Author Topic: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool  (Read 29222 times)

Offline Tony Clueless

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #760 on: June 8, 2012, 04:10:44 PM »
The sooner standing at the match happens, the better.  Things have moved on.  This country is so H&S concious it boggles the mind.  If it's even being considered, then thats good enough for me  :)

Offline ghirl67

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #761 on: June 8, 2012, 04:11:21 PM »
I've never understood why ticketing systems aren't computerized yet? Just have an electronic door, with one person to oversee it in case it malfunctions (preventing people from filling corridors) - when you get to the door, you stick in a plastic card like they have for almost everything else in the world now (laundry, banks, club cards, etc.) which you "buy" a game on online, at the club shop, over the phone or get "gifted" online. That would prevent over-allocation of areas, preventing at least one of the problems people have highlighted with safe standing. It would also prevent people trying to get into areas which they aren't permitted into.

That explains one of the issues i was wondering about.  All through this thread i have been wondering what people are going on about.  So Anfield still on paper i.e. you still have to hand over to a Steward?

I guess i just assumed since entry is electronic at Parkhead that others had that as well.

All paper tickets (non STH) have a barcode that people have to scan as they go in.  All STH have a card that we scan as we go in.  No Stewards needed...obviously they still check you as you are going in but they take nothing to do with tickets.
« Last Edit: June 8, 2012, 04:14:13 PM by ghirl67 »
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Online mikeb58

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #762 on: June 8, 2012, 04:33:29 PM »
People tend to overlook the perimeter and lateral fencing was a major cause of the loss of live at Hillsborough.

A barrier gave way in the overcrowded Leppings Lane due to human error (i.e lack of Police/Steward control to close off the central pen) and due to Duckenfields oringinal error of opening the exit gate without adequate supervision to control the extra influx of fans.

That barrier itself was stuffed full of old newspapers at some time in the past to 'strenghten' it. The Leppings Lane was an accident waiting to happen.

If new safe standing areas were introduced now into fence free stadiums and were properly policed and monited it'll probably be the safest part of the stadium.

Put it this way, it'd be far safer than standing ( and overcrowding) in a designated seating area, which people freely admit to doing now, which of cause is also illegal as well as dangerous and unfair on those who don't want to stand but can't see a thing because everybody is standing all around them.
« Last Edit: June 8, 2012, 04:36:13 PM by mikeb58 »
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Offline gregor

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #763 on: June 8, 2012, 04:37:03 PM »
That explains one of the issues i was wondering about.  All through this thread i have been wondering what people are going on about.  So Anfield still on paper i.e. you still have to hand over to a Steward?

I guess i just assumed since entry is electronic at Parkhead that others had that as well.

All paper tickets (non STH) have a barcode that people have to scan as they go in.  All STH have a card that we scan as we go in.  No Stewards needed...obviously they still check you as you are going in but they take nothing to do with tickets.

We have exactly the same system at Anfield involving cards, and scanning barcodes on paper tickets, so I'm not sure why the lad you quoted made that point.
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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #764 on: June 8, 2012, 05:02:27 PM »
I'd like to see a few other clubs bring this in, I still haven't seen any genuine safety concerns over safe standing, although I accept that its unlikely to be introduced at Liverpool for the forseeable future due to the perfectly understandable objections of the families of the Hillsborough victims.

Anything which can help improve the rather dismal atmosphere in most modern football grounds can only be a positive from my point of view.

Offline keyo

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #765 on: June 9, 2012, 12:10:08 PM »
just out of interest....what is the cost involved in developing safe standing areas given that most stadiums in england have been developed with seats and entry points aligned to these?  is there any significant cost involved?  is there any additional capacity gained?  in short, is there any compelling reason why any club would consider developing safe standing areas?
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Offline ghirl67

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #766 on: June 9, 2012, 12:41:06 PM »
just out of interest....what is the cost involved in developing safe standing areas given that most stadiums in england have been developed with seats and entry points aligned to these?  is there any significant cost involved?  is there any additional capacity gained?  in short, is there any compelling reason why any club would consider developing safe standing areas?

