Author Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership  (Read 230036 times)

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1640 on: March 2, 2012, 01:09:57 PM »
United when they played Arsenal at home had Jones, Smalling and Evans in the back four Cleverley in midfield and Wellbeck upfront and were rewarded with an 8-2 win. Against that scenario we are terrified of playing a Copa America winner in a back five with the likes of Reina, Enrique, Skrtel and Johnson or Kelly.

That for me highlights why United have been building teams and winning titles for twenty years and why we have been looking backwards at our titles for twenty years.

I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1641 on: March 2, 2012, 01:25:50 PM »
I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 

Aye but he's learnt from that mistake it seems...Smalling and Jones are now playing in the ingurland side
whilst we're still afraid to play our uruguayan centre half who starts for a team that went far in the world cup and are the best side in south america...
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1642 on: March 2, 2012, 01:26:10 PM »
That's another thing I didn't understand at the time and still puzzles me to this day. 3-0 up against a completely deflated Wolves team, Agger has some minor problems and with 8 minutes to go, 3 goal lead we bring on Carragher, with Coates on the bench. I don't get why we didn't use Coates. Was the perfect to give him the chance to pick up a few minutes and get familiarised with his team mates. It's odd sentimental stuff like that which confuses me. That Wolves team was never going to score one goal, let alone 3 so why not use the youngster instead of just boosting Carragher's appearance count.

That type of thought is perfectly clear and rational. I agree 100%.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1643 on: March 2, 2012, 01:39:14 PM »
yes, i would say that any change decision  on personnel should be guided towards supporting Skrtl's natural game, as he is the in-form player.

This for me is the most important thing.

He is indeed the in form defender.  He's got to play on the right hand side of the defence as usual, and not be shoe horned into the team to accomodate whoever replaces Agger.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1644 on: March 2, 2012, 01:41:42 PM »
True. As much as I dislike Ferguson, he's not afraid to give younger players a chance and get shot of the older ones when needs be. We should be doing that instead of looking to Carragher or even Gerrard to a certain extent.
Agree on the first point, as for the second unless he falls out with them he rarely offloads.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1645 on: March 2, 2012, 01:44:54 PM »
Agree on the first point, as for the second unless he falls out with them he rarely offloads.

Has he kept on many players too long? Giggs and Scholes may get laughed at for being pensioners but Scholes IMO is playing better than he has done in the last couple of years and Giggs is still performing well. The defence is the biggest example, Pique aside, with the likes of Smalling and Jones playing frequently. He did the same with Evans IIRC when his first choices were out.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1646 on: March 2, 2012, 02:07:49 PM »
I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 

I think with Pique they had an embarrassment of riches Ferdinand and Vidic were a top drawer pairing and then they had Evans and Shawcross who were top quality young Centre backs who were exactly the same age as Pique. Pique was brought in as a Defensive midfield player who grew into the stature of a centre back.

Luckily for the rest of the League it was during that period of adjustment that the Bolton game came about. We have no embarrassment of riches and unless Kelly is switched inside then Coates has pretty much a free run as a young centre back at the Club. We need to trust in his ability and his character and not make the mistake of stalling his career.

He is way beyond the realms of reserve team football or being loaned out and needs to start getting game time otherwise we could end up damaging his development.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1647 on: March 2, 2012, 02:20:19 PM »
I think with Pique they had an embarrassment of riches Ferdinand and Vidic were a top drawer pairing and then they had Evans and Shawcross who were top quality young Centre backs who were exactly the same age as Pique. Pique was brought in as a Defensive midfield player who grew into the stature of a centre back.

Luckily for the rest of the League it was during that period of adjustment that the Bolton game came about. We have no embarrassment of riches and unless Kelly is switched inside then Coates has pretty much a free run as a young centre back at the Club. We need to trust in his ability and his character and not make the mistake of stalling his career.

He is way beyond the realms of reserve team football or being loaned out and needs to start getting game time otherwise we could end up damaging his development.


Problem is for Coates, we cannot drop Agger or Skrtel. They are both 27 i think, so what happens if they both play fantastic for the next 3 season say until they are 30?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1648 on: March 2, 2012, 02:27:28 PM »
It's got to ba Coates all day long.

