Author Topic: Protests in the middle east thread (Read 208528 times)

Brentie · « **Reply #120 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:57:54 PM »

Quote from: Tepid water on February 21, 2011, 09:52:54 PM

Can't be long until something happens in Iran surely?

I think Saudi could be worrying though, they have a very militant fringe there, with the wealth there a revolution could launch a world wide crisis.

Cant see Iran at all. Like it or not, there's a clear split in the country. A huge number of people vote for Ahmedinijad, no matter what the Western Media would like to think.

There could be some reform, but I seriously doubt that Khameini and Ahmedi will be toppled.

And the US will send their entire fucken military to defend the Saudis if there's even a hint of a protest there.

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #121 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:00:58 PM »

11:00pm: Libyan state TV says "security forces have begun an extensive operation against dens of vandals".

10:59pm: Libyan city of Misratah, east of Tripoli, is latest to be attacked by airstrikes. Heavy artillery fire devastates buildings as tanks roll into the city, witnesses tell Al Jazeera.

Mayhem....

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #122 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:01:52 PM »

Quote from: Brentie on February 21, 2011, 09:57:54 PM

Cant see Iran at all. Like it or not, there's a clear split in the country. A huge number of people vote for Ahmedinijad, no matter what the Western Media would like to think.

There could be some reform, but I seriously doubt that Khameini and Ahmedi will be toppled.

And the US will send their entire fucken military to defend the Saudis if there's even a hint of a protest there.

I don't agree with Galloway on too much, but we both share a vision of the Sauds hanging from lampposts Mussolini style.

Tepid water · « **Reply #123 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Brentie on February 21, 2011, 09:57:54 PM

Cant see Iran at all. Like it or not, there's a clear split in the country. A huge number of people vote for Ahmedinijad, no matter what the Western Media would like to think.

There could be some reform, but I seriously doubt that Khameini and Ahmedi will be toppled.

And the US will send their entire fucken military to defend the Saudis if there's even a hint of a protest there.

There already has been a massive uprising in Iran though so...maybe.

You are right about Saudi of course, but maybe the US going in would be even worse than a revolution?

El Campeador · « **Reply #124 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:02:21 PM »

Airstrikes, Ghaddafi, you fucking butchering c*nt.

They gonna drag this piece of shit through the streets.

No Way José · « **Reply #125 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:03:20 PM »

Iran is different as it's not an Arab country with traditional tribal loyalties. Also has a very efficient secret police and counter revolutionary organisation.
Not sure about Saudi, again strong secret police and a lot of the middle class are hugely wealthy so have vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #126 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:04:50 PM »

Quote from: El Campeador on February 21, 2011, 10:02:21 PM

Airstrikes, Ghaddafi, you fucking butchering c*nt.

They gonna drag this piece of shit through the streets.

What do you think El C.?

American involvement with a no-fly zone? I guess it has to be done soon to make a difference. The U.S. have two carrier strike groups within striking distance according to reports.

Could save lives, but perhaps help crazy Qadaffi reclaim the "moral high ground" - fighting the yanks..

Thoughts?

El Campeador · « **Reply #127 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:07:06 PM »

Quote from: Need_a_bevvy on February 21, 2011, 10:04:50 PM

What do you think El C.?

American involvement with a no-fly zone? I guess it has to be done soon to make a difference. The U.S. have two carrier strike groups within striking distance according to reports.

Could save lives, but perhaps help crazy Qadaffi reclaim the "moral high ground" - fighting the yanks..

Thoughts?

The Colonel won't make it to the weekend. His airforce should completely defect by the morning.

No Way José · « **Reply #128 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:07:41 PM »

Quote from: Need_a_bevvy on February 21, 2011, 10:04:50 PM

What do you think El C.?

American involvement with a no-fly zone? I guess it has to be done soon to make a difference. The U.S. have two carrier strike groups within striking distance according to reports.

Could save lives, but perhaps help crazy Qadaffi reclaim the "moral high ground" - fighting the yanks..

Thoughts?

Judging by Obamas rather lacklustre response to the crises, can't imagine the US rocking up anytime soon

Tepid water · « **Reply #129 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:08:14 PM »

Quote from: Need_a_bevvy on February 21, 2011, 10:04:50 PM

What do you think El C.?

