Topic: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One

[Alan_X]

Block 21, in the corner so right next to you. Is that really their Annie Road? I thought the Clock End was 'their' end?

The Arsenal fans I went to school with all went on the North Bank.

Arsenal Song:

A bow legged chicken, and a cross eyed hen,
I ain’t had a w*nk, since I don’t know when,
We walk with a wiggle, we walk with a swank,
We are the Arsenal North Bank!

Our song:

Said Bertie Mee, To Bill Shankly
"Have you heard of the North Bank, Highbury ?"
Shanks said "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Anny Road aggro"

[Alan_X]

As you know Alan, the minimum size for new seats is bigger than what we've got now, so a new kop would be less tight.

true but they should be as tight as possible. The proposed HKS row spacing is 750 for the Kop and 800 elsewhere. Not sure what it is on the existing Kop - feels like 600!

[Tepid water]

true but they should be as tight as possible. The proposed HKS row spacing is 750 for the Kop and 800 elsewhere. Not sure what it is on the existing Kop - feels like 600!

What's the main stand then?
The kop feels like luxury compared to that, I really find it uncomfortable and I'm only short

[xerxes1]

What's the main stand then?
The kop feels like luxury compared to that, I really find it uncomfortable and I'm only short

The lower Centenary is murder, and I am only 5ft 9in.

[SMD]

The Arsenal fans I went to school with all went on the North Bank.

Arsenal Song:

A bow legged chicken, and a cross eyed hen,
I ain’t had a w*nk, since I don’t know when,
We walk with a wiggle, we walk with a swank,
We are the Arsenal North Bank!

Our song:

Said Bertie Mee, To Bill Shankly
"Have you heard of the North Bank, Highbury ?"
Shanks said "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Anny Road aggro"

Haha, yeah that got belted out a few times even before the game

[harleydanger]

Tosh.

The mathematical formula you are looking for relates reverberation time to the volume and the amount and reflectivity of the internal surfaces.  Enjoy...

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/faculty/dmb/py115/ReverbCalc.html

As I explained hopefully in simpler terms above, if you have a big box, with lots of solid walls, floor and ceiling and a relatively small opening, the sound can be "bigger". 

Unfortunately the largest of these areas by far is people, who are soft and squidgy and absorb sound, so the reverberation effect is relatively small compared to shouting directly at the pitch.  I dare say, the sound coming back off the underside of the roof comes back to the crowd and makes it sound louder to them, which encourages them to shout directly at the pitch even louder.  The angle of the roof can have more effect (if it doesn't vibrate - but being light, it will) ie., as long as you can see the pitch to shout directly at it and there's lots of you, your going to make a big noise.

It is also doubtful that you can increase capacity with a double tier because of the increased rake and sightline requirements.  so unless you want boxes in the kop, forget it.

If you really want the roof to do the job as a reflector - angle it upwards rather than down and build it out of smooth concrete (see Hollywood Bowl) or this (unfortunately it's tiny - concrete being so bleedin' heavy...





Of course it doesn't matter so much in Spain (or LA) when it rains...

D/L a 3d model from 3d warehouse, there's numerous programs out there than can model the acoustics and give you a definitive answer. Odeon comes to mind, although it's about $10k there are others about. It'll also allow you to add in sound reinforcement. Build a 3d model of any new design ideas and run them through that to see how it compares.

But to me that is secondary, first bite is with the eyes and if the stadium looks like it'll be loud, it'll probably end up being loud because more people will sing. Half the problem with the library and wembly is the lack of intimacy creates a feeling of separation from whats going on around the ground.

[Alan_X]

D/L a 3d model from 3d warehouse, there's numerous programs out there than can model the acoustics and give you a definitive answer. Odeon comes to mind, although it's about $10k there are others about. It'll also allow you to add in sound reinforcement. Build a 3d model of any new design ideas and run them through that to see how it compares.

But to me that is secondary, first bite is with the eyes and if the stadium looks like it'll be loud, it'll probably end up being loud because more people will sing. Half the problem with the library and wembly is the lack of intimacy creates a feeling of separation from whats going on around the ground.

I'd agree with that - and also that 'foldback' is really important along with good reverberation. If the individuals in the crowd can hear it's making a noise it helps.

[ultimatewarrior]

Lads do you think if there were large fans(rotars/propellars) built into the underside of the roof it would blow the sound back toward the pitch instead of escaping or am i just nuts?

