Topic: New images of stadium design and redevelopment rumours

[Peter McGurk]

I believe that the maximum allowed angle for new stadiums/stands is 34 degrees ... You will still have to ask Peter or Alan for confirmation ...

Yes. It's 34degrees in the UK. 

Those stadia are very attractive as 'dynamic' section drawings but to say they would suit us you'd have to look at whether they suit our regs and have a wider look - particularly whether they help or hinder the atmosphere, whether they are intimidating or meek... generally, the steeper it is, the more imposing is the stadium but generally, the newer ones show this tendency towards lower rakes (and are less 'intense') to meet modern regs.

Generally South American stadia are wild but if you're up to your gills in coke (I'm led to believe) who cares about safety?

[ultimatewarrior]

The emirates doesent have really steep stands but i think St James Park would be quite steep. 34 degrees seems quite low.

[Peter McGurk]

The emirates doesent have really steep stands but i think St James Park would be quite steep. 34 degrees seems quite low.

From memory, you could go steeper than 34 degrees if you provided a barrier on every row. This has a tendency to encourage people to stand up (to look over the bar) and is therefore counter-effective as a safety measure.

[ultimatewarrior]

Yes. It's 34degrees in the UK. 

Those stadia are very attractive as 'dynamic' section drawings but to say they would suit us you'd have to look at whether they suit our regs and have a wider look - particularly whether they help or hinder the atmosphere, whether they are intimidating or meek... generally, the steeper it is, the more imposing is the stadium but generally, the newer ones show this tendency towards lower rakes (and are less 'intense') to meet modern regs.

Generally South American stadia are wild but if you're up to your gills in coke (I'm led to believe) who cares about safety?

"up to your gills in coke" gas! So different countries have different regs. Obviously its something to do with H&S or maybe sightlines. Although if for example the first tier was 34degrees ,wouldn't the sightlines be better if the upper tiers were steeper?

[campioni]

Holy moly! I knew the berabaeu was steep but not that steep. Its 45degrees at least. Are there some special laws against a stand being so steep nowadays. Personally I would love really steep stands in our new stadium, but i bont know if its possible.

i love the bernabeu, its probably my favourite stadium i've been to. the steep stands and the roof are very imposing on the pitch. madrid fans don't do it justice. 80,000 reds in there would create some atmosphere.

the third tier at the mestalla is ridiculous. i always thought it was steeper than the bernabeu. my first game at the mestalla i sat at the top of the third tier. it felt like we were actually detached from the rest of the stadium. its no surprise they only sell non alcoholic beer up there.

[Peter McGurk]

Dortmund's
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5074/dortmund1.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9443/dortmund.jpg

There's a lot to admire there.  The simplicity of it all gives the place great power. But I believe even the safe standing has an angle of about 34 degrees (the building regs in the UK allow standing at 25 degrees but the FA does not allow it).  The upper tier is about 37 degrees.

[Peter McGurk]

"up to your gills in coke" gas! So different countries have different regs. Obviously its something to do with H&S or maybe sightlines. Although if for example the first tier was 34degrees ,wouldn't the sightlines be better if the upper tiers were steeper?

Yes, it must be steeper to see at all, but tripping over the seat in front and going a over t starts to become an issue at steeper angles (hence the barriers).  Working the other way round - if the top tier is at the max of 34 degrees, the inevitable conclusion is the lower tiers are at lower angles (and every time you add a box tier the angle gets lower).- hence the 'laid back' profile of the Emirates and the like

[Peter McGurk]

"up to your gills in coke" gas!

"There's an awful lot of coffee in Brazil" 

[ultimatewarrior]

i love the bernabeu, its probably my favourite stadium i've been to. the steep stands and the roof are very imposing on the pitch. madrid fans don't do it justice. 80,000 reds in there would create some atmosphere.

the third tier at the mestalla is ridiculous. i always thought it was steeper than the bernabeu. my first game at the mestalla i sat at the top of the third tier. it felt like we were actually detached from the rest of the stadium. its no surprise they only sell non alcoholic beer up there.

Hey Campione, i'm envious, i dont support Real in spain but I think their staduim is the best . I have a question for ye. Were you sitting in the top tier at the bernabeu? If so, what are the views of the pitch like, and does it feel dangerous when a goal is scored and fans are celebrating.

[ultimatewarrior]

Yes, it must be steeper to see at all, but tripping over the seat in front and going a over t starts to become an issue at steeper angles (hence the barriers).  Working the other way round - if the top tier is at the max of 34 degrees, the inevitable conclusion is the lower tiers are at lower angles (and every time you add a box tier the angle gets lower).- hence the 'laid back' profile of the Emirates and the like

I know what ye mean. And is this what they did at the emirates? Is the top tier 34 degrees and then the addition of the boxes and the premium tier drives down the rake of the 1st tier .

