Topic: Jay Spearing- Better Late than Never

[Sangria]

This is exactly why you don't get. Mascherano is a very specialized player. He is one of the best in the world at breaking up play and winnign the ball back. Alongside Alonso who is one of the best playmakers int he world, it can work because the balance is right Mascheranos job is to break up play and win the ball back.

Prior to going to barca, Masch's passing wasn't great. This basically restricted his role to breaking up play and giving the ball to Alonso to start our attacking play. Alonso is good enough to do that all by himself.

Lucas on the other hand is a mix of both Mascherano and Alonso but not as good as either at their best quality. This is where Spearing compliments him. while Spearing is not great at anything, he is a high pressure player and he also moves the ball on quickly. Unlike Masch, Lucas doesn't just win the ball back and give it to his midfield partner to start attacks. When he is on the ball, he will move it quickly to the wide man or the player in front of him.


With masch and Lucas together, the onus is on one of the two to be the creative playmaker. This will never be Mascherano so it will naturally fall back on Lucas who isn't an Alonso. Thats why it didn't work. With Spearing and Lucas, both move the ball on quickly into the forward positions so the creativity is for the forward players.

When Spearing/Lucas played together, we looked like world beaters even though Spearing is an average player.  This is simply because the balance of the team is more important than individual ability. On the other hand, partnerships such as alonso/Gerrard, Gerrard/Mascherano, Mascherano/Lucas have all been failures despite the players involved all being better than Spearing.

There wasn't much wrong with Lucas/Mascherano and plenty right, as long as the team is themed right and consistently. That pair can outfight any other midfield in the world, and you can pretty much guarantee at least a 50% share of the midfield and no coherent opposition attacking pressure coming through the middle, no matter how illustrious or numerous their midfield is. Since you've stymied the opposition midfield, which is usually the main engine of any team, what you do to exploit this is have as much attacking ability as possible everywhere else. Push up high and shape your defence on the expectation that only isolated attacks will be coming their way. Have FBs who are comfortable in attack. Have attackers who are comfortable in possession and will keep the ball when they get it. Shape the whole team around the expectation that very little will be coming from the opposition thanks to Lucas/Mascherano.

Personally, I thought that team was reasonably coherent, with one marginal exception (Kuyt) and one huge exception (Carragher). My preferred first step was to replace Carragher and have an Agger/Skrtel pairing, after which many of the problems solve themselves. Instead, we went an alternative route, replacing everything but Carragher, including the manager. By the time we finally saw Agger/Skrtel, most of the team had already fallen apart.

[farawayred]

Aye, you can't deny that Rossi!

Still, one down, two to go. (OK, three if you include Adam)

I think *fingers crossed so as not to jinx it* we're finally going to get a clean sweep mate. Or should that be 'flush'?

You guys are on a roll!

[Wirral1]

Fair enough, I'll leave it there. You have issues with Gerrard, I get that. My issue isn't with him so this whole thing is pointless.

I have issues with all players...try it sometime.

[conman]

Thats bang on lfc. Mash was rather meek in posession.

Jay is a bit of a jack of all trades, but master of none.

[LFC_4_life]

There wasn't much wrong with Lucas/Mascherano and plenty right, as long as the team is themed right and consistently. That pair can outfight any other midfield in the world, and you can pretty much guarantee at least a 50% share of the midfield and no coherent opposition attacking pressure coming through the middle, no matter how illustrious or numerous their midfield is. Since you've stymied the opposition midfield, which is usually the main engine of any team, what you do to exploit this is have as much attacking ability as possible everywhere else. Push up high and shape your defence on the expectation that only isolated attacks will be coming their way. Have FBs who are comfortable in attack. Have attackers who are comfortable in possession and will keep the ball when they get it. Shape the whole team around the expectation that very little will be coming from the opposition thanks to Lucas/Mascherano.

