Topic: Jay Spearing- Better Late than Never

[geoffstrong]

Has the Fulham game at home and the calamitous cup final still not convinced people on here that given where we want to get to as a club, this player should not even be a squad player, nevermind a first team regular? When will the penny drop and what will it take to finally hammer that home to some people on here?

so you make your judgement on two games how does that work Stevie was shit in more than two shall we bin him as well?
as for when will the penny drop get real he is a good squad player who was far from the worst last season, by the way the cup final a few much higher priced players were far worse you may have missed in your myopic review of the game.

[yorkykopite]

As Yorky has pointed out before, by pointing he's giving his opponent an idea about where potential passes are going. It's the type of thing players do, which makes them look busy, without taking on the actual responsibility of using the ball and moving into better positions

One could say - at the risk of a wee bit of reductionism - that ALL football is about creating surprise through disguise. The aim is to make your opponent think you're going to do something other than what you're actually going to do. This applies to the feint in the dribble, the open body and the closed shot, the dummy cross etc etc. But it applies even to the humble easy pass. Good footballers naturally put a little shimmy into their body to execute the 'obvious' pass just in order to make it a little less obvious. If you can deceive an opponent even for a fraction of a second by - say - momentarily making him put his weight on his left foot rather than right, then you buy your colleague that extra bit of time. The trouble with Spearing's pointing (and usually it is the obvious he's pointing at) is that it undercuts the little disguise that the man on the ball is trying to conjure. I'd be bloody furious if a teammate was constantly telling the opposition where I was about to put the ball. It's called telegraphing in coaching manuals and it's generally discouraged. 

For Spearing though it is like a nervous tick. It seems he just cannot help it. For those know know little about football I guess it might look like he's pulling the strings. But here's a secret. There are no strings.

[artanis]

so you make your judgement on two games how does that work Stevie was shit in more than two shall we bin him as well?
as for when will the penny drop get real he is a good squad player who was far from the worst last season, by the way the cup final a few much higher priced players were far worse you may have missed in your myopic review of the game.

When you mention "Stevie", what you are doing is erecting a straw man to then knock it down. It's called a straw man argument, because it's easy to knock it down. Discussion is about Spearing. As much as I like the guy on a personal level (never seen him leave anything on the pitch, he give that proverbial 110% every game) he does not posses the quality or the physicality to be a player deserving a spot in the 25 man roster.

[geoffstrong]

When you mention "Stevie", what you are doing is erecting a straw man to then knock it down. It's called a straw man argument, because it's easy to knock it down. Discussion is about Spearing. As much as I like the guy on a personal level (never seen him leave anything on the pitch, he give that proverbial 110% every game) he does not posses the quality or the physicality to be a player deserving a spot in the 25 man roster.

not really just highlighting the fact that he used two games only as evidence of his superior knowledge when assessing players, so it highlighted the futility in his theory, as for this strawman comment it is getting so last season!

[rossipersiempre]

One could say - at the risk of a wee bit of reductionism - that ALL football is about creating surprise through disguise. The aim is to make your opponent think you're going to do something other than what you're actually going to do. This applies to the feint in the dribble, the open body and the closed shot, the dummy cross etc etc. But it applies even to the humble easy pass. Good footballers naturally put a little shimmy into their body to execute the 'obvious' pass just in order to make it a little less obvious. If you can deceive an opponent even for a fraction of a second by - say - momentarily making him put his weight on his left foot rather than right, then you buy your colleague that extra bit of time. The trouble with Spearing's pointing (and usually it is the obvious he's pointing at) is that it undercuts the little disguise that the man on the ball is trying to conjure. I'd be bloody furious if a teammate was constantly telling the opposition where I was about to put the ball. It's called telegraphing in coaching manuals and it's generally discouraged. 

For Spearing though it is like a nervous tick. It seems he just cannot help it. For those know know little about football I guess it might look like he's pulling the strings. But here's a secret. There are no strings.

Maybe send Spearing to Swansea on loan (part of the deal for Allen?) and get Laudrup to teach him his patented reverse 'blind' pass.

The results would be hilarious if nothing else.

