Topic: Understanding how a deal is done

[Something Else]

When i was a mod last time round, I opened a similar thread and got little thought out replies, bar what happens in footy manager.

However in the Suarez thread and the Adam thread we have experts in this field who say where we are going wrong, what we should be doing and what is the best way to do things.

Now personally I have a rough idea of how transfers work, but only like I have a rough idea of certain processes i work with, that i do not have to run, just have an idea of how they work.

Obviously you first have to target a player and scout them. Then you have to have an idea of how much you are willing to pay, based on your valuation. This is likely to be very different to the selling clubs, but you have to weigh up, whether the player will adapt, will fit the system, will be able to live happily in the area and will enjoy his time here.

Then you have to think how much you can pay him, then contact the selling club and start to negotiate. At this point it all gets a bit cloudy for me, and I imagine rather complicated, with fees up front, fees based on clauses and so on, as well as agreeing media statements once the deal goes through etc.

Then, though i bet at the same time, you must deal with the agent, again i imagine this is far from straightforward. Then there is the medical, then the final signing.

Seems simple hey, and maybe thats why we have so many experts on here slagging those doing LFC's deals.

Let us not forget that at every step until an agreement has been signed, everything can change in seconds when dealing with people.

[AriGold]

Spot on. We have top businessmen in charge of us now, they know what they're doing. I, like everyone else want the deal wrapped up asap but I know I have to be patient and I'm confident it will pay off.

[Something Else]

Spot on. We have top businessmen in charge of us now, they know what they're doing. I, like everyone else want the deal wrapped up asap but I know I have to be patient and I'm confident it will pay off.

The thing is, this window is the new owners first. The thing is they have no time to make mistakes, as one mistake makes the next ten deals more difficult.

The way I see it, is if we can bargain on Suarez and Adam and get the best deal for us, then it is possible we may have enough left over for a third player, or even a fourth for all we know. However what is certain is should we be taken the cleaners in these two deals, then future deals will only be more difficult.

Patience is indeed key, and with many of the old mouth pieces and sources removed, like Kenny says, the less known in the public about our dealings the better, even if it does make certain parts of this forum redundant.

I would love though to be talked through a proper deal, and feel at the end of it I had the true and full story.

[Guz-kop]

Spot on. We have top businessmen in charge of us now, they know what they're doing.

Do we? The only one with any football experience is Comolli...but for all the players he is praised/criticised for signing at Arsenal, Spurs, St Ettiene how many of them did he personally head the negotiations for as opposed to the chief exec? Not a criticism this - a genuine question.

Disclaimer : I'm not saying we're being brilliant, or saying the sky is falling down and we're doing shit. Just curious.

[Fernando-Towers]

The thing is, this window is the new owners first. The thing is they have no time to make mistakes, as one mistake makes the next ten deals more difficult.

The way I see it, is if we can bargain on Suarez and Adam and get the best deal for us, then it is possible we may have enough left over for a third player, or even a fourth for all we know. However what is certain is should we be taken the cleaners in these two deals, then future deals will only be more difficult.

Patience is indeed key, and with many of the old mouth pieces and sources removed, like Kenny says, the less known in the public about our dealings the better, even if it does make certain parts of this forum redundant.

I would love though to be talked through a proper deal, and feel at the end of it I had the true and full story.

Agreed. Have been saying similar things for ages.

And it pisses me off how some of our fans seem to assume that FSG are novices, like they've wandered in off the street to take charge of a £300m football club with no experience of this sort of thing. It's ridiculous. I even posted a few example of tricky deals they've done in the baseball arena as example of them getting the deal done when needed (no one wanted to talk about that of course, we're all to busy shouting "SHOW ME THE MONEY" in a Jerry McGuire style). The Suarez and Adam deals have highlighted how some fans couldn't give a monkeys about the long term health of the club as long as we have a shiny new bauble every few months.

[JimmysHammer]

I imagine that after the steps you describe there is no small amount of to-and-fro with the agent trying to get the best deal for his client, and the club negotiator trying to get the best deal for his employer (for Harry Redknapp deals this is forgotten in favour of crisp unused notes in a brown paper bag) with either side starting at a extreme high/low point and slowly comprimising.