Personally, I thought that team was reasonably coherent, with one marginal exception (Kuyt) and one huge exception (Carragher). My preferred first step was to replace Carragher and have an Agger/Skrtel pairing, after which many of the problems solve themselves. Instead, we went an alternative route, replacing everything but Carragher, including the manager. By the time we finally saw Agger/Skrtel, most of the team had already fallen apart.

I see the theory behind what you are sayinmg. Theoretically, it makes sense. The problem is, when you are Liverpool FC, you are playing against teams that park the bus. Regarding your statement: "Shape the whole team around the expectation that very little will be coming from the opposition thanks to Lucas/Mascherano." Regardless of Mascherano/Lucas, very little comes fromt he park the bus merchants anyway. This is really why it didn't work. We just didn't have enough going forward with Lucas and Mascherano and we would inevitably concede a goal (despite the added protection of Lucas/Mascherano) and lose game.

Despite both players being better than Spearing, Spearing and Lucas was a better, more fluid and balanced partnership for reason I explained in my last post.

[rafathegaffa83]

Why? Because, my learned friend, the gesture was not meant for the eyes and attention of one Andrew Carroll, but for the observing Mr Kenneth Dalglish, Steven Clarke and the watching forty thousand Liverpool fans. Mr Spearing was simply trying to reinforce the failing perception that he knew what he was doing out there on the pitch.

I agree. I think those actions make it appear that he's doing more than he actually he is.

I don't think Lucas' fitness should have anything to do with it. We can't rely on Lucas. We did so too heavily last year and paid the price. Now he's coming off the back of a summer of rehabilitation as well.

I've said it before, but Allen should be our number one target this summer, because not only is he a bloody good toggerist, he'd also represent a great statement of intent from Rodgers: the end of Spearing and Adam's careers here.

Definitely. Spearing has shown that if Lucas gets injured, he isn't good enough to perform on a regular basis. His limitations are strikingly evident and I don't think they'll be ameliorated by Rodgers being here.

[LFC_4_life]

Thats bang on lfc. Mash was rather meek in posession.

Jay is a bit of a jack of all trades, but master of none.

Thanks.  This is just an example, but say Lucas is the only midfielder who we have who you could say is a 8-9 in all facets of the game now (he wasn't at the time that he partnered with Masch). Spearing might be a 6 in all facets of the game, while Masch is a 10 at certain things and a 4 at others and likewise, Gerrard is a 10 at something and a 4 at other things.

It's about finding the right balance in midfield so that all facets are covered by atleast one player.

Jay isn't a great player, but what he can do to an acceptable standa

[LFC_4_life]

Definitely. Spearing has shown that if Lucas gets injured, he isn't good enough to perform on a regular basis. His limitations are strikingly evident and I don't think they'll be ameliorated by Rodgers being here.

This is true. Without a Lucas to make up for his limitations, Spearing is exposed. The problem is, the same can be said for all our other midfielders.

Lucas is so important to our midfield that if he is not there, every other midfielder we have gets exposed.

[Vidocq]

This is exactly why you don't get. Mascherano is a very specialized player. He is one of the best in the world at breaking up play and winnign the ball back. Alongside Alonso who is one of the best playmakers int he world, it can work because the balance is right Mascheranos job is to break up play and win the ball back.

Prior to going to barca, Masch's passing wasn't great. This basically restricted his role to breaking up play and giving the ball to Alonso to start our attacking play. Alonso is good enough to do that all by himself.

Lucas on the other hand is a mix of both Mascherano and Alonso but not as good as either at their best quality. This is where Spearing compliments him. while Spearing is not great at anything, he is a high pressure player and he also moves the ball on quickly. Unlike Masch, Lucas doesn't just win the ball back and give it to his midfield partner to start attacks. When he is on the ball, he will move it quickly to the wide man or the player in front of him.


With masch and Lucas together, the onus is on one of the two to be the creative playmaker. This will never be Mascherano so it will naturally fall back on Lucas who isn't an Alonso. Thats why it didn't work. With Spearing and Lucas, both move the ball on quickly into the forward positions so the creativity is for the forward players.

