Topic: Andy Carroll: Look down on my works ye mighty & despair (no fools please)

[JackWard33]

Christ alive this is like two bald men fighting over a comb.

Sometimes you over pay as we did with Carroll sometimes you under pay as we
did with Enrique.

After the deals are done it just becomes a pointless talking
shop to discuss their price.
They don't run around with their price above their head and we don't lose points
if a high priced player under performs or win them if a low priced player over performs.

Whether it was a mistake to buy him or not its done and it was done 7 bloody months
ago

[bigbear]

unfortunately Carrolls lackluster performance today raised more questions than it answered...

Source: LFCnews.tv

It's bollocks that. A forward's pass completion will always be less than elsewhere on the pitch because they are playing in tighter areas and often gambling in possession.

Carroll did fine yesterday.

[Greyfox]

The money's been spent. That's it he is out of warranty now. AC is a good asset to have and will get better as teamlinks get better too. No worries for me

[subroc]

The problem with Carroll, is the style of football we play when he's in the team. I remember Kenny saying his signing wouldn't compromise our beliefs, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case... Compare that to the Fulham display when the fluidity and interchanging of movement was a joy to behold. It remains to be seen if we're able to play in that manner with Carroll in the side and indeed, if Carroll himself is able to operate in a fluid pass and move system.

[Cruiser]

Agree, he did fine. Nothing wrong with Carrolls performance. In fact he was constantly moving and looking for the ball. He just lacked the support in the 2nd half which raises the issue of a link player from the midfield, especially in Gerrards absense. We shouldn't always be looking to Suarez as the creative player as he will have his off days.

Once Carroll gets the ball he is an absolute beast.

[Breitner]

The problem with Carroll, is the style of football we play when he's in the team. I remember Kenny saying his signing wouldn't compromise our beliefs, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case. For such a student of the game it beggars belief how often Carragher looks for the long ball. I'm not sure if Kenny has had a word with him, but the regularity of his hoofs is getting beyond a joke now, it's such an ugly, one dimensional way of playing. Compare that to the Fulham display when the fluidity and interchanging of movement was a joy to behold. It remains to be seen if we're able to play in that manner with Carroll in the side and indeed, if Carroll himself is able to operate in a fluid pass and move system.

First half we were excellent, we moved the ball quickly and there was plenty of fluidity in our movement. It's a load of rubbish to say we can't play that way with him in the side

Really is whopper town on here since yesterday

[Carlito Roberto]

Once Carroll gets the ball he is an absolute beast.

Really? From a personal point of view I don't get that feeling of excitement I used to get when Torres received the ball, or that I get with Suarez on the ball now. With Carroll he'll hold it up well and lay it off as per his skill set - in terms of functionality he does what's asked of him, but I wouldn't say he's vastly talented on the ball.

[gazzathered]

unfortunately Carrolls lackluster performance today raised more questions than it answered...

Source: LFCnews.tv

I thought Carroll did o.k today, from where i was sitting it didnt look a foul, he worked hard and fought all day.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Think we should all give Carroll and Kenny more time myself.

We've added a lot of players and things have changed around.

I haven't ever pretended I'm Carroll's biggest fan, but surely we can be just a bit patient and see how things work out? Is that really too much to ask?

[Zizou]

So truthfully, he's a correct refereeing call away from escaping all this criticism, as his goal should've stood. Go back and watch players like Shearer, even in his prime he wasn't electric every time he touched the ball, but when teams played to his strengths he'd score goals by the shedload. Not saying Carroll is, or ever will be as good as Shearer, but he has the tools to score a ton of goals in this league.

[Hazell]

Carroll did fine yesterday.

Yep, didn't have much help in the second half but his overall game was good. Lest we forget, he should have had a goal too if it hadn't been for the officials - a chance which he finished off well.