I would also imagine that any agent would inform any new club of curretn wages and bonus' within his clients contract, and expect most of not all of those to be improved upon.

i would also think that the players desire to play for any club would impact on the wage and ease of transfer, in ther case of Adam for example, he seems dead keen on joining us, hence the transfer request (i think i am right in saying the the selling club will often add any fee's that would need to be paid to the player into the selling fee - loyalty bonus' etc)

But i honestly think that the people we have looking after these are some fo the best available, NESV seem a little too savvy to leave their money in the hands of anyone less than the best

[dh07kop]

When i was a mod last time round, I opened a similar thread and got little thought out replies, bar what happens in footy manager.

However in the Suarez thread and the Adam thread we have experts in this field who say where we are going wrong, what we should be doing and what is the best way to do things.

Now personally I have a rough idea of how transfers work, but only like I have a rough idea of certain processes i work with, that i do not have to run, just have an idea of how they work.

Obviously you first have to target a player and scout them. Then you have to have an idea of how much you are willing to pay, based on your valuation. This is likely to be very different to the selling clubs, but you have to weigh up, whether the player will adapt, will fit the system, will be able to live happily in the area and will enjoy his time here.

Then you have to think how much you can pay him, then contact the selling club and start to negotiate. At this point it all gets a bit cloudy for me, and I imagine rather complicated, with fees up front, fees based on clauses and so on, as well as agreeing media statements once the deal goes through etc.

Then, though i bet at the same time, you must deal with the agent, again i imagine this is far from straightforward. Then there is the medical, then the final signing.

Seems simple hey, and maybe thats why we have so many experts on here slagging those doing LFC's deals.

Let us not forget that at every step until an agreement has been signed, everything can change in seconds when dealing with people.

The thing is mate, the negotating between the two clubs happen before the player agents negotations as you said.
Which means, if GH or Comolli offered for Charlie Adam for any amount, then the clubs should negotiate until the price is right.
This means Hollaway done things wrong skipping a step and bringing the media in to it all.
By letting the media know, he put pressure on his player to a point where the player is going to be unsettled now.
Overall he could of kept things behind closed doors and negotiated until the price was right, then involve the player and his agent, no?

[jason42]

People are expecting that as soon as we get linked with a player the deal is done. As SE said there are so many things that can jeopardise a deal and there are so many 't's' to cross and 'i's' to dot....
The only time I believe a deal to be done is when it appears on Liverpoolfc.tv....

[JimmysHammer]

The thing is mate, the negotating between the two clubs happen before the player agents negotations as you said.
Which means, if GH or Comolli offered for Charlie Adam for any amount, then the clubs should negotiate until the price is right.
This means Hollaway done things wrong skipping a step and bringing the media in to it all.
By letting the media know, he put pressure on his player to a point where the player is going to be unsettled now.
Overall he could of kept things behind closed doors and negotiated until the price was right, then involve the player and his agent, no?

I think we'd all be a little nieve to believe that the buying club have no idea what the player would be asking for before the are officially allowed to speak to the player.

even more so know there are the financial restrictions on the horizon

[..Bruiser..]

Spot on. We may or may not want a top class defender and left back in the Summer and if we get ripped off now we'd be paying £30m for a left-back.

[dh07kop]

Going back to hollaway.....
My verdict is that Blackpool do want to sell Adam but are using the media to advertise him.
Basically letting other teams know he's for sale because they want a bidding war to go on.
No problem with that at all but it is wrong to acuse GH of bad negotiating when it is Ian Hollaway in my opinion.

[Fernando-Towers]

Spot on. We may or may not want a top class defender and left back in the Summer and if we get ripped off now we'd be paying £30m for a left-back.

Exactly. Man City pay a premium on just about every transfer they conduct. Why? Because the selling club knows they can simply demand more and if City really want the player, they have the money to pay it. If we put ourselves in a similar position (for example, by paying any more than £6-7m for Charlie Adam, or £25m for Suarez), they we are mugs of the highest order.