When Spearing/Lucas played together, we looked like world beaters even though Spearing is an average player.  This is simply because the balance of the team is more important than individual ability. On the other hand, partnerships such as alonso/Gerrard, Gerrard/Mascherano, Mascherano/Lucas have all been failures despite the players involved all being better than Spearing.

spot on mate

[Sangria]

I see the theory behind what you are sayinmg. Theoretically, it makes sense. The problem is, when you are Liverpool FC, you are playing against teams that park the bus. Regarding your statement: "Shape the whole team around the expectation that very little will be coming from the opposition thanks to Lucas/Mascherano." Regardless of Mascherano/Lucas, very little comes fromt he park the bus merchants anyway. This is really why it didn't work. We just didn't have enough going forward with Lucas and Mascherano and we would inevitably concede a goal (despite the added protection of Lucas/Mascherano) and lose game.

Despite both players being better than Spearing, Spearing and Lucas was a better, more fluid and balanced partnership for reason I explained in my last post.

To beat bus parkers, you need quality up front, which is expensive. Or you need bodies in the box, which requires some kind of insurance in case the ball breaks loose, either with a quick defence, a quick midfield, or both. Not some magical ingredient which is called creativity (Lucas used to be abused for lacking all sorts of qualities, which were defined by virtue of Lucas not having them). I think Spearing passes the ball marginally quicker than Mascherano (I think I was the first to point this out), which can make more sense in a team geared for that. But it doesn't mean Lucas/Spearing was a better midfield than Lucas/Mascherano. They make different kinds of sense.

[Red Crown]

All arguments about whether a player is good enough are, by their nature, comparative arguments. If Jay Spearing was playing amongst a set of Sefton park Sunday league amateurs he would easily be the best player on the pitch. If you say Jay Spearing is not good enough for this squad, you are actually saying the other players are better. It is not, therefore, unreasonable to point out other players weaknesses in order to make the point that Spearing may not actually be a worse player than other players people seem to prefer.

The 'this is a strawman argument' is, itself, a strawman.

PS...I'm watching the Toronto game...there appear to be quite a lot of long passes......

Err... No.  A strawman argument is knocking down an argument that no one has made in order to appear as if you've defeated the point.

[Sangria]

This is true. Without a Lucas to make up for his limitations, Spearing is exposed. The problem is, the same can be said for all our other midfielders.

Lucas is so important to our midfield that if he is not there, every other midfielder we have gets exposed.

I said back in 2009 that Lucas is the basic building block of a midfield, and you add other ingredients to theme it one way or another.

[LFC_4_life]

To beat bus parkers, you need quality up front, which is expensive. Or you need bodies in the box, which requires some kind of insurance in case the ball breaks loose, either with a quick defence, a quick midfield, or both. Not some magical ingredient which is called creativity (Lucas used to be abused for lacking all sorts of qualities, which were defined by virtue of Lucas not having them). I think Spearing passes the ball marginally quicker than Mascherano (I think I was the first to point this out), which can make more sense in a team geared for that. But it doesn't mean Lucas/Spearing was a better midfield than Lucas/Mascherano. They make different kinds of sense.

I am going by the results of the partnerships. The theory behind a partnership is for before the game begins. Some can make sense in theory and fail miserablely when impemented in practice. Masch/Lucas seemed to affect the whole balance of the team  and as a result, we were very poor as a team. Some of that can be attributed to Masch and Lucas not working well enough as I explained in my previous posts.

On the other hand, when Spearing an Lucas played, the whole team had the right balance. No one complained about Spearing and everyone began raving about ucas and the whole team played great.

In the last 3 years, this is the only period where we have remotely looked like a great team for a sustained period of time. The fact that this was achievable with an average jack of all trades like Spearing shows that it's all about the team and all about the balance.

