then quite frankly I unapologetically think that you are an idiot.

You do realise that the standing proposed is nothing like the cattle dens of the past?

[rednich85]

King Kenny is totally against safe standing and that's good enough for me.

Well done.

Nothing like a bit of free thinking.

[uwinsa]

This might be a stupid suggestion and feel free to say if it is but instead of an open meeting how about an organised debate between both sides, where articulate people can put their side of the arugment for people to listen to.
I don't know if i'm the only one who doesn't know what to think and keeps changing their mind, there are so many different opinions and arguments on both sides it's a really difficult subject

[john_mac]

I think that safety is crucial to the issue & whatever happens this needs to be the most important thing. Hillsborough did not happen has a result of standing, it happened through complacency and a lack of respect for safety, the police, Sheffield Wednesday FC and the local authority all contributed to that day as did terracing and fences.

I'm personally not in favour of standing at the match but you would have to be daft not to see that virtually every away end has fans standing for 90 minutes, which does lead to the question is standing in a seated area inheritantly safe?

I do think that if the FSF want to proceed with pushing for safe standing they will only be able to do so with the support of the HFSG which means that they would need to do something to get them 'on side', they are clearly not so at the moment. Maybe the best way to actually meet and discuss the issues would not be in the form of an open meeting but in a closed forum with reps of the FSF & HFSG, maybe arbitrated by local politicians.

Safe standing, as such, can only work if has not just support but appropriate support. It will only ever receive that support if safety is paramount, the clubs & police cannot be allowed to treat fans with the contempt that they were allowed to in the past. Personally I do not see much difference in policing at football grounds is much than it was prior to 1989. It is the obsession at clubs with turnover which gives me little confidence that safety would be veiwed as paramount in the future, clubs still appear to me to treat fans as the 'cash cow', the same complacency is there at clubs it just appears to me that the complacency now is about cash through tunstiles rather than safety. Seats make it easier for the clubs to be complacent on safety without massive risks.

[rednich85]

This might be a stupid suggestion and feel free to say if it is but instead of an open meeting how about an organised debate between both sides, where articulate people can put their side of the arugment for people to listen to.
I don't know if i'm the only one who doesn't know what to think and keeps changing their mind, there are so many different opinions and arguments on both sides it's a really difficult subject

I think that what you're suggesting is what is hoped for at the gathering.

[rednich85]

I think that safety is crucial to the issue & whatever happens this needs to be the most important thing. Hillsborough did not happen has a result of standing, it happened through complacency and a lack of respect for safety, the police, Sheffield Wednesday FC and the local authority all contributed to that day as did terracing and fences.

I'm personally not in favour of standing at the match but you would have to be daft not to see that virtually every away end has fans standing for 90 minutes, which does lead to the question is standing in a seated area inheritantly safe?

I do think that if the FSF want to proceed with pushing for safe standing they will only be able to do so with the support of the HFSG which means that they would need to do something to get them 'on side', they are clearly not so at the moment. Maybe the best way to actually meet and discuss the issues would not be in the form of an open meeting but in a closed forum with reps of the FSF & HFSG, maybe arbitrated by local politicians.

Safe standing, as such, can only work if has not just support but appropriate support. It will only ever receive that support if safety is paramount, the clubs & police cannot be allowed to treat fans with the contempt that they were allowed to in the past. Personally I do not see much difference in policing at football grounds is much than it was prior to 1989. It is the obsession at clubs with turnover which gives me little confidence that safety would be veiwed as paramount in the future, clubs still appear to me to treat fans as the 'cash cow', the same complacency is there at clubs it just appears to me that the complacency now is about cash through tunstiles rather than safety. Seats make it easier for the clubs to be complacent on safety without massive risks.

Great post on the matter, mate.

I agree with it all, apart from you actually being against standing.

As it is, there are fans up and down the country with scars on their shins from the 'safe' environment they stand in on most away days.

[Zanchent]

Standing should never return. Unfortunately it took 96 of our fans to die before people realised that standing was unsafe. There is absolutely nothing to stop anybody signing when sitting down. Is the generation of atmosphere more important than safety? If you think yes then quite frankly I unapologetically think that you are an idiot.

Shame the lads who travel away didn't realise how unsafe it was on Monday at Fulham, or Arsenal two weeks before, or any other away game for the last ten years.

If people are so concerned for their safety, JUST SIT IN THE MAIN FUCKING STAND.

[Classic goal]

people confuse what the germans currently offer with the terracing we used to have. They are not the same thing. A debate would be great idea but in all honesty (and I don't want this to come across as disrespectful but) I think the views of many are entrenched and non-negotiable - the link with standing and terracing is set in stone - so any new ideas will not be entertained.

