Author Topic: Sick of this World Class BS (Read 12511 times)

Sangria · « **Reply #160 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:17:16 PM »

Quote from: Andy@Allerton on January 31, 2011, 12:14:11 PM

Correct. Even back then Spurs and Manchester United always went for the 'Superstars' and we always won the league anyway.

The 87 FA Cup final springs to mind. A Tottenham midfield of Hodge, Ardiles, Hoddle, P Allen, Waddle, with C Allen up top. I didn't understand at the time why that team didn't win anything. I understand now.

Neil D · « **Reply #161 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:26:45 PM »

Quote from: Red number seven on January 31, 2011, 12:04:26 PM

Fair play to you for believing that about your team, and I understand why you think that, but no neutral would agree with anyone except Rooney (who has had a shit season and I suspect still wants off) and perhaps Ferdinand (who is injury prone and on the wane)

No chance mate, lots of Reds including me have already said on here (and most neutrals I speak to think this as well) that Evra is top class and arguably the best LB in the league alongside Cole, and most fans think that Vidic is world class and the best CB in the league. Has there been a better winger in the country than Nani this year? No. He's been awesome. So you can't say no neutral would agree because most consider those players top or world class already.

Andy @ Allerton · « **Reply #162 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:37:55 PM »

Quote from: Neil D on January 31, 2011, 12:26:45 PM

No chance mate, lots of Reds including me have already said on here (and most neutrals I speak to think this as well) that Evra is top class and arguably the best LB in the league alongside Cole, and most fans think that Vidic is world class and the best CB in the league. Has there been a better winger in the country than Nani this year? No. He's been awesome. So you can't say no neutral would agree because most consider those players top or world class already.

They've not had much competition to be fair this year. The league has been abysmal. The teams have all been awful and individuals have been sporadic and disjointed at best.

Not sure what's happened with the league this season to make it so bad?

Maybe the realisation that the Spanish League is miles ahead, the Italian League is recovering, the French league is on the up and the German league is on a par with us now?

Breitner · « **Reply #163 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:44:07 PM »

I don't think the mancs have that many great individuals, certainly not as many as in the past, but surely the fact that they're likely to win the title proves Walshy's point, that a strong team with a winning mentality is greater than its sum of parts?

Twiggthemanc · « **Reply #164 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:47:07 PM »

Quote from: Breitner on January 31, 2011, 12:44:07 PM

I don't think the mancs have that many great individuals, certainly not as many as in the past, but surely the fact that they're likely to win the title proves Walshy's point, that a strong team with a winning mentality is greater than its sum of parts?

I think it proves that we've got a better first team, and better back up options than most other teams. We have lost a lot of players this year for a long period, and we've had quality to replace them. Players like Giggs and Park wouldn't start every game, but Park alone has won us two games this year. They're very talented players, but they don't mind being rested/rotated. That's the whole way to win the league, have a squad whose happy with being where they are.

Euskadi · « **Reply #165 on:** January 31, 2011, 12:57:45 PM »

Spot on mate. Would like to add as well that even though signing players with abit of a bad rep (Suarez) is not the standard we have been used to especially under Rafa, we have signed a winner. We have been signing too many captain or ambassador type players and of course that is very important but referring back to what you said about United they have winners in their team and will win at all costs and that is what we need to start adding to the cabinet again.

JoeD · « **Reply #166 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:20:47 PM »

There is no "I" in team, and Fergie has a good record of getting shot of those who he feels are getting "ideas" above their station (see DB, RVN, Ince/Stam?). I look forward to seeing how the Rooney situation plays out this summer and the inevitable Nani saga that is to follow in the coming years. from my point of view the rest of the squad know there place and value to Utd and there standing in football in general.

Fred the Red · « **Reply #167 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:45:32 PM »

To be honest we shouldn't have to look too far back to realise that the team ethos is more successful than a bunch of individuals playing for themselves.

2005 anyone?

hedger · « **Reply #168 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:49:12 PM »

Quote from: Breitner on January 31, 2011, 12:10:32 PM

Rubbish. We always had a core of top quality surrounded by good commited players. We made them the best in their respective positions because they played in a great team with a winning forumla, there's a difference. Good players are an absolute necessity but we were never a club to go after the biggest names or reputations. You can compare individuals all day long but it means nothing without a winning mentality and philosophy.