Spearing/Lucas were our best partnership in the last 3 years on results. That shows that Spearing has a place in the squad and can slot into the team and be a valuable memeber of a team that looks like world beaters. Asking for him to be one of the main cogs of the team is a different story but you would expect that to be the role for someone else who isn't just a squad player.

[LFC_4_life]

I said back in 2009 that Lucas is the basic building block of a midfield, and you add other ingredients to theme it one way or another.

I agree with this. My point is that from the available options, even though he is just an average player, I think that Spearing (and Aquilani) are the two who would allow us to theme the midfield in the most balanced way.

[geoffstrong]

Just had a look at your post history - most of your posts are slagging off Gerrard. I'm not interested in that argument as my issue is with Geoff's posting style. I'll leave you to your Stevie bashing if its all the same to you.

 

Oh there we have it you have a problem with my posting style even though you totally missed the point of the initial post which has been explained in detail for you!
So how about you try this ignore my posts or check the content better rather than worry about the style.

Now what about Spearing?

[cezred]

 

Oh there we have it you have a problem with my posting style even though you totally missed the point of the initial post which has been explained in detail for you!
So how about you try this ignore my posts or check the content better rather than worry about the style.

Now what about Spearing?

 

What's been explained? All I saw was someone who didn't know what a straw man was trying to argue the toss over what a straw man is. Plus his whole motivation was too slag off Gerrard.

Your argument was bullshit, the same as pretty much every argument you ever put forward. But, then again, what else should I expect from a habitual brown noser who edits his own custom title.

[No666]

Thankyou

I am still waiting for someone to name me a better midfield partnership that we have had in the last 3 years than Lucas/Spearing.

What does it matter when you consider what our results have been like over the past three years? Don't we aspire to better?

[nocturnalvin]

I am going by the results of the partnerships. The theory behind a partnership is for before the game begins. Some can make sense in theory and fail miserablely when impemented in practice. Masch/Lucas seemed to affect the whole balance of the team  and as a result, we were very poor as a team. Some of that can be attributed to Masch and Lucas not working well enough as I explained in my previous posts.

On the other hand, when Spearing an Lucas played, the whole team had the right balance. No one complained about Spearing and everyone began raving about ucas and the whole team played great.

In the last 3 years, this is the only period where we have remotely looked like a great team for a sustained period of time. The fact that this was achievable with an average jack of all trades like Spearing shows that it's all about the team and all about the balance.

Spearing/Lucas were our best partnership in the last 3 years on results. That shows that Spearing has a place in the squad and can slot into the team and be a valuable memeber of a team that looks like world beaters. Asking for him to be one of the main cogs of the team is a different story but you would expect that to be the role for someone else who isn't just a squad player.

the only constant is Lucas though at this moment. He's the key midfield man. We should improve on Spearing, and i don't rate him as highly as you clearly do. He's good at certain things for sure, i think his passing is quite underrated but positioning and running headless chicken style after a ball isn't.

[LFC_4_life]

What does it matter when you consider what our results have been like over the past three years? Don't we aspire to better?

Yes, of course we do. But the point I am making is that of the players we currently have, Spearing and Lucas have already proven to have been our best midfield partnership in the last 3 years. When they were our midfield, we looked like world beaters for nearly 5 months. Surely, from our available options (Aquilani not included as we don't know if he will even be here), Spearing would be the one to consider to partner Lucas (gaurenteed starter).

The question about midfield should be, who compliments Lucas best? I think that from our current options (Aquilani aside), Spearing is the answer.

[Wirral1]

Err... No.  A strawman argument is knocking down an argument that no one has made in order to appear as if you've defeated the point.

Yes you are right. Reinterpreting somebody's argument as a strawman and then knocking down that strawman is er......

[macca888]

To be totally fair, Spearing was better than Lucas from December onwards and England's saviour Jack Wilshere for pretty much the whole season. Gutted that I could only boo Lucas on twitter for the last few months if I'm honest. I hope he recovers quickly though cos I've had a few cans of Tennants Extra and I've got me fucking shouting head on.

