Author Topic: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James  (Read 18167 times)

Offline Strummer77

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #280 on: April 13, 2011, 12:15:45 PM »
I agree.

My concern is that the phrase "The Liverpool Way" ( as has been discussed before) is in danger of becominging a meaningless cypher. In particular it is starting to become an excuse for doing things behind closed doors with the asumption that everything will be ok - when it might not. I cringed when FSG invoked its spirit recently.

Oh I agree it can be taken out of context. Didn't cringe though, they were on about dealings with Kenny at the time and in that context they were right.

Offline koptommy93

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #281 on: April 13, 2011, 12:17:25 PM »
I don't think this is a matter for SOS. Whilst I think we should ask more questions regards to the motives of the deal, we don't want to come across as hostile towards FSG
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #282 on: April 13, 2011, 12:19:02 PM »
Oh I agree it can be taken out of context. Didn't cringe though, they were on about dealings with Kenny at the time and in that context they were right.
My concern is that FSG's task is to forge a Liverpool Way for the future, not to invoke the spirit of what we all agree is a bit of a mythical beast to justify the present.

I accept that Kenny represents the acceptable face of TLW.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #283 on: April 13, 2011, 12:22:42 PM »
I don't think this is a matter for SOS. Whilst I think we should ask more questions regards to the motives of the deal, we don't want to come across as hostile towards FSG

*Sigh*, on the basis that asking these questions is in our constitution please, please show me where the hostility is?

Unless you consider the act of even asking the questions is hostile?

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Offline Teddy Ted Ted Anfield Ed

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #284 on: April 13, 2011, 01:13:08 PM »
I don't think there is hostility in the questions, but I do believe we should put our trust in them and accept their decision making for now.

Yes we should question why they are making business decisions, but in this particular case I don't believe we should, simply because it is a very good marketing strategy for FSG and for us. I don't think his stake is anything over 2% anyway, but FSG are here to make money - we all know this.

LeBron James is a money making machine, whether he is popular or not, he is a money making machine that is a fact and FSG and James together will make good business for each other.

So I don't see this as a major issue to be honest and I would only question FSG on their major decision making - on the issues the member listed above. They are the most important issues to deal with, not this.

Fan Ownership issue is one that needs to be discussed once FSG have laid the foundation work for LFC and have made the key decisions for us - and of course we should question them on each of those issues if they seem problematic.

But once we are on a level playing field on and off the pitch only then I would discuss fan ownership.

Offline alex.

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #285 on: April 13, 2011, 04:08:20 PM »
I don't think this is a matter for SOS. Whilst I think we should ask more questions regards to the motives of the deal, we don't want to come across as hostile towards FSG
How is this not a matter for SOS?!

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #286 on: April 13, 2011, 04:16:57 PM »
"That would be an ecumenical matter."
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Offline stewy17

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #287 on: April 13, 2011, 04:20:55 PM »
When we had H+G, I genuinely thought the anti-Union posters, who usually had a low post-count(deja-vu?)were plants from our now-left owners.

Sadly, it appears some are just blind or ignorant. That or fucking stupid.

SoS have asked nothing unreasonable, after being asked to submit questions.

I reckon some are scared of the word 'Union'. Its nothing to be ashamed of - we're proud of the concept here, and particularly in this city. If you think its a dirty word, go and educate yourself, or support another club thats more in line with your ideals

I'm 27 and from Liverpool, My Dad was a union rep for years and I am a socialist, I've supported Liverpool all my life.

I don't agree with all SOS policies and i'm not a paid up member of SOS, although I do think it does some great work.

I'm not ignorant, blind or fucking stupid (in fact i'm quite a bright lad even if I do say so myself), nor am I "scared" of unions.

Should I go and find another club to support?

Offline Kingsley (Ned) Zissou

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #288 on: April 13, 2011, 07:59:11 PM »
Why let the fans buy a portion of the cow, when you can milk the fans for free? ...or something to that effect

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #289 on: April 13, 2011, 09:49:41 PM »
I'm 27 and from Liverpool, My Dad was a union rep for years and I am a socialist, I've supported Liverpool all my life.