[Wingman]

The problem with Carroll, is the style of football we play when he's in the team. I remember Kenny saying his signing wouldn't compromise our beliefs, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case. For such a student of the game it beggars belief how often Carragher looks for the long ball. I'm not sure if Kenny has had a word with him, but the regularity of his hoofs is getting beyond a joke now, it's such an ugly, one dimensional way of playing. Compare that to the Fulham display when the fluidity and interchanging of movement was a joy to behold. It remains to be seen if we're able to play in that manner with Carroll in the side and indeed, if Carroll himself is able to operate in a fluid pass and move system.

Simplistic, generalistic .... oh, and a load of bollocks. Because I'm pretty sure he was in the side that played some good stuff in the first half

[Carlito Roberto]

So truthfully, he's a correct refereeing call away from escaping all this criticism, as his goal should've stood. Go back and watch players like Shearer, even in his prime he wasn't electric every time he touched the ball, but when teams played to his strengths he'd score goals by the shedload. Not saying Carroll is, or ever will be as good as Shearer, but he has the tools to score a ton of goals in this league.

I'd agree with that. We just need to play to the lads strengths ie getting good deliveries in from the wide areas and not by-passing the midfield with long balls from our centre backs. There's definitely goals in him, we just need to tweak the way we play if we're going to get the best out of him.

[bigbear]

Really? From a personal point of view I don't get that feeling of excitement I used to get when Torres received the ball, or that I get with Suarez on the ball now. With Carroll he'll hold it up well and lay it off as per his skill set - in terms of functionality he does what's asked of him, but I wouldn't say he's vastly talented on the ball.

I don't think anybody expects him to beat players like Torres or Suarez or for there to be a buzz every time he gets the ball. However, when the ball goes in the opposition's box he is a huge threat. He won 5 or 6 headers in their box yesterday and ultimately that will bring chances and goals.

[Carlito Roberto]

I don't think anybody expects him to beat players like Torres or Suarez or for there to be a buzz every time he gets the ball. However, when the ball goes in the opposition's box he is a huge threat. He won 5 or 6 headers in their box yesterday and ultimately that will bring chances and goals.

Fair comment, he's one of the best headers of a ball I've seen. I just didn't get the bit about him being a 'beast' on the ball.

[carling]

The problem with Carroll, is the style of football we play when he's in the team. I remember Kenny saying his signing wouldn't compromise our beliefs, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case. For such a student of the game it beggars belief how often Carragher looks for the long ball. I'm not sure if Kenny has had a word with him, but the regularity of his hoofs is getting beyond a joke now, it's such an ugly, one dimensional way of playing. Compare that to the Fulham display when the fluidity and interchanging of movement was a joy to behold. It remains to be seen if we're able to play in that manner with Carroll in the side and indeed, if Carroll himself is able to operate in a fluid pass and move system.

You really think Carroll could stop our other 10 players playing good footy?  Are you out of your mind?

At the very least he could occupy the centrebacks while the other players are fashioning an attacking move, and be ready to finish it off.  But he is capable of a lot more than that, certainly far more than you seem to give him credit for. 

He has an eye for a pass and has the ability to weight them, and at Newcastle he was actually criticised for playing one touch passes a bit too often.  They led to a lot of good moves (and goals we could dig up) but at other times didn't work.  Knowing exactly when to play them will come with experience, playing with better players should help too.

Oh and Carra is more than happy to play mindless hoofs towards Ngog or Kuyt, got nothing to do with Carroll.  Don't get me wrong I love Carra, but that part of his game is getting beyond a joke now.

[Hazell]

Fair comment, he's one of the best headers of a ball I've seen. I just didn't get the bit about him being a 'beast' on the ball.

He was very good in the first half, winning the ball simply because of his strength and oftentimes coming deep to help link up with the midfield. As we all get used to each other, we'll see more and more what he's capable of.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Really? From a personal point of view I don't get that feeling of excitement I used to get when Torres received the ball, or that I get with Suarez on the ball now. With Carroll he'll hold it up well and lay it off as per his skill set - in terms of functionality he does what's asked of him, but I wouldn't say he's vastly talented on the ball.

you wouldnt though.
torres was all about slowing a defender down and then using that 10 yard burst with a little skill

both are incredibly workshy

movement is a bit lost on andy but saying that torres would only move for himself

in reality both are limited but we have to hope that as andy matures as a player he will be able to reach a guranteed 7/10 performance each week.
think he needs a lot of time on the training ground meself and should only be used as an option for the time being.