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal/the-proposal-continued---the-sums

Link originally posted by kopiteWD.

These guys gave a demonstration at Celtic Park a few months ago.

« Last Edit: June 9, 2012, 12:43:50 PM by ghirl67 »
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Offline keyo

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #767 on: June 9, 2012, 01:13:41 PM »
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal/the-proposal-continued---the-sums

Link originally posted by kopiteWD.

These guys gave a demonstration at Celtic Park a few months ago.



thanks for that....not sure i really follow the increase in capacity......does the increase come from greater numbers in each row?  or an increase in rows?  effectively there is still a seat in place, which are usable and are therefore covered by the seating requirements in the green guide they quote........ so how is there a difference between the capacity?  will have to take their word for the estimate for additional revenue per extra fan attending......but costs not included, although i imagine the once off cost would be manageable
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Offline ghirl67

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #768 on: June 9, 2012, 01:32:17 PM »
thanks for that....not sure i really follow the increase in capacity......does the increase come from greater numbers in each row?  or an increase in rows?  effectively there is still a seat in place, which are usable and are therefore covered by the seating requirements in the green guide they quote........ so how is there a difference between the capacity?  will have to take their word for the estimate for additional revenue per extra fan attending......but costs not included, although i imagine the once off cost would be manageable

Basically (i think there is a picture on the right hand side) you can have two people in one spot.  That would only be for domestic games as everyone requires a seat for Europen games. 

Clubs would not need to reconfigure an entire stand in one go.  They can simply reconfigure section by section.  They can monitor demand for safe standing and reconfigure accordingly. 

At Parkhead it is most certain the first area to be converted will be 111, where the GB sit.  They stand every game.  Celtic have had to adapt security in that area of the ground anyway.  Stewards usually have to rotate turns at different areas of the ground.  Celtic have had to make sure that the same Stewards work 111 all the time to prevent people who do not have tickets for that area going over.  A lot of people like to be in that area of the ground becaue it is where the atmosphere generates. 

 http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/scotlandleadstheway-7groundsin5days

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal
« Last Edit: June 9, 2012, 01:39:51 PM by ghirl67 »
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Offline keyo

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #769 on: June 9, 2012, 01:39:57 PM »
thanks for that....not sure i really follow the increase in capacity......does the increase come from greater numbers in each row?  or an increase in rows?  effectively there is still a seat in place, which are usable and are therefore covered by the seating requirements in the green guide they quote........ so how is there a difference between the capacity?  will have to take their word for the estimate for additional revenue per extra fan attending......but costs not included, although i imagine the once off cost would be manageable
ah, gotcha....now see what you mean.......makes sense at that level
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #770 on: June 9, 2012, 03:39:05 PM »
thanks for that....not sure i really follow the increase in capacity......does the increase come from greater numbers in each row?  or an increase in rows?  effectively there is still a seat in place, which are usable and are therefore covered by the seating requirements in the green guide they quote........ so how is there a difference between the capacity?  will have to take their word for the estimate for additional revenue per extra fan attending......but costs not included, although i imagine the once off cost would be manageable

I think (and I may be wrong) that you can get 3 people standing in the space of two seats. So you could have (for example) 30,000 in an all standing stand for league games but you'd have to put the seats down and revert to 20,000 for European games.

Basically there's an extra step when you're configured for standing which doesn't exist when the seats are down.
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Offline mccred

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #771 on: June 16, 2012, 01:09:00 PM »
For us its a real difficult one. But Hillsborough was caused by a whole variety of fuck ups by different people. If it was well policed, we were given enough turnstyles, if the most obvious one of closing the tunnel once the exit gate was opened Hillsborough would never of happened. I got out uninjured, pure blind luck.
But Safe-standing seem to have learned from Hillsborough, they don't want 23'000 people packed onto a terrace designed for 18,000, they don't want fans to be penned in like zoo animals. Personally I'm open to the idea, I was never once hurt on the standing Kop, maybe luck played its part, I don't know but the I have been hurt by the seats on the Kop, grazed shins, jumping up when we've scored, this happen regular. Also sprained my wrist falling over the seats in front of me, also when get carried away when we've scored a big goal.
Safe-standing is what is says safe.
I know this is a hypothetical, but if some nutter planted a bomb in a football ground, and with the fundamentalists out there, not impossible, a stand with no seats in the way could be cleared much quicker.
Wouldn't it be great to stand with your mates again? I think we've learned a lot from Hillsborough about safety in grounds and terracing when properly done can be safe.
Remember back to 89, the police could stop a riot in 5 minutes flat by beating anyone within baton range, police attitudes have been forced to change and learning how to keep large crowds safe is one of them, we were treated like animals back in the day. With Health and Safety in this country reaching the point of sillyness, I think it could work.
It's just my opinion, not here to argue with anyone, just my thoughts on the subject.
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Offline Le Jake