I don't agree with all SOS policies and i'm not a paid up member of SOS, although I do think it does some great work.

I'm not ignorant, blind or fucking stupid (in fact i'm quite a bright lad even if I do say so myself), nor am I "scared" of unions.

Should I go and find another club to support?

No, support the reds through thick and thin.

Offline mtred1984

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #290 on: April 13, 2011, 10:03:16 PM »
When we had H+G, I genuinely thought the anti-Union posters, who usually had a low post-count(deja-vu?)were plants from our now-left owners.

Sadly, it appears some are just blind or ignorant. That or fucking stupid.

SoS have asked nothing unreasonable, after being asked to submit questions.

I reckon some are scared of the word 'Union'. Its nothing to be ashamed of - we're proud of the concept here, and particularly in this city. If you think its a dirty word, go and educate yourself, or support another club thats more in line with your ideals

And you think your 4,500 thousand odd posts give you the right to have a stronger opinion and to dismiss those ones you don't agree with.?

Get a fucking grip of yourself mate!

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #292 on: April 13, 2011, 10:23:32 PM »
Fair questions

LeBron owning a small share in LFc wil bring in ££££ a year. Where as a supporters stake of the same share holding will bring in less. Owners are smart enough to realise this (i hope) and that's why they've gone down this path...i think lol

"After all, if it's "global reach" that FSG are looking for when identifying stakeholders, who is better placed than Liverpool's "Supporters All Over The World"? "

Commercialism = Breaking into US market = LeBron = ££££
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #293 on: April 14, 2011, 01:30:03 AM »
This is what Cleveland supporters think of the rather "wonderful" Le Bron.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvgD9HNTMkM

Sound familiar or remind you of a former player?
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Offline Sharado

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #294 on: April 14, 2011, 02:15:14 AM »
When we had H+G, I genuinely thought the anti-Union posters, who usually had a low post-count(deja-vu?)were plants from our now-left owners.

Sadly, it appears some are just blind or ignorant. That or fucking stupid.

SoS have asked nothing unreasonable, after being asked to submit questions.

I reckon some are scared of the word 'Union'. Its nothing to be ashamed of - we're proud of the concept here, and particularly in this city. If you think its a dirty word, go and educate yourself, or support another club thats more in line with your ideals

It's posts like this that put people off joining the union, or supporting what the union do. I also think that people confuse posts like this with the overall 'tone' the union set in their official letters/emails etc. to FSG - which I think are generally in the right tone. This is needlessly antagonistic to non-union members and sets up an 'us and them' mentality between members and non members, when surely the aim of the union should be signing up more and more LFC fans.
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Offline Darren G

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #295 on: April 14, 2011, 02:31:33 AM »
Just a note on the final paragraph...

 ......"We therefore urge the club to give our proposal full consideration. After all, if it's "global reach" that FSG are looking for when identifying stakeholders, who is better placed than Liverpool's "Supporters All Over The World"?'

  This doesn't really make sense to me.  The whole point of expanding the clubs global reach is to do just that. "Expand" it.   By utilising James' appeal there is an opportunity to bring the club into the awareness of people who are not part of the current market in terms of the revenue/merchandise side.  'Preaching to the choir' on the other hand is not going to do a thing to increase our commercial revenue.  Our supporters are already buying the shirts, dvd's etc.   The whole point is to open up new markets.

 Personally I see that as a separate issue anyway and it simply clouds the message.   
 

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #296 on: April 14, 2011, 02:46:13 AM »
Over the last couple of days we have seen articles of ownership pop up. One with james and the other with the new york times. It has caused a small amount of stress for me and other fans i know. maybe its an over exaggeration but with the history we have i believe we need to be informed on everything regarding to club ownership.

Well done SOS. I look forward to the response.

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #297 on: April 14, 2011, 06:53:33 AM »
Over the last couple of days we have seen articles of ownership pop up. One with james and the other with the new york times. It has caused a small amount of stress for me and other fans i know. maybe its an over exaggeration but with the history we have i believe we need to be informed on everything regarding to club ownership.

the nyt thing is no big deal whatsoever seeing as its known that they are a major partner in fsg
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Offline Rotation

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #298 on: April 14, 2011, 07:02:18 AM »
or support another club thats more in line with your ideals
I'm not for/against SOS, but that comment is incredibly obtuse.
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #299 on: April 14, 2011, 07:09:03 AM »
I don't speak for the Union.

