Topic: Safe Standing Meeting Liverpool

[redbyrdz]

it is a contradiction and i would be against anything that condoned or even allowed people to move from around like that. You shouldn't be allowed to to just wander to whatever space you want. You get your seat number and you should stay to it.

what extra fans? they would probably have to reduce capacity to do this. and if a stand isn't suitable for standing e.g. if the rake of the stand is too steep/too shallow, then they shouldn't put in safe standing there.

It might acutally depend on the ground to be honest. When I've been to games in Germany, there was an additional ticket check inside the ground once you entered the stand. The stand consisted of different blocks, and you'd show your ticket on entry of the block, but I can't recall being arsed about which row/seat I had to go afterwards. It might just be that nobody cared, or that you weren't really allocated a specific one, i can't really remember. The blocks were quite small though in comparison to our stands, so it was easier for the stewards to make sure there's no overcrowding in them. It is a lot like going to an away match here, in terms of being in a smaller area and people moving about to stand with their mates.

In terms of capacity, the German grounds have higher capacity with standing than without. For example, Dortmund's ground has just over 80.000 capacity for domestic games and 65.000 for internationals, when they have to put seats in (i think they don't use those flipper/rail seats, they put proper seats in when they have to do it).

[Classic goal]

Yes you can get two people per row cos there is two steps but there is only one seat = which should equal one spec. That should mean a reduction in capacity.  For instance there are approx 12000 seated in the kop (one spec on one step) i think if you put the new model in, covering the whole kop, you'd have a capacity of approx 6000.

No matter how the debate goes i dont think its a goer for cost reasons alone.

you don't necessarily have to strip out every other row to accomodate this. The photo on the previous page my guess is that it is an old terrace that has been modified for safe standing. The steps are not very big. In England  all grounds are designed to accomodate seats so the steps (or space between each row) are a bit deeper to allow you to see over the head of the person in front you. There is also more legroom in the newer stadia which provide more standing area. In some areas of the new grounds all you'd need to do is put in the rails in front of each row. I think that if the safest aspect, if you are going to stand you want a rail at waist height to protect you rather than plastic seats at shin height.

I agree though that where current stadia could not implement safe standing now then clubs may baulk at the costs if serious modification was required or too many seats had be removed. That would be for the clubs to decide on an economic level. The debate at least should be had. This does have merits and many still think it means terracing.

[merseymack]

I'd like standing on chairs. I'm a bit like master spearing, however, i think safety is not entirely down to seating arrangements. Stopping treating people like fucking cattlle did the job. justice now.

[uwinsa]

I'd like standing on chairs. I'm a bit like master spearing, however, i think safety is not entirely down to seating arrangements. Stopping treating people like fucking cattlle did the job. justice now.

Standing on chairs really would be dangerous!

[redmachine]

Thankfully this will never, ever, happen.

[Velky Al]

Thankfully this will never, ever, happen.

I think it should be up to the clubs themselves if they want to install these kind of areas. If the high ups at Anfield decide it is not for us then fair play to them, but other clubs should be allowed to do what their fans feel is best.

[Classic goal]

It might acutally depend on the ground to be honest. When I've been to games in Germany, there was an additional ticket check inside the ground once you entered the stand. The stand consisted of different blocks, and you'd show your ticket on entry of the block, but I can't recall being arsed about which row/seat I had to go afterwards. It might just be that nobody cared, or that you weren't really allocated a specific one, i can't really remember. The blocks were quite small though in comparison to our stands, so it was easier for the stewards to make sure there's no overcrowding in them. It is a lot like going to an away match here, in terms of being in a smaller area and people moving about to stand with their mates.

In terms of capacity, the German grounds have higher capacity with standing than without. For example, Dortmund's ground has just over 80.000 capacity for domestic games and 65.000 for internationals, when they have to put seats in (i think they don't use those flipper/rail seats, they put proper seats in when they have to do it).

fair enough, i went once but i was extremely impressed with it. We had our seats/space and that suited me. That's why I assumed you were contradicting yourself so my apologies. Maybe the additional check was to count the numbers going into each block as they knew people would move around? I preferred having an assigned space like it is with the seating here.

[Holden Caulfield]

Please.

No.