[Peter McGurk]

I know what ye mean. And is this what they did at the emirates? Is the top tier 34 degrees and then the addition of the boxes and the premium tier drives down the rake of the 1st tier .

Other factors would have come into it (the size of the tread depth, the number of rows in the top tier/the split between premium and standard seats, the number of seats in the exec tier...) but in principle, yes.

[campioni]

Hey Campione, i'm envious, i dont support Real in spain but I think their staduim is the best . I have a question for ye. Were you sitting in the top tier at the bernabeu? If so, what are the views of the pitch like, and does it feel dangerous when a goal is scored and fans are celebrating.

yeah i was sitting in the top tier at the bernabeu. the view is ok but players at the far end look a bit like subutteo men. it doesn't feel dangerous but to be honest spanish fans don't tend to celebrate goals the way people do at english grounds.

[ultimatewarrior]

http://www.spainticketsonline.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bernabeu1.jpg
Here is a good view of the bernabeu with those barriers . I think its better to build steep and include the berriers than sticking to the 34degree rule. I think the perfect senario for a new stadium for lfc would be as follows.
The Kop = One big tier with rows and seats bunched as closely together as legally possible for increased capacity and atmosphere. The heartbeat of the stadium.

The rest of the stadium =

1st tier = 34degrees. around 50 rows with the top 15 for Premium seeting. Fans who can pay extra for premium seats wont feel like they are seperated from the crowd. Hospitalty boxes at the top of the first tier.

2nd tier= executive boxes with a small number of seats outside. Maybe 5 - 10 rows with big comfy seats and legroom (very expensive).
 
3rd tier = Really steep ,( maybe not 45degrees) 40degrees to maximise height. 35-40 rows tight together. Cheap seats allowing familys and teenagers to attend games. Get the young generation excited and then when they are older they continue coming to games and probably wanting to get closer to the action.

Also another idea i had when thinking how to maximise match goers is for the club ,to buy a small ship(big boat)to sail from Dublin to Liverpool every matchday. Very basic, with a few decks full of seats for about between 5k-10k fans. this would allow more season tickets to be sold and broaden the fanbase for the future. The following in Ireland is huge and most fans never get to travell over for matches because of ticketing and transport issues.
Most fans chose to follow the same team as their father so the fanbase will always be strong in Ireland , but we have to take advantage of being port cities and get good system in place so that, If young kids who are starting to play football see their friends going to the Liverpool match with their Dad's then there is a good chance they will want to tag along and will become a liverpool fan. In 50 years Ireland would be predominantly Liverpool fans.
Please feel free to scrutinise my plans because i'm sick with flu and have tunnel vision.

[Peter McGurk]

http://www.spainticketsonline.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bernabeu1.jpg
Here is a good view of the bernabeu with those barriers . I think its better to build steep and include the berriers than sticking to the 34degree rule. I think the perfect senario for a new stadium for lfc would be as follows.
The Kop = One big tier with rows and seats bunched as closely together as legally possible for increased capacity and atmosphere. The heartbeat of the stadium.

The rest of the stadium =

1st tier = 34degrees. around 50 rows with the top 15 for Premium seeting. Fans who can pay extra for premium seats wont feel like they are seperated from the crowd. Hospitalty boxes at the top of the first tier.

2nd tier= executive boxes with a small number of seats outside. Maybe 5 - 10 rows with big comfy seats and legroom (very expensive).
 
3rd tier = Really steep ,( maybe not 45degrees) 40degrees to maximise height. 35-40 rows tight together. Cheap seats allowing familys and teenagers to attend games. Get the young generation excited and then when they are older they continue coming to games and probably wanting to get closer to the action.

Ah but, from the bible (the 'Green Book'):

[ultimatewarrior]

That says Recomended for viewing , its not a regulation or against the law to build above 34degrees or is it? Is that green book dwnloadable Peter?

[Peter McGurk]

That says Recomended for viewing , its not a regulation or against the law to build above 34degrees or is it? Is that green book dwnloadable Peter?

Yes but the Green Book stands for the Building Regulations WRT stadia and needs to be read with them as well as:

• Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975
  Safety of Sports Grounds Regulations 1987.
  Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sports Act 1987
  Safety of Places of Sport Regulations 1988.
  The Football Spectators Act 1989
  The Environmental and Safety Information Act 1988.
  Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on inspections to be carried out under Section 10B of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 Home office Circular 72/1987.
  Statutory Guidance under the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act Home Office Circular 97/1988.
  The Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds (Home Office), commonly known as "The Green Guide".

(It ain't just pretty pictures), the designer has H&S obligations that carry (literally) criminal penalties (you really can go to gaol).  Even though the Building Regulations, for example, are a 'only' a deemed to satisfy document (ie., if you think you know better than the case history, research and practice and you want to do otherwise, it's your responsibility!), it would be a brave man that goes in the face of that lot.

