Author Topic: Lazy  (Read 6705 times)

Offline Degs

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Lazy
« on: March 18, 2011, 02:29:00 AM »
Every ball pumped up to Andy Carroll in the hope he'll flick  it on or bring it down.
Lazy. As. Fuck.

Offline tommyLFC

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 02:31:22 AM »
Playing it long is ok as a plan B. Plan A should be pass and move. Unfortunatly, neither will work well without Suarez, Gerrard and a couple of decent attacking signings.
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Offline Armand9

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 02:32:18 AM »
Lazy or lack of ability or lack of tactics? Or all three.

None of that makes pleasant reading.
Losing your only chance of silverware this season to your city rival. At home. With the most expensive squad ever assembled.

Have that, you arrogant wanker. CarraG238

Offline Matt A

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 03:07:34 AM »
Playing it long is ok as a plan B. Plan A should be pass and move. Unfortunatly, neither will work well without Suarez, Gerrard and a couple of decent attacking signings.

Spot on

Offline Cooper-Man

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 03:11:19 AM »
Carrol is just as good with the ball at the feet as he is in the air. Why not play the ball to his feet rather than go long ball constantly.

Offline Armand9

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2011, 03:19:45 AM »
That's the point of the OP
Losing your only chance of silverware this season to your city rival. At home. With the most expensive squad ever assembled.

Have that, you arrogant wanker. CarraG238

Offline Johnny C

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2011, 03:33:00 AM »
Every ball pumped up to Andy Carroll in the hope he'll flick  it on or bring it down.


Agreed....   But it's more than that.  It comes down to the *current* qualities of the respective players on the pitch.

All that specific CB pairing either (1) collectively or (2)individually EVER DOES is friggin' hoof the ball.  That's their current quality as players.  That's their current skill-set.  To expect anything more out of those two guys either together or individualistically isn't realistic.

A healthy Agger in there and it's a different story.  Kjaer in there....  a different story.  Hummels...  different.  Ayala....  different.  Luiz...  different.  ETC..

Offline Daniel Cabbaggio

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2011, 03:41:52 AM »
Shocking man, andy aint even fit from what i can see either and it might not even necessaryily be a tactic we've imposed, its just natural to play it long when you've a guy of that height up front. watching a aqualanli vid from last years UEFA semi final, fuck me we played  some beautiful football, despite the result. there is no reason at all why we should abandon our princibles.
I wont have a bad word said of Ngog either what was he supposed to do? played his heart out and probably should have started.

Pass and move for the love of Jesus boys, anyway YNWA kenny needs time. we need all our peeps singing from the same Hymn sheet and an unbreakable Agger to start every match.

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Offline hitnrock

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 04:14:09 AM »
I knew it as soon as carroll was signed that this was gonna happen.
Why can't carra understand that andy's head is right over other parts of his body that work as well.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 04:36:54 AM »
We played shit tonight. Lets give it until Christmas at least to see how we play with Carroll in the side.

Offline weezernumber5

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 04:44:30 AM »
Carragher (legend, great servant and all that) should not be first choice. His time has come and gone. The sooner Agger is fully fit the better
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Offline BTGH

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 05:09:52 AM »
I knew it as soon as carroll was signed that this was gonna happen.
Why can't carra understand that andy's head is right over other parts of his body that work as well.

Carra should have called to Kenny to bring on Kyrgiakos as well to play upfront last night, his hoofing might have been more productive!

Offline redforlife

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 06:51:38 AM »
Thing is, it's up to Kenny to stop this happening. 

He needs to be on to Carragher and Skrtel every time he's on the training pitch that the next time they play a long ball for the sake of it they're out the next game.  Maybe not that drastic but he's got to make them at least think twice rather than making me think i'm sat there watching Stoke or Everton in red
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Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 06:55:58 AM »
Carragher (legend, great servant and all that) should not be first choice. His time has come and gone. The sooner Agger is fully fit the better
He'll never be fully fit I'm afraid. He'll be close to fitness for a stretch of games and then out for some time. Repeat.

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 07:01:52 AM »
Thing is, it's up to Kenny to stop this happening. 