Of course, in the Summer the Financial Fair Play Rules will start to bite, at which point the balance between selling club and buying club will become very interesting.

[Crouch Potato]

I think way too many people think of buying a player as a simple matter from playing too much Football Manager.

[JimmysHammer]

Going back to hollaway.....
My verdict is that Blackpool do want to sell Adam but are using the media to advertise him.
Basically letting other teams know he's for sale because they want a bidding war to go on.
No problem with that at all but it is wrong to acuse GH of bad negotiating when it is Ian Hollaway in my opinion.

I tihnk you have to make the destinction between Holloway and Blackpool here mate, i am sure (as sure as anyone guessing can be  ) that Holloway would not want to lose his best player, and he certainly doesn't strike me as the kind of bloke who would let himself be bullied into saying things he didn't want to.

You maybe right that Blackpool do want to sell the player, but realistically how much would it cost for Blackpool to replace him.
thats where their valuation will come from IMO, and that would also be the best way for them to placate a manager and the fans after selling a player that could be ther difference between Premier league survival and going down.

Sell for £x millions, use that money to buy a bigish name, and keep everyone happy.

[JimmysHammer]

I think way too many people think of buying a player as a simple matter from playing too much Football Manager.

I would think its a million times more complex mate, think more along the lines of selling you house to a stranger but having to convince or bribe the house to let you live in it. as well as convincing the seller of the same thing.

[Greg]

However what is certain is should we be taken the cleaners in these two deals, then future deals will only be more difficult.

I'm pretty certain that this functionality - i.e. overpaying for a player in one instance, automatically means selling clubs will always ask want higher transfer fees for future transfers - hasn't been modelled in Football Manager, and therefore might not be what happens in reality.

A lot of posters on this forum know how to negotiate. That much is clear. If they think our initial offer for Adam should be £8m, then our initial offer for Adam should be £8m. They have correctly unmasked Comolli as a good football scout, but not a trained negotiator. They are only trying to help him. He has done well to identify the target, but he should now stand aside and let the StevieG-08 and Anfield_Red sort out the financials and close the deal.

[noblet10]

Fact is probably none of us really understand the process of signing a player through a transfer. We just kind of understand the basic stages of a transfer, not actually what goes on. If we did, we would be working in some end of the process. As long as alot of transfer sagas go on, it must be fucking crazy difficult.

[Cribertinokes]

What the transfer forum mods forget is that even though Liverpool have experienced, professionals sorting out transfers who have first hand experience at processing and completing transfers, on here there are a several experts who read a lot of football websites, keep updated on twitter and play football manager so you should know that they know what we should be doing transfer wise, I mean Comolli has actually done transfers in the past but I hear one guy has two computer screens to read twice as much on transfers.

[helmboy_nige]

Naturally, the problem we have these days is a mix of 24 hour news/internet demanding immediate answers and the footie manager generation over-simplifying things.

My view is that we have a reputation at LFC of having been screwed over a number of times either by being out-negotiated or panic buying.  As an earlier poster said, this is our new owners first ever transfer window and a chance for them to set a marker down for how they want to do business.

In a way if we fail to sign anyone in this window I actually won't be too disheartened, because it will have sent a message to other clubs that LFC is no longer there to be taken for a ride.  We will negotiate in a tough manner, which is how it should be done.

Of course there are risks with this strategy, but I respect the owners for trying it.  It's no different to what Man U, Real et al do year in year out.  The only difference is that they tend to have much deeper pockets for it their strategy fails.

Am not sure of how the whole process works, but I know that it will involve a lot of back and forth, a lot of phone calls and a lot of waiting around.  The people who make the decisions aren't just sitting around waiting for some club to call and offer money or say yes, they have day jobs too.

[Greg]

What the transfer forum mods forget is that even though Liverpool have experienced, professionals sorting out transfers who have first hand experience at processing and completing transfers, on here there are a several experts who read a lot of football websites, keep updated on twitter and play football manager so you should know that they know what we should be doing transfer wise, I mean Comolli has actually done transfers in the past but I hear one guy has two computer screens to read twice as much on transfers.