[Chakan]

Maybe send Spearing to Swansea on loan (part of the deal for Allen?) and get Laudrup to teach him his patented reverse 'blind' pass.

The results would be hilarious if nothing else.

He'd break his arm trying to point behind him

[Kovai Red]

He'd break his arm trying to point behind him

But, he still has a job to do for us. He wont disappoint us very often.

[Nessy76]

When you mention "Stevie", what you are doing is erecting a straw man to then knock it down. It's called a straw man argument, because it's easy to knock it down. Discussion is about Spearing. As much as I like the guy on a personal level (never seen him leave anything on the pitch, he give that proverbial 110% every game) he does not posses the quality or the physicality to be a player deserving a spot in the 25 man roster.

We only have 23 to go on the list at the moment, and that's assuming no-one else leaves.

[macca888]

He'd break his arm trying to point behind him

I can actually picture him looking like Houdini in a straightjacket trying to play that pass 

[gavleopardi]

so you make your judgement on two games how does that work Stevie was shit in more than two shall we bin him as well?
as for when will the penny drop get real he is a good squad player who was far from the worst last season, by the way the cup final a few much higher priced players were far worse you may have missed in your myopic review of the game.

As someone above has just highlighted the stevie straw man argument I won't reiterate that again. No, let's leave every other player that's represented the club and its history aside and focus on 'wee' Jay's ability alone and our expectations for ourselves as a club. With that in mind have a look at how many clubs - or should that be the calibre of clubs - that will be looking to take him if (more likely 'when') he's finally allowed to leave. It wasn't just the FA cup final that convinced me - I've been saying this for years. I'm sure he's a lovely person (and he mistakenly beeped me on the way to the training ground once - which was very nice - and I waved!) but sentiments aside, c'mon please, even as a squad player? Shelvey has more in his single left toe than Spearing will ever have - and he's four years younger!!! I keep saying this to those who still look at Jay as the up and coming youth player some think he is - HE'S ONE YEAR YOUNGER THAN LUCAS FFS!!!!!!

[rossipersiempre]

He'd break his arm trying to point behind him

I was thinking more along these lines...

[No666]

He'd break his arm trying to point behind him

He actually pointed behind himself on Saturday, swivelled the body, pointed towards the centre backs and was summarily ignored. This is the saving grace - he isn't telegraphing to the opposition because his team mates tend to ignore him. It is, as Yorky says, a nervous tic. Like the guy who keeps sniffing on the train next to you, it grates, but whether it's doing any harm is another matter. It's his slowing of the tempo that bothers me more.

[yorkykopite]

Gerrard's had a few bad games for Liverpool therefore Spearing is good enough!

It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? 

[Nessy76]

He actually pointed behind himself on Saturday, swivelled the body, pointed towards the centre backs and was summarily ignored. This is the saving grace - he isn't telegraphing to the opposition because his team mates tend to ignore him. It is, as Yorky says, a nervous tic. Like the guy who keeps sniffing on the train next to you, it grates, but whether it's doing any harm is another matter. It's his slowing of the tempo that bothers me more.

God I hate that.

[Sangria]

One could say - at the risk of a wee bit of reductionism - that ALL football is about creating surprise through disguise. The aim is to make your opponent think you're going to do something other than what you're actually going to do. This applies to the feint in the dribble, the open body and the closed shot, the dummy cross etc etc. But it applies even to the humble easy pass. Good footballers naturally put a little shimmy into their body to execute the 'obvious' pass just in order to make it a little less obvious. If you can deceive an opponent even for a fraction of a second by - say - momentarily making him put his weight on his left foot rather than right, then you buy your colleague that extra bit of time.

Another excuse to watch that Falcao goal again. I still don't see what it was that he did, but he must have done something for those Italian defenders to all see the same thing.

[rossipersiempre]

I don't agree it's a "nervous tic". That suggests it's completely involuntary.

Whereas I think he does it on purpose, in order to mask the embarrassing reality of his own limited ineffective contribution.

The only person I can recall doing similar was Xabi. And even then it was usually Djimi Traore on the receiving end of such 'guidance'. I don't think I need to point out the contrast.

[yorkykopite]

Another excuse to watch that Falcao goal again. I still don't see what it was that he did, but he must have done something for those Italian defenders to all see the same thing.