[nocturnalvin]

To be totally fair, Spearing was better than Lucas from December onwards and England's saviour Jack Wilshere for pretty much the whole season. Gutted that I could only boo Lucas on twitter for the last few months if I'm honest. I hope he recovers quickly though cos I've had a few cans of Tennants Extra and I've got me fucking shouting head on.

hahaha.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Yes, of course we do. But the point I am making is that of the players we currently have, Spearing and Lucas have already proven to have been our best midfield partnership in the last 3 years. When they were our midfield, we looked like world beaters for nearly 5 months. Surely, from our available options (Aquilani not included as we don't know if he will even be here), Spearing would be the one to consider to partner Lucas (gaurenteed starter).

The question about midfield should be, who compliments Lucas best? I think that from our current options (Aquilani aside), Spearing is the answer.

Ermm, you seem to be missing Raul in the midfield that Spearing played in, also the really bad form of Gerrard caused more problems for  Masch/Lucas. Saying Raul, Lucas and Spearing made a better impact than Lucas, Gerrard and Masch might make more sense.

[LFC_4_life]

the only constant is Lucas though at this moment. He's the key midfield man. We should improve on Spearing, and i don't rate him as highly as you clearly do. He's good at certain things for sure, i think his passing is quite underrated but positioning and running headless chicken style after a ball isn't.

I only rate Spearing if he is playing besides Lucas because Lucas covers his deficincies and Spearings positives are accentuated. His headless chicken style running after the ball is well complimented by Lucas's positioning and tackling.

We should always be looking to improve the team but why upgrade Spearing and not someone else? Spearing is cheap, young and happy to be a squad player and has proven in the last 3 years that he can play with Lucas and compliment him well. No other midfielder currently at the club has proven they can compliment him.

[cezred]

Yes you are right. Reinterpreting somebody's argument as a strawman and then knocking down that strawman is er......

I'm clearly confused on this whole straw man thing. Please complete your sentence.

[nocturnalvin]

I only rate Spearing if he is playing besides Lucas because Lucas covers his deficincies and Spearings positives are accentuated. His headless chicken style running after the ball is well complimented by Lucas's positioning and tackling.

We should always be looking to improve the team but why upgrade Spearing and not someone else? Spearing is cheap, young and happy to be a squad player and has proven in the last 3 years that he can play with Lucas and compliment him well. No other midfielder currently at the club has proven they can compliment him.

I do not think he is high on the list of those FSG wants to get rid. He's cheap on wages, and a good local lad to have around even though that doesn't matter much to FSG.

And any incomers are not likely to take Spearing's space. He isn't first eleven, even if the new lad knock Spearing off the ladder. It doesn't matter to the management though because he isn't on much wages in the first place.

Not on the list of priorities at all, whether he stays or goes.

[LFC_4_life]

Ermm, you seem to be missing Raul in the midfield that Spearing played in, also the really bad form of Gerrard caused more problems for  Masch/Lucas. Saying Raul, Lucas and Spearing made a better impact than Lucas, Gerrard and Masch might make more sense.

Miereles was the third man in midfield. He was at the tip of the triangle just behind the striker. Lucas and Spearing were the two man midfield in the 4-2-3-1. Raul deserves credit also, but seeing as he is no longer at the club and not an option for selection, there is no point debating him.

As for the bad form of Gerrard, that to me is a result of the Masch/Lucas partnership. Gerrard needs someone to be behind him pulling the strings. When Alsono left, he didn't have that and he didn't have anyone feeding the ball to him quickly enough. Also, Gerrard is not the same player anymore and is on a sharp decline as a player.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Miereles was the third man in midfield. He was at the tip of the triangle just behind the striker. Lucas and Spearing were the two man midfield in the 4-2-3-1. Raul deserves credit also, but seeing as he is no longer at the club and not an option for selection, there is no point debating him.