American involvement with a no-fly zone? I guess it has to be done soon to make a difference. The U.S. have two carrier strike groups within striking distance according to reports.

Could save lives, but perhaps help crazy Qadaffi reclaim the "moral high ground" - fighting the yanks..

Thoughts?

The us always have a carrier group in the med I believe as it's very easy to get to the gulf.

Can't help but think the Lybian people need to fight their own battles though.

The US need to keep out of this sort of thing for the futures sake.

jambutty · « **Reply #130 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:11:37 PM »

Any side the Yanks take would be detrimental.

Imo, Obama must maintain laissez faire and allow the popular movements to determine their destiny.

Overall, I think we're seeing a huge spectrum of moderate Muslims demanding democracy. That can only be a good thing. Bad for the US & Israel in the short term, maybe.

No Way José · « **Reply #131 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:12:13 PM »

Quote from: El Campeador on February 21, 2011, 10:02:21 PM

Airstrikes, Ghaddafi, you fucking butchering c*nt.

They gonna drag this piece of shit through the streets.

Makes you proud doesn't it.

SMD · « **Reply #132 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:12:14 PM »

Can't wait for the US and Israel to introduce democracy after us

El Campeador · « **Reply #133 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:13:23 PM »

Quote from: jambutty on February 21, 2011, 10:11:37 PM

Any side the Yanks take would be detrimental.

Imo, Obama must maintain laissez faire and allow the popular movements to determine their destiny.

Overall, I think we're seeing a huge spectrum of moderate Muslims demanding democracy. That can only be a good thing. Bad for the US & Israel in the short term, maybe.

This.

No Way José · « **Reply #134 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:13:40 PM »

Quote from: jambutty on February 21, 2011, 10:11:37 PM

Any side the Yanks take would be detrimental.

Imo, Obama must maintain laissez faire and allow the popular movements to determine their destiny.

Overall, I think we're seeing a huge spectrum of moderate Muslims demanding democracy. That can only be a good thing. Bad for the US & Israel in the short term, maybe.

Why would moderate democratic Islamic states in the Middle East be bad for either Israel or the US ?

El Campeador · « **Reply #135 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:14:10 PM »

Quote from: No Way José on February 21, 2011, 10:13:40 PM

Why would moderate democratic Islamic states in the Middle East be bad for either Israel or the US ?

Because it won't be so easy to pull off an Oslo?

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #136 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:14:54 PM »

Quote from: Tepid water on February 21, 2011, 10:08:14 PM

The us always have a carrier group in the med I believe as it's very easy to get to the gulf.

Can't help but think the Lybian people need to fight their own battles though.

The US need to keep out of this sort of thing for the futures sake.

I think I agree...

Winning the battle against the tyrant without any western involvement would be better for all parties.

Any American involvement would just muddle the waters...

Though it's hard to watch and hear about all the carnage. My gosh some of the pictures you see on the internet. That's war I guess. Odd when you get news through twitter users in Libya, rather than the main news channels you see things we are usually spared from watching.

No Way José · « **Reply #137 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:16:21 PM »

Quote from: El Campeador on February 21, 2011, 10:14:10 PM

Because it won't be so easy to pull off an Oslo?

But being surrounded by states that would like to see you wiped off the map is obviously much more enticing for Israel ?

Tepid water · « **Reply #138 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:16:47 PM »

Quote from: Need_a_bevvy on February 21, 2011, 10:14:54 PM

I think I agree...

Winning the battle against the tyrant without any western involvement would be better for all parties.

Any American involvement would just muddle the waters...

Though it's hard to watch and hear about all the carnage. My gosh some of the pictures you see on the internet. That's war I guess. Odd when you get news through twitter users in Libya, rather than the main news channels you see things we are usually spared from watching.

The trouble is though, if they don't step inn there is a good chance they will be hated for letting it happen and not stepping in.

It is difficult being a superpower, you can be wrong whatever you do.