Comolli has scouted players before, but never done any negotiations before. I have 2 monitors.

[MikkeB]

The thing is, this window is the new owners first. The thing is they have no time to make mistakes, as one mistake makes the next ten deals more difficult.

I've heard this statement a lot, but the logic of it doesnt actually make sense. I understand it in the context of Man city, but i honestly cant think of a team that has either won the league or champs league that hasnt spent an extortionate amount of money on a player.  Real, Barca, ManU, Chelsea to name a few. Teams that win spend the money to do so, thats the way this league works. despite what people say, supply and demand dominate the prices of players and the cost teams are willing to go to to win. A good example is Arsenal and Barca. Both buy players and encourage an a style of play that require technically efficient players. Barca pay a lot of money for the players that they dont nurture themselves but that fit what they need, Arsenal tend not to splash such sums any more. The difference being, Arsenal havent won anything for a long time, yet play very good football. Also many of the teams that spend big, make huge mistakes, but that doesnt worry them, so why should it worry us? Did spending 20 mil on Keane damage us?

[Jellies]

Even if it's a monkey who deals with Ajax and Blackpool, it probably knows a hell of a lot more about it than we do.

[Greg]

I've heard this statement a lot, but the logic of it doesnt actually make sense. I understand it in the context of Man city, but i honestly cant think of a team that has either won the league or champs league that hasnt spent an extortionate amount of money on a player.  Real, Barca, ManU, Chelsea to name a few. Teams that win spend the money to do so, thats the way this league works. despite what people say, supply and demand dominate the prices of players and the cost teams are willing to go to to win. A good example is Arsenal and Barca. Both buy players and encourage an a style of play that require technically efficient players. Barca pay a lot of money for the players that they dont nurture themselves but that fit what they need, Arsenal tend not to splash such sums any more. The difference being, Arsenal havent won anything for a long time, yet play very good football. Also many of the teams that spend big, make huge mistakes, but that doesnt worry them, so why should it worry us? Did spending 20 mil on Keane damage us?

It's not really the point.

Liverpool have new owners. How much money are they prepared to spend on transfers? You don't know, the fans don't know, other fans don't know, other chairmen don't know. If we overspend on the Suarez deal now - or at least are seen to meet the Ajax asking price, then what prices will other chairmen ask for their players who we're interested in?

Example: Holloway came out the other day and rejected Villa's £3.5m bid for Adam, but also went on to say how insulting it was that they'd spent £24m on Darren Bent (Holloway used the upper figure, not the lower figure of £18m) but offered such a measly amount for his captain. He now thinks Villa will pay over the odds for someone if they REALLY want someone.

If Liverpool play loads of money for Suarez, other chairmen and managers will think the same as Blackpool did. They will demand more money if they think we've got it. More than what the player might be worth.

Do you now understand this logic?

[Crackerjack Sam]

Good thread!

I'm sure there's one on here about what happens if end up signing no one in this window. Especially with one player now gone to Germany.

This window and the one before have made me hate the media even more. Twitter knows bugger all and neither do Talkshite but people are desperate  to find out the latest news on a player. People forget that the media (specifically journos) can be biased towards a particluar club or manager and write nothing but crap about other clubs and managers, apart from the ones they support. Lazy journalism at it's best, based on scraps and shite!

As soon as Kenny addressed the transfer questions in the Wolves post match, my mind was at rest! He knows whose on the way and who isn't!

[Danyaals Kop]

Nice to know

[Crackerjack Sam]

If Liverpool play loads of money for Suarez, other chairmen and managers will think the same as Blackpool did. They will demand more money if they think we've got it. More than what the player might be worth.

Do you now understand this logic?

THIS

[Alan_X]

I'm pretty certain that this functionality - i.e. overpaying for a player in one instance, automatically means selling clubs will always ask want higher transfer fees for future transfers - hasn't been modelled in Football Manager, and therefore might not be what happens in reality.