One of the finest goals of all time, right? Like you say it must have been the subtlest of movements. But clearly something happened. After all we're looking at one of the stingiest and hard core defences of all time.

[rossipersiempre]

Another excuse to watch that Falcao goal again. I still don't see what it was that he did, but he must have done something for those Italian defenders to all see the same thing.

He gave it "the eyes".

[yorkykopite]

I don't agree it's a "nervous tic". That suggests it's completely involuntary.

Whereas I think he does it on purpose, in order to mask the embarrassing reality of his own limited ineffective contribution.

The only person I can recall doing similar was Xabi. And even then it was usually Djimi Traore on the receiving end of such 'guidance'. I don't think I need to point out the contrast.

Xabi was doing it in the second half in Istanbul every time Djimi got the ball. The lad had been a wreck in the first '45 and the trauma had been sufficient to clear his memory banks of how to play any kind of football, even Djimi-football. In a way it helped Liverpool since he then became a willing extension of Xabi Alonso's thought processes. Must have been exhausting for Alonso, but it helped see us through.

Jay's is a tic though. It's got to be. It's the same involuntary spasm that sees him put both arms stiff down his sides with palms open when he's running. The gesture is meant to say 'Someone make themselves available for a pass', but what it really says is 'Panic! Panic! I don't know what to do'.   

And just to complete the repetoire. Anyone like him raising both hands in the air, standing absolutely still and calling for the ball when there are about five opponents in between him and the man on it?

Thought not.

But should you want to torment yourself there's a lovely example yo be seen about 15 minutes into the Toronto game.

[scatman]

its the tempo of his play and the headless chicken like pressing which he really needs to sort out. If you are going to be the holding player you cannot be pressing and pushing up at every opportunity, he needs to pick them. I wonder how many interceptions Jay actually has on average per game.

[cezred]

as for this strawman comment it is getting so last season!

If you stop constantly resorting to straw man arguments I'm sure people will stop pulling you up on it.

Simple really.

[rossipersiempre]

Xabi was doing it in the second half in Istanbul every time Djimi got the ball. The lad had been a wreck in the first '45 and the trauma had been sufficient to clear his memory banks of how to play any kind of football, even Djimi-football. In a way it helped Liverpool since he then became a willing extension of Xabi Alonso's thought processes. Must have been exhausting for Alonso, but it helped see us through.

Jay's is a tic though. It's got to be. It's the same involuntary spasm that sees him put both arms stiff down his sides with palms open when he's running. The gesture is meant to say 'Someone make themselves available for a pass', but what it really says is 'Panic! Panic! I don't know what to do'.   

And just to complete the repetoire. Anyone like him raising both hands in the air, standing absolutely still and calling for the ball when there are about five opponents in between him and the man on it?

Thought not.

But should you want to torment yourself there's a lovely example yo be seen about 15 minutes into the Toronto game.

See, I still disagree Yorky, he doesn't have footballing Tourette's.

Same as that other symptom you've described, "the Statue", in my opinion he knows full well he's doing it and also why.

[yorkykopite]

See, I still disagree Yorky, he doesn't have footballing Tourette's.

Same as that other symptom you've described, "the Statue", in my opinion he knows full well he's doing it and also why.

Then why does he do it when the player on the ball can't possibly see him? I recall seeing him telling Andy Carroll to pass the ball out to Maxi on the wing towards the end of last season. It was the wrong pass of course and Carroll ignored him. But in a way he had no choice. Spearing was standing behind him at the time and unless Carroll was playing with a couple of wing mirrors there's no way he could have seen him.

[rossipersiempre]

Then why does he do it when the player on the ball can't possibly see him? I recall seeing him telling Andy Carroll to pass the ball out to Maxi on the wing towards the end of last season. It was the wrong pass of course and Carroll ignored him. But in a way he had no choice. Spearing was standing behind him at the time and unless Carroll was playing with a couple of wing mirrors there's no way he could have seen him.

Why? Because, my learned friend, the gesture was not meant for the eyes and attention of one Andrew Carroll, but for the observing Mr Kenneth Dalglish, Steven Clarke and the watching forty thousand Liverpool fans. Mr Spearing was simply trying to reinforce the failing perception that he knew what he was doing out there on the pitch.

