Topic: Jay Spearing- Better Late than Never

[yorkykopite]

I think, by the way, that to have that gift of anticipation you have to be a creative player yourself (which explains Spearing's problem). You have to be able to think like the fellow playing the incisive pass.

[kopite.keith]

I felt most of Spearing's shortcomings were perfectly highlighted with the second goal against the mancs at OT. Many of the things we talked about are to be seen in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y79zrdyCaUA&feature=related

[SuperMilan]

He is not good enough for L.F.C. he mite be a local lad and good for him.
But he is just to ligteweight for the midfield.

[OLDIE]

I felt most of Spearing's shortcomings were perfectly highlighted with the second goal against the mancs at OT. Many of the things we talked about are to be seen in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y79zrdyCaUA&feature=related

We could all post you tube misplaced paces or fuck ups, not fair to merely highlight that matey

[Z e u s]

I felt most of Spearing's shortcomings were perfectly highlighted with the second goal against the mancs at OT. Many of the things we talked about are to be seen in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y79zrdyCaUA&feature=related

The one mistake he has made in 14 months.

But everyone seems to forget that!

[OLDIE]

The one mistake he has made in 14 months.

But everyone seems to forget that!

Not sure about that, got turned a bit easy once or twice

[Rohit]

Yes, Lucas has that precious ability to see that an opponent is going to receive the ball before the opponent himself has cottoned on.

How many times have we seen this? The instant robbery of the ball from a receiver's foot. The poor fella has no idea what's coming behind him because he's only just realised a pass is coming. He's in absolutely no shape to withstand a challenge. In these circumstances the slim Lucas appears overbearingly muscular simply because he has the gift of anticipation.

And we ask ourselves. What would he be like alongside someone nearing the quality of Alonso? Bloody irresistible I think.

I'm sure we're out looking for that player right now (you have to hope).

We are looking for that sort of player if stephenmartin is to be trusted. The likes of ever banega, moutinho,  m'vila and martinez. Hows that sound? 

[yorkykopite]

We are looking for that sort of player if stephenmartin is to be trusted. The likes of ever banega, moutinho,  m'vila and martinez. Hows that sound? 

I like the sound of Martinez and Banega (I haven't seen quite enough of the other two). But do they like the sound of us?

Jeez, course they do, we're Liverpool and we play in all Red front of the Kop  .

[rafathegaffa83]

I think, by the way, that to have that gift of anticipation you have to be a creative player yourself (which explains Spearing's problem). You have to be able to think like the fellow playing the incisive pass.

Definitely. You only need to look at the amount of interceptions per game he has or doesn't have. I compiled a list of players in the PL in the holding position and I think only Diame at Wigan had fewer interceptions per game this season than Spearing.

[Juan Loco]

I like the sound of Martinez and Banega (I haven't seen quite enough of the other two). But do they like the sound of us?

Gotta say, much as I love an elegant nutjob, I'm not sure Banega is a better player than Gago. He just happens to have found a nicer size pond to have a swim around in.

If we're going to "Learn from Newcastle" (no fucking way am I typing that without the bunny ears) then we'll pick up Marvin Martin from Sochaux before the Euros come around. French international, drawing comparison with Xavi last year and I think he broke the ligue un assist record doing it. Sochaux look like they're going down, someone will be in for him. If we're going to try and go for underwhelming, leftfield signings with the potential to be top draw then he should be up there.

Think if we could get him then Moutinho's the one. (Not even going to think about Martinez I think that's Real/Barca territory now).

[jckliew]

Hes a good understudy to Lucas...........

[kopitecrash]

Hes a good understudy to Lucas...........

No he's not. We need a better back up defensive mid. But I do think he's a good all round central mid to have next to Lucas.

[leiva-pool]

Gotta say, much as I love an elegant nutjob, I'm not sure Banega is a better player than Gago. He just happens to have found a nicer size pond to have a swim around in.