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #772 on: June 16, 2012, 07:53:25 PM »
I'm probably very naive here but what would be wrong with keeping the "seats" but tearing them out, if you know what I mean, and getting designated blocks (so my ticket would be for say... 208) and I could go stand in 208?
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Offline ghirl67

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #773 on: June 16, 2012, 08:22:32 PM »
I'm probably very naive here but what would be wrong with keeping the "seats" but tearing them out, if you know what I mean, and getting designated blocks (so my ticket would be for say... 208) and I could go stand in 208?

The safe standing models allow more space, allow seats to be "locked" for domestic competitions to allow for standing and "unlocked" for European games as Uefa require you be sitting for these games.

Safe standing will be designated blocks as it is highly unlikely any club will convert an entire stadium.  They will gauge demand from their sanding amongst the support and change accordingly. 


 http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/scotlandleadstheway-7groundsin5days

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal
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Offline gregor

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #774 on: June 16, 2012, 10:14:45 PM »
I'm probably very naive here but what would be wrong with keeping the "seats" but tearing them out, if you know what I mean, and getting designated blocks (so my ticket would be for say... 208) and I could go stand in 208?

That's not far off what would actually happen mate. In the models proposed that I've seen, it doesn't look too different to what we have now, the main difference being a barrier between rows to stop people falling on top of each other. So if you've stood in 305 it'll be just like it is now but you wont be cutting your legs up on the seat in front or risking falling over the seat in front/someone falling on you from behind.

Like this:



I find it difficult for anyone to look at that picture and claim that standing in seats (ie what happens now in 305) is safer.
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Offline SkinHimHesShite

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #775 on: June 17, 2012, 12:05:41 AM »


Like this:




the whole kop should look like this.

Offline Le Jake

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #776 on: June 17, 2012, 12:54:33 AM »
That's not far off what would actually happen mate. In the models proposed that I've seen, it doesn't look too different to what we have now, the main difference being a barrier between rows to stop people falling on top of each other. So if you've stood in 305 it'll be just like it is now but you wont be cutting your legs up on the seat in front or risking falling over the seat in front/someone falling on you from behind.

Like this:



I find it difficult for anyone to look at that picture and claim that standing in seats (ie what happens now in 305) is safer.

That would be fantastic, kids down the front so they can see n sing together!
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Offline keyo

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #777 on: June 17, 2012, 07:12:33 AM »
Given that Henry continues to discuss the lack of economic viability of a new stadium, and therefore the redevelopment of Anfield as an altenative, I suspect this may well be discussed at some point......there would be a number of points to get past before it would really come into focus, the first being the views of the hfsg and other groups....the second being economic viability, which although discussed above may come into sharper focus given henry's comments on increasing "revenue per seat".....increased capacity should bring greater revenues, and more high profile games (CL) will bring greater revenues too, and more corporate boxes will help raising average revenues, the focus won't necessairly be on lower price ticket areas, will be interesting how fsg view the whole thing
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Offline DutchRed

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #778 on: June 17, 2012, 08:45:50 AM »
It will have to be well and truly safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdpzXXKpp8&feature=related

I have seen the Fairclough winner a lot of times. The Kop gave me goosebumps on that video, but it also scared me to see how it moved right after the third goal. That really is unsafe for me.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #779 on: June 17, 2012, 09:25:56 AM »
I still have issues with the visibility of those safe standing seats for when you have to sit (European matches), it looks like that main bar would totally get in the way. Surely must be a way to make the support bar removable.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #780 on: June 17, 2012, 11:35:18 AM »
It will have to be well and truly safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdpzXXKpp8&feature=related

I have seen the Fairclough winner a lot of times. The Kop gave me goosebumps on that video, but it also scared me to see how it moved right after the third goal. That really is unsafe for me.