I wasn't saying it about anyone in particular. I just think there is a certain element in our support that immediately see 'SoS' and the word 'Union', and after that nothing else matters.

Their eyes and ears are closed. They have done nothing wrong here, yet are being criticised?
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Offline TopChed

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #300 on: April 14, 2011, 07:34:24 AM »

Their eyes and ears are closed. They have done nothing wrong here, yet are being criticised?

They are asking for people's opinions by posting on a public forum where many readers aren't union members.

Do we all have to agree with SoS? No. So don't tell me to support another club because I disagree with the specific actions of one (rather extreme) union. That's a load of BS. I don't see "union" as a dirty word, but that doesn't mean I'm any more likely to support any of their initiatives.

Offline The Las

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #301 on: April 14, 2011, 07:36:38 AM »
Me personally, I am just glad we have a gang of lads who have been brave enough and honest enough to get off their backsides and look after the interests of the club and its supporters.

If there wasn't a voice we'd probably be called the Liverpool Lima's and playing at the Dr Pepper Stadium in the Wirral, having just signed Jackie Chan as official club ambassador!

This is the reason we must keep any custodian on there toes, and they must be held account by us the supporters. This union is there to regulate the business of those lucky enough to be custodians and therfore make sure that any decisions or business transactions are not to the detriment of the club, the fans and indeed the broader local area.

Thats my two pence.

Offline Sharado

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #302 on: April 14, 2011, 07:47:19 AM »
one (rather extreme) union.

I think calling SOS extreme is pretty, well, extreme.
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #303 on: April 14, 2011, 08:04:18 AM »
Extremely

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #304 on: April 14, 2011, 08:31:32 AM »
Fair questions

LeBron owning a small share in LFc wil bring in ££££ a year. Commercialism = Breaking into US market = LeBron = ££££

There is nothing in this deal which guarantees a single cent for LFC.


FSG however are likely to do well out of it.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #305 on: April 14, 2011, 08:55:24 AM »
They are asking for people's opinions by posting on a public forum where many readers aren't union members.

Do we all have to agree with SoS? No. So don't tell me to support another club because I disagree with the specific actions of one (rather extreme) union. That's a load of BS. I don't see "union" as a dirty word, but that doesn't mean I'm any more likely to support any of their initiatives.

Could you detail what we have done that is "extreme" as I assume that comment is directed towards the Union.

No aggression, I am genuinely interested in what we have done that could be defined in this way.
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Offline TopChed

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #306 on: April 14, 2011, 09:14:30 AM »
Could you detail what we have done that is "extreme" as I assume that comment is directed towards the Union.

No aggression, I am genuinely interested in what we have done that could be defined in this way.

I didn't mean it necessarily towards the official union statements or business, but probably just more towards some of the members in the SoS threads on this forum.

Any criticism about tactfulness or overall impressions from non-members are generally met with hostility from some of the posters. The hard-headed, defensive attitude is probably what I would deem most extreme.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #307 on: April 14, 2011, 10:18:51 AM »
I didn't mean it necessarily towards the official union statements or business, but probably just more towards some of the members in the SoS threads on this forum.

Any criticism about tactfulness or overall impressions from non-members are generally met with hostility from some of the posters. The hard-headed, defensive attitude is probably what I would deem most extreme.

".....I disagree with the specific actions of one (rather extreme) union"

Hmm, that's nowhere near what you actually posted is it?
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #308 on: April 14, 2011, 11:04:06 AM »
1. SOS have every right to ask this question bearing in mind the well documented ownership issues of the past 3 years.

2. We (the fans) are the true custodians of the club, owners come and go both we and our families are a constant. It is therefore our duty as Liverpool fans to be vigilant and to monitor closely any situation or development which arises involving the running of the club.

3. Regarding being hostile to FSG, I am sure they are smart ppl and they have said themselves to judge them by their actions.. so when one of their actions needs explanation it is not unreasonable to question them on it, and this is according to their own 'judge us on our actions' mantra.