Do we want to see the defensive line drop five to ten yards, see Skrtel move over to a side of the pitch he isn't truly comfortable on, and leave Johnson mindful of attacking a pretty suspect Arsenal left hand side for fear of leaving his centre back exposed?

Carragher was a great player - and there are still games where he can come in and do a job occassionally.  But, tomorrow isn't one of them.


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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1649 on: March 2, 2012, 02:37:49 PM »

Problem is for Coates, we cannot drop Agger or Skrtel. They are both 27 i think, so what happens if they both play fantastic for the next 3 season say until they are 30?

Why are Agger and Skrtel a problem for Coates? Every top club wants at least 3 viable first choice CBs, for competition if nothing else. The problem is whether he or Carragher is being considered the other one. The problem being that Carragher plainly isn't the future.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1650 on: March 2, 2012, 03:04:21 PM »
I think with Pique they had an embarrassment of riches Ferdinand and Vidic were a top drawer pairing and then they had Evans and Shawcross who were top quality young Centre backs who were exactly the same age as Pique. Pique was brought in as a Defensive midfield player who grew into the stature of a centre back.

Luckily for the rest of the League it was during that period of adjustment that the Bolton game came about. We have no embarrassment of riches and unless Kelly is switched inside then Coates has pretty much a free run as a young centre back at the Club. We need to trust in his ability and his character and not make the mistake of stalling his career.

He is way beyond the realms of reserve team football or being loaned out and needs to start getting game time otherwise we could end up damaging his development.

I'm not denying what you say here. But let's not get cacrried away by the idea that Ferguson is infallible. He made a stupid choice when he ditched Pique. He panicked. And he's already paid for it in two European Cup finals, thank god.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1651 on: March 2, 2012, 03:05:51 PM »
Has he kept on many players too long? Giggs and Scholes may get laughed at for being pensioners but Scholes IMO is playing better than he has done in the last couple of years and Giggs is still performing well. The defence is the biggest example, Pique aside, with the likes of Smalling and Jones playing frequently. He did the same with Evans IIRC when his first choices were out.
I don't believe he does keep them too long, they're still good players, not at the heights they were but can still do (more than) a job. That's what I was getting at. He keeps them around until they retire (Neville, Van deSar, Scholes already!). He doesn't offload when they're on the downward slope, this is more what Wenger used to do. Now they leave Arsenal in their prime.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2012, 03:11:30 PM by stevedo »

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1652 on: March 2, 2012, 03:10:08 PM »
I don't believe he does keep them too long, they're still good players, not at the heights they were but can still do (more than) a job. That's what I was getting at. He keeps them around until they retire (Neville, Van deSar, Scholes already!)

Oh ok, I misunderstood. What we should be doing is similar, if they're good enough. I don't think Carragher falls into that category.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1653 on: March 2, 2012, 03:15:01 PM »
I'm not denying what you say here. But let's not get cacrried away by the idea that Ferguson is infallible. He made a stupid choice when he ditched Pique. He panicked. And he's already paid for it in two European Cup finals, thank god.
My understanding of the situation is Ferguson wanted to keep him, but Queiroz persuaded him that he was surplus to requirements and that Evans was the better player.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1654 on: March 2, 2012, 03:17:10 PM »
My understanding of the situation is Ferguson wanted to keep him, but Queiroz persuaded him that he was surplus to requirements and that Evans was the better player.

Fly on the wall in the ole drunks office eh?

Can't believe for one moment that stubborn prick would allow his decision making to be determined by somebody else.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1655 on: March 2, 2012, 03:48:11 PM »
I'm not denying what you say here. But let's not get cacrried away by the idea that Ferguson is infallible. He made a stupid choice when he ditched Pique. He panicked. And he's already paid for it in two European Cup finals, thank god.

I don't think it's a case of fallibility Yorkie, I think the choice between Evans, Pique and Shawcross was a subjective call on which player would turn out to be the best long term player. With hindsight Ferguson thankfully got it horrendously wrong he quite clearly chose to give the game time to the wrong player.

What he didn't do though was not give the game time to any of the young up and coming players and that for me is a far bigger error. It is abundantly clear which of the two options for centre back against Arsenal has a chance of a long term future in the side and which players development is going to benefit from game time and it sure as hell isn't the fella from Bootle.