Trada · « **Reply #139 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:17:16 PM »

There is some shocking videos going around showing what is going on.

jimmymaps james flavian
by IbraBob
RT @CNNLive: Libyan soldiers are burned alive after refusing to fire upon protesters. Warning, graphic video: http://on.cnn.com/gfsRIz
8 minutes ago

Alpherah · « **Reply #140 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:17:54 PM »

Quote from: Trada on February 21, 2011, 10:17:16 PM

There is some shocking videos going around showing what is going on.

PM a link?
Not sure i want to see it, but i cant grasp what exactly is going on at the moment .. information is so scarse.

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #141 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:18:24 PM »

Quote from: El Campeador on February 21, 2011, 10:14:10 PM

Because it won't be so easy to pull off an Oslo?

Stop ragging on our capital, darnit.

Oslo had popular support btw both in Israel and among the Palestinians.

Though as it happened, it seemed neither conflicting parties (the leadership) were entirely serious about the Oslo agreement. Arafat talked about it being a temporary hudna when he thought westerners were not listening, and Netanyahu and his likud buddies did everything to undermine it.

El Campeador · « **Reply #142 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:19:10 PM »

Quote from: No Way José on February 21, 2011, 10:16:21 PM

But being surrounded by states that would like to see you wiped off the map is obviously much more enticing for Israel ?

How about being surrounded by states full of folks like myself? I don't them wiped off the map, and neither do many of my brethren.

I do however have a serious fucking problem with folding every hand.

Trada · « **Reply #143 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:19:25 PM »

Quote from: Alpherah on February 21, 2011, 10:17:54 PM

PM a link?
Not sure i want to see it, but i cant grasp what exactly is going on at the moment .. information is so scarse.

Just put one up but it's not as graphic as one that was put up on twitter earlier.

Alpherah · « **Reply #144 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:20:34 PM »

Quote from: Trada on February 21, 2011, 10:19:25 PM

Just put one up but it's not as graphic as one that was put up on twitter earlier.

Christ :|
Love or hate (mostly hate ..) the tories, im bloody glad to be living here.

Kahuna{=}Berger · « **Reply #145 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:21:20 PM »

Quote from: jambutty on February 21, 2011, 10:11:37 PM

Any side the Yanks take would be detrimental.

Imo, Obama must maintain laissez faire and allow the popular movements to determine their destiny.

Overall, I think we're seeing a huge spectrum of moderate Muslims demanding democracy. That can only be a good thing. Bad for the US & Israel in the short term, maybe.

The way I see it too.

Kahuna{=}Berger · « **Reply #146 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:22:33 PM »

Quote from: Need_a_bevvy on February 21, 2011, 09:54:20 PM

No-fly zone imposed by who? Qadaffi?

Sorry, may have jumped the gun on that. Thought I'd heard it, but seems to be just being mooted at the moment.

Tepid water · « **Reply #147 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:22:41 PM »

Quote from: Trada on February 21, 2011, 10:17:16 PM

There is some shocking videos going around showing what is going on.

jimmymaps james flavian
by IbraBob
RT @CNNLive: Libyan soldiers are burned alive after refusing to fire upon protesters. Warning, graphic video: http://on.cnn.com/gfsRIz
8 minutes ago

Wow

Just awful

You do fear what might happen after Gaddafi though.

Could be carnage.

No Way José · « **Reply #148 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:23:32 PM »

Quote from: El Campeador on February 21, 2011, 10:19:10 PM

How about being surrounded by states full of folks like myself? I don't them wiped off the map, and neither do many of my brethren.

I do however have a serious fucking problem with folding every hand.

Look I've no axe to grind either way, there's plenty of fault on all sides - Israel, Palestinian leadership, Europe and the US.

I just think that IF and its a huge if at the moment, there is a mass outbreak of democracy in the region, then that surely will be a good thing for Arabs, Jews, Palestinians alike, no ?

SMD · « **Reply #149 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:23:57 PM »

Quote from: Tepid water on February 21, 2011, 10:22:41 PM

You do fear what might happen after Gaddafi though.

Could be carnage.

Doubt it, once he goes you'll see anyone associated with him kicked out or have the shit kicked out of them. Do not underestimate the depth of feeling against these dictators, these are not power struggles. This is about freedom.