4. I do think socially or historically the word 'Union' carries a negative connotation which it cannot escape in the minds of some. I am from Ireland but from what my relatives tell me in Liverpool, unions and people power are stronger than they are over here. Unions are a good thing when used in the right way.

We should always remember that each and every liverpool supporter owes SOS at least a small amount of their trust considering the well documented amount of work they have in the best interests of the club and its supporters.
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #309 on: April 14, 2011, 11:11:45 AM »

3. Regarding being hostile to FSG, I am sure they are smart ppl and they have said themselves to judge them by their actions.. so when one of their actions needs explanation it is not unreasonable to question them on it, and this is according to their own 'judge us on our actions' mantra.


I guess it depends on whether you think this action actually needs explaining. For me it doesn't.

Offline ollick

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #310 on: April 14, 2011, 11:12:53 AM »
Quick question/thought for you lads.

I have seen a proposal on here that FSG allow/listen to a proposal that a fan's organisation be allowed to buy a stake in LFC to give them a voice/seat on the board.

The figure bandied about was £30m for 10% (though this may increase in price due to the rising value of the club) now people have mentioned that that money could go towards the cost of rebuilding Anfield or moving to Stanley Park, I think a term used may have been 'free money' though I could be wrong, apologies.

But isn't this actually misleading?

Shouldn't the figure be £30 million (or whatever) to buy the 10% stake in the club, the money going to FSG as their profit, then an additional £x million (10% of the total cost of rebuilding/new stadium) be sought from the fan group owning the 10%? (their liability as shareholders to fund the club?)

Should, one day, FSG sell LFC we wouldn't expect them to give the money back to the club, so why do we expect them to give away a chunk of their potential profits and then not have anything to show for it? hope that makes sense?

I am obviously missing something (hope to God it's not been covered already!!)
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #311 on: April 14, 2011, 11:14:58 AM »
Quick question/thought for you lads.

I have seen a proposal on here that FSG allow/listen to a proposal that a fan's organisation be allowed to buy a stake in LFC to give them a voice/seat on the board.

The figure bandied about was £30m for 10% (though this may increase in price due to the rising value of the club) now people have mentioned that that money could go towards the cost of rebuilding Anfield or moving to Stanley Park, I think a term used may have been 'free money' though I could be wrong, apologies.

But isn't this actually misleading?

Shouldn't the figure be £30 million (or whatever) to buy the 10% stake in the club, the money going to FSG as their profit, then an additional £x million (10% of the total cost of rebuilding/new stadium) be sought from the fan group owning the 10%? (their liability as shareholders to fund the club?)

Should, one day, FSG sell LFC we wouldn't expect them to give the money back to the club, so why do we expect them to give away a chunk of their potential profits and then not have anything to show for it? hope that makes sense?

I am obviously missing something (hope to God it's not been covered already!!)
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #312 on: April 14, 2011, 11:20:51 AM »
Quick question/thought for you lads.

I have seen a proposal on here that FSG allow/listen to a proposal that a fan's organisation be allowed to buy a stake in LFC to give them a voice/seat on the board.

The figure bandied about was £30m for 10% (though this may increase in price due to the rising value of the club) now people have mentioned that that money could go towards the cost of rebuilding Anfield or moving to Stanley Park, I think a term used may have been 'free money' though I could be wrong, apologies.

But isn't this actually misleading?

Shouldn't the figure be £30 million (or whatever) to buy the 10% stake in the club, the money going to FSG as their profit, then an additional £x million (10% of the total cost of rebuilding/new stadium) be sought from the fan group owning the 10%? (their liability as shareholders to fund the club?)

Should, one day, FSG sell LFC we wouldn't expect them to give the money back to the club, so why do we expect them to give away a chunk of their potential profits and then not have anything to show for it? hope that makes sense?

I am obviously missing something (hope to God it's not been covered already!!)

Your concerns are accurate but any investment by supporters would seek lefgal protection to see the sums invested retained within LFC for LFC purposes.