He needs to be on to Carragher and Skrtel every time he's on the training pitch that the next time they play a long ball for the sake of it they're out the next game.  Maybe not that drastic but he's got to make them at least think twice rather than making me think i'm sat there watching Stoke or Everton in red
Problem is when there is no movement and we're "passing the ball around" form the back, the ball will end up at Carra's feet
- who will then proceed to roll it forward a yard or two to get enough of a running start to hoof it.
Hardly anyone ever mentions how shite we are at controlling headers. The ball almost ends up going to an opponent every time and even when there's no one really close to one of our players, don't we have anyone capable of simply chesting it instead of giving it back?

Offline redforlife

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2011, 07:07:25 AM »
The first ball's not always that important, but we need to be alert to winning the second balls also but last night that wasn't happening.

Not surprising when it's a new way of playing I suppose, but it can't be our plan A from now on surely?

I was quite pleased to see Carroll try and bring some balls down rather than get his head on them all the time but he's still learning about the team too.
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Offline redforlife

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2011, 07:07:28 AM »
The first ball's not always that important, but we need to be alert to winning the second balls also but last night that wasn't happening.

Not surprising when it's a new way of playing I suppose, but it can't be our plan A from now on surely?

I was quite pleased to see Carroll try and bring some balls down rather than get his head on them all the time but he's still learning about the team too.
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Offline cambridge

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 07:37:43 AM »
for a period of time last night i was convinced that Hodgson was still our manager. a non-injury prone CB is one of our requirements for the summer.

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 07:48:23 AM »
for a period of time last night i was convinced that Hodgson was still our manager. a non-injury prone CB is one of our requirements for the summer.

Or just getting rid of Carragher as a first teamer would do the trick too because when paired with Agger, Skrtel doesn't play hoof-ball nearly as much
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Re: Lazy
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 07:49:54 AM »
Lay off Carra ya feckin yapps.
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Re: Lazy
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 08:06:52 AM »
Lay off Carra ya feckin yapps.
Lay off for what reason. In football sentiment should not be a factor in squad selection. He has been a good servant but his time is up, he has never been a passer of the ball and never will be. End of season he should be replaced.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2011, 08:14:13 AM »
Lay off Carra ya feckin yapps.

Him launching long balls to Dirk has to be one of the most painful sights in football.
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Offline kkhaku

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2011, 08:32:10 AM »
Let's not overlook something here:

Braga pressed us quite high most of the match. At times they had 5-6 players in our half trying to shut off the supply to the midfield. Our midfield (well our whole side) lacks dynamism and passing range. Especially without Gerrard, Agger, Suarez, Aurelio etc. So as a defender, it's quite easy to feel like you're just putting yourself under pressure by playing it short and relying on pass and move in tight spaces to get out of your own half. You add to that the fact that you have two big men up front, and the natural tendency is to go long. You really can't blame Carra for this. He's part of a back 4 of which only one player is comfortable with the ball at his feet. In front of him he's got a player in Lucas who's likely to get pressured and pass it back to a defender. Meanwhile we're down a goal on aggregate and we've got a colossus up front twiddling his thumbs.

Braga got their tactics spot on. The only chance we had of getting the ball in good positions was a long ball forward. After that we had to win the 2nd ball and rely on guile and creativity around their 18 yard box. We didn't have any.

You want pass and move football, you need pass and move players. Not just a few, but all of them. Especially the defenders. But pass and move football alone won't win you games (as Arsenal have found out). You still need creativity in the final 3rd and you need to be able to finish.

For me, the fact that we hoofed so much didn't matter. It's only natural under the circumstances. We did end up getting the ball in the right positions more than enough times. It's at that point we failed. Which tells you that if you don't have offensive game changers in your team, players like Suarez who make things happen when on the ball - and you rely on workhorses and have-beens up front - you'll find it hard to come by goals. Is anyone really surprised?
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Offline fivein05

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2011, 08:36:45 AM »
Let's not overlook something here:

Braga pressed us quite high most of the match. At times they had 5-6 players in our half trying to shut off the supply to the midfield. Our midfield (well our whole side) lacks dynamism and passing range. Especially without Gerrard, Agger, Suarez, Aurelio etc. So as a defender, it's quite easy to feel like you're just putting yourself under pressure by playing it short and relying on pass and move in tight spaces to get out of your own half. You add to that the fact that you have two big men up front, and the natural tendency is to go long. You really can't blame Carra for this. He's part of a back 4 of which only one player is comfortable with the ball at his feet. In front of him he's got a player in Lucas who's likely to get pressured and pass it back to a defender. Meanwhile we're down a goal on aggregate and we've got a colossus up front twiddling his thumbs.