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1656 on: March 2, 2012, 03:50:03 PM »
Fly on the wall in the ole drunks office eh?

Can't believe for one moment that stubborn prick would allow his decision making to be determined by somebody else.
You say that, but then in recent times under Fergie their best seasons were when Carlos Q was assistant, so he must have been taking some stuff on board from Carlos.

Though Fergie also fucked up with Stam..so he's not always right..
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1657 on: March 2, 2012, 03:52:27 PM »
Stam was on steroids though, so Ferguson had his hand forced.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1658 on: March 2, 2012, 04:02:42 PM »
Stam was on steroids though, so Ferguson had his hand forced.

He didnt get banned for long though :P didnt Rio get a longer ban? :D
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1659 on: March 2, 2012, 04:10:16 PM »
I don't think it's a case of fallibility Yorkie, I think the choice between Evans, Pique and Shawcross was a subjective call on which player would turn out to be the best long term player. With hindsight Ferguson thankfully got it horrendously wrong he quite clearly chose to give the game time to the wrong player.

What he didn't do though was not give the game time to any of the young up and coming players and that for me is a far bigger error. It is abundantly clear which of the two options for centre back against Arsenal has a chance of a long term future in the side and which players development is going to benefit from game time and it sure as hell isn't the fella from Bootle.

Yes, Ferguson has always been willing to throw young players into big situations, it's true. Bob Paisley did this too.  I hope Kenny plays Seb Coates tomorrow for reasons which have been amply covered in many posts above. But I'm not expecting him to. Carragher is a mighty institution and - odd as it seems to say this - Kenny is not yet in a great position to administer the final blow. He's done a lot to reduce Carragher's prestige this season by putting him on the bench. But he'd be asking for an unnecessary battle right now if he promoted the claims of the new boy on the block over and above the gnarled old centre back in the fixture v Arsenal.

I'll be absolutely amazed if Coates starts. 

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1660 on: March 2, 2012, 04:30:03 PM »
all the discussion about Coates, Kenny's just as likely to pick Kelly with Carrra in centre mid and Shelvey at left back
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1661 on: March 2, 2012, 04:32:02 PM »
Yes, Ferguson has always been willing to throw young players into big situations, it's true. Bob Paisley did this too.  I hope Kenny plays Seb Coates tomorrow for reasons which have been amply covered in many posts above. But I'm not expecting him to. Carragher is a mighty institution and - odd as it seems to say this - Kenny is not yet in a great position to administer the final blow. He's done a lot to reduce Carragher's prestige this season by putting him on the bench. But he'd be asking for an unnecessary battle right now if he promoted the claims of the new boy on the block over and above the gnarled old centre back in the fixture v Arsenal.

I'll be absolutely amazed if Coates starts. 

So will I and it is a pretty sad indictment of modern football that managers have to worry about things other than picking the best 11.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1662 on: March 2, 2012, 04:38:01 PM »
I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 

I think the standard should be "is he good enough?" and not he is too young or on the other part of the scale "he's a copa winner"

From what we have seen so far Coates made too many mistakes when he played, Carra has been more solid. Hence, Carra should play.

May be next season Coates will gain more playing time.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1663 on: March 2, 2012, 04:48:02 PM »
Absolutely spot on Coates has far more experience than Phil Jones or Chris Smalling had when they arrived at Old Trafford yet Ferguson didn't think twice about playing Jones or Smalling.

Disagree, Phil Jones had played in the Premier League for two seasons, in the second in 25 games I think and in his second season he was superb. He was already a very good defender at Blackburn and was ready to walk into United's team. Jones has more experience at this level in this country than Coates and for me looks a top class player for years to come. If we had signed him in the summer I doubt very much we would have signed Coates and I also think Jones would be at least our third choice now and ahead of Carra because he is that good.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1664 on: March 2, 2012, 04:52:54 PM »
Disagree, Phil Jones had played in the Premier League for two seasons, in the second in 25 games I think and in his second season he was superb. He was already a very good defender at Blackburn and was ready to walk into United's team. Jones has more experience at this level in this country than Coates and for me looks a top class player for years to come. If we had signed him in the summer I doubt very much we would have signed Coates and I also think Jones would be at least our third choice now and ahead of Carra because he is that good.