[SP]

Lads do you think if there were large fans(rotars/propellars) built into the underside of the roof it would blow the sound back toward the pitch instead of escaping or am i just nuts?

If the fans were blowing fast enough to have a significant effect, it would be like standing in a wind tunnel.

[ultimatewarrior]

If the fans were blowing fast enough to have a significant effect, it would be like standing in a wind tunnel.

Just thought warm air risin and al the shit. add a bit of electricty and it might redirect soundwaves.

[SMD]

Lads do you think if there were large fans(rotars/propellars) built into the underside of the roof it would blow the sound back toward the pitch instead of escaping or am i just nuts?

I'd like to spend a day inside your brain.

[ultimatewarrior]

I'd like to spend a day inside your brain.

Ah sure its great fun altogether

[harleydanger]

Lads do you think if there were large fans(rotars/propellars) built into the underside of the roof it would blow the sound back toward the pitch instead of escaping or am i just nuts?

It would actually diffuse the sound and make it quieter.

[harleydanger]

I'd agree with that - and also that 'foldback' is really important along with good reverberation. If the individuals in the crowd can hear it's making a noise it helps.

Do you mean foldback as in the sound system? Because if i was designing the system for the ground (i work as a sound engineer) if the mission was to reinforce the sound of the crowd for the crowd, i wouldn't foldback the stands onto itself (maybe a little) i'd use a line array (directional speakers) loaded at the roof to project the sound at the other stands. The "spread" of these can be as little as 40* so the sound would travel above the pitch and hit the other stand. Folding the sound back on the source, especially in a highly reflective environment like a stadium, would just create a messy wash of reverberation that would do more harm than good IMO.

[LiamG]

Do we really need to rely on speakers to create more noise?

[SP]

Do you mean foldback as in the sound system? Because if i was designing the system for the ground (i work as a sound engineer) if the mission was to reinforce the sound of the crowd for the crowd, i wouldn't foldback the stands onto itself (maybe a little) i'd use a line array (directional speakers) loaded at the roof to project the sound at the other stands. The "spread" of these can be as little as 40* so the sound would travel above the pitch and hit the other stand. Folding the sound back on the source, especially in a highly reflective environment like a stadium, would just create a messy wash of reverberation that would do more harm than good IMO.

I think he is using foldback to refer to the sound bouncing back into the crowd. So that as well as funnelling the sound onto the pitch for maximum intimidation, it needs to reverbate in the stand itself so it feels loud. Crowd noise tends to have a positive feedback loop, the louder it feels, the more noise the crowd makes. So the ideal is to kickstart a virtuous circle of increasing volume.

Amplification of crowd noise at Anfield would be sacrilege.

[harleydanger]

Do we really need to rely on speakers to create more noise?

Not saying i support it, but it has been done, and that's what i thought he was referring to

[18 yard line]

[Amplification of crowd noise at Anfield would be sacrilege.
[/quote]

Agreed.  And shouldn't the same apply to playing YNWA  on the PA?   I think we need the accompaniment these days though.

[Alan_X]

I think he is using foldback to refer to the sound bouncing back into the crowd. So that as well as funnelling the sound onto the pitch for maximum intimidation, it needs to reverbate in the stand itself so it feels loud. Crowd noise tends to have a positive feedback loop, the louder it feels, the more noise the crowd makes. So the ideal is to kickstart a virtuous circle of increasing volume.

Amplification of crowd noise at Anfield would be sacrilege.

Exactly - should have used quotation marks around "foldback"

[SMD]

Are we getting part two once work settles down?

[Peter McGurk]

The Arsenal fans I went to school with all went on the North Bank.

Arsenal Song:

A bow legged chicken, and a cross eyed hen,
I ain’t had a w*nk, since I don’t know when,
We walk with a wiggle, we walk with a swank,
We are the Arsenal North Bank!

Our song:

Said Bertie Mee, To Bill Shankly
"Have you heard of the North Bank, Highbury ?"
Shanks said "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Anny Road aggro"

'Our' song (while pulling braces forward and sticking your elbows and knees in and out...):

A'm a knock-knee'd chicken, a'm a bow-legged hen,
I ‘aven’t been so ‘appy since I don’t know when,
I walk with a wiggle, an’a woggle an’a squark,
Doin’ the Liverpool Boot-Walk!

Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Doin’ the Liverpool Boot-Walk!