If we're going to "Learn from Newcastle" (no fucking way am I typing that without the bunny ears) then we'll pick up Marvin Martin from Sochaux before the Euros come around. French international, drawing comparison with Xavi last year and I think he broke the ligue un assist record doing it. Sochaux look like they're going down, someone will be in for him. If we're going to try and go for underwhelming, leftfield signings with the potential to be top draw then he should be up there.

Think if we could get him then Moutinho's the one. (Not even going to think about Martinez I think that's Real/Barca territory now).

Personally, I would put an offer in for De Jong. He's not a regular starter anymore so he might be tempted for newer surroundings. Personally, I think we need more muscle in central midfield. The absence of Lucas has pretty much highlighted how weak our midfield is and if we are to sign players, I would want it to be someone who can dominate a midfield.

[Believe]

Personally, I would put an offer in for De Jong. He's not a regular starter anymore so he might be tempted for newer surroundings. Personally, I think we need more muscle in central midfield. The absence of Lucas has pretty much highlighted how weak our midfield is and if we are to sign players, I would want it to be someone who can dominate a midfield.

Was amazed we didn't make a loan / cheap signing approach to an experienced pro like De Jong in January. Look at Pizarro at Man City, has been class for them.

[Discipline]

Hes a good understudy to Lucas...........

He's a decent player playing with Lucas.
He's not even 1/3rd replacing Lucas.

[Cpt_Reina]

The trouble with buying a back up to Lucas who's as good as him (or nearly as good) is what the hell you do with them when Lucas is fit.

Lucas is the best DM in the league, trying not to be biased but he's probably in the top 4 or 5 in the world. Nobody we can buy will be able to displace him, and that means that unless we start with 2 DMs a la Lucas and Mascherano (which we haven't looked like doing) the other player will be finding himself sat on the bench a fair amount.

Now which top class player will be looking to move to Liverpool to sit on the bench?

It was the same issue we had in finding a good back up to Torres. Nobody was going to get in ahead of him, and good players dont want to sit on the bench for 70% of the season. Its a hard sell.

[leivapool]

The trouble with buying a back up to Lucas who's as good as him (or nearly as good) is what the hell you do with them when Lucas is fit.

Lucas is the best DM in the league, trying not to be biased but he's probably in the top 4 or 5 in the world. Nobody we can buy will be able to displace him, and that means that unless we start with 2 DMs a la Lucas and Mascherano (which we haven't looked like doing) the other player will be finding himself sat on the bench a fair amount.

Now which top class player will be looking to move to Liverpool to sit on the bench?

It was the same issue we had in finding a good back up to Torres. Nobody was going to get in ahead of him, and good players dont want to sit on the bench for 70% of the season. Its a hard sell.

There must be a player out there who is good enough to be genuine quality cover for Lucas, but could also play alongside him or in other midfield positions.  A versatile midfielder......Meireles was pretty good at this, although Dalglish never fancied him, he was very versatile.  We need another player like Raul, versatile, able to cover DM, CM, CAM, hell ever LM and RM.  Over a season this would give this player many games, especially as we have Europe next season and Lucas certainly won't be able to play as many games as in previous seasons. 

Jay can do the DM/CM bit , but not at a consistantly high enough level to be genuine quality cover for Lucas.

[Drinks Sangria]

Gotta say, much as I love an elegant nutjob, I'm not sure Banega is a better player than Gago. He just happens to have found a nicer size pond to have a swim around in.

If we're going to "Learn from Newcastle" (no fucking way am I typing that without the bunny ears) then we'll pick up Marvin Martin from Sochaux before the Euros come around. French international, drawing comparison with Xavi last year and I think he broke the ligue un assist record doing it. Sochaux look like they're going down, someone will be in for him. If we're going to try and go for underwhelming, leftfield signings with the potential to be top draw then he should be up there.

Think if we could get him then Moutinho's the one. (Not even going to think about Martinez I think that's Real/Barca territory now).