[Robbie_9]

Carroll just needs to be more aggressive and use his pure power to scare opposition defence shitless. He could be like Drogba if he pushed himself, but at the moment its like hes worried about how hes playing whereas he just needs to play.

[bigbear]

Carroll just needs to be more aggressive and use his pure power to scare opposition defence shitless. He could be like Drogba if he pushed himself, but at the moment its like hes worried about how hes playing whereas he just needs to play.

Drogba is an interesting comparison and when thinking like that you must bear in mind that we didn't see Drogba in the top flight until he was 25.

Carroll has an awful lot to learn but that's what being 22 and working every day with Kenny Dalglish is all about.

[Hazell]

Carroll just needs to be more aggressive and use his pure power to scare opposition defence shitless. He could be like Drogba if he pushed himself, but at the moment its like hes worried about how hes playing whereas he just needs to play.

Someone on this forum mentioned that players of his size usually take some time before they understand how to use their attributes to maximum effect and cited Drogba and Vieri as two of his/her examples. Carroll's still learning but he had a good game yesterday, particularly in the first half, and Sunderland clearly had problems in dealing with him. I think we all need to remember that we have a lot of new players, some of them young, like Carroll and Henderson and they usually take some time before we see the best of them.

[its cold in the stands]

First half we were excellent, we moved the ball quickly and there was plenty of fluidity in our movement. It's a load of rubbish to say we can't play that way with him in the side

Really is whopper town on here since yesterday

too many sky generation whoppers who think liverpool have only ever had forwards like fowler and owen.
back in the days when we actually used to win the title we nearly always played with a target man center forward, infact by general consensus what are reckoned to be the two best teams in our history (late 70`s side and late 80`s side) both had target men center forwards in them (dave jonno and aldo)
going by yesterdays performance carroll is similar to jonno on the ground and probably better than aldo, carroll linked up play brilliantly yesterday, he`s not going to beat 5 men and score but neither did jonno or aldo.
the mad thing about this critisism is that andy carroll played well, it`s not his fault he got no support in the second half.

[Carlito Roberto]

You really think Carroll could stop our other 10 players playing good footy?  Are you out of your mind?

At the very least he could occupy the centrebacks while the other players are fashioning an attacking move, and be ready to finish it off.  But he is capable of a lot more than that, certainly far more than you seem to give him credit for. 

He has an eye for a pass and has the ability to weight them, and at Newcastle he was actually criticised for playing one touch passes a bit too often.  They led to a lot of good moves (and goals we could dig up) but at other times didn't work.  Knowing exactly when to play them will come with experience, playing with better players should help too.

Oh and Carra is more than happy to play mindless hoofs towards Ngog or Kuyt, got nothing to do with Carroll.  Don't get me wrong I love Carra, but that part of his game is getting beyond a joke now.

I didn't say that.

I didn't mean to come accross as overly critical of Carroll, it was more about players (especially Carra) taking the easy way out when they look up and see Carroll. I do feel we play a lot more long balls when Carroll is in the side but maybe that's just me. I lost count of the amount of aimless hoofs towards Carroll from our centre backs in the second half. It lacks imagination and we're capaple of better.   

[bigbear]

too many sky generation whoppers who think liverpool have only ever had forwards like fowler and owen.
back in the days when we actually used to win the title we nearly always played with a target man center forward, infact by general consensus what are reckoned to be the two best teams in our history (late 70`s side and late 80`s side) both had target men center forwards in them (dave jonno and aldo)
going by yesterdays performance carroll is similar to jonno on the ground and probably better than aldo, carroll linked up play brilliantly yesterday, he`s not going to beat 5 men and score but neither did jonno or aldo.
the mad thing about this critisism is that andy carroll played well, it`s not his fault he got no support in the second half.

About right that and that doesn't even include Toshack in the mix.