B-yer-tie Mee said to Bill Shan-kly
"Have you heard of the North Bank ri-val-ry ?"
Bill said "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Liverpool a-ggro"

Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Doin’ the Liverpool Boot-Walk!


Different times (happily)

[xerxes1]

When we sang it, it was as follows:

A bow legged chicken and a knock kneed hen
I ain’t had a wank since I don’t know when
We walk with a wiggle and a squiggle and a squawk
Doing the Libpool, boot walk

 Bertie Mee said To Bill Shankly
"Have you heard of the North Bank, Highbury ?"
Shanks says "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Anny Road aggro"

Time, memories and eras may vary!

[Peter McGurk]

'Our' song (while pulling braces forward and sticking your elbows and knees in and out...):

A'm a knock-knee'd chicken, a'm a bow-legged hen,
I ‘aven’t been so ‘appy since I don’t know when,
I walk with a wiggle, an’a woggle an’a squark,
Doin’ the Liverpool Boot-Walk!

Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Doin’ the Liverpool Boot-Walk!

B-yer-tie Mee said to Bill Shan-kly
"Have you heard of the North Bank ri-val-ry ?"
Bill said "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Liverpool a-ggro"

Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Na-a na na na, na na nah
Doin’ the Liverpool Boot-Walk!


Different times (happily)

Later on (and very, very occasionally)...

You’ra knock-knee'd chicken, You’ra bow-legged hen,
U ‘aven’t been so ‘appy since U don’t know when,
U walk with a wiggle, an’a woggle an’a w*nk,
You are the Arsenal North Bank!

or was that in the pub...?

[xerxes1]

And the capacity for a crowd to sing the same song to different lyrics is legendary. The number of times I have heard, "With hope in your arse" sung..............................

[SMD]

And the capacity for a crowd to sing the same song to different lyrics is legendary. The number of times I have heard, "With hope in your arse" sung..............................

You always did have a habit of speaking without thinking.

[The 92A]

The knock kneeded chicken and the bow legged hen, tune was changed in the seventies on the Kop to;
 
walking down lime street swinging me chain,
Up comes a copper and asks me, me name,
I kick him in the bollocks, I kicked him in the head,
Now i'm a libpool skinhead.
 
and the first version of Bertie Mee finished with;
i've heard of the scouser agro, although it was changed to the Anny road agro
about the same time as they started telling us 'the kopitites sing, as the Rd end fight'
and I've always sung; The north bank, highbury rather than rivalry.
but how we came to talk about this in this thread is pretty surreal.
 

[xerxes1]

You always did have a habit of speaking without thinking.

It's just the words you don't understand mate (even though they rhyme), back to the pictures.

[xerxes1]

The knock kneeded chicken and the bow legged hen, tune was changed in the seventies on the Kop to;
 
walking down lime street swinging me chain,
Up comes a copper and asks me, me name,
I kick him in the bollocks, I kicked him in the head,
Now i'm a libpool skinhead.
 
and the first version of Bertie Mee finished with;
i've heard of the scouser agro, although it was changed to the Anny road agro
about the same time as they started telling us 'the kopitites sing, as the Rd end fight'
and I've always sung; The north bank, highbury rather than rivalry.
but how we came to talk about this in this thread is pretty surreal.
 

The mists of time clear, and I recall that, cheers!

[Alan_X]

Are we getting part two once work settles down?

Yes - got a project on site at the moment which is taking up a lot of my time.

[xerxes1]

Do you mean foldback as in the sound system? Because if i was designing the system for the ground (i work as a sound engineer) if the mission was to reinforce the sound of the crowd for the crowd, i wouldn't foldback the stands onto itself (maybe a little) i'd use a line array (directional speakers) loaded at the roof to project the sound at the other stands. The "spread" of these can be as little as 40* so the sound would travel above the pitch and hit the other stand. Folding the sound back on the source, especially in a highly reflective environment like a stadium, would just create a messy wash of reverberation that would do more harm than good IMO.

Instinctively I recoil  from amplification. Yet if a stand is built with inherent acoustic defects, would installing microphones to help sound to travel to acoustic blackspots be wrong? I am not sure.

I was speaking to an acoustic engineer who pointed out to me  that single tier stands have inbuilt limitations on noise creation as the more rows there are the higher the roof is from the front rows, and more sound is lost at the front than is gained at the back and by the extra rows/ people.An optimum does exist for which there is a mathematical formula - I am onto it!

