Topic: King Kenny's preferred formation and tactics (*)

[Roy of the rovers]

I suspect a lot of this historical analysis of formations is irrelvant. My guess is that Clarke is mostly taking the lead on this stuff

Kenny's main objectives seem to be: motivation and confidence, style of play (pass and move) and squad assessment (ie. entrances and exits)

[Festy]

I suspect a lot of this historical analysis of formations is irrelvant. My guess is that Clarke is mostly taking the lead on this stuff

Steve Clarke was NOT working with King Kenny in 90s when the King used to play 3 at the back for some specific games.

[Roy of the rovers]

Hmmmmmm....This is mouth-watering!

--------------Reina----------------
Kelly----Skrtel----Agger-----Johnson
----------Lucas------Adam-------------
----SG-------Suarez------Meireles----
--------------Carroll---------------------

Yes it is. Though I'm increasingly interested in 3-at the back with Agger as a ball carrying libero. It gives us width, which we need with Caroll, and allows us to use our best midfielders in the box-box/carrilero role (Gerrard, Raul, Lucas) to which they are most suited. E.g.:

Reina
Carra Skrtel Agger
Johnson                  Aurelio
Gerrard Lucas Raul
Suarez
Carroll

Obviously it's horses for courses. But, having Agger able to push up into the midfield against a single striker is a useful. I can't see how we're going to get the width this season without wingbacks.

Longer term, it's tricky to see how we'll organise

Back five
3CMs
Winger         2nd striker
Carroll?

Can't see Maxi, Cole, Jovanovic getting much game time in that formation, though Kuyt will still be useful in the front two positions

[Fuzion6]

Yes it is. Though I'm increasingly interested in 3-at the back with Agger as a ball carrying libero. It gives us width, which we need with Caroll, and allows us to use our best midfielders in the box-box/carrilero role (Gerrard, Raul, Lucas) to which they are most suited. E.g.:

Reina
Carra Skrtel Agger
Johnson                  Aurelio
Gerrard Lucas Raul
Suarez
Carroll

Obviously it's horses for courses. But, having Agger able to push up into the midfield against a single striker is a useful. I can't see how we're going to get the width this season without wingbacks.

Longer term, it's tricky to see how we'll organise

Back five
3CMs
Winger         2nd striker
Carroll?

Can't see Maxi, Cole, Jovanovic getting much game time in that formation, though Kuyt will still be useful in the front two positions

Having Kelly in the RCB role would be very interesting. If opponent is playing 2 up top then stick with the formation you suggest, if they move to 1 up front or 3, then switch to a 4-3-3 with Kelly moving to RB, Aurellio/new player moving to LB and Johnson advancing to the right wing forward role (or even right mid role and moving Gerrard up). That kind of on field flexibility would be lovely...

[Vidocq]

we have perfect players for 3-3-3-1

its winning formation...maybe we dont even need new CB

[steveeastend]

You can call me crazy but I think Marco Arnautovic from Werder Bremen would be a great addition. Not too expensive and very talented. Very good reading of the game and passing, quick and strong. He has everything.

[sinnermichael]

Going forward under Kenny it'll be interesting to see whether we play with an out and out defensive midfielder or not. Now that we're looking to use possession and keep it for long periods, do we need a player in the team whose sole role is to win back the ball and pass it short like Mascherano? Lucas seems to be doing fine in his job acting as a kind of deep-lying playmaker (albeit nowhere near Xabi's level - but who is) and also helping out a lot defensively.

[CaptainRaj]

Going forward under Kenny it'll be interesting to see whether we play with an out and out defensive midfielder or not. Now that we're looking to use possession and keep it for long periods, do we need a player in the team whose sole role is to win back the ball and pass it short like Mascherano? Lucas seems to be doing fine in his job acting as a kind of deep-lying playmaker (albeit nowhere near Xabi's level - but who is) and also helping out a lot defensively.

I think the "holding" role or defensive midfielder is vital to success.  Liverpool had that in Souness (although he was a complete midfielder - could defend, attack, lead and break legs!!) and how important was he!!!  Personally and in my opinion, we should play, for the remainder of this season:


              Reina
   
              Carra

       Skrtel            Agger

Kelly              Lucas         Johnson

      Gerrard      Raul

              Suarez      
   
              Carroll   

I understand that Kenny is only likely to play 3 at the back away from home and against physically strong teams, but I really like this setup. 