[joezydudek]

I didn't say that.

I didn't mean to come accross as overly critical of Carroll, it was more about players (especially Carra) taking the easy way out when they look up and see Carroll. I do feel we play a lot more long balls when Carroll is in the side but maybe that's just me. I lost count of the amount of aimless hoofs towards Carroll from our centre backs in the second half. It lacks imagination and we're capaple of better.   

I know what you mean and I've raised similar concerns, but we did play some really good stuff in the first half. I think the problem is that the long ball becomes the default option when we suffer a setback such as their equaliser. The team just seems in too much of a rush to force the issue and lacks the confidence to keep playing it on the ground when things aren't going our way. I'm sure Kenny and the coaching staff will sort it in time.

[Breitner]

You really think Carroll could stop our other 10 players playing good footy?  Are you out of your mind?

At the very least he could occupy the centrebacks while the other players are fashioning an attacking move, and be ready to finish it off.  But he is capable of a lot more than that, certainly far more than you seem to give him credit for. 

He has an eye for a pass and has the ability to weight them, and at Newcastle he was actually criticised for playing one touch passes a bit too often.  They led to a lot of good moves (and goals we could dig up) but at other times didn't work.  Knowing exactly when to play them will come with experience, playing with better players should help too.

Oh and Carra is more than happy to play mindless hoofs towards Ngog or Kuyt, got nothing to do with Carroll.  Don't get me wrong I love Carra, but that part of his game is getting beyond a joke now.

Bingo. I hate this this mindset that says modern strikers have be small and quick and involved in the build up. It all comes from watching too much fantasy football and being told this is the only way the game should be played. Aldo was never involved in the build up in the 88 side, he was there to score goals, but we still played some great attacking football

[The Grinch]

Drogba is an interesting comparison and when thinking like that you must bear in mind that we didn't see Drogba in the top flight until he was 25.

Carroll has an awful lot to learn but that's what being 22 and working every day with Kenny Dalglish is all about.

Andy's is a very different player to Drogba for me Drogba in his prime was far more explosive than Andy is ever going to be. Drogba could play as a target man but could also play on the shoulder of the last defender and run in behind them.

I keep hearing the comparisons with Vieri as well but Vieri was also far more explosive than Andy the worry with the Vieri is that when Vieri started to lose that explosiveness and yard of pace in his late twenties his career fell off a cliff.

Personally I think Duncan Ferguson is a much better comparison for Andy than Drogba or Vieri.

[Bob Loblaw]

Christ alive this is like two bald men fighting over a comb.

Sometimes you over pay as we did with Carroll sometimes you under pay as we
did with Enrique.

After the deals are done it just becomes a pointless talking
shop to discuss their price.
They don't run around with their price above their head and we don't lose points
if a high priced player under performs or win them if a low priced player over performs.

Whether it was a mistake to buy him or not its done and it was done 7 bloody months
ago

Bingo. Christ knows i done enough bellyaching of my own over the price, but it's been done to fucking death already. Do we really need this "debate" to surface every time he has a lacklustre performance?

Was he even that bad today?

I think we're seeing too much of him outside the box fwiw. He hasn't really got the legs to be running the channels or chasing balls in behind.

[carling]

I didn't say that.

I didn't mean to come accross as overly critical of Carroll, it was more about players (especially Carra) taking the easy way out when they look up and see Carroll. I do feel we play a lot more long balls when Carroll is in the side but maybe that's just me. I lost count of the amount of aimless hoofs towards Carroll from our centre backs in the second half. It lacks imagination and we're capaple of better.   

What was the point in this comment then:

Compare that to the Fulham display when the fluidity and interchanging of movement was a joy to behold. It remains to be seen if we're able to play in that manner with Carroll in the side

Of course we are capable of what we saw against Fulham with Carroll in the team.  We were playing Kuyt as the lone striker for fuck's sake.  Don't want to sound too harsh on Dirk but him and fluidity don't belong in the same sentence, but as that day proved you don't need 11 players as silk as Iniesta to play good footy.