Rubbish? So Dalglish, Kennedy, Hansen, Souness, Rush, Barnes, Beardsley etc were not the best players in the country?
Name the current players we have who are among the best in the country?
You can talk about winning mentality, committment and formations all day long, without the best players you will win very little. And yes we need better backup players as well

cj · « **Reply #169 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:50:22 PM »

Fantastic op Walshy. We live in a world where every twat alive feels the need to tell the world he's having fucking eggs for breakfast. Add football manager to that and we have a bunch of myopic twats who believe they even have a single clue about football. Fuck them and fuck sky for creating the style in the first place.

Guz-kop · « **Reply #170 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:52:12 PM »

Said it in one of the other threads yesterday. If you look at our best teams in the last 10 years (2001/2, 2005/6, 2008/9) they had a few stars complemented by a young, hungry squad who did not cost the earth to buy and managed to play as a cohesive unit. What cost us was the inability to take the next forward with world class talent but proved you can build a decent squad without household/£20m+ names littered around.

Sangria · « **Reply #171 on:** January 31, 2011, 02:08:11 PM »

Quote from: hedger on January 31, 2011, 01:49:12 PM

Rubbish? So Dalglish, Kennedy, Hansen, Souness, Rush, Barnes, Beardsley etc were not the best players in the country?
Name the current players we have who are among the best in the country?
You can talk about winning mentality, committment and formations all day long, without the best players you will win very little. And yes we need better backup players as well

Lucas, and arguably Insua as well, would have improved the side that beat Forest 5-0.

Breitner · « **Reply #172 on:** January 31, 2011, 02:09:45 PM »

Quote from: hedger on January 31, 2011, 01:49:12 PM

Rubbish? So Dalglish, Kennedy, Hansen, Souness, Rush, Barnes, Beardsley etc were not the best players in the country?
Name the current players we have who are among the best in the country?
You can talk about winning mentality, committment and formations all day long, without the best players you will win very little. And yes we need better backup players as well

As I said a core group of top quality supported by the likes of Case, Lee, A Kennedy, Jones, Neal, Callaghan, Thompson, Fairclough, Spackman, Whelan, Venison...need I go on?

lehman_bros · « **Reply #173 on:** January 31, 2011, 02:21:07 PM »

Well Said

Andy Walsh · « **Reply #174 on:** January 31, 2011, 02:28:59 PM »

great op, the manc part aswell, sadly, when need a team willing to play for the club an are fans an players willing to run through brickwalls for the club aswell as eachother, then with hardwork an togetherness while start to see progress on all fronts.

kop1311 · « **Reply #175 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:08:28 PM »

Quote from: Twiggthemanc on January 30, 2011, 11:39:30 PM

It's because simply the best teams win the most trophies. And that includes having the best or "world class" players.

Players like Ferdinand, Vidic, Nani and Evra are probably the best in their position for the league. Berbatov, Rooney, Rafael and VDS can make a strong case for that as well. As can Valencia when fit.

World Class players will win games for you. Real Madrid don't have as many as Barca. No other club has as many as United at the moment.

That has got to be the biggest pile of delusional shite ive ever read on these forums.
Hang your head n get your coat on the way out

kesey · « **Reply #176 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:14:20 PM »

I'd rather have players brought in and moulded into the Liverpool way. So I agree with you post but I reckon that 35 million is too much for Carrol.but just goes to show how mad footie has gone. I can't think what I thought when Kenny brought in Aldo, Beardlsey and Barnes to be honest.

FlashingBlade · « **Reply #177 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:22:06 PM »

Quote from: Fred the Red on January 31, 2011, 01:45:32 PM

To be honest we shouldn't have to look too far back to realise that the team ethos is more successful than a bunch of individuals playing for themselves.

Try last night try Real Madrid ( combined current market value zillions!) full of individuals with great talent but the culmative performance led to a 1-0 defeat to lowly Osesuna who worked their socks off as a team!

simesy · « **Reply #178 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:23:45 PM »

Quote from: hedger on January 31, 2011, 01:49:12 PM

Rubbish? So Dalglish, Kennedy, Hansen, Souness, Rush, Barnes, Beardsley etc were not the best players in the country?
Name the current players we have who are among the best in the country?
You can talk about winning mentality, committment and formations all day long, without the best players you will win very little. And yes we need better backup players as well

Think what he's trying to say is that none of those apart from maybe beardsly(my opinion only) were top class when bought.They went from being very good players to world class after joining us.PLUS they fitted into a system of play that had been going since shankly.

simesy · « **Reply #179 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:38:22 PM »

Quote from: kesey on January 31, 2011, 05:14:20 PM

I'd rather have players brought in and moulded into the Liverpool way. So I agree with you post but I reckon that 35 million is too much for Carrol.but just goes to show how mad footie has gone. I can't think what I thought when Kenny brought in Aldo, Beardlsey and Barnes to be honest.