Phil jones looks at a top class player to come, come on neil have you seen him at this season. Talent as he is, he is a diaster at centre back and his been this season for man united, positionally he is awful and he is pretty short so has a problem dealing with high balls which has been exposed a number of times this year. Only difference now is jones is under spot light compared to his blackburn days where he played a significant number of games in midfield or a back 5. Jones has been vastly overrated and theres a reason ferguson has moved him to right back and midfield.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1665 on: March 2, 2012, 04:57:21 PM »
Phil jones looks at a top class player to come, come on neil have you seen him at this season. Talent as he is, he is a diaster at centre back and his been this season for man united, positionally he is awful and he is pretty short so has a problem dealing with high balls which has been exposed a number of times this year. Only difference now is jones is under spot light compared to his blackburn days where he played a significant number of games in midfield or a back 5. Jones has been vastly overrated and theres a reason ferguson has moved him to right back and midfield.

Exactly.  Another overrated over-hyped English defender. Just like Cahill and Dann , players who were "clearly better" than Skrtel , who is supposed to be a "disaster waiting to happen".

Coates is a better prospect than Jones and not that far behind in his development curve.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1666 on: March 2, 2012, 04:59:23 PM »
Whoever said the likes of Cahill and Dann were clearly better than Skrtel?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1667 on: March 2, 2012, 05:02:12 PM »
Whoever said the likes of Cahill and Dann were clearly better than Skrtel?

Some of our more esteemed colleagues on RAWK.  I clearly remember having 'colorful' debates about the same in many a Skrtel/central defence topic.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1668 on: March 2, 2012, 05:08:18 PM »
Some of our more esteemed colleagues on RAWK.  I clearly remember having 'colorful' debates about the same in many a Skrtel/central defence topic.

Come on spit out those names... lets name and shame the best of them :)
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1669 on: March 2, 2012, 05:13:15 PM »
Disagree, Phil Jones had played in the Premier League for two seasons, in the second in 25 games I think and in his second season he was superb. He was already a very good defender at Blackburn and was ready to walk into United's team. Jones has more experience at this level in this country than Coates and for me looks a top class player for years to come. If we had signed him in the summer I doubt very much we would have signed Coates and I also think Jones would be at least our third choice now and ahead of Carra because he is that good.


Here is Phil Jones career before this season



and

Seb Coates career before this season



It is abundantly clear which player had the most experience the one who has been playing Top flight Uruguayan Football, had reached the semi final of the South American equivalent of the Champions League, had played in the U20 World Cup and the South American U20 Championship and the one who had won both the Copa America title and the Copa America best young player.

We need to start remembering which team reached the semi's of the World Cup and which Country is it's continents Champions.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Buzz Killington

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1670 on: March 2, 2012, 05:14:07 PM »
Funnily enough, in some cases the same few were banging on about Mata being flavour of the month.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1671 on: March 2, 2012, 05:15:00 PM »
Funnily enough, in some cases the same few were banging on about Mata being flavour of the month.
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Offline ArgImAPirate

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1672 on: March 2, 2012, 05:16:16 PM »
I think the standard should be "is he good enough?" and not he is too young or on the other part of the scale "he's a copa winner"

From what we have seen so far Coates made too many mistakes when he played, Carra has been more solid. Hence, Carra should play.

May be next season Coates will gain more playing time.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. I think Carragher has made more mistakes this season. Or at very least, has made the same number of mistakes. Coates has had some bad moments, but he's also had some brilliant moments. He's got pace, height, and youth on his side. Carragher's got experience and leadership ability. Both players provide something important.

I think it's close between a legend on his last legs and a young player with a promising CV looking to prove himself.

Offline Hazell

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1673 on: March 2, 2012, 05:17:24 PM »
Some of our more esteemed colleagues on RAWK.  I clearly remember having 'colorful' debates about the same in many a Skrtel/central defence topic.