Well it will not mean a return to that, the old standing kop.  Hence the term 'safe standing'.

Offline Crosby Wych

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #781 on: June 17, 2012, 01:21:26 PM »
I still have issues with the visibility of those safe standing seats for when you have to sit (European matches), it looks like that main bar would totally get in the way. Surely must be a way to make the support bar removable.

In fairness though I imagine most places that would have the safe standing would end up standing in European Matches anyway, just as they do now, regardless of UEFA regulations.
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Offline mccred

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #782 on: June 17, 2012, 01:31:21 PM »
Great memories seeing the Kop moving in waves like that, used to leave soaked in sweat! But no-one is advocating to a return to terracing like that.
I do wonder about the view as well, with the safety bars when your sat for the European games. Would guess the Germans have that one worked out?
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Offline SalisburyRed

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #783 on: June 17, 2012, 01:50:34 PM »
I still have issues with the visibility of those safe standing seats for when you have to sit (European matches), it looks like that main bar would totally get in the way. Surely must be a way to make the support bar removable.

Would people not just continue to stand anyway?

Offline Crosby Wych

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #784 on: June 17, 2012, 01:57:10 PM »
Great memories seeing the Kop moving in waves like that, used to leave soaked in sweat! But no-one is advocating to a return to terracing like that.
I do wonder about the view as well, with the safety bars when your sat for the European games. Would guess the Germans have that one worked out?
Just because you're meant to be seated doesn't mean you will be seated, take a look at what happens in European games on the kop at the moment (or did do :( )
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Offline JayEvans

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #785 on: June 17, 2012, 08:22:36 PM »
I want to see safe standing but unfortunately i cant see it happening.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #786 on: June 17, 2012, 10:31:17 PM »
It will have to be well and truly safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdpzXXKpp8&feature=related

I have seen the Fairclough winner a lot of times. The Kop gave me goosebumps on that video, but it also scared me to see how it moved right after the third goal. That really is unsafe for me.

I never felt anything other than safe on the kop. There was always ten pair of hands if it even looked like you were going down.

But safe-standing isn't that. Nothing like it.

As for the bar getting in the way of seeing when seated, I can't see why it couldn't be lowered for seating matches (rather than removed) which might make the standing when you should be seated problem theoretically safer.

I'd rather see enforced sitting at a CL game if it meant I could stand generally.


I'm probably very naive here but what would be wrong with keeping the "seats" but tearing them out, if you know what I mean, and getting designated blocks (so my ticket would be for say... 208) and I could go stand in 208?

There are two designated spaces in safe standing (208A and B). In a sitting match, B doesn't get a ticket.


just out of interest....what is the cost involved in developing safe standing areas given that most stadiums in england have been developed with seats and entry points aligned to these?  is there any significant cost involved?  is there any additional capacity gained?  in short, is there any compelling reason why any club would consider developing safe standing areas?

Standing is twice as many people as sitting but people won't pay as much to stand as to sit.

The terracing has to be at the right angle and have the right step depths (and the right number of exits etc etc) otherwise plenty of cost.

.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 10:40:55 PM by Peter McGurk »

Offline mccred

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #787 on: June 18, 2012, 10:07:00 AM »
Just because you're meant to be seated doesn't mean you will be seated, take a look at what happens in European games on the kop at the moment (or did do :( )

Oh yeah I know that but theoretically they have to be designed so you can see if people did sit. I always try and go in the 300's so I can stand anyway, but last year selling all the tickets at once fucked that for me cause didn't know which games I could and couldn't attend so far in advance and couldn't afford to pay for half a season in one go anyway for me and the misses. Guess it was a good system for some people and shite for others. Really hope they scrap it this year or have they already said their doing it again?
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Offline mccred