Braga got their tactics spot on. The only chance we had of getting the ball in good positions was a long ball forward. After that we had to win the 2nd ball and rely on guile and creativity around their 18 yard box. We didn't have any.

You want pass and move football, you need pass and move players. Not just a few, but all of them. Especially the defenders. But pass and move football alone won't win you games (as Arsenal have found out). You still need creativity in the final 3rd and you need to be able to finish.

For me, the fact that we hoofed so much didn't matter. It's only natural under the circumstances. We did end up getting the ball in the right positions more than enough times. It's at that point we failed. Which tells you that if you don't have offensive game changers in your team, players like Suarez who make things happen when on the ball - and you rely on workhorses and have-beens up front - you'll find it hard to come by goals. Is anyone really surprised?

Well said Mate. Well said.
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Offline hitnrock

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2011, 08:55:17 AM »
Let's not overlook something here:

Braga pressed us quite high most of the match. At times they had 5-6 players in our half trying to shut off the supply to the midfield. Our midfield (well our whole side) lacks dynamism and passing range. Especially without Gerrard, Agger, Suarez, Aurelio etc. So as a defender, it's quite easy to feel like you're just putting yourself under pressure by playing it short and relying on pass and move in tight spaces to get out of your own half. You add to that the fact that you have two big men up front, and the natural tendency is to go long. You really can't blame Carra for this. He's part of a back 4 of which only one player is comfortable with the ball at his feet. In front of him he's got a player in Lucas who's likely to get pressured and pass it back to a defender. Meanwhile we're down a goal on aggregate and we've got a colossus up front twiddling his thumbs.

Carra is to blame cause he is our must fecking experienced defender.
If he doesn't trust others like lucas or glen with the ball and instead chooses to play a 60 yard hoof ball ,It is his fault.
Everybody in that team has got there for some reason.He isn't there to decide who will give the ball away under pressure.
His job is to pass it to a mid-fielder,he should do that


Braga got their tactics spot on. The only chance we had of getting the ball in good positions was a long ball forward. After that we had to win the 2nd ball and rely on guile and creativity around their 18 yard box. We didn't have any.
I agree with all of this.


You want pass and move football, you need pass and move players. Not just a few, but all of them. Especially the defenders. But pass and move football alone won't win you games (as Arsenal have found out). You still need creativity in the final 3rd and you need to be able to finish.

Pass and move alone does work better than what we are doing.There is a reason why arsenal are that far above us in the table

For me, the fact that we hoofed so much didn't matter. It's only natural under the circumstances. We did end up getting the ball in the right positions more than enough times. It's at that point we failed. Which tells you that if you don't have offensive game changers in your team, players like Suarez who make things happen when on the ball - and you rely on workhorses and have-beens up front - you'll find it hard to come by goals. Is anyone really surprised?
No, its not..I don't see other top or our level teams doing it half as much.
I don't think only carra is to blame ,the whole team is.
And we must rectifying things if we are to go forward.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 08:58:37 AM by hitnrock »
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Goku is almost there, can he stop the ginyu force?
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Re: Lazy
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2011, 09:02:13 AM »
He needs to be on to Carragher and Skrtel every time he's on the training pitch that the next time they play a long ball for the sake of it they're out the next game. 

I was going to say something similar but I must be softer because I was going to say make them do press ups or laps of the pitch every time they (and it wasn’t just Carra although he was the worst culprit) launch one.
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Offline penga

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2011, 09:20:18 AM »
Carra actually got most of his long balls on target at least so he didn't really lose possession much. The fact of the matter is when we played along the ground against Braga we couldn't find a way through. When Carra played it along the ground half the time the ball came straight back at him, whether it be from Lucas, Skrtel or Johnson because Braga were pressuring well and usually at this point he decides to try the long ball.