To add to the 'debate' my thoughts are that by banning terracing the Taylor report forced clubs to renovate their stadiums and to consider the welfare of supporters - that was a great thing. It made football stadia much safer places to be in. Families can now go the game and for those who go the match and wish to sit down all the way through then they can do so in relative comfort.

The issue for me is at big matches and most away games everyone stands. Standing in seated areas is seriously dangerous, yet we condone it. There is a risk of toppling over the rows and we always come home with wrecked shins and knees. The offer of 'safe standing' is that you still get your designated seat, but you also get the necessary room to stand (you are not penned in) and every row has a rail so you can lean against it and it prevents crushes. I've been to hamburg and the offer in the safe standing areas is far, far safer than what is offered at any premier league away ground.

There were also plenty of seated areas for those who prefered to sit. In England you pay for a seated ticket yet you have no choice but to stand if everyone else does at numerous times during a game.

[TopChed]

Having been to German grounds with safe standing, it was fantastic. Never once did I feel at any risk and the atmosphere was great - not to mention the ticket being cheap as chips in comparison the Premier League.

I wonder how many people who are opposed to safe stands have ever actually experienced it?

[Velky Al]

Unfortunately it took 96 of our fans to die before people realised that standing was unsafe.

The problem with that logic is that if standing is inherently unsafe, as you seem to be suggesting, then the South Yorkshire police bear no culpability for the disaster at Hillsborough.

[kindalen]

for very very secret reasons i cannot, even on pain of death, disclose  to bond baddies or huyton fatties my total support  for never allowing safe standing happen.

[mtred1984]

Standing arenas in the past had one objection, to get as many people in as you can in a single stand.

Now the proposal is to have a stand, with seats, and with each individual seat, there is a standing area directly infront if it (roughly a yard 1/2), with a barrier infront of there seat. The stand will have a maximum seating capacity, just like the kop does now.

There's no fucking difference. Your just getting a yard an a bit infront of you if you wana stand.

The world is health and safety gone mad at the moment. And this is fcking safe. People need to move on from the way they think about things.

[redbyrdz]

King Kenny is totally against safe standing and that's good enough for me.

Apart from that he hasn't said that - he said "terracing", which is quite different.

[Cesar]

is safe standing those flippy chair things, like you get on the front of the 86 bus? but with a barrier in front of them? can't find the pics i've seen before of them.

[StevenLFC]

The problem with that logic is that if standing is inherently unsafe, as you seem to be suggesting, then the South Yorkshire police bear no culpability for the disaster at Hillsborough.

Not at all. There were a number of reasons why the disaster happens. I'm not arguing with anybody's opinions, I'm just pointing out mine. I just don't understand why you need to stand up to create an atmosphere at a game.

[Velky Al]

Not at all. There were a number of reasons why the disaster happens. I'm not arguing with anybody's opinions, I'm just pointing out mine. I just don't understand why you need to stand up to create an atmosphere at a game.

Ever seen a choir sing sat down?

[Torpedo Tommy]

I hope there are no chairs at this meeting.

[rednich85]

How could this be any more dangerous than what is in place?

Its a genuine 'no brainer', as far as actual safety is concerned.

[redbyrdz]

is safe standing those flippy chair things, like you get on the front of the 86 bus? but with a barrier in front of them? can't find the pics i've seen before of them.

Usually in Germany the flippy things get locked up when it's a standing area, the only get turned into seats for european games when standing isn't allowed.

[rednich85]

Usually in Germany the flippy things get locked up when it's a standing area, the only get turned into seats for european games when standing isn't allowed.

I would have no problem taking my lad to a game with a set up like that.

It looks fucking boss.

[Fontaine]

I'm all for "safe" standing, can't see it happening though.  They'll just carry on like they have been, turning a blind eye to standing in every ground in the country.

[Cesar]

Usually in Germany the flippy things get locked up when it's a standing area, the only get turned into seats for european games when standing isn't allowed.

so the only obvious difference really, is there's something to lean on in front of you?

[Trada]

Well done.

Nothing like a bit of free thinking.

No agreeing with someone why is more knowledgeable than me.

[rednich85]

so the only obvious difference really, is there's something to lean on in front of you?

That's the obvious difference between old style terracing and new style terracing?

That is what you see?

[Velky Al]

How could this be any more dangerous than what is in place?

Its a genuine 'no brainer', as far as actual safety is concerned.

And there's plenty of space there for a knee-jerk reaction.