[Alan_X]

That says Recomended for viewing , its not a regulation or against the law to build above 34degrees or is it? Is that green book dwnloadable Peter?

Download here:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEYQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Flevelplayingfield.org.uk%2Fcontrols%2FDownloadDocument.ashx%3FdocID%3Dvm3244RMROFXQINXCE7188eWed%26aId%3D787&rct=j&q=%20Guide%20to%20Safety%20at%20Sports%20Grounds&ei=BP2eTevqOZG3hAeP0r33BA&usg=AFQjCNFgt6RuK_5NKL6oNP_5Z91DX0WCDQ&sig2=WfSybpYlvar7IBGGaJt1jA

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Those stadia are very attractive as 'dynamic' section drawings but to say they would suit us you'd have to look at whether they suit our regs and have a wider look - particularly whether they help or hinder the atmosphere, whether they are intimidating or meek... generally, the steeper it is, the more imposing is the stadium but generally, the newer ones show this tendency towards lower rakes (and are less 'intense') to meet modern regs.

Personally, I really like the simple design of those Dortmund stands that LiamG has posted above ...



And it looks even better in real life ...

[TALBERT]

Everyone's saying the kop needs to be bigger than any other stand

Could you keep the Kop and build a new Kop at the annie Road end?

the five buildings have gone..... The road is the only problem.......

Is the idea of one massive single stand at the annie road end a stupid area?

I think as the kop can't possible be extended other than the corner filled in, there is a chance to build a huge stand with the land that is available in Anfield road

[LiamG]

Everyone's saying the kop needs to be bigger than any other stand

Could you keep the Kop and build a new Kop at the annie Road end?

the five buildings have gone..... The road is the only problem.......

Is the idea of one massive single stand at the annie road end a stupid area?

I think as the kop can't possible be extended other than the corner filled in, there is a chance to build a huge stand with the land that is available in Anfield road

lol imagine this....

[paul j]

yeah i was sitting in the top tier at the bernabeu. the view is ok but players at the far end look a bit like subutteo men. it doesn't feel dangerous but to be honest spanish fans don't tend to celebrate goals the way people do at english grounds.

i was in the top tier in the bernabeu last season for a game behind the goal against xerez, we were by the xerez fans they sang all through the game but the madrid fans didn't make much noise.it is a stunning stadium though did you notice the heaters in the roof?

[LiamG]

Never considered FC Porto's ground before, Reminds me a bit of the parry bowl except single tiered goal ends and gaps in the corner and above the stands, Im asuming they could fill those with expansion and thats why its like that? But just imagine that with a single big tier Kop

[CraigDS]

Everyone's saying the kop needs to be bigger than any other stand

Could you keep the Kop and build a new Kop at the annie Road end?

the five buildings have gone..... The road is the only problem.......

Is the idea of one massive single stand at the annie road end a stupid area?

I think as the kop can't possible be extended other than the corner filled in, there is a chance to build a huge stand with the land that is available in Anfield road

Surely this defeats the idea of a redev for historical reasons? If we just build a new Kop at Anfield and move away from where it is now then we may as well just build a new stadium.

[Peter McGurk]

Never considered FC Porto's ground before, Reminds me a bit of the parry bowl except single tiered goal ends and gaps in the corner and above the stands, Im asuming they could fill those with expansion and thats why its like that? But just imagine that with a single big tier Kop

It's beautiful, but so open and look at the space allowed in the second section.  Not quite sitting in a field but...

Capacity is 50k?

[Peter McGurk]

Surely this defeats the idea of a redev for historical reasons? If we just build a new Kop at Anfield and move away from where it is now then we may as well just build a new stadium.

Maybe the best reasons for staying at Anfield are economic rather than historic.  You can attract players with history and make a bit of money from it too but you can buy players with extra cash.

[CraigDS]

Maybe the best reasons for staying at Anfield are economic rather than historic.  You can attract players with history and make a bit of money from it too but you can buy players with the extra cash.

I agree with you about the reason to stay or not should be economic, and thats exactly how Im looking at it.

However I would guess 8/10 people who are arguing about staying at Anfield over a new stadium are doing so because of the history and not the economics.

[Peter McGurk]

I agree with you about the reason to stay or not should be economic, and thats exactly how Im looking at it.

However I would guess 8/10 people who are arguing about staying at Anfield over a new stadium are doing so because of the history and not the economics.

That may very well be true... unfortunately and on the other hand, other people argue for a new stadium as "the only way forward", "head before heart" etc etc... when a new stadium is maybe as much in their heart as in their heads. The issues are so entwined as to be almost indistinguishable.  Both head and heart have a value but the decision would be more sound if they were kept separate.