[Narya]

I have to say, having visited stadiums with standing areas all my life I don't see where the problem is with safe standing. It's safe (duh), it's so much more fun (I hate constantly having to jump up and sit back down when I do have a seat), it works in so many different countries, and in my eyes the main problem was the fences preventing people from getting onto the field if there really is an emergency. As that's not the case in England I honestly don't understand why it couldn't be introduced. Most of the time everyone's standing in front of their seats anyway.

And because it was discussed above, in Germany you definitely aren't assigned a standing place, you go wherever you want to go (in the block your ticket is for).

[xerxes1]

The principle is fine.

The practicalities are a no-no.

[Velky Al]

The principle is fine.

The practicalities are a no-no.

If the principle is fine then surely the practicalities can be worked out?

Is it more of a case that the principle is fine, but the will to actually work it out doesn't exist? At least, not at Liverpool.

[Trada]

Are you incapable of speaking for yourself?

Yes why?

[redbyrdz]

And because it was discussed above, in Germany you definitely aren't assigned a standing place, you go wherever you want to go (in the block your ticket is for).

Cheers. Was doing my head in that i couldn't remember.

[DangerScouse]

Standing should never return. Unfortunately it took 96 of our fans to die before people realised that standing was unsafe.

It was the incompetence of the police on the day that led to massive overcrowding which resuted in the tragic deaths of the 96, not the fact that people were standing. I'm all for safe standing personally, i stand at every match i'm at, and never feel unsafe, but i do understand and totally respect the opinion of people who are against it.

[Stanfo]

Thankfully this will never, ever, happen.

I agree that it will never happen again in this country, personally I don't care either way, however to say it is because of safety concerns after Hillsborough seems strange to someone who was on the Leppings Lane terrace on the day of the disaster and yet was allowed to stand in the Stretford End a couple of weeks later for the semi as well as on the Kop for the next 4 years.

How were we allowed to do this for so long if terracing was so dangerous, how did Kenny and the Hillsborough Groups allow this to happen for so long, surely not for financial reasons that would have occured if every terrace was closed straight after Hillsborough. A genuine question, as I can't remember, was Margaret Aspinall as forthright and vociferous in her views during the period 1989-94 when the Kop was still a large terrace as she seems to be now.

As someone who saw too many dead bodies at football grounds in the 80's I am happy to sit and watch my football, however many things caused these disasters and using the notion that terraces were the only factor is just wrong.

[TheTeflonJohn]

It was something i previously wanted.I stood on the old terraced Kop,loved the fact you could go wherever you wanted.My grandad stood at the very back near the skylights taking in a bag of chips before the game.I could join him there but more often than not went in the little balcony part right in the corner.Where you could see everyone bouncing up and down(Usually happening when we scored and everyone singing Liv-er-pool)

However seeing the emotion from the lady who spoke at the recent memorial service and her thoughts about if that the ones who perished were a sacrifice so that the rest of us could attend football matches in safety.I pretty much changed my mind of the spot.

Was that the pigeons nest as I seem to remember. I started going in the Kop on my own when i was around 11 and as I was short arse I used to get the ground about 4 hours before kick and be one of the first in so I could right at the front of the pigeons nest. Great times ( I know I`ve just gone off topic from the point of the thread)

[john_mac]

I agree that it will never happen again in this country, personally I don't care either way, however to say it is because of safety concerns after Hillsborough seems strange to someone who was on the Leppings Lane terrace on the day of the disaster and yet was allowed to stand in the Stretford End a couple of weeks later for the semi as well as on the Kop for the next 4 years.

How were we allowed to do this for so long if terracing was so dangerous, how did Kenny and the Hillsborough Groups allow this to happen for so long, surely not for financial reasons that would have occured if every terrace was closed straight after Hillsborough. A genuine question, as I can't remember, was Margaret Aspinall as forthright and vociferous in her views during the period 1989-94 when the Kop was still a large terrace as she seems to be now.

As someone who saw too many dead bodies at football grounds in the 80's I am happy to sit and watch my football, however many things caused these disasters and using the notion that terraces were the only factor is just wrong.

I think that fences were originally seen as the issue rather than the notion of terracing. It was the fences that immediately came down. It was only with the publication of the Taylor report that the debate moved onto terracing and the clubs were given a set timescale to move towards all seater stadia. Even then there had already been a move towrads more seating prior to Hillsborough, the Paddock & Annie Road, for example, being transformed from terracing to seats.