Agree completely. Both superb footballer's who would very much improve our side. The comparison to Xavi is rather kind (I know, not your own words) but could be apt in the future. Martin is a superb player, as is Moutinho, who I can't believe is still in Portugal. Behind Martinez, he'd be my choice for midfield. On the topic of Spearing, I like him but he's extremely limited. I know he's young but I think he's playing at his peak in some ways. Conversely, it could be said that he'll learn with age given the nature of his position. I'm not ready to write him off yet and I think he's a useful squad player to have around.

[Cpt_Reina]

There must be a player out there who is good enough to be genuine quality cover for Lucas, but could also play alongside him or in other midfield positions.  A versatile midfielder......Meireles was pretty good at this, although Dalglish never fancied him, he was very versatile.  We need another player like Raul, versatile, able to cover DM, CM, CAM, hell ever LM and RM.

Meireles is no DM.

to be honest that player you're thinking of probably IS Lucas.

The problem there is it moves him out of the position in which he's genuinely world class. Personally I wouldnt shift Lucas about at all, because he's just that good where he is already.

There's a real possibility of upsetting the applecart if we start moving Lucas around.

But then that player that can play AM, CM and DM is very rare and very expensive. So it could be worth taking the risk on removing Lucas from his DM berth.

Just comes down to weather you'd stick or twist. Personally id stick, Lucas is too classy there and spent so long working to become that good in that role, to be interrupting his progress and reverting him back in to a different type of midfielder wouldnt be a risk worth taking imo.

[Roger Federer]

There must be a player out there who is good enough to be genuine quality cover for Lucas, but could also play alongside him or in other midfield positions.  A versatile midfielder......Meireles was pretty good at this, although Dalglish never fancied him, he was very versatile.  We need another player like Raul, versatile, able to cover DM, CM, CAM, hell ever LM and RM.  Over a season this would give this player many games, especially as we have Europe next season and Lucas certainly won't be able to play as many games as in previous seasons. 

Jay can do the DM/CM bit , but not at a consistantly high enough level to be genuine quality cover for Lucas.

I agree we need cover for Lucas, we have for a long time. And ideally someone who is as good in his position, as the 'box-to-box' role beside him. But, I sure hope we don't look for another Meireles. He couldn't do that job (and he wasn't anything special in any other position either by the way).

Meireles never played as a defensive midfielder for us. 2-3 times ahead of Lucas in a midfield two, but never as the holding player. As far as I know he didn't play there for Porto either. I've seen him as the holding player for Chelsea though, but he isn't very good at it, to say the least. Just like with all the other midfielders we have, he must play alongside a player like Lucas to be at his best.

[JP-65]

Think we need to look for either (a) a young player with potential, so happy to be an understudy, learning etc or (b) a versatile player, can do the job, but when not required for it, can play another role

[kopitecrash]

Think we need to look for either (a) a young player with potential, so happy to be an understudy, learning etc or (b) a versatile player, can do the job, but when not required for it, can play another role

Then you need someone who is mentally and physically strong. Spearing's a good player - but his physical attributes undermine him when errors creep in - see the goal versus Man U. Someone, I dare say, like Duncan Fletcher.

[Hazell]

Then you need someone who is mentally and physically strong. Spearing's a good player - but his physical attributes undermine him when errors creep in - see the goal versus Man U. Someone, I dare say, like Duncan Fletcher.

He's like 60 years old isn't he and managing India. I prefer Spearing to him.

[leivapool]

Meireles is no DM.

to be honest that player you're thinking of probably IS Lucas.

The problem there is it moves him out of the position in which he's genuinely world class. Personally I wouldnt shift Lucas about at all, because he's just that good where he is already.

There's a real possibility of upsetting the applecart if we start moving Lucas around.

But then that player that can play AM, CM and DM is very rare and very expensive. So it could be worth taking the risk on removing Lucas from his DM berth.

Just comes down to weather you'd stick or twist. Personally id stick, Lucas is too classy there and spent so long working to become that good in that role, to be interrupting his progress and reverting him back in to a different type of midfielder wouldnt be a risk worth taking imo.