As for the bad form of Gerrard, that to me is a result of the Masch/Lucas partnership. Gerrard needs someone to be behind him pulling the strings. When Alsono left, he didn't have that and he didn't have anyone feeding the ball to him quickly enough. Also, Gerrard is not the same player anymore and is on a sharp decline as a player.

No lad. It was proven that Lucas played the ball into Gerrard's feet as often as Alonso, if not more so. You cannot talk about the midfield with talking about the third man in it. Raul's movement was far better than Gerrard's. We also played a counter attacking game under Dalglish, while with Rafa in his last season we often struggled against teams that sat back.

Under Rafa it wasn't the failing of the two to make chances but the failing s of the front four. Lucas and Masch did their job very well, better than Spearing and Lucas.

[LFC_4_life]

No lad. It was proven that Lucas played the ball into Gerrard's feet as often as Alonso, if not more so. You cannot talk about the midfield with talking about the third man in it. Raul's movement was far better than Gerrard's. We also played a counter attacking game under Dalglish, while with Rafa in his last season we often struggled against teams that sat back.

Under Rafa it wasn't the failing of the two to make chances but the failing s of the front four. Lucas and Masch did their job very well, better than Spearing and Lucas.

And how was it proven that Lucas played the ball to Gerrards feet as often as Alonso?

[Not funny reecehenebry]

And how was it proven that Lucas played the ball to Gerrards feet as often as Alonso?

Chalkboards. In fact I think it showed that Lucas tended to pass the ball into feet more than Alonso, and that Kuyt suffered as he received the ball later in the attack, when he struggled to make space for himself. I do remember screaming for Rafa to play Benny in the hole instead of Gerrard, as Gerrard kept passing the ball back to midfield when he received the ball with his back to goal. Never was comfortable with that, as he showed against France and Utd.

[geoffstrong]

What's been explained? All I saw was someone who didn't know what a straw man was trying to argue the toss over what a straw man is. Plus his whole motivation was too slag off Gerrard.

Your argument was bullshit, the same as pretty much every argument you ever put forward. But, then again, what else should I expect from a habitual brown noser who edits his own custom title.

You know I have not used any abuse at you, shame you needed to , lessons your argument really, oh and anyone can alter their profile at anytime , now perhaps you can cut out the needless abuse and tell us what you think about Spearing

[mtred1984]

Spearing at best is a squad player, he played the majority of the season due to lucas's injury. If lucas hadnt of got the injury we all no he would of been spearingly used and he wouldnt be getting as much grief.

[LFC_4_life]

Chalkboards. In fact I think it showed that Lucas tended to pass the ball into feet more than Alonso, and that Kuyt suffered as he received the ball later in the attack, when he struggled to make space for himself. I do remember screaming for Rafa to play Benny in the hole instead of Gerrard, as Gerrard kept passing the ball back to midfield when he received the ball with his back to goal. Never was comfortable with that, as he showed against France and Utd.

I would like to see these chalkboards. I would be very surprised as I seem to rememeber people using the chalkboards to try and show the opposite. You may be right, but I am just going by what I rememeber when I watched them play. To me, Lucas and Masch just didn't seem to have the chemistry and it seemed that the ball stayed in midfield or defence for too long until the inevitable long ball.

[mtred1984]

I would like to see these chalkboards. I would be very surprised as I seem to rememeber people using the chalkboards to try and show the opposite. You may be right, but I am just going by what I rememeber when I watched them play. To me, Lucas and Masch just didn't seem to have the chemistry and it seemed that the ball stayed in midfield or defence for too long until the inevitable long ball.

Your right mate. The ball would end up with mascherano who would constantly try to force the play and give it away. Mascherano was brilliant ball winner, but asked to create or pass the ball,  he was very limited

[Sangria]

I would like to see these chalkboards. I would be very surprised as I seem to rememeber people using the chalkboards to try and show the opposite. You may be right, but I am just going by what I rememeber when I watched them play. To me, Lucas and Masch just didn't seem to have the chemistry and it seemed that the ball stayed in midfield or defence for too long until the inevitable long ball.