Hmmm, strange. I know people thought he wasn't good enough but still.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1674 on: March 2, 2012, 05:19:55 PM »
Come on spit out those names... lets name and shame the best of them :)

I am meticulously searching my old posts to find those nuggets.  ;D

Hmmm, strange. I know people thought he wasn't good enough but still.

Oh yeah.  I got all kinds of grief for defending Skrtel and was called a fanboy and what not.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1675 on: March 2, 2012, 05:29:24 PM »
People seem to think that Coates is some inexperienced, weak minded player. He's a 2 time league winning player with Nacional, he won the Copa America with Uruguay, picking up best young player in the process. He has nearly 70 professional games and he has already shown that he has a great mentality by overcoming an absolute stinker against Stoke, into a great performance in the second half which, ironically enough, coincided with Carragher leaving the pitch.


Forget history, I may not have seen enough of Coates to claim that he's guaranteed to step up to the plate against Arsenal. But I've seen enough to think he warrants a fair shot at it, and I've seen enough of Carragher that I don't think he should be anywhere near the starting line-up. He slows down play, is terrible on the ball for a professional footballer, drags us deep onto the pitch and doesn't offer up an attacking threat in set pieces. And even if Coates makes mistakes, and I'm sure he will, worst case scenario it's a learning curve. Like we know he won't let a loose ball bounce like he did with Walters. If Carra does it, he won't take anything away from it. If they both start and make 3 mistakes leading to goals, at least 2-3 years down the line we can look back at that with Coates. Carra has already peaked and playing him is only delaying the inevitable

Just dawned on me why this is so familiar. Funny how this debate always pops up regarding Carragher. I could've sworn this same thing 

Quote from: Aristotle
How is it disrespectful? He has done wonderful things in the past. He's spent his entire career here. He's won everything possible, but the league title and his achievements with the club all deserve to be remembered. But how is he different to all of our other great players who were all shown the door without hesitation when the time came, with many of them winning significantly more at the club.
Emlyn Hughes made way for Hansen as you have stated yourself, and there's not a single person in the world who will say that was the wrong decision, yet you have no problem claiming that Coates isn't anywhere near Hansen's ability despite having seen him play a grand total of 2 games for the club. Emlyn Hughes was a European Cup and league winning captain, who also captained England. He had over 600 games with the club and he was replaced by an 18 year old center back from the lower divisions.

Coates is already a league winning player, who most recently picked up a Copa America winners medal and in the mean time picked up the award for best young players and that's hardly a small thing, considering the wealth of talent that South-America has prodoced constantly since the the 1920's.
Hughes was replaced by a much younger, inexperienced player. Despite being more than 3 years younger at the time than Carragher is now. Carra is getting older and his performances have shown with an alarming frequency that his body can't handle playing week in week out. It's biologically inevitable and despite many claiming it, Carragher is not in the league of the Baresis, Maldinis, Nestas of the game in the way that he can play every game into his late 30's without breaking a sweat.
His game has never been about that. He'll take a bullet for you, and deserves credit for that. But his game is more sliding tackles and clearing off the line, playing with cramps in every muscle in his legs whilst preventing a shot. It's never been about seeing the play in front of him and intercepting a pass by making 2-3 side steps or winning the ball in his own box and running the length of the pitch into the opposition's box.

And why is it so dangerous replacing Carragher? We're dropping points with him in the team, we might drop a few more or we might gain a few more we'll never know until we actually do it. And as Yorky said earlier about Hansen.
Quote from: Yorkykopite
So you'll remember his first season in Liverpool colours? I loved him from the off, but only his Mum would say he didn't make some howlers. I mean real howlers - the Man City and Man Utd away games in the first few weeks of Hansen's career remain lodged in my memory. Yours too, since you're a professional. But you know better than me that we stuck with him and saw him grow and were rewarded at the end of the season by being crowned European Champions. Why did we stick with him despite those head-in-hands moments? Because it was evident to everyone that the lad's all-round game was full of potential and that once he became more battle-worn we'd have a serious player on our hands.

Quote from: Aristotle
At what point do Carragher's achievement stop covering for his current performances. We got rid of a 19 year old center back in Daniel Ayala who didn't make half the mistakes Carra has been making in the last 2 seasons. Sentiments and past achievements be damned. Do you honestly, deep down in the very deepest core of your soul, think that a 33 year old Jamie Carragher would start 90% of games for any other team hoping to challenge for trophies around Europe?