A lot of posters on this forum know how to negotiate. That much is clear. If they think our initial offer for Adam should be £8m, then our initial offer for Adam should be £8m. They have correctly unmasked Comolli as a good football scout, but not a trained negotiator. They are only trying to help him. He has done well to identify the target, but he should now stand aside and let the StevieG-08 and Anfield_Red sort out the financials and close the deal.

 

[mickeydocs]

Comolli has scouted players before, but never done any negotiations before.

Is this true? Potentially massive hurdle if it is.

[Greg]

Is this true? Potentially massive hurdle if it is.

99% of the content on this forum isn't true mate, why are you just questioning this? I've said, so, er, yes, it's true. Must be. Definitely.

[Guz-kop]

It's not really the point.

Liverpool have new owners. How much money are they prepared to spend on transfers? You don't know, the fans don't know, other fans don't know, other chairmen don't know. If we overspend on the Suarez deal now - or at least are seen to meet the Ajax asking price, then what prices will other chairmen ask for their players who we're interested in?

Example: Holloway came out the other day and rejected Villa's £3.5m bid for Adam, but also went on to say how insulting it was that they'd spent £24m on Darren Bent (Holloway used the upper figure, not the lower figure of £18m) but offered such a measly amount for his captain. He now thinks Villa will pay over the odds for someone if they REALLY want someone.

If Liverpool play loads of money for Suarez, other chairmen and managers will think the same as Blackpool did. They will demand more money if they think we've got it. More than what the player might be worth.

Do you now understand this logic?

Only really an issue when you see mass silly spending like Blue mancs/Chelsea in a short period of time. We're not doing that and unlikely we ever will. Spending big, more than what some think is acceptable, on one player isn't necessarily going to set a trend. The mancs signed Evra for £7m, Vidic for a similar price too. Did those two selling clubs see how much United spent on the likes of Rooney and then say they want double what they got? Every transfer has a unique set of circumstances, you can't generalise about every one.

It is true we will have a restricted (to what extent is anyone's guess) budget and paying STUPIDLY over the odds for a player is beyond our reach. BUT there are lessons to be learnt from our past 10 years or so. Names like Duff, Simao, Alves, Ronaldo - would anyone have cared if we'd have paid "over the odds" (by a few million, not £30m instead of £10m) for these players? If we'd coughed up the cash for Simao would we have been a better team? Would Damien Duff not have added a massive amount to Houllier's team in ~2003? IF Parry/Moores had said no to those signing because we had a moral disagreement about inflated prices (rather than simply being priced out) - would they have done the right thing or the wrong thing in terms of the club's progression?

In 2006 we finished a point behind Man United. That summer they went out and bought Michael Carrick for £18m and got Paul Scholes back from injury. They won the league the next season. Do you think they give a shit that they spent over the odds for Carrick? If Suarez signs for £xm then time will tell if it was the right decision to meet Ajax's evaluation or not. Likewise if we decide to pull out.

(p.s. I'm not disagreeing with the complexities of negotiation - I really couldn't care less how long it takes if the right decision gets done)

[Left_Egg]

I think we're missing a CEO big time, somebody with connections and respect (and power!).

I don't think Comolli was originally earmarked as our chief negotiator but with the absence of a CEO who else where they meant to ask?  When we get a CEO, DC can go back to being a scout

[Left_Egg]

It's not really the point.

Liverpool have new owners. How much money are they prepared to spend on transfers? You don't know, the fans don't know, other fans don't know, other chairmen don't know. If we overspend on the Suarez deal now - or at least are seen to meet the Ajax asking price, then what prices will other chairmen ask for their players who we're interested in?

Example: Holloway came out the other day and rejected Villa's £3.5m bid for Adam, but also went on to say how insulting it was that they'd spent £24m on Darren Bent (Holloway used the upper figure, not the lower figure of £18m) but offered such a measly amount for his captain. He now thinks Villa will pay over the odds for someone if they REALLY want someone.

If Liverpool play loads of money for Suarez, other chairmen and managers will think the same as Blackpool did. They will demand more money if they think we've got it. More than what the player might be worth.