[a former tribune of the plebs]

I really resent the implication that I am insulting the families of those who died at Hillsborough because I want to stand at the match.

There's been some very ignorant views on this thread - standing did not cause Hillsborough. In any case, no one is asking for a return to a late 80s terrace.

[Paul_Nudge]

This is a very emotive subject, obviously, but I am for it. I would love there to be a standing Kop again. Its hard to put an argument forward without offending someone or someone being offended by it. Certainly, I don't mean to offend anyone from HFSG, but it should be remembered that Hillsborough wasn't down to standing. We all know why Hillsborough happened.

However, if the HFSG are completely against it, I think it would be wrong to pursue it, especially because the idea will probably be rejected by the powers-that-be in the long run anyway.

I think safe standing is absolutely more than possible. But I also take Andy@Allerton's point about making the atmosphere in the current arrangement.

[RigBon1892]

King Kenny is totally against safe standing and that's good enough for me.

I could well believe Gerrard is too.

Croke Park doesn't use safe standing in the way that Germany does and for the most part there haven't been any problems barring pitch invasions (which involves the other stands too) although they now (COMPLETELY disregarding safety) have placed a perspex barrier on the terrace.

I can't see it happening in this country for a long time though and given what's happened in our club it's understandable why.

[Andy @ Allerton]

I wonder how many people who are opposed to safe stands have ever actually experienced it?

I've been to Germany. I've experienced it. I'm completely against it in this Country.

[cullinp]

If nothing else the thread has started a conversation that for obvious and understandable reasons is a very difficult one to approach in relation to our club. For that alone I applaud the FSF.

My personal view has already been mentioned by others, we already stand, we will do on Sunday, we will at Villa the week afterwards......I've cut my shins and knees celebrating goals, gone over the seats in front of me on top of other lads (Istanbul!!).

Technology, innovation I'm all for it personally, what is being discussed here is taking what happens week in week out at most Premier League grounds and making it safer. That's a long way from going back to the dark days that have gone by.

[LiverpoolForever]

I've been to Germany. I've experienced it. I'm completely against it in this Country.

Andy , intresting you have stood in Germany.

Couple of questions if i may. Does it work very well in Germany? Why are you against it here if it does work well in Germany?

[Andy @ Allerton]

were you at athens?

i'm sure its hunkydory if managed correctly, but quite clearly you can have excessive amounts of people in each and every row, unless there's a way to prevent that.   

Athens was mental. Nearly had a fight with a dickhead in my seat and a couple of my mates got snotted by Liverpool FC twats that had got in their 'bit' and refused to move. With seats, everyone goes to their seat as it's obvious if you are being a twat. With 'safe standing' areas, in a cup final all the fucking gobshites would be (like in Athens and in Germany when we've gone there) be all over the fucking place.

[Andy @ Allerton]

You have numbered tickets exactly as we have now when everyone stands in front of their seat on the Kop.

I personally don't see how this is any more dangerous than a big European night at Anfield with everyone stood in front of their much smaller, much easier to fall over, much less safely set out plastic seat. The Kop has x,000 safe standing spaces, x,000 tickets are sold for the Kop and only x,000 people can enter the Kop. It's not really any more likely that you'd get excessive numbers in a single row than it is now in a big game with everyone standing. How would the stewards stop that now? Whatever they'd do now would be what they'd do for safe standing in the (potential) future.

On a big night all the dickheads will stand where they fucking feel like and the Stewards and the like won't be any the wiser. Also offers the potential for people to bunk in - No point doing it in an all seater - plenty of reason when you can just make everyone 'budge up'. If people think this won't happen then I admire your belief. It's wrong. But great.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Andy , intresting you have stood in Germany.

Couple of questions if i may. Does it work very well in Germany? Why are you against it here if it does work well in Germany?

I had a few problems a couple of times with tits who didn't want to be in their bit (Which was further back) because the designated seating doesn't really work - you can stand where you want and no one knows. People just 'bunch up' and all the lads with mates move around during the match to be near each other. So that obviously is a bit fucking annoying when they're all over the place.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Yep fair enough I agree with the money problems etc. But if they generate extra money from the extra fans in the ground then it shouldn't be too bad.