I think much of it lay in Mascherano's lack of trust in Lucas. Gerrard had the same problem in early versions of Lucas-Gerrard. One reason why Lucas-Meireles worked so well in comparison was their trust in each other. By the time Lucas-Gerrard made a reappearance, Lucas had already established himself, most notably with an undeniably dominant performance in Hodgson's 2-0 win over Chelsea where Torres scored a brace. When talking about Lucas's lack of chemistry with Mascherano, one should remember the first appearance of Lucas-Spearing, which was one of the worst midfields we've had in recent years (Spearing infamously failed to make a challenge in 90 minutes).

[LFC_4_life]

I think much of it lay in Mascherano's lack of trust in Lucas. Gerrard had the same problem in early versions of Lucas-Gerrard. One reason why Lucas-Meireles worked so well in comparison was their trust in each other. By the time Lucas-Gerrard made a reappearance, Lucas had already established himself, most notably with an undeniably dominant performance in Hodgson's 2-0 win over Chelsea where Torres scored a brace. When talking about Lucas's lack of chemistry with Mascherano, one should remember the first appearance of Lucas-Spearing, which was one of the worst midfields we've had in recent years (Spearing infamously failed to make a challenge in 90 minutes).

Gerrard has a history of being underwhelming as one of the two in the middle of the midfield. He has had failed partnerships with Mascherano in the past who was a top player at the time so I'm inclined to beleive that it isn't a trust.

Can you please refresh my mind regarding which match you are reffering to about the Lucas-Spearing horror show.

I just think that Spearing compliments Lucas very well. He is not a great player but he can be a good midfield partner.

[Wirral1]

I'm clearly confused on this whole straw man thing. Please complete your sentence.

......a strawman argument.......

If there was only one football player in the world...how would you know if he was any good?.......the only measure of any player is comparison.

To characterise the person who presents a comparison as somehow attempting to redirect/subvert the argument is itself deliberate misrepresentation, as there is no other possible argument to differentiate any player from any other, thus, creating a strawman argument.

In this instance, he who shouts 'strawman' IS the strawman.

[cezred]

......a strawman argument.......

If there was only one football player in the world...how would you know if he was any good?.......the only measure is comparison.

To characterise the person who presents a comparison as somehow attempting to redirect/subvert the argument is itself creating a strawman argument.

He who shouts 'strawman' IS the strawman.

'Is the straw man? By pointing out whatever it is you think you've pointed out there are you now the straw man? By saying that am I now the straw man again? What the hell are you on about?

Nobody is the straw man. The straw man is an argument put forward by a person not an actual person.

Your logic is so utterly flawed I honestly don't know where to begin. I suggest you do a little reading on this subject before you try to come back at me as, to be frank, you're embarrassing yourself here.

[Wirral1]

'Is the straw man? By pointing out whatever it is you think you've pointed out there are you now the straw man? By saying that am I now the straw man again? What the hell are you on about?

Nobody is the straw man. The straw man is an argument put forward by a person not an actual person.

Your logic is so utterly flawed I honestly don't know where to begin. I suggest you do a little reading on this subject before you try to come back at me as, to be frank, you're embarrassing yourself here.

Try going through the logic....slowly.....

Explain to yourself how any player can be judged good or bad without comparison.

Next, explain to yourself that a comparison of the merits of two players can never be a strawman argument..as there is no other measure to use.

Next, explain to yourself that defining such a comparison as a strawman argument is a misrepresentation of that argument and thus a strawman argument itself.

A strawman can be an argument or a person who represents that argument.

Explain the flaws.


PS. the 'you're embarrassing yourself '  line is so unimaginative. 4/10...could do better...

[geoffstrong]

All this fuss over one post, incredible.