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #150 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:24:05 PM »

Quote from: Tepid water on February 21, 2011, 10:16:47 PM

The trouble is though, if they don't step inn there is a good chance they will be hated for letting it happen and not stepping in.

It is difficult being a superpower, you can be wrong whatever you do.

Exactly. Good to see some balanced and nuanced viewpoints. Quite often the world is a bloody mess, and all courses of actions are cursed - or at least will see the world curse you.

Still - on balance - the safer bet would be to stay out of it, other than to give moral and principled support for democracy, secular human rights and an independent judiciary.

No Way José · « **Reply #151 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:28:29 PM »

Quote from: Need_a_bevvy on February 21, 2011, 10:24:05 PM

Exactly. Good to see some balanced and nuanced viewpoints. Quite often the world is a bloody mess, and all courses of actions are cursed - or at least will see the world curse you.

Still - on balance - the safer bet would be to stay out of it, other than to give moral and principled support for democracy, secular human rights and an independent judiciary.

I agree, however apart from possibly Romania and East Germany in 1989, can't think of many popular uprisings that have ended happily and East Germany was a unique case due to the re-unification issue.

yorkykopite · « **Reply #152 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:33:38 PM »

Quote from: Brentie on February 21, 2011, 09:46:00 PM

Cant say Ive heard too much about him, but from what I know he's often been very vocal for the need of democracy to arrive in the Arab world.

Qaradawi? Oh lordy.

El Campeador · « **Reply #153 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:36:22 PM »

Quote from: No Way José on February 21, 2011, 10:23:32 PM

Look I've no axe to grind either way, there's plenty of fault on all sides - Israel, Palestinian leadership, Europe and the US.

Fault aside, Israel has been able to roll over autocratic rulers to the detriment of Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians and Jordanians. A democratic Egypt is beholden to their voters who overwhelmingly, for example, are against the blockade of Gaza.

Do you think a democratic Palestine would have been satisfied with Arafat's delegations to the Madrid, Oslo and Wye summits? Arafat was Roy fucking Hodgson personified. He showed up without English or Hebrew speakers when negotiating with Americans and Israelis; he showed up without cartographers when fighting over land; and, most damning of all, he lost as Arafat when he had the chance to win like Mandela or Ghandi.

No, the Israelis resemble the chip leader at the table who've have just seen the drunken Sheikh replaced by someone they can't read. It was easy to roll over Egypt and Syria; they are, after all, teghoghists. Try pissing on a democracy, see how far that gets you.

Tepid water · « **Reply #154 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:36:52 PM »

Quote from: SMD on February 21, 2011, 10:23:57 PM

Doubt it, once he goes you'll see anyone associated with him kicked out or have the shit kicked out of them. Do not underestimate the depth of feeling against these dictators, these are not power struggles. This is about freedom.

Oh no, that wasn't really my point.

My point is that there will be a massive power vacuum and lots of homicidal maniacs in the army.

The army could take over or any number of nutters, or even lots of fragmented nutters.

Ray K · « **Reply #155 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:37:32 PM »

Guys, what's the best site to get news from? It all seems a bit patchy.

Secondly, my sister used to live in Tripoli a couple of years back. She was telling of one of the last times there was an attempt on Ghaddafi's life.
A group from a small town dressed themselves as garbage collectors and went to the Ghaddafi compound in a garbage truck. They got past the outer wall, and through the second checkpoint in the inner wall and were about to head towards the main buildings when they were confronted and shot dead.

Ghaddafi got the army to pay a visit to the village where the rebels came from. They told everyone to leave the village by nightfall. Then the army came and bulldozed every building in the village. And when they finished with the village, they dug up every tarmac road leading to where the village was. The village, and all traces of it, ceased to be.

He is unbelievably ruthless and will fight to the very end.

She is very concerned for friends of hers over there at the moment.

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #156 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:38:10 PM »

Quote from: No Way José on February 21, 2011, 10:28:29 PM

I agree, however apart from possibly Romania and East Germany in 1989, can't think of many popular uprisings that have ended happily and East Germany was a unique case due to the re-unification issue.

I think you are being a tad too pessimistic. I would say all of the Eastern European uprisings ended rather well, with Romania being the only case where it turned really ugly for awhile. Even today you have people like jobbik in the Hungarian parliament so it's not all rosy.