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #788 on: June 18, 2012, 10:16:59 AM »


Peter, I've seen your posts in the new ground forum, and you obviously know a great deal about grounds and their design. Would the Kop be suitable for a straight conversion or would a lot of work be needed?
Like you say, I never once felt unsafe in the Kop in the old days and at times it was fucking packed but like you said if someone was going down, everyone around them would grab a hold quickly, but that's obviously not what were talking about going back to. Used to see a fair few being passed overhead cause they'd passed out or what ever, in order to get them to the St Johns Ambulance people.
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Offline hedger

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #789 on: June 18, 2012, 12:00:58 PM »
Could it be done at the kop and anfield road ends? Assuming we can redevelop & expand the main stand what capacity would that increase anfield to?

Offline southport_fan

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #790 on: June 18, 2012, 12:29:14 PM »
To be honest whether we all want to stand or sit is irrelevant. We need to do what is safest for our fans. I genuinely feel like that is safe standing.
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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #791 on: June 18, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »
When the old standing Kop was no more its capacity was reduced to 16k, in its heyday it officially held 28k.

I lived through all the various capacities and knew what to expect and how to behave/react, I never once felt in danger.

Those days of huge terraces of course will never return, but standing in a 16k kop was probably as safe as it gets, basically it held room for 12k more.

So in my opinion safe standing terraces on a much smaller scale are easily manageable because I reckon we've already had one at Anfield on a much larger one.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 01:19:14 PM by mikeb58 »
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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #792 on: June 18, 2012, 08:30:20 PM »
Who, in a position of authority, is currently opposed to safe-standing sections and why?  I am unable to find a single reason against it and I don't see why it would be against the interests of the clubs, the FA or the government to allow it.  The only reason I can think of is structural inertia.
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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #793 on: June 18, 2012, 09:58:04 PM »
Most if not all of the questions being asked, have already been discused and answered in this thread already, if most of you woul;d care to read some of the previous pages from the start.  ::)

But briefly.


To have a safe standing area with seats that can be lowered or locked in the up position, when required, have a ratio of seating to standing of something like 1-1.2 or 1-1.5.  That means in any given space, for every seated individual, there would be space for  standing people of 1.2 people or 1.5 people.

So a seating are with 1,000 people would accomodate 1200 or 1500 standing.


The current Kop is NOT SUITABLE for conversion, as the rake of the stand (the angle of the steps) is too shallow to accomodate the safe standing design.

That means for the Kop to become a safe standing stand, it would have to be redesigned and rebuilt.


If building a new stand like the Anny Road, then with the right design and rake of terrace, a safe standing design could be implemented.........but*


*There is current legislation in place that does not allow football teams in the top tier of the English game to have standing terraces.  The stadia MUST be all seater.

Until that legislation is amended or overturned, then it's a none starter.



Which brings me on to Liverpool Football Club.

On consulting fans on such matters, it would seem that all fans are equal, but some fans are more equal than others.

The first port of call for the club is the HFSG. If they don't want it ( and they've been very vociferouly against it ) then it's never going to happen at Liverpool, as quite simply, mine, yours, or nobody else's opinion, is ever going to be consulted or considered.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:04:21 PM by Big Red Richie »

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #794 on: June 19, 2012, 09:11:03 AM »
I think the Liverpool fans who want this need to set up a meeting one of the Hillsbrough groups. While the Hillsbrough groups are saying no it won't happen. I suspect that they will only listen, at least in the first intance, to Liverpool fans only. By all means bring along an FSF rep to help and advice on structuring the meeting, but it has to start here.

 

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #795 on: June 19, 2012, 09:35:26 AM »
I thought the Kop was 24 degrees and that is the required rake for safe standing?

Either way it wouldn't be a MASSIVE job to fix it, certainly not rebuilding the whole stand anyway.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #796 on: June 19, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »
Who, in a position of authority, is currently opposed to safe-standing sections and why?  I am unable to find a single reason against it and I don't see why it would be against the interests of the clubs, the FA or the government to allow it.  The only reason I can think of is structural inertia.