It is Carra who needs to sort the hoofing out, like others have said it is surprising he even does it.  The blame for that doesn't lie with Carroll, because as you will have noticed last season, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference if he's on the pitch for it to happen.  It just so happens that when he is on the pitch he can actually do something with it, that shouldn't be used as a stick to beat him with.

[subroc]

Carroll just needs to be more aggressive and use his pure power to scare opposition defence shitless. He could be like Drogba if he pushed himself, but at the moment its like hes worried about how hes playing whereas he just needs to play.

I don't think he can ever be like Drogba actually or that he has that much power. Power is strength+pace. Carroll has a lot of strength but not much of pace, or at least acceleration which is most of the pace dimension to a forward.

What he can be like is a latter day Toshack. Or a Crouch who worked out on steroids and who can actually head the ball. I do not think great mobility will ever be a big part of his game - but to use him better, Suarez and the two advanced midfielders have to be moving around him and to be nearer to him. If balls are lofted towards him, he will reach them but his knockdowns require other players near enough to pounce on them.

[FranklyRed]

Oh and Carra is more than happy to play mindless hoofs towards Ngog or Kuyt, got nothing to do with Carroll.  Don't get me wrong I love Carra, but that part of his game is getting beyond a joke now.

Second half yesterday ....
Looked like Carroll wasn't even happy about it. Hoofing is just a sign of poor football skills and also being a bit desperate.

If some rumours are true and we are interested in Cahill and even maybe sign him up I see Carra making less appearances.

We had so many new faces yesterday. Even Carroll is still a new face really. I think Downing and Adam will be really important for the success of Carroll with their crosses, free kick/corners.

[Twelfth Customer]

Andy's is a very different player to Drogba for me Drogba in his prime was far more explosive than Andy is ever going to be. Drogba could play as a target man but could also play on the shoulder of the last defender and run in behind them.

I keep hearing the comparisons with Vieri as well but Vieri was also far more explosive than Andy the worry with the Vieri is that when Vieri started to lose that explosiveness and yard of pace in his late twenties his career fell off a cliff.

Personally I think Duncan Ferguson is a much better comparison for Andy than Drogba or Vieri.

You can throw Shearer into the list as well, another player who could be a target man and focal point for attacks by holding the ball up but then also had the speed to play on the shoulder of defenders and stay ahead of them to create chances. Andy does not have that, Duncan Ferguson is a more apt comparison, with his physical bullying attributes defenders will hate. However Andy does have a rather sweet left foot that drunk'n'disorderly never had. Technically he is a little better than Duncan too.

[jDJ]

When the teams not clicking and we've got Carroll and carra in the team we'll always resort to the long ball. It does Carroll a disservice actually because he's not comfortable playing like that. The problem isn't even that we play direct, it's that the chipped balls are coming from so fcking deep, the midfield is nowhere near the attack. You just never see the likes of united, Barcelona, arsenal, etc going as direct as we do. It's no surprise it spreads from the captain to the teenage lad playing next to him.

What we saw yesterday, we will see time and again when the team's under a bit of pressure and carra and Carroll are playing together.

[subroc]

You can throw Shearer into the list as well, another player who could be a target man and focal point for attacks by holding the ball up but then also had the speed to play on the shoulder of defenders and stay ahead of them to create chances. Andy does not have that, Duncan Ferguson is a more apt comparison, with his physical bullying attributes defenders will hate. However Andy does have a rather sweet left foot that drunk'n'disorderly never had. Technically he is a little better than Duncan too.

On the other hand duncan ferguson had a nice cross on him - of the pugilistic kind! I recall he once knocked out a burglar or something at his house.

[Torben Piechniks Y-Fronts]

Andy Carroll will thrive when we begin to provide him with the service that he is made for i.e. crosses coming back at him, not going by him. With Adam, Downing, Gerrard in the first 11 this service will be brilliant but it will take time.
I personally have no doubt that he will score 20+ goals in all competitions for us this year.