Personally I'm of a generation were the kop I grew up with is gone anyway.  That's to take nothing away from how people feel about it today but it helps to take the 'emotion' out of it.  This generation's history is there for this generation to enjoy - history and memories will always be there but the atmosphere could be re-created elsewhere.  The major reason for staying has to be, because it would be more successful financially and it would put us in a better place to win stuff.

[xerxes1]

A good post Peter.

The only reason for staying has to be because it would be more successful financially and would put us in a better place to win stuff. Whether staying put does offer us that will be interesting.

The obfuscation from FSG on the Lebron James detail does not augur well for a transparent decision though, either way.

[LiverBirdKop]

I think that Anfield can get back to being an intimidating place again. All we need are a couple of big "Jumbotron" screens showing ----Make Noise!!!!---- often during games.   

[Alan_X]

I think that Anfield can get back to being an intimidating place again. All we need are a couple of big "Jumbotron" screens showing ----Make Noise!!!!---- often during games.   

This is all we need at Anfield:



I hate big screens at football matches.

[Breitner]

I think that Anfield can get back to being an intimidating place again. All we need are a couple of big "Jumbotron" screens showing ----Make Noise!!!!---- often during games.   

I'll assume this is a joke, but oh dear just in case.

[LiverBirdKop]

I'll assume this is a joke, but oh dear just in case.

Wasn't it obvious? Next time I'll make sure to include [joke] so you don't have to assume. 

[LiverBirdKop]

I hate big screens at football matches.

Same here.
NESV have 3 brand new ones at Fenway.  One is 38 ft. high by 100ft. wide.
It's ad revenue so we better start getting used to the idea.

[redandwhitesox]

Same here.
NESV have 3 brand new ones at Fenway.  One is 38 ft. high by 100ft. wide.
It's ad revenue so we better start getting used to the idea.

Fenway's had a jumbotron for a long time though (but much smaller than the new ones, and by other stadia's standards, really low tech). When they built these new ones, they did it in a way that is sort of unobtrusive (but certainly, as you point out, all about the advertising). I haven't been to Fenway yet this year, but there's no way they're putting "Make Some Noise!" messages on it, like they do at almost every other baseball stadium. Fenway does not need that type of fake encouragement any more than Anfield does, and that type of thing is utterly sneered at by Sox fans, as it would be in Liverpool. Instead the screen has historically been a place for player stats, information, and occasional replays. I'd imagine that will continue at Fenway, and provide a model for Anfield. Information and replays, and above all ads, but none of that really stupid shit.

[LiverBirdKop]

When they built these new ones, they did it in a way that is sort of unobtrusive (but certainly, as you point out, all about the advertising).

Unobtrusive?? That's the last thing NESV had in mind with those screens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFAkLk4PyoM

[Classic goal]

Fenway's had a jumbotron for a long time though (but much smaller than the new ones, and by other stadia's standards, really low tech). When they built these new ones, they did it in a way that is sort of unobtrusive (but certainly, as you point out, all about the advertising). I haven't been to Fenway yet this year, but there's no way they're putting "Make Some Noise!" messages on it, like they do at almost every other baseball stadium. Fenway does not need that type of fake encouragement any more than Anfield does, and that type of thing is utterly sneered at by Sox fans, as it would be in Liverpool. Instead the screen has historically been a place for player stats, information, and occasional replays. I'd imagine that will continue at Fenway, and provide a model for Anfield. Information and replays, and above all ads, but none of that really stupid shit.

I can't see the point of them at football matches. I can't see the point of them full stop. It's not difficult to recall the score at a match and everyone has a watch or phone if they want to know the time. The scoreboard we have anfield now is pointless. At a football match they have a very limited time with which to sell food and other crap to punters so they will need us inside the stands, not outside gawping at the big blurring tv. The flat screen tv's they have inside the stands do the job perfectly well if you want to pay £45 to watch tv.

[xerxes1]

Kroenke's offer for Arsenal values the club at £711m on an unopposed purchase. That will certainly give the FSG 19 pause for thought. At £300m for a stadium ( £15.8m each) that still gives them some healthy clear air - at today's prices.

[ttnbd]

Kroenke's offer for Arsenal values the club at £711m on an unopposed purchase. That will certainly give the FSG 19 pause for thought. At £300m for a stadium ( £15.8m each) that still gives them some healthy clear air - at today's prices.

Unopposed purchase?  I think the Arsenal Supporters Trust and Usmanov would say otherwise

[xerxes1]

Unopposed purchase?  I think the Arsenal Supporters Trust and Usmanov would say otherwise.

It was shorthand for a situation in which an existing shareholder seeks to increase their stake, as distinct from a Broughton style sale.

[Mal]

This is all we need at Anfield:



I hate big screens at football matches.

To be fair, I objected when they put the electronic score board in.

What kind of numpty do you need to be to not know the score in the match you're watching...?