I along with probably the majority thought they were going to be good because as a club we always moved on quickly anyone who wasn't up to it and brought in new players with the minimum of fuss.Although in the case of the above three kenny changed the dynamic of attacking play because we were trying to get over replacing rushy(no mean feat)We just took it for granted that players came into the side without too much adjustment.Agree with you on the price for carrol.even with the inflated prices of english players in todays market his true worth is probably nearer 15-20 mill.He's not had long enough in the premiership to make an assesment imo.

kesey · « **Reply #180 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:49:38 PM »

Quote from: simesy on January 31, 2011, 05:38:22 PM

I along with probably the majority thought they were going to be good because as a club we always moved on quickly anyone who wasn't up to it and brought in new players with the minimum of fuss.Although in the case of the above three kenny changed the dynamic of attacking play because we were trying to get over replacing rushy(no mean feat)We just took it for granted that players came into the side without too much adjustment.Agree with you on the price for carrol.even with the inflated prices of english players in todays market his true worth is probably nearer 15-20 mill.He's not had long enough in the premiership to make an assesment imo.

I guess I had the same fellin gto be honest. But I couldnt remember any time when the forward like chnaged so quick. Three in at once is a gamble but as we all know it paid off.

jDJ · « **Reply #181 on:** January 31, 2011, 05:57:03 PM »

Well you don't have to worry about this world class bullshit anymore, we're spunking the Torres cash on Carroll and Adam. I'm glad the whole Masch, Torres, Alonso era is behind us - when's Carra fit?

kesey · « **Reply #182 on:** January 31, 2011, 06:03:59 PM »

Quote from: jDJ on January 31, 2011, 05:57:03 PM

when's Carra fit?

He's gone to Tranmere mate.

HindleyRedSkin · « **Reply #183 on:** January 31, 2011, 06:44:48 PM »

Quote from: jDJ on January 31, 2011, 05:57:03 PM

I'm glad the whole Masch, Torres, Alonso era is behind us

Me too. Won fuck all.

peelyon · « **Reply #184 on:** January 31, 2011, 06:47:42 PM »

Just saw shirt burning (Torres shirt) on SSN outside Melwood....

keyo · « **Reply #185 on:** February 2, 2011, 12:50:07 AM »

Quote from: peelyon on January 31, 2011, 06:47:42 PM

Just saw shirt burning (El Ninny shirt) on SSN outside Melwood....

errmmm.....was it world class shirt burning?

Tigerheart · « **Reply #186 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:11:28 AM »

The whole premise of this thread is analogous to "I tried my best and it didn't work so let's see what happens if I don't try at all". So stupid. "Why do weed need high calibre players?". F'kin hell.

Tigerheart · « **Reply #187 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:13:24 AM »

I think you'll find that Real Madrid are second because the club ahead of them have spent themselves into 500million euros of debt to buy even better players. Wake up and smell the reality.

Phil M · « **Reply #188 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:20:35 AM »

Quote from: CHOPPER on January 30, 2011, 11:40:05 PM

Clear cut! What does that mean? A cut was clear!? How do you look through a cut?

Bangin Them In · « **Reply #189 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:24:48 AM »

Quote from: Twiggthemanc on January 30, 2011, 11:39:30 PM

It's because simply the best teams win the most trophies. And that includes having the best or "world class" players.

Players like Ferdinand, Vidic, Nani and Evra are probably the best in their position for the league. Berbatov, Rooney, Rafael and VDS can make a strong case for that as well. As can Valencia when fit.

World Class players will win games for you. Real Madrid don't have as many as Barca. No other club has as many as United at the moment.

Much comedy here

Ran out of bold pen.

Phil M · « **Reply #190 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:26:12 AM »

Quote from: Tigerheart on February 2, 2011, 01:11:28 AM

The whole premise of this thread is analogous to "I tried my best and it didn't work so let's see what happens if I don't try at all". So stupid. "Why do weed need high calibre players?". F'kin hell.

Who said we don't need 'high calibre players"?

Colin · « **Reply #191 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:34:47 AM »

Stupid and small minded thread

So youre sick of the "world class" rhetoric. Okay, so.....so what?

Doesn't mean we don't need world class players.

Lets not forget even in the "old days" the Keegans, Dalglish's etcc etc were all of this calibre.

Lets hope Suarez and Carroll become similarly great.

Zappa · « **Reply #192 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:46:20 AM »

Quote from: Fred the Red on January 31, 2011, 01:45:32 PM

To be honest we shouldn't have to look too far back to realise that the team ethos is more successful than a bunch of individuals playing for themselves.