[The Grinch]

What was the point in this comment then:

Of course we are capable of what we saw against Fulham with Carroll in the team.  We were playing Kuyt as the lone striker for fuck's sake.  Don't want to sound too harsh on Dirk but him and fluidity don't belong in the same sentence, but as that day proved you don't need 11 players as silk as Iniesta to play good footy.

It is Carra who needs to sort the hoofing out, like others have said it is surprising he even does it.  The blame for that doesn't lie with Carroll, because as you will have noticed last season, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference if he's on the pitch for it to happen.  It just so happens that when he is on the pitch he can actually do something with it, that shouldn't be used as a stick to beat him with.

The difference between Carroll and Kuyt is that Kuyt despite not being quick makes runs in behind defenders he also pulls centre backs out wide and pushes defences back Andy doesn't he actually makes things worse by looking to drop off and link play.

If a team defends deep then you drop off and link the play but Andy drops off when teams play a high defensive line and ends up playing in the centre circle instead of looking to take defenders back towards their own area. It's exactly the same problem we had with Crouch in the side teams simply play a high line and neutralise the aerial threat.

[Robbie_9]

When the teams not clicking and we've got Carroll and carra in the team we'll always resort to the long ball. It does Carroll a disservice actually because he's not comfortable playing like that. The problem isn't even that we play direct, it's that the chipped balls are coming from so fcking deep, the midfield is nowhere near the attack. You just never see the likes of united, Barcelona, arsenal, etc going as direct as we do. It's no surprise it spreads from the captain to the teenage lad playing next to him.

What we saw yesterday, we will see time and again when the team's under a bit of pressure and carra and Carroll are playing together.

You could tell that come the end Carroll was sick and tired of mainly Carra (although not just him) hoofing it up and under to his head. Carroll likes to attack the ball. He doesnt want to be a static lampost that we work off of, but that what we made him yesterday.

[Breitner]

When the teams not clicking and we've got Carroll and carra in the team we'll always resort to the long ball. It does Carroll a disservice actually because he's not comfortable playing like that. The problem isn't even that we play direct, it's that the chipped balls are coming from so fcking deep, the midfield is nowhere near the attack. You just never see the likes of united, Barcelona, arsenal, etc going as direct as we do. It's no surprise it spreads from the captain to the teenage lad playing next to him.

What we saw yesterday, we will see time and again when the team's under a bit of pressure and carra and Carroll are playing together.

Lot of truth in that, uncomfortably so. Anyone who believes the defence are being told to welly it forward in the hope of Andy flicking one on should look at Carroll's face in the second half, he was visibly frustrated with the service. He had one great ball to attack from Enrique, which he quickly appreciated

[Twelfth Customer]

When the teams not clicking and we've got Carroll and carra in the team we'll always resort to the long ball. It does Carroll a disservice actually because he's not comfortable playing like that. The problem isn't even that we play direct, it's that the chipped balls are coming from so fcking deep, the midfield is nowhere near the attack. You just never see the likes of united, Barcelona, arsenal, etc going as direct as we do. It's no surprise it spreads from the captain to the teenage lad playing next to him.

What we saw yesterday, we will see time and again when the team's under a bit of pressure and carra and Carroll are playing together.

Surely the coaches can stop this happening? I mean it has been a huge criticism of the team, by-passing midfield and Carra hoofs from deep. Why aren't our coaching staff on top of that? With Carra I fear it is some atavistic urge that gets the better of him, no matter how much you tell him he won't be able to curb his instinct to hoof when under pressure. Maybe the midfield which tends to easily get over-run when under pressure are not providing an outlet for the defence?

[subroc]

The difference between Carroll and Kuyt is that Kuyt despite not being quick makes runs in behind defenders he also pulls centre backs out wide and pushes defences back Andy doesn't he actually makes things worse by looking to drop off and link play.

If a team defends deep then you drop off and link the play but Andy drops off when teams play a high defensive line and ends up playing in the centre circle instead of looking to take defenders back towards their own area. It's exactly the same problem we had with Crouch in the side teams simply play a high line and neutralise the aerial threat.

 

Movement is the lifeblood of the team, and Kuyt is a very intelligent mover.