The Taylor Report and the FA as licensing authority for stadia (see below)



The current Kop is NOT SUITABLE for conversion, as the rake of the stand (the angle of the steps) is too shallow to accomodate the safe standing design.


The regulations for standing in the UK (which do exist and are current and do apply in lower divisions) allow about twice the number of people to stand as can sit in the same area. Actually more than twice.

That is not to say that the safe-standing rail system we’re talking about here would achieve twice the number (because it also has the space needed for the folded up seat). Perhaps it is 1.2 - 1.5 but at the biggest ratio a 19,000 Kop would be pretty useful.

Other systems may be possible - where the seats are put in for the up to five or six games a season in Europe for example but nevertheless within the current UK safety regulations, you can get pretty much double.

***

The rake of the Kop is one degree lower than the maximum allowed for standing under the same regulations and would therefore comply. Note that shallow stands are ok to stand in. Steeper ones (steeper than 25 degrees) are not. There may be an issue with tread depth depending whether the Kop would be considered as existing or new for this purpose. Subject to that I can't see why it can't be done physically.

***

There is another tier to the regulations. The FA are the licensing authority and they have enforced a recommendation of the Taylor Report for all seater stadia in the upper divisions. The purpose of that recommendation was to gain control of numbers and placement of fans in the ground. As the Taylor Report says, poor decision making and the lack of control caused Hillsborough - NOT standing.

As far as I can tell the HFSG are unapproachable on the subject and there seems little point in trying. They will not hear anything about it and are not prepared to discuss it.

To my mind, to suggest that standing caused Hillsborough deflects the blame from the real cause. Poor decision making and a lack of control by the police and stadium managers and the poor and unsafe facilities at the ground.

Also to my mind, this safe-standing rail system achieves everything that the Taylor Report wanted. Each standing space is numbered and ticketed, names & addresses are known, ticket checking systems are in place, the crowd is evenly-distributed, it is monitored centrally and stewarded in the ground with communication between the two, the right number of exits and entrances are provided...

***

It was a mistake to prescribe any one solution (and the seating solution has ultimately been to the detriment of the fans) rather than to simply regulate a requirement for the fans to be safe and to provide 'deemed-to-satisfy' guidelines (such as compliance with the Green Book Safety Guidelines (sitting or standing).

.



« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:10:57 AM by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #797 on: June 19, 2012, 09:54:16 AM »
Have either of you two who are sniping about the HFSG actually approached them about this?
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #798 on: June 19, 2012, 09:58:53 AM »
Have either of you two who are sniping about the HFSG actually approached them about this?

Margaret Aspinall was quite clear what she and the HFSG thought about it at the last memorial service. She also said:

"There is no place for standing in modern football and I cannot comprehend why people want to go back to how it was in the 1980s. It is both insulting and insensitive to suggest that it is a good idea, particularly knowing there has never been any accountability for what happened at Hillsborough in April 1989.

I have had the argument about what happens in Germany thrown at me before, when people have raised the idea about bringing back standing in England.

Well, what people in another country do is their own affair.

We have had two tragedies at grounds with standing terraces in Great Britain - 96 football fans never returned home from Hillsborough, 66 lives were lost at Ibrox.

When I talk about never bringing standing back to football grounds here, I am thinking about my children and grandchildren going to games. They should never be put in a position of how it was in the 1980s."



But this is not about going back to the 80s...


...Like you say, I never once felt unsafe in the Kop in the old days and at times it was fucking packed but like you said if someone was going down, everyone around them would grab a hold quickly, but that's obviously not what were talking about going back to. Used to see a fair few being passed overhead cause they'd passed out or what ever, in order to get them to the St Johns Ambulance people.

That is the point safe-standing people make. This is not old-style terracing.


I should add that I would talk to Margaret Aspinall or HFSG about it but there doesn't seem to be anyway of making an approach without seeming disrespectful.

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« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:07:35 PM by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool
« Reply #799 on: June 19, 2012, 12:18:38 PM »
Let's not forget about the 2 other Hillsborough organisations in this debate, as ever their opinion appears to be dismissed/overlooked.
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