So jam them into the rafters for money?

Fucks sake.

[BIGdavalad]

How will bunking into the stadium be any easier though? You've still got to get through the stewards outside, the turnstiles etc etc. So long as the security outside/around the turnstiles are on the ball there's no reason why any more bunkers would get in to a 'safe standing' area than a seating area.

If there was a big European night, Chelsea 2005 for instance, and everyone was standing anyway how would the stewards prevent everyone bunching in or standing where they like then? Why couldn't the same system work in a properly policed safe standing area?

[Paul_Nudge]

I'm intrigued, perhaps naively I suppose, to how someone could bunk in nowadays?

[Andy @ Allerton]

How will bunking into the stadium be any easier though? You've still got to get through the stewards outside, the turnstiles etc etc. So long as the security outside/around the turnstiles are on the ball there's no reason why any more bunkers would get in to a 'safe standing' area than a seating area.

If there was a big European night, Chelsea 2005 for instance, and everyone was standing anyway how would the stewards prevent everyone bunching in or standing where they like then? Why couldn't the same system work in a properly policed safe standing area?

Dave. Let's say you bunk into the Kop. Let's say you're in Block 205. Let's imagine you want to watch the match. If you loiter anywhere, a steward will come over to you and ask why aren't you in your seat? You will have to produce a ticket and if you try and blend into where someone is sat, obviously there will be murder. The stewards will be over and you will be out of the ground.

In a 'safe seating' environment, let's say you manage entry to the ground. You blend in with the people already there, everyone moves up. No one is the wiser. How many people get in and blend in before it becomes a problem? How long til some mates see each other and push into one area to 'be together'

Doesn't sound a good idea to me.

I'm concerned with safety. Someone said before 'There are acceptable risks'

I'd say: FUCK. OFF. If ONE fan dies over the next 50 years due to 'Safe Standing' that's one fan too many. Full stop.

[Andy @ Allerton]

I'm intrigued, perhaps naively I suppose, to how someone could bunk in nowadays?

It doesn't happen nowdays because there is nowhere you can stand. If it were possible to get in and blend in then it will happen somewhere. Not everyone is 100% honest and there are ways and means. You stand out like a sore thumb at the moment if you bunk in. With 'safe standing' who would know?

[a former tribune of the plebs]

Why do you want everyone to be allocated a space in a safe standing area?

[Andy @ Allerton]

Why do you want everyone to be allocated a space in a safe standing area?

What?

[BIGdavalad]

But how would you catch a bunker at a big game when everyone's stood up? Surely a proper security system outside, around the turnstiles and inside the stand should catch all but the most ingenious bunker before they even see a seat/standing area?

What if (God forbid) when we play Spurs on Sunday someone goes over the seat in front celebrating a goal, cracks his head on the steps or the seat two rows ahead and dies? Does that make a seating area inherently dangerous? Simply having 40,000 people in the same building is a risk in itself, the question is can the risks be managed to an acceptable degree in a safe standing area? In some ways safe standing seems clearly safer to me - much less risky to stand in for one. No-one appears to object to the physical act of standing at a football match, since so many do it at Anfield, Old Trafford etc every week (and I believe that terracing is still quite common in League One and Two, although obviously not on anywhere near the extent that we once had in the top tier) so we must be able to agree that we're willing to allow people to run the risk of standing at a match. Since we're willing to allow people to run that risk, why not allow them to stand in an area specifically designed to allow them to do so?

[a former tribune of the plebs]

What?

You said "dickheads will stand wherever they like" - I don't understand why this is a problem?

[Andy @ Allerton]

But how would you catch a bunker at a big game when everyone's stood up? Surely a proper security system outside, around the turnstiles and inside the stand should catch all but the most ingenious bunker before they even see a seat/standing area?

What if (God forbid) when we play Spurs on Sunday someone goes over the seat in front celebrating a goal, cracks his head on the steps or the seat two rows ahead and dies? Does that make a seating area inherently dangerous? Simply having 40,000 people in the same building is a risk in itself, the question is can the risks be managed to an acceptable degree in a safe standing area? In some ways safe standing seems clearly safer to me - much less risky to stand in for one. No-one appears to object to the physical act of standing at a football match, since so many do it at Anfield, Old Trafford etc every week (and I believe that terracing is still quite common in League One and Two, although obviously not on anywhere near the extent that we once had in the top tier) so we must be able to agree that we're willing to allow people to run the risk of standing at a match. Since we're willing to allow people to run that risk, why not allow them to stand in an area specifically designed to allow them to do so?