Do you now understand this logic?

Or on the flipside, they'll see we've already spent the most of our transfer budget on world class player(s) and aren't bluffing when we say 'this is the best we can afford'.

[Something Else]

one thing you must remember, a lot of what is said in the media, is for the fans. Neither club has to go out into the media to tell the other club or the player something, they can do that in person. The media whirl is for us fans

[stockdam]

One thing that I don't understand........

What initiates a bid for a player? Does the selling club give hints that somebody may be up for sale? Does the buying club get a nudge that says that a player is looking around? The buying club is not meant to talk to a player unless the selling club allows them.

What's to stop teams making bids for Torres or Gerrard every transfer window?

[farawayred]

One thing that I don't understand........

What initiates a bid for a player? Does the selling club give hints that somebody may be up for sale? Does the buying club get a nudge that says that a player is looking around? The buying club is not meant to talk to a player unless the selling club allows them.

What's to stop teams making bids for Torres or Gerrard every transfer window?

Since you have three parties in a deal, you have three possible answers:
1. Current club wants to sell a misfit - talks to player's agent and tell him to look elsewhere. Agent smiles at the sight of a cut.
2. Other club wants to buy a player who's doing really well - ask the club if the player is available. Meanwhile the press tips the player's agent, who makes fuss and tries to convince the current club to sell. Agent smiles at the sight of a cut.
3. Agent engineers a move for a player a-la-Kia-Joorabchian. Turns the player's head that such and such club want him and he has to grow up professionally. Player agrees. Agent smiles at the sight of a cut.

Just saw your edition, I'm sure that bids are coming in now and then. If a club sees negative comments from Gerrard or Torres, or if the club is not doing well, or if the weather in England is bad, other clubs will try and bid for them. The issue with that is that not many clubs can afford them two, and Gerrard will probably stay with us for life. Torres may be gone in the summer, I fear.

[Something Else]

One thing that I don't understand........

What initiates a bid for a player? Does the selling club give hints that somebody may be up for sale? Does the buying club get a nudge that says that a player is looking around? The buying club is not meant to talk to a player unless the selling club allows them.

What's to stop teams making bids for Torres or Gerrard every transfer window?

we have had a number of bids for Torres, just not gone public.

The public thing is crucial in terms of deals.

For example. Should someone want a player, say we want Suarez, if we go public its to excite our fans. If Ajax do its either to show to their fans they are keeping him, or to improve bids and suggest to fans that they got a great deal

As for who initiates I think all of the above

A player may be known to be for sale, or may just be targeted, you may be offered a player etc.

As for not talking to a player first, i reckon that rarely happens these days

[conman]

Well said lad, I hope the kneejerkers can spare a minute of their very important lives to read this, take a deep breath and button it

[4H_Poker]

Excellent thread, SE.

Wish people would stop harping on about how FSG has no money, no ambition, etc, and we should just spend any amount

Negotiations are an art, and a lesson in patience and attention to detail.

Ever tried to buy a car .. at least here in the States ... if you take any of the first 5 offers from the dealer, you're getting it in the rear !

They're called dealers for a reason!

[Something Else]

Excellent thread, SE.

Wish people would stop harping on about how FSG has no money, no ambition, etc, and we should just spend any amount

Negotiations are an art, and a lesson in patience and attention to detail.

Ever tried to buy a car .. at least here in the States ... if you take any of the first 5 offers from the dealer, you're getting it in the rear !

They're called dealers for a reason!

Dont know where you buy cars, but maybe you should go to an official above board dealer

[Legendary]

I imagine FSG has a valuation of Suarez and has factored in merchandise sales, future success, and potential sell-on value into the final price. It's poor business tactics to say at the beginning, I'll pay 24 million for this player, even if you're willing to go that high.

It's just like a barter, but with bigger stakes. You start low, the seller starts high, after enough games you eventually work out a price. And if FSG don't work out a price, it's probably because Ajax were unreasonable with their requests, not because FSG lacked the resolve to finish the deal.

Have faith, you don't become millionaires/billionaires like Henry from fumbling around business deals.