FSG would get the benefit of the retention of these sums increasing the value of the Club.
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Offline greenone

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #313 on: April 14, 2011, 11:28:06 AM »
Your concerns are accurate but any investment by supporters would seek lefgal protection to see the sums invested retained within LFC for LFC purposes.

FSG would get the benefit of the retention of these sums increasing the value of the Club.
I'm sorry but you wouldn't be in a postion to stipulate how the funds can be spent. If your buying into a company you can't turn round and tell them how to spend the money beforehand.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #314 on: April 14, 2011, 11:31:03 AM »
I'm sorry but you wouldn't be in a postion to stipulate how the funds can be spent. If your buying into a company you can't turn round and tell them how to spend the money beforehand.

Of course you can. It is called a Shareholders' Agreement.

It could be stipulated that the funds are used for the ground solution for instance.

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Offline ollick

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #315 on: April 14, 2011, 11:34:37 AM »
Your concerns are accurate but any investment by supporters would seek lefgal protection to see the sums invested retained within LFC for LFC purposes.

FSG would get the benefit of the retention of these sums increasing the value of the Club.

In that case I think FSG will pass.

The proposal seems too one sided, you expect FSG to gain NOTHING out of giving up 10% of their commodity?

Basically a 10% reduction in build/renovation costs (if we rebuild Anfield, probably less if we move) for what? loss of 10% profit when they come to sell, a pain in the arse at board level (bad choice of words, sorry) and a large group of shareholders providing nothing financial to the club or FSG for the remainder of their tenure. (unless you're going to guarentee that the shareholders will renew their stake every year or something)

It makes more sense to me to pass on the offer, stump up the £30m (or whatever) themselves and retain all of the club themselves to maximise future profits.

The way I see it is for FSG to break even and pass on this deal they'd need to sell the club, one day, for more than £570m;

Initial purchase price = £270m (so 10% of that, which they'd lose out on in profits if the fan scheme went ahead) = £27m
Revamp/Stanley park cost = £300m (so 10% of that, which is the money that the fan scheme would provide) = £30M

£57m x 10 (to get the 100% ownership value) = £570m

Thanks for answering though Graham, your efforts (even if I don't agree, or cannot see the woods for the trees) are always appreciated.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 11:49:43 AM by ollick »
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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #316 on: April 14, 2011, 11:35:21 AM »
Of course you can. It is called a Shareholders' Agreement.

It could be stipulated that the funds are used for the ground solution for instance.
And your going to get the board of any well run company to agree to a stipulation like that? There's more chance of me being Liverpool's top scorer next season.
“A football team is like a piano. You need eight men to carry it and three who can play the damn thing.” – Bill Shankly

Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #317 on: April 14, 2011, 11:41:16 AM »
Quick question/thought for you lads.

I have seen a proposal on here that FSG allow/listen to a proposal that a fan's organisation be allowed to buy a stake in LFC to give them a voice/seat on the board.

The figure bandied about was £30m for 10% (though this may increase in price due to the rising value of the club) now people have mentioned that that money could go towards the cost of rebuilding Anfield or moving to Stanley Park, I think a term used may have been 'free money' though I could be wrong, apologies.

But isn't this actually misleading?

Shouldn't the figure be £30 million (or whatever) to buy the 10% stake in the club, the money going to FSG as their profit, then an additional £x million (10% of the total cost of rebuilding/new stadium) be sought from the fan group owning the 10%? (their liability as shareholders to fund the club?)

Should, one day, FSG sell LFC we wouldn't expect them to give the money back to the club, so why do we expect them to give away a chunk of their potential profits and then not have anything to show for it? hope that makes sense?

I am obviously missing something (hope to God it's not been covered already!!)

That's a good point mate.
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #318 on: April 14, 2011, 11:51:56 AM »
And your going to get the board of any well run company to agree to a stipulation like that? There's more chance of me being Liverpool's top scorer next season.
Who knows, that's why they're asking the question. Why do you resent them so much simply asking?

Offline greenone

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Re: Spirit Of Shankly: LeBron James
« Reply #319 on: April 14, 2011, 11:57:31 AM »
I don't resent it, but I have the feeling they'll be laughed out of the room.
“A football team is like a piano. You need eight men to carry it and three who can play the damn thing.” – Bill Shankly