[Wirral1]

If you stop constantly resorting to straw man arguments I'm sure people will stop pulling you up on it.

Simple really.

All arguments about whether a player is good enough are, by their nature, comparative arguments. If Jay Spearing was playing amongst a set of Sefton park Sunday league amateurs he would easily be the best player on the pitch. If you say Jay Spearing is not good enough for this squad, you are actually saying the other players are better. It is not, therefore, unreasonable to point out other players weaknesses in order to make the point that Spearing may not actually be a worse player than other players people seem to prefer.

The 'this is a strawman argument' is, itself, a strawman.

PS...I'm watching the Toronto game...there appear to be quite a lot of long passes......

[geoffstrong]

See, I still disagree Yorky, he doesn't have footballing Tourette's.

Same as that other symptom you've described, "the Statue", in my opinion he knows full well he's doing it and also why.

So is Jay this season Dirk for you two see I have noted neither you or yorky rate artisans however every team need the 100% workers to help out the hallowed artists in the team.

[geoffstrong]

If you stop constantly resorting to straw man arguments I'm sure people will stop pulling you up on it.

Simple really.

Ah but what do think about the actual topic or was that just your strawman reply?

[cezred]

All arguments about whether a player is good enough are, by their nature, comparative arguments. If Jay Spearing was playing amongst a set of Sefton park Sunday league amateurs he would easily be the best player on the pitch. If you say Jay Spearing is not good enough for this squad, you are actually saying the other players are better. It is not, therefore, unreasonable to point out other players weaknesses in order to make the point that Spearing may not actually be a worse player than other players people seem to prefer.

The 'this is a strawman argument' is, therefore, a strawman.


PS...I'm watching the Toronto game...there appear to be quite a lot of long passes......

That wasn't the argument put forward.

Rightly or wrongly a poster said that Jay's performance in two particular games were enough to show that Jay isn't good enough for us. Geoff rocked up and basically said that if this is the standard to which we're gonna hold Jay (judging him on the basis of two games) then the same standard should be applied to Stevie. Nobody had mentioned SG to that point. Geoff brought SG into the argument because he couldn't defend Jay's performance in those two games. SG has done more than enough in his 14 years as a professional with us to have proven his worth to the club while Jay has yet to do the same. To judge Stevie in the same way would be ridiculous and Geoff knows it.

Straw man argument, reductio ad absurdum...it was a bullshit argument whichever way you look at it.

Ah but what do think about the actual topic or was that just your strawman reply?

I'm fairly certain, judging by that comment, that you don't understand what a straw man argument is.

[Pistolero]

fuck me...its going to be a long season

[Phil M]

fuck me...its going to be a long season day

[macca888]

fuck me...its going to be a long season

Why's that, have the Yank overlords managed to get that 39th game added? The money grubbing twats!

[Wirral1]

That wasn't the argument put forward.

Rightly or wrongly a poster said that Jay's performance in two particular games were enough to show that Jay isn't good enough for us. Geoff rocked up and basically said that if this is the standard to which we're gonna hold Jay (judging him on the basis of two games) then the same standard should be applied to Stevie. Nobody had mentioned SG to that point. Geoff brought SG into the argument because he couldn't defend Jay's performance in those two games. SG has done more than enough in his 14 years as a proffessional with us to have proven his worth to the club while Jay has yet to do the same. To judge Stevie in the same way would be ridiculous and Geoff knows it.

Straw man argument, reducto ad absurdum...it was a bullshit argument whichever way you look at it.

I'm fairly certain, judging by that comment, that you don't understand what a straw man argument is.

Why is it ridiculous to judge Stevie the same way?...shouldn't all players be judged the same way?...or is it one rule of judgement for the 'superstars' and another for the also rans.

The strawman is, in a legal sense, a frontman. Being used as a cover for the real actioners of a deal or contract.

The strawman argument here is, in my opinion, a front-argument, hiding the real meaning of your discussion which is 'shut up because we know better', which you can't actually write as it is no argument at all.