I didn't literally mean Meireles, I was referring more to his versatility.  I agree that we should keep Lucas where he is, but it would be nice if we could utilise the  attacking instincts he came to us with, perhaps by keeping Lucas as the DM but by pairing him with a player who could cover for Lucas in his absence but also play alongside him.  A player with defensive nous, so that if Lucas attcked the other held and vice versa.  A quality player who could cover Lucas AND play alongside him would add much more flexibility to our team.  Henderson may yet grow to be that player, but he isn't at the moment, and although Spearing is workmanlike he misses the top quality required to cover Lucas on his own.  Like I said, there must be a player out there that can do this surely?

[Cpt_Reina]

I didn't literally mean Meireles, I was referring more to his versatility.  I agree that we should keep Lucas where he is, but it would be nice if we could utilise the  attacking instincts he came to us with, perhaps by keeping Lucas as the DM but by pairing him with a player who could cover for Lucas in his absence but also play alongside him.  A player with defensive nous, so that if Lucas attcked the other held and vice versa.  A quality player who could cover Lucas AND play alongside him would add much more flexibility to our team.  Henderson may yet grow to be that player, but he isn't at the moment, and although Spearing is workmanlike he misses the top quality required to cover Lucas on his own.  Like I said, there must be a player out there that can do this surely?

There's a few out there, but they're very expensive and if we're being honest, beyond us as a club right now.

Thats why I bring up that Lucas himself probably is one of those players.

But, id be reluctant to remove him from DM. Because it means there's no Lucas in DM.

[leiva-pool]

The trouble with buying a back up to Lucas who's as good as him (or nearly as good) is what the hell you do with them when Lucas is fit.

Lucas is the best DM in the league, trying not to be biased but he's probably in the top 4 or 5 in the world. Nobody we can buy will be able to displace him, and that means that unless we start with 2 DMs a la Lucas and Mascherano (which we haven't looked like doing) the other player will be finding himself sat on the bench a fair amount.

Now which top class player will be looking to move to Liverpool to sit on the bench?

It was the same issue we had in finding a good back up to Torres. Nobody was going to get in ahead of him, and good players dont want to sit on the bench for 70% of the season. Its a hard sell.

I think too many Liverpool fans think back to the Mascherano/Lucas partnership when making opinions about this subject. Lucas was a decent player back then, but he's improved so much now and is ten times the player. I actually think he'll flourish in a proper central midfield role as he's so intelligent that he'll be able to adapt and tweak his game where necessary. If you have another attacking midfielder ahead of them, ala Gerrard or Henderson, it'll give us an extremely strong base from which to start from. I think our problem at the moment is that we're physically weak in central midfield and at the moment the opposition are bullying us. Unfortunately, we don't have the philosophy that Barcelona have so we cannot overcome this by just passing our way through it. We need players that can stand up, dominate and take control.

[JP-65]

Then you need someone who is mentally and physically strong. Spearing's a good player - but his physical attributes undermine him when errors creep in - see the goal versus Man U. Someone, I dare say, like Duncan Fletcher.

I never saw Spearing as a DM, doesn't have enough mobility, and has never tackled much (he gets in the way, tries to force the other player to move the ball on), so it hasn't surprised me that he's struggled in this role.  It's tough on him as that's not what he's best at, but I guess from his perspective, it's giving him minutes.

[Sangria]

Then you need someone who is mentally and physically strong. Spearing's a good player - but his physical attributes undermine him when errors creep in - see the goal versus Man U. Someone, I dare say, like Duncan Fletcher.

He's like 60 years old isn't he and managing India. I prefer Spearing to him.

He'd team up well with Marangon Dhoni though. If we do go for Duncan Fletcher, we'd do well to sign Michael Vaughan, who covered so well for Charlie Adam when they played together at Blackpool.