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2011, 09:21:22 AM »
There were far too many long balls and Carra was a major culprit.  I get the feeling that once we get Gerrard, Agger and Suarez back in it will give us an extra dynamic.


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Re: Lazy
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2011, 09:41:29 AM »
He'll ( Agger) never be fully fit I'm afraid. He'll be close to fitness for a stretch of games and then out for some time. Repeat.
Fair comment.

For me defences are about the whole, not just one player, and I cannot remember the last time when there was so much doubt about what the best combination is. There are question marks about pretty much every defender apart from Kelly, yet individually they also have proven quality. Getting the chemistry right is Kennys big challenge.
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Re: Lazy
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2011, 09:51:00 AM »
Carra actually got most of his long balls on target at least so he didn't really lose possession much. The fact of the matter is when we played along the ground against Braga we couldn't find a way through. When Carra played it along the ground half the time the ball came straight back at him, whether it be from Lucas, Skrtel or Johnson because Braga were pressuring well and usually at this point he decides to try the long ball.
:o

Offline Liverbird 2010

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2011, 09:54:31 AM »
Disgusting it was reminded me of fat Sams Bolton & Wimbledon an utter disgrace, but the past 3 games in this comp have been woeful also, maybe our players think they are to good to be in the Europa League and only want to dine at the CL table, own faults and only themselves to blame for the 7th place finish last season !!!!

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2011, 10:02:23 AM »
Let's not overlook something here:

Braga pressed us quite high most of the match. At times they had 5-6 players in our half trying to shut off the supply to the midfield. Our midfield (well our whole side) lacks dynamism and passing range. Especially without Gerrard, Agger, Suarez, Aurelio etc. So as a defender, it's quite easy to feel like you're just putting yourself under pressure by playing it short and relying on pass and move in tight spaces to get out of your own half. You add to that the fact that you have two big men up front, and the natural tendency is to go long. You really can't blame Carra for this. He's part of a back 4 of which only one player is comfortable with the ball at his feet. In front of him he's got a player in Lucas who's likely to get pressured and pass it back to a defender. Meanwhile we're down a goal on aggregate and we've got a colossus up front twiddling his thumbs.

Braga got their tactics spot on. The only chance we had of getting the ball in good positions was a long ball forward. After that we had to win the 2nd ball and rely on guile and creativity around their 18 yard box. We didn't have any.

You want pass and move football, you need pass and move players. Not just a few, but all of them. Especially the defenders. But pass and move football alone won't win you games (as Arsenal have found out). You still need creativity in the final 3rd and you need to be able to finish.

For me, the fact that we hoofed so much didn't matter. It's only natural under the circumstances. We did end up getting the ball in the right positions more than enough times. It's at that point we failed. Which tells you that if you don't have offensive game changers in your team, players like Suarez who make things happen when on the ball - and you rely on workhorses and have-beens up front - you'll find it hard to come by goals. Is anyone really surprised?

Absolutely this. Don't know if anyone had Alan Green on last night, some guy was on talking absolute 100% senes on the phone in. Realised afterwards, it was Jimmy Case.

It was "easy" in some ways for Braga, they defended very high up the pitch, and as you say, that allowed their defence and midfield to press ours back. Why could they do this? It was simpe, we had zero pace up top. Maxi, Cole, Kuyt, and Carroll are no slouches, no, but they aren't electric pace exactly. Had Suarez been eligible, then they wouldn't have been able to do that (or at least, they woud have been stupid to think they could). But with the personal available, they had a way to stop us.

This meant our only option was the long ball. I knew after the game, people on here would be kicking off, but it was very much a needs must. We had no other option.

While, over the years, we have never really had pacey wingers, we had Torres. And his electric pace, meant teams couldn't defend high up the pitch. He would destroy them. So we pressed high, pushing their defenders back, and putting them under pressure. This is how we used to win games. Add to that we had the creativity of Benayoun, Gerrard who was lethal outside the box, Alonso who could split a defence, and Kuyt who worked his bollox off, and popped up with vital goals. It wasn't at times, "pretty" football, but it was about putting defences under huge pressure, until they cracked. And it worked at times, but sometimes we never found that vital goal (hence all the draws in 08/09).