Had happened before.

Quote from: Aristotle
I agree with that, up to a certain point and have on many occasions talked about how the squad has lacked a winning mentality. And I have no doubt that being part of a squad that just won the European Cup and had the phenomenal players that it had is easily preferable to coming into squad that has 7 new players and about 15 that left.

But I think that it's more important to the new players to have some sort of future line-up in mind. We're having the new players like Adam, Downing and Henderson adapting to a back 4 that will not be the same next season. Charlie Adam for example would no doubt benefit significantly from starting every chance we get 5-10 yards further up the pitch because the center back brings the ball to him, instead of having to come deep to collect it. I think it's more important now than it was 2-3 seasons ago since we have such a new squad to have some sort of foundations, whether it be Skrtel, Coates or a new center back for that matter. Reina will be in goal, Enrique at left back but what else can we take for granted? An aging Carra, injury prone Agger, inconsistent Skrtel and then Kelly and Johnson who can't stay fit. Which is why I'm advocating putting Coates in who, if nothing else, gives us a height advantage.

In response to someone saying Carra should start ahead of Coates
Quote from: Aristotle
I said that his game was about sliding tackles and back-to-the-wall defending. Which, thanks to Rafa Benitez, made him a starting CB in 2 Champions League Finals. Before that he was a makeshift fullback, holding midfielder and a stop gap for everything that needed. His short comings were glossed over by a phenomenal midfield that consisted amongst others of Mascherano and Sissoko who provided excellent cover for the back 4, whilst Xabi Alonso dropped down and reliefed Carra of the pain of playing the ball.
And it's no secret that some people's opinion of Carragher gets a certain romantic feel due to unforgettable moments like his defending in Istanbul. Again, a phenomenal achievement that no one can or is even trying to take away from him. I'm simply saying that in anyway criticizing Carrgher you get bombarded with endless accounts of Carra's heroic acts in a red shirt, which for whatever reason seem to dwarf the likes of Emlyn Hughes, Phil Neal, Phil Thompson et al who all did wonderful things for the club.

And do please highlight where I said Coates was going to save us from all evil. I simply stated that he has done enough to at least warrant a chance of failing or succeeding.
Do you honestly believe that? So is it a myth that we're losing points, and he's scoring own goals and giving away penalties? So you don't think it's a worrying sign that a man who once upon a time terrorised Shevchenko is now turned by such powerhouse strikers as Jon Walters.

Take for example arguably the best 30+ defender out there, Alessandro Nesta. He was faced one-on-one with Lionel Messi inside his own box and inside 5 seconds he slid in, won the ball, stood up and had passed the ball to the full back when was the last time Carragher did anything close to that. Let alone against someonen in Messi's range of quality. An unfair comparison, I will admit that much as they were two seperate occasions that can not possibly be compared. But to explain my reasoning for doing so. Turn the tables and make it Carra vs. Messi and Nesta vs. Walters and ask a 100 people. Who do you think they'll put money on to come away with the ball?

On the topic of Carragher being a proven winner and that Coates can't handle the PL.
Quote from: Arisotle
I'm pretty sure that people know that there's a difference between the Uruguayan league and the PL. Also I feel confident that if Coates can cope against the likes of Alexis Sanchez he can cope with someone like Peter Crouch. And I mean Chile play high-pressing football, on both a more intense level and with much better players than your average PL side.

On wanting someone other than Carragher is disrespectful and that Benitez and Kenny both picked him and Capello took him to the World Cup.
Quote from: Aristotle
Never said Carra was never a good player, but now he's seriously pushing it. Using England's World Cup squad to back up your arguement won't win many people over as the same squad also had Matthew Upson, Gareth Barry, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Shuan Wright-Phillips, Emile Heskey and Stephen Warnock.

And if Hyypia had signed a new contract, Agger had stayed fit, Rafa gotten more than 1.5m to buy a new center back, San Jose not been shown the door and Skrtel showed more consistency Carra might have been moved on already.