[Cpt_Reina]

I think too many Liverpool fans think back to the Mascherano/Lucas partnership when making opinions about this subject. Lucas was a decent player back then, but he's improved so much now and is ten times the player. I actually think he'll flourish in a proper central midfield role as he's so intelligent that he'll be able to adapt and tweak his game where necessary. If you have another attacking midfielder ahead of them, ala Gerrard or Henderson, it'll give us an extremely strong base from which to start from. I think our problem at the moment is that we're physically weak in central midfield and at the moment the opposition are bullying us. Unfortunately, we don't have the philosophy that Barcelona have so we cannot overcome this by just passing our way through it. We need players that can stand up, dominate and take control.

Lucas is much better now, but he's much better at being a DM.

Is he any better at being a CM? We honestly dont know, because he hasnt had that responsibility for a long time.

[leivapool]

Lucas is much better now, but he's much better at being a DM.

Is he any better at being a CM? We honestly dont know, because he hasnt had that responsibility for a long time.

I think he played as the CM alongside Poulsen!  last season.  I 'think' the plan was for Lucas to be the more attacking of the two.  I'm pretty sure it ended up with Lucas doing most of the work regardless of what Poulsen's alledged role in the team was.  I'm pretty sure that it was Poulsen's abject performances that gave Spearing his chance last season alongside Lucas.  But yes, you are right, it's been a while since we saw Lucas play alongside  a competant DM, and we certainly haven't seen it in the last 2 seasons.

[Sangria]

I think he played as the CM alongside Poulsen!  last season.  I 'think' the plan was for Lucas to be the more attacking of the two.  I'm pretty sure it ended up with Lucas doing most of the work regardless of what Poulsen's alledged role in the team was.  I'm pretty sure that it was Poulsen's abject performances that gave Spearing his chance last season alongside Lucas.  But yes, you are right, it's been a while since we saw Lucas play alongside  a competant DM, and we certainly haven't seen it in the last 2 seasons.

As suggested earlier, Duncan Fletcher and Michael Vaughan as back up DMs, with Dhoni keeping.

[kopite.keith]

We could all post you tube misplaced paces or fuck ups, not fair to merely highlight that matey

Of course we could post fuck ups of any player, I agree. My point was that in this particular instant you see a lot of the weaknesses in Spearing's game, things that occur over and over again even if they don't lead to us conceding a goal. I wouldn't condone a witch hunt but I'm happy to discuss his shortcomings.

[leivapool]

As suggested earlier, Duncan Fletcher and Michael Vaughan as back up DMs, with Dhoni keeping.

Is Duncan Fletcher better than Darren Fletcher and Duncan Ferguson?  Or should we stick with Duncan Fletcher?

[hesbighesred]

The trouble with buying a back up to Lucas who's as good as him (or nearly as good) is what the hell you do with them when Lucas is fit.

Lucas next to a De Jong (who is a decent footballer himself) would absolutely piss on every midfield we've fielded this season (indeed the two of them together would piss on any midfield 3 we've played this season) both creatively and defensively. Yes, I did just say that Lucas as the more attacking of a CM two is more 'creative' than Gerrard - in that you'd get a steady supply of useful possession to the front players without sacrificing any solidity, where with Gerrard you get occasional attacking brilliance with a steady loss of possession and next to no defensive solidity whatsoever. Even then, his good attacking play tends to come from the AM/RW areas that, as a CM (especially in a 2) he really can't afford to be (but does anyway) spending lots of time in.

[hesbighesred]

I think too many Liverpool fans think back to the Mascherano/Lucas partnership when making opinions about this subject. Lucas was a decent player back then, but he's improved so much now and is ten times the player. I actually think he'll flourish in a proper central midfield role as he's so intelligent that he'll be able to adapt and tweak his game where necessary. If you have another attacking midfielder ahead of them, ala Gerrard or Henderson, it'll give us an extremely strong base from which to start from. I think our problem at the moment is that we're physically weak in central midfield and at the moment the opposition are bullying us. Unfortunately, we don't have the philosophy that Barcelona have so we cannot overcome this by just passing our way through it. We need players that can stand up, dominate and take control.