[geoffstrong]

That wasn't the argument put forward.

Rightly or wrongly a poster said that Jay's performance in two particular games were enough to show that Jay isn't good enough for us. Geoff rocked up and basically said that if this is the standard to which we're gonna hold Jay (judging him on the basis of two games) then the same standard should be applied to Stevie. Nobody had mentioned SG to that point. Geoff brought SG into the argument because he couldn't defend Jay's performance in those two games. SG has done more than enough in his 14 years as a professional with us to have proven his worth to the club while Jay has yet to do the same. To judge Stevie in the same way would be ridiculous and Geoff knows it.

Straw man argument, reductio ad absurdum...it was a bullshit argument whichever way you look at it.

I'm fairly certain, judging by that comment, that you don't understand what a straw man argument is.

You are full of it , I brought up Stevie because actually he was as bad if not worse than Jay had no positional sense or actually stuck to his job which guess what put pressure on his midfield partners each with far less experience than him!
However we have a pecking list in here, people you can slate, Adam, Jay, Andy, Downing, people who can never be slated at all., stevie, Suarez!
Happy now.

[cezred]

Why is it ridiculous to judge Stevie the same way?...shouldn't all players be judged the same way?...or is it one rule of judgement for the 'superstars' and another for the also rans.

The strawman is, in a legal sense, a frontman. Being used as a cover for the real actioners of a deal or contract.

The strawman argument here is, in my opinion, a front-argument, hiding the real meaning of your discussion which is 'shut up because we know better', which you can't actually write as it is no argument at all.

I'm not a lawyer. I understand the whole straw man thing as a 'logical fallacy'.


Taken from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person A has position X.

Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]

4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

Person B then attacks position Y, concluding that position X is false/incorrect/flawed.


This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

If you can't see that Geoff's method of arguing his points fit the above description then there really isn't any point us continuing this discussion.

[yorkykopite]

So is Jay this season Dirk for you two see I have noted neither you or yorky rate artisans however every team need the 100% workers to help out the hallowed artists in the team.

No, pay attention. I didn't like Spearing last season either.

'Artisans' is a noble word and it's a shame you misuse it. I could refer to William Morris here who said that genuine 'artists' sweat as much as 'artisans' and 'artisans' possess as much craft as 'artists', but I won't. Sadly, Jay Kuyt and Dirk Spearing are the type of unskilled worker who never thought it worth while taking an apprenticeship or going to night school and learning some technique. 

Great for Luton Town but not right for Liverpool.

[Grobbelrevell]

This is the saving grace - he isn't telegraphing to the opposition because his team mates tend to ignore him.

Indeed. So in some ways you could say he is actually adding to the disguise. Whether he is intending to do so is doubtful, mind you.

It's his slowing of the tempo that bothers me more.

See, that's something I don't see. Generally speaking Jay tends to try to keep the ball moving at a decent tempo as far as i'm concerned. One and two touch passing. Get it, give it. Now, that's not always the case of course (as Rodgers' "keep the ball, lad" comment on Saturday indicated) and he's far from perfect, but as a general style, I don't see a dawdler in Jay.

[Vidocq]

bunch of wannabe managers

[yorkykopite]

bunch of wannabe managers

Ha, Lucas Leiva's best friend.

You still think he's shit mate?

[Vidocq]

Ha, Lucas Leiva's best friend.

You still think he's shit mate?

nope

[geoffstrong]

No, pay attention. I didn't like Spearing last season either.

'Artisans' is a noble word and it's a shame you misuse it. I could refer to William Morris here who said that genuine 'artists' sweat as much as 'artisans' and 'artisans' possess as much craft as 'artists', but I won't. Sadly, Jay Kuyt and Dirk Spearing are the type of unskilled worker who never thought it worth while taking an apprenticeship or going to night school and learning some technique. 

Great for Luton Town but not right for Liverpool.

While you mention Dirk one player we will miss as for apprenticeship always thought Dutch academies were good myself, the point is you like fancy dans , I like the lads who do the work but seldom get the glory but in the end every team needs a blend of both.
Jay will be in the squad this season and will do well if called upon, that's all there is to it for me, he won't be first choice, but we need guys like him at the club.