And this will be controversial no doubt, and I'll probably bring on a hailstorm of abuse for it, but does anyone honestly believe that if Carra had been a Liverpool player in the late 70's or the 80's he would have anywhere near 700 appearances for the club?

On the topic of Carragher being too old to play and the sentiments of playing him.
Quote from: Aristotle
I don't know more than the managers, but that doesn't mean I can't question them. You claim with absolute certainty that because they picked him, and are fantastic managers, thusly he is as good as the Maldinis and Baresis of this world. If that works for you, who am I to question it.

33 does not make him an old man. But in terms of great Liverpool defenders it makes him one. Emlyn Hughes, European Cup and League winning captain - 30 when he left LFC. Alan Hansen, possibly our greatest ever CB - 34 when he left Liverpool. Phil Neal's accomplishments don't need to be counted - 34 when he left the club. Tommy Smith - 33 when he played his last game. Phil Thompson - 29 years old when he left. Sami Hyypia - 36 but by then he was used in rotation and despite featuring in important games didn't make 10 games in his last season. Ron Yeats - 34 when he left. Mark Lawrenson - 32 when he left.

All of those were replaced because they had reached that age. All of them are legends at the club with a medal collection envied by all. Do you not think we should be doing the same to Carragher, since we did so to all of them?


I can't quote locked threads so this is the best I could do. But I'd love to have someone tell me that these opinions, made 5 months ago are bandwagon jumping and doing the "popular thing" in "attacking" Carragher. And I said all of this before we saw the true potential of the Skrtel-Agger partnership mind you
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Offline sidlfc90

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1676 on: March 2, 2012, 05:32:02 PM »
Coates needs more first team football, unfortunatly i cant see him getting that this season with with all our remaining games needing a win and we need the experience at the back now agger is injured. Hope he gets his chance though he does look promising in the games he has played

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1677 on: March 2, 2012, 05:32:30 PM »
Paletta signed for Liverpool at 20 years of age, having made 43 appearances for Banfield in the argentine primera divison, the club was believed to have paid a fee of ₤1 Million. When Banfield qualified for the knockout stages of the Copa Libertadores, they altered their 25 man squad for the event to include Paletta and immediately threw him into action against the Colombian team Independiente Medellín. Paletta played well and Banfield progressed, but Paletta was to play no further part in the tournament after being called up to the Argentina Under-20 team to participate in the 2005 FIFA World Youth Championship.

Paletta started in all seven games of the tournament, playing in the heart of the Argentine defence, alongside Lionel Messi and Sergio Agüero. Argentina went on to win the tournament and Paletta's performances attracted the attention of Liverpool.

yep with all of Coates's experience he's a nailed on starter...........

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Offline Aristotle

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1678 on: March 2, 2012, 05:42:23 PM »
Paletta signed for Liverpool at 20 years of age, having made 43 appearances for Banfield in the argentine primera divison, the club was believed to have paid a fee of ₤1 Million. When Banfield qualified for the knockout stages of the Copa Libertadores, they altered their 25 man squad for the event to include Paletta and immediately threw him into action against the Colombian team Independiente Medellín. Paletta played well and Banfield progressed, but Paletta was to play no further part in the tournament after being called up to the Argentina Under-20 team to participate in the 2005 FIFA World Youth Championship.

Paletta started in all seven games of the tournament, playing in the heart of the Argentine defence, alongside Lionel Messi and Sergio Agüero. Argentina went on to win the tournament and Paletta's performances attracted the attention of Liverpool.

yep with all of Coates's experience he's a nailed on starter...........

Am I being a bit thick here or are you comparing displacing the 06/07 Carragher-Hyypia partnership plus the newly signed Daniel Agger with replacing Carragher today and the Copa America with the FIFA youth championship? ???
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1679 on: March 2, 2012, 05:44:50 PM »
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. I think Carragher has made more mistakes this season. Or at very least, has made the same number of mistakes. Coates has had some bad moments, but he's also had some brilliant moments. He's got pace, height, and youth on his side. Carragher's got experience and leadership ability. Both players provide something important.

I think it's close between a legend on his last legs and a young player with a promising CV looking to prove himself.

I know Emlyn Hughes has won the European Cup and is a legend and all, but I like the look of this Alan Hansen kid.
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