2005 anyone?

Pick any of the champion teams - they were mostly built rather than bought - they were TEAMS rather than individuals.

Arguably many of the players in those successful teams were not good enough - the way we judge things today.

None of our successful managers would have been good enough

All the guff about "the game is different today" is just hot air. Todays players are fitter and faster but its still a simple game apart from the non-contact element.

Kenny's comment on the lack of dressing room atmosphere & banter is the most telling thing I've heard in years.
Sulking egos have no place in our dressing room

Tigerheart · « **Reply #193 on:** February 2, 2011, 01:49:23 AM »

Quote from: walshys_mullet on January 30, 2011, 11:27:04 PM

You know are we not supposed to be knowledgeable?

Im sick of tired of reading in threads, Adam isnt good enough, Young isnt good enough. Why do we need only high calibre players? Can someone enlighten me?

Look at Madrid. A veritable whose who of stars, yet they cant win a dickiebird. We had Alonso, Masch, Reina, El Ninny and Gerrard and won nothing.

World class players do not equal great teams. As Liverpool fans we should know this more than anyone. Yes the game may have changed somewhat but the basics remain the same.

Would you say Manchester United have a world class team? How many world class players do they have? Rooney? er...thats it? I wouldnt bracket Vidic, Nani or Berabtov as world class, good but not world class. Their team is average. You know why they are successful? Because they live and die as a team with a manager in charge who gets the very best out of them.

When Rushy left in 87 Kenny went out and bought Beardsley, the best player from a mid table club, Barnes, the best player of a mid to bottom club and Aldo and Houghton from a bottom club. We stormed the league.

Its about the right components not the biggest talents. We need to get back to basics. I think for too long now we've been as a team overly reliant on Gerrard, over reliant on El Ninny and Alonso and its made the team suffer massively, theres no collective focus. I have faith under Kenny he will get the team playing as a cohesive attacking unit, whether thats with Charlie Adam or Young or not.

I want to see us get back up there, i want us to play attacking football, i want us to have teams fearful of Anfield again, i dont want a team having to only nullify one aspect of our team to render us useless. If that means we have 11 players from the spl, league 1 and lower prem, so be it.

Just remember although football has become big business its the man in charge who directs the team, not superstars and anyone who can remember how the old boot room did it will know that.

Patience with kenny, faith in his ability, his decisions on purchases will go along way, so let's all cut out the spoilt Champ manager esq squealing, get back to what we know best.

Over and out.

keyo · « **Reply #194 on:** February 2, 2011, 11:11:28 PM »

Quote from: Tigerheart on February 2, 2011, 01:49:23 AM

the key word in the highlighted bit is only......and before you go on about the need for players to be of a certain standard, i think the point being made is that there appears to be a demand for players we buy to be proven world class players before they will be accepted as "good enough" for lfc, ignoring that the club should be capable of buying players that do a job required of them regardless of what their rating in the media is......ray houghton being a great example in dalglish's first spell...top player, but very much under the radar in terms of rating players of the time, and low key compared to barnes and beardsley, but did a job and the team as a whole worked, not just because of the top quality players but because the team was made up of good players doing their job all over the park.......the better the player the better the outcome, but you cannot always buy the best player in that position to do the job required

Andy @ Allerton · « **Reply #195 on:** February 2, 2011, 11:21:33 PM »

Amuses me that Gerrard apparantly got MoM. That sums up the world today. He had a decent game.

Well done to him. But it wasn't him.

Fair play. We move on.

Neil D · « **Reply #196 on:** February 2, 2011, 11:45:07 PM »

Thought Gerrard was boss second half myself, got everybody going and really seemed out to prove a point. No problem at all with him getting MOTM, his dynamism was great to see again.

Rouge · « **Reply #197 on:** February 3, 2011, 12:16:22 AM »

I agree with the context of the OP, but the players like Young have been mentioned as a answer for particularly weak spots in our team, which we relied on average players to fill, we need a high calibre/world class whatever you like to call them player in some positions in our team (particularly on the left side where Young was supposed to play), I like many others feel we need to spend more to buy these type of players to fill positions in what ever team they are in, just like Barnes who we paud a record sum for Watford in the 80's

keyo · « **Reply #198 on:** February 4, 2011, 07:42:34 AM »

Quote from: Neil D on February 2, 2011, 11:45:07 PM

Thought Gerrard was boss second half myself, got everybody going and really seemed out to prove a point. No problem at all with him getting MOTM, his dynamism was great to see again.

it certainly was a different display from gerrard......one where his drive, enthusiasm and ambition are the strengths we see