Veterans will remember the Baseball Ground as being incredibly noisy, even though it was twin tiered throughout. Their "End" was actually a "side", the "Popside" which was overhung making it very noisy ( as was the Shelf).

Like others, I do bemoan the loss of distictive "ends" in modern stadia, and a well thought out end for a new anfield would set us apart from the pack.

[Kopite1971]

Like others, I do bemoan the loss of distictive "ends" in modern stadia, and a well thought out end for a new anfield would set us apart from the pack.

The Kop was the only thing I actually really liked about The Hicks Bowl.  As much as I can't stand Hicks or anything he actually did during his ill - feted 44 months, he did actually "get" the relevance of The Kop.  To him it was a stage, filled with as many people as possible singing away supporting the franchise so that corporates and day trippers would pay for "the experience".

To me, as a long standing member of The Kop, it's home.  I hope that if FSG refurbish Anfield, they extend The Kop's corners backwards so that the top of The Kop is all at the same level, and that they address the roof so that the sound of The Kop does reverberate around the terrace itself as well as project out into the ground.  If they opt for a new stadium, then whatever they come up with i hope they retain "The Kop End" preferably with 16000 plus seats in a single tier stand.  As for YNWA being played all the way through, george should try going back to "the Liverpool Way" and fade it out after the first verse from the start of the new season, I'm pretty sure The Kop would soon learn to keep it going without the aid of a record player...

[Peter McGurk]

...I was speaking to an acoustic engineer who pointed out to me  that single tier stands have inbuilt limitations on noise creation as the more rows there are the higher the roof is from the front rows, and more sound is lost at the front than is gained at the back and by the extra rows/ people.An optimum does exist for which there is a mathematical formula - I am onto it!

...

Tosh.

The mathematical formula you are looking for relates reverberation time to the volume and the amount and reflectivity of the internal surfaces.  Enjoy...

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/faculty/dmb/py115/ReverbCalc.html

As I explained hopefully in simpler terms above, if you have a big box, with lots of solid walls, floor and ceiling and a relatively small opening, the sound can be "bigger". 

Unfortunately the largest of these areas by far is people, who are soft and squidgy and absorb sound, so the reverberation effect is relatively small compared to shouting directly at the pitch.  I dare say, the sound coming back off the underside of the roof comes back to the crowd and makes it sound louder to them, which encourages them to shout directly at the pitch even louder.  The angle of the roof can have more effect (if it doesn't vibrate - but being light, it will) ie., as long as you can see the pitch to shout directly at it and there's lots of you, your going to make a big noise.

It is also doubtful that you can increase capacity with a double tier because of the increased rake and sightline requirements.  so unless you want boxes in the kop, forget it.

If you really want the roof to do the job as a reflector - angle it upwards rather than down and build it out of smooth concrete (see Hollywood Bowl) or this (unfortunately it's tiny - concrete being so bleedin' heavy...





Of course it doesn't matter so much in Spain (or LA) when it rains...

[HELLRAZOR]

i cant imagine henry carrying on with the hks design anyway

[SMD]

It's just the words you don't understand mate (even though they rhyme), back to the pictures.

Yes, it's just me, not the numerous experts posting in this thread telling you that you're wrong.

[HELLRAZOR]

as i posted the night we were sold

if hks got 55m for a drawing then i think we all need to do one and make easy money

heres mine

im 45m richer

[paul j]

Do we really need to rely on speakers to create more noise?

no we don't need speakers mate, i have a interesting idea to make more noise.the crowd just need to sing and chant.

[Strummer77]

And the capacity for a crowd to sing the same song to different lyrics is legendary. The number of times I have heard, "With hope in your arse" sung..............................

I have never ever ever heard that.

[xerxes1]

i cant imagine henry carrying on with the hks design anyway

Agreed. And we are now only several weeks away from that consent lapsing anyway.

[HELLRAZOR]

Agreed. And we are now only several weeks away from that consent lapsing anyway.

what do you mean? im thick i know

ive just lost all interest in the design and talk of the new ground as its been a pipe dream for years

[xerxes1]

what do you mean?

The consent for this scheme lapses this summer, from memory 27/7, after which a new application would have to be made if it hasn't been started.

Although there is nothing to suggest that  a re-application would not be successful, I suspect that the existing consent is being allowed to lapse.