Think about it. If you were at the match with your mate and some lad sidled over and tried to get in your seat, or tried to shove you out of the way, you know that when it comes to sitting down - even games where most stand it happens - you know that there will be a ruckus - you tell him to fuck off. If you're standing and never sitting then you'll probably let him stand there. Little bits of basic safety fall slowly by the wayside. Grounds are worked out to let people out very quickly. Very quickly indeed. Grounds and everything in them might look like they are just about football, but for the Police, the Stewards, the Match Control Room, the First Aid people, the Doctors and Nurses - it's all about safety. Once you pull one strand away then others follow. Things are up to date, orderly and appraisable all the time at the moment. Because they have to be. Let's say 'safe standing' comes in, then people work out that since people aren't going to sit - you can bump up capacity -there- for money. Then you can add a bit here, do a bit there, leave that bit here, take those railings away there and so on then who knows where the future lies.

I'd rather have what we have now - the safest, best run grounds in the world. The difference now from 20 or 30 or 40 years ago is staggering. Families and friends, women and children.. everyone can go to the ground and know that everything from start to finish has been set up for their safety. Everyone in that ground is in there to help them and look after them and get them in and out in safety.

I personally wouldn't want that to ever change.

[Andy @ Allerton]

You said "dickheads will stand wherever they like" - I don't understand why this is a problem?

You don't see how crowding at a match is a problem? Really?

[a former tribune of the plebs]

You don't see how crowding at a match is a problem? Really?

Well unless the club are going to let in more people that the stand can hold, which won't happen, then it shouldn't be a problem.

It'll be safer than it is now at the aways when people try and stand with all their mates together in to tight of a space.

[BIGdavalad]

Think about it. If you were at the match with your mate and some lad sidled over and tried to get in your seat, or tried to shove you out of the way, you know that when it comes to sitting down - even games where most stand it happens - you know that there will be a ruckus - you tell him to fuck off. If you're standing and never sitting then you'll probably let him stand there.

But that's my point. How does this lad get from being stood on Walton Breck Road to being in a position to walk over and push into your space?

Little bits of basic safety fall slowly by the wayside. Grounds are worked out to let people out very quickly. Very quickly indeed. Grounds and everything in them might look like they are just about football, but for the Police, the Stewards, the Match Control Room, the First Aid people, the Doctors and Nurses - it's all about safety. Once you pull one strand away then others follow. Things are up to date, orderly and appraisable all the time at the moment. Because they have to be. Let's say 'safe standing' comes in, then people work out that since people aren't going to sit - you can bump up capacity -there- for money. Then you can add a bit here, do a bit there, leave that bit here, take those railings away there and so on then who knows where the future lies.

Safety standards would only fall if the law and the stadium owners allowed them to and if that's a possibility with safe standing then it's also a possibility with seating. What if the club decided to put slightly smaller seats on the Kop to let more people in? What if they cut the number of stewards and police to save money? If a club can be trusted to maintain a seating area and run a stadium in a safe manner then why couldn't they be trusted to do the same with a stadium with a safe seating area? Standards will only slip if they're allowed to, no matter what kind of accommodation is provided for fans inside the ground.

I'd rather have what we have now - the safest, best run grounds in the world. The difference now from 20 or 30 or 40 years ago is staggering. Families and friends, women and children.. everyone can go to the ground and know that everything from start to finish has been set up for their safety. Everyone in that ground is in there to help them and look after them and get them in and out in safety.

And none of that would change if there was a safe standing area in the ground. The medics, stewards and the police would still be there to keep the people safe, the stands would still be designed to keep the fans as safe as possible, there'd still be a proper safety plan, there'd still be evacuation plan for emergencies and the same people would still be running the stadium. Why would any of that have to change?

[andyfm]

King Kenny is totally against safe standing and that's good enough for me.

Kenny spends the entire match standing up. The bloody hypocrite!