Too many fans still think Mash/Lucas was shit or uncreative because they compare it to Mash/Alonso and also wilfully ignore just how shit Gerrard was in 09/10 - they talk up Alonso's brilliance but totally ignore any role Gerrard had in that or the subsequent 3, it's like it was all Alonso all along and Gerrard hit a random good season that just happened to benefit from it.

Fact was that Mash/Lucas was a fantastic CM that pisses over pretty much anything else this league has to offer, and indeed was incredibly strong then even though Mash was an appalling partner for Lucas (in that he pretty much didn't pass to him, ever), a partnership that still dominated most of the opposition we played, that still (whatever the revisionists and the deluded may say) made more than enough chances to win most games we played, and in front of which both Gerrard and Torres were having problem seasons - the one somewhat unfit and just absolutely wank, really poor form, the other still putting them away but often injured, sulky when not injured, and with both playing selfishly and neither showing any real leadership or team effort.

I'd swap Gerrard, Adam, Henderson AND Spearing for Mash, right now, and think we'd gotten nice deal out of it.

[Cpt_Reina]

Lucas next to a De Jong (who is a decent footballer himself) would absolutely piss on every midfield we've fielded this season (indeed the two of them together would piss on any midfield 3 we've played this season) both creatively and defensively. Yes, I did just say that Lucas as the more attacking of a CM two is more 'creative' than Gerrard - in that you'd get a steady supply of useful possession to the front players without sacrificing any solidity, where with Gerrard you get occasional attacking brilliance with a steady loss of possession and next to no defensive solidity whatsoever. Even then, his good attacking play tends to come from the AM/RW areas that, as a CM (especially in a 2) he really can't afford to be (but does anyway) spending lots of time in.

Lucas is a much much better DM then De Jong though. Cutting your nose off to spite your face springs to mind.

As for the steady supply if useful possession as well as intelligent passing and being able to get up and down the pitch. We already have a young player who's very good at all of those things.

Henderson can fill that role perfectly well. And it also keeps Lucas in his DM niche.

Trouble is that Henderson seems to be behind not only Jay for that role but also behind Adam and Gerrard. Too many cooks spoil the broth and I dont think we should be putting more bodies in the way of a player we paid £16m for last summer. He's no great shakes on the right, and hasnt been all season. Surely it makes sense to give him a shot at that role in the middle now?

[Hazell]

Good posts mate. Remember having conversations about the Mascherano-Lucas axis and how it's something I'd have liked to see continue in the middle of the park.

[hesbighesred]

Henderson can fill that role perfectly well. And it also keeps Lucas in his DM niche.

...and then when Lucas inevitably gets injured again because we insist on playing him in practically every single game for 90mins because we haven't invested in anyone who we trust to cover for him?

The point isn't buying a better DM in order to 'replace' Lucas - there isn't a better DM than Lucas. There's some that are better at the 'D' bit but none who can match his 'D' who are even fit to lick his boots when it comes to the 'M' part of the job. No. The point is to give much needed cover so that we can keep Lucas fit, to provide much needed competition to avoid complacency, and to provide much needed options so that we can, if we choose to, play two DMs in certain matches.

It's even more vital now because Lucas will need time to get back to what he was, if he can. If we use him like we have Gerrard this season - a couple of weeks warming up then back in for 90mins every week to be the lynchpin we're trying to build the team around - then all we'll achieve is Lucas getting injured again.

[Camarero25]

Don't like De Jong myself, as I think he's very limited on the ball. As Cpt_Reina says, I'd keep Lucas in his DM position and buy a slightly more progressive partner. A Moutinho type player would be perfect, I reckon.

[Camarero25]

As for cover, I'd go for an experienced pro who won't mind playing a squad role. Someone like Keita from Barca perhaps (though he might not want to come).