The American revolution also turned out alright (unless you ask Qaradawi. lol). India is doing well. Even France got themselves sorted (even though it took them awhile).

It's not going to be easy, but I do have faith in people.

But, as with France it might well (and probably will) turn worse, before it gets better - but, in the end I think it's the only possible path to take - the policy of "he might well be a sonofabitch but, he's our sonofabitch" was certainly not sustainable in a modern communication age neither morally nor as a course of realpolitik policy.

Need_a_bevvy · « **Reply #157 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:41:09 PM »

Quote from: Ray K on February 21, 2011, 10:37:32 PM

Guys, what's the best site to get news from? It all seems a bit patchy.

Secondly, my sister used to live in Tripoli a couple of years back. She was telling of one of the last times there was an attempt on Ghaddafi's life.
A group from a small town dressed themselves as garbage collectors and went to the Ghaddafi compound in a garbage truck. They got past the outer wall, and through the second checkpoint in the inner wall and were about to head towards the main buildings when they were confronted and shot dead.

Ghaddafi got the army to pay a visit to the village where the rebels came from. They told everyone to leave the village by nightfall. Then the army came and bulldozed every building in the village. And when they finished with the village, they dug up every tarmac road leading to where the village was. The village, and all traces of it, ceased to be.

He is unbelievably ruthless and will fight to the very end.

She is very concerned for friends of hers over there at the moment.

Garbage collectors in Libya? Some disguise lol.

It's a wonder they made it past the first patrol.

On edit:

As far as the fate of the village... Sounds a bit like what the Assad's did with Hama. It's how they have stayed in power for so long I guess.

It's something I guess some of the Egyptians and Tunisians have perhaps not quite appreciated. As bad as Mubarak was, he was a fairly mild autocrat compared to many of his Arab colleagues- as we are now seeing playing out.

No Way José · « **Reply #158 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:42:36 PM »

Quote from: El Campeador on February 21, 2011, 10:36:22 PM

Fault aside, Israel has been able to roll over autocratic rulers to the detriment of Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians and Jordanians. A democratic Egypt is beholden to their voters who overwhelmingly, for example, are against the blockade of Gaza.

Do you think a democratic Palestine would have been satisfied with Arafat's delegations to the Madrid, Oslo and Wye summits? Arafat was Roy fucking Hodgson personified. He showed up without English or Hebrew speakers when negotiating with Americans and Israelis; he showed up without cartographers when fighting over land; and, most damning of all, he lost as Arafat when he had the chance to win like Mandela or Ghandi.

No, the Israelis resemble the chip leader at the table who've have just seen the drunken Sheikh replaced by someone they can't read. It was easy to roll over Egypt and Syria; they are, after all, teghoghists. Try pissing on a democracy, see how far that gets you.

Which is to say that the Palestinians have been hugely let down by their leadership over the years, replicated by most other dictatorships all over the Middle East. I agree that a smarter Palestinian leadership would have played their hand a lot better. Maybe just maybe there would have been a proper negotiated two-state solution - supported by the vast majority of both Arabs and Israelis and saved years of bloodshed and misery.

yorkykopite · « **Reply #159 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:43:31 PM »

Quote from: Ray K on February 21, 2011, 10:37:32 PM

Guys, what's the best site to get news from? It all seems a bit patchy.

Secondly, my sister used to live in Tripoli a couple of years back. She was telling of one of the last times there was an attempt on Ghaddafi's life.
A group from a small town dressed themselves as garbage collectors and went to the Ghaddafi compound in a garbage truck. They got past the outer wall, and through the second checkpoint in the inner wall and were about to head towards the main buildings when they were confronted and shot dead.

Ghaddafi got the army to pay a visit to the village where the rebels came from. They told everyone to leave the village by nightfall. Then the army came and bulldozed every building in the village. And when they finished with the village, they dug up every tarmac road leading to where the village was. The village, and all traces of it, ceased to be.

He is unbelievably ruthless and will fight to the very end.

She is very concerned for friends of hers over there at the moment.

Gadaffi is on the Saddam Hussein level. For Libya's sake let's hope he lacks the internal backing that the Iraqi butcher had.