We now have a new team now though, a new era. Based on simple pass and move football. We have a combination up top of big and strong, with quick and creative. Defences wont be able to defend high up the pitch, but when forced back, Carroll and Suarez will give them big problems. We will also need some pace in the wide areas, which I no doubt will come in the summer. Getting in behind the defence that sits deep, and opening them up.

Just because Carroll is in the team, doesn't mean we will launch it. Anyone who thinks that, just doesn't seem to understand. How else could we have played last night, with the players available? Our options from the bench were very limited, we brought on a Striker and central midfielder for our "wide" players for gods sake. It was what available last night. Cole and Maxi were both relatively poor, working hard yes, but zero in the creative department. Not out pacing defenders, and getting to the byline to get the cross in. Johnson provided us with some of this from the right, which wasn't too bad at times, and Wilson clearly isn't a left back (yet). So it was just a needs must.

Suarez will add so much to this team on the weekend, and the remainder of the season. We will still lack in the key wide areas, but that will be addressed in the summer. I am sure, depending how unrealistic 5th place is come the end of the season, we will see younger lads get a chance too. See what they have in their locker.

Lets all be positive I say. It was a tough night last night, really tough. And so dissapointing. But the way we have played, we did well to get as far as we did. And to be in 6th spot now, from the relegation zone earlier in the season, is a massive climb. We beat United just 2 weeks ago. We have beat Chelsea in recent weeks too. And those matches were no flukes. We have the best crop of young players in many a year (not one or two, 8 or 9 who "could make it). We need some quality added, that is clear, but at least now we have owners who are willing to put the money in.

As hard as it is, lets try and enjoy the last few weeks of the season hey.

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2011, 10:07:10 AM »
Carra actually got most of his long balls on target at least so he didn't really lose possession much.

how can anyone miss a target as big as carroll?

Offline GBF

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2011, 10:12:53 AM »
this shows how much behind we are before we can win the title.  We play like a mid table team and have the occasional good games.  A lot of players in the first 11 should not really be starting games
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Offline caspersmasters

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2011, 10:15:49 AM »
Braga's tactics were spot on last night. They played a high line against a side lacking pace in all areas.I can't remember Johnson,Maxi,Cole,Wilson get beyond the full backs and whip in
 decent crosses that Carroll could thrive on.
I think he actually crossed in the best ball of the night. He just was't able to get in quick enough to get on the end of it as well.
Instead the ball was played from deeper, diagonally giving Carroll too much to do and made it easier for Braga to win the second ball/smother play.

If we're going to utilise Carrolls aerial skills like we trying to do last night then we need quicker wide men.

The short passing game might have worked with Gerrard and suarez on the pitch but KK didn't have that option open to him.




Offline cmoogster

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2011, 10:16:33 AM »
How many shots did we have? That was so appalling to watch, Kenny has his work cut out with that lot, major clearout needed, too many mediocre players not fit.

Offline 1770ben

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2011, 10:18:31 AM »
I had to be reminded that Maxi was on the pitch. I seriously have not seen a game where one player has been so anonymous.
Fay ce que vouldras.

Offline Jookie

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2011, 10:18:40 AM »
Or just getting rid of Carragher as a first teamer would do the trick too because when paired with Agger, Skrtel doesn't play hoof-ball nearly as much

Agger is never fit for a run of games. Relying on his fitness is always going to give us false hope. Ball playing centre back is a must - just don't think we should rely on Agger to be that man. Something we need to address in the summer, along with CM and LB.
I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

Offline GBF

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2011, 10:21:18 AM »
I would get rid of Agger and Fabio before Carra....at least we can use the money (from Agger at least) to get another defender that will manage a couple of games in a row
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Offline Greebo62

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Re: Lazy
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2011, 10:24:43 AM »
Saw the thread title and thought it would be about the classic Deep Purple track.

 If Only.

 Dire Football. Crap atmosphere. Lazy sums it up.
We have the Truth at last.  Now let's carry on the fight for the Justice.