[lfcls7]

i was debating with dad. what team would win if these two played each other

RAFA XI 2009 vs KENNY XI 2011

  2009 -       
           Reina

Arbeloa    Carragher     Skrtel        Aurelio

          Alonso           Mascherano

Kuyt           Gerrard                   Riera

                 Torres

 2011 -

                       Reina

          Skrtel     Carragher     Agger


Kelly                Lucas                  Johnson

                  Gerrard      Meireles

                      Suarez

                    Carroll.

[CaptainRaj]

I would use the remainder of this season to provide valuable experience for Kelly then move him into the RCB and shift Skrtel along and have Agger playing a similar role to Lothar Matthäus or Matthias Sammer... Move Johnson back to the right hand side and fill the void at left wing back...

We also need to look for Gerrards replacement, be that Spearing (He really deserves a good chance to prove himself.  IMO, he has the potential to be our future captain) or Charlie Adam.

Other than Carra and Gerrard, we have a team that could stay settled for the next 5 years...

[scatman]

Not consistently. When using the 4141 shape (i.e. Lucas/Meireles/Gerrard rather than any combination including Poulsen) he's been pretty much in the same 'band' as Gerrard. There have been plenty of casual, misplaced passes (some simple sideways flicks and so on) in deeper positions. In the 3412 against Stoke, he was again in the same 'band' as Gerrard. In the diamond against Chelsea he was at the tip - but my point (which you have overlooked) is why Dalglish would play Meireles in more attacking role than Maxi Rodriguez; perhaps, because he has some concerns about his passing completion and yes, about his tackling ability. Is Maxi a tough tackling midfielder, or especially mobile? Certainly not. But he is tidier in possession than Meireles. That might be a small concern moving forwards.

That's a great post, because I watched Raul yesterday for Portugal, he was playing deeper than he does for us. He missed a lot of tackles, gave away quite a few fouls, was everywhere for them but his passing wasnt that great either. One thing he has in abundance is energy it seems, fucker was everywhere! Really got under the skin of the Argies.

[Flipmode]

I suspect a lot of this historical analysis of formations is irrelvant. My guess is that Clarke is mostly taking the lead on this stuff

Kenny's main objectives seem to be: motivation and confidence, style of play (pass and move) and squad assessment (ie. entrances and exits)

This Exactly!

[Michigan Red]

You guys think we'll stick with this back five formation even into next year? It works for now because we lack a true winger, but I think next year we'll have to run 4 at the back. I guess if it keeps working we'd have to, don't fix what isn't broke as the saying goes.

[redmeanmachine]

Not sure if it has been posted before, but this is excellent article and very relevant to this thread.
http://www.holdingmidfield.com/?p=191

[pajodublin]

Not sure if it has been posted before, but this is excellent article and very relevant to this thread.
http://www.holdingmidfield.com/?p=191

thanks for that. good read

[farawayred]

Not sure if it has been posted before, but this is excellent article and very relevant to this thread.
http://www.holdingmidfield.com/?p=191

Very nice read, thanks! But it's interesting to see that with the acquisition of Suarez and Carroll and the sale of Torres and Babel some of the questions on setting up the team have been eliminated. It's gonna be more straightforward when all players are fit.

[bigbear]

You guys think we'll stick with this back five formation even into next year? It works for now because we lack a true winger, but I think next year we'll have to run 4 at the back. I guess if it keeps working we'd have to, don't fix what isn't broke as the saying goes.

I think Kenny will mix and match it.

You are right in that it works now because it is a solution to our lack of wide players at present, but I think it's also a formation Kenny likes in any event. Certainly in games where sides are more direct it is a good option because it allows the slow aerial centre half to play.

I don't think we'll play it on Saturday at home against a 4-3-3 system.

[reidy125]

I'm not sure this has been picked up on already but Kenny has really introduced a trump card into our game. By bringing in the 3-2-4-1 that we have played in the last two games and having the 4-5-1 up our sleeves, teams really don't know how to set up against us. So much about the game these days is about nullifying the opponent but under Kenny, the opposition cannot do this, which I think played a big part in the victory over Chelsea. With the 3-2-4-1 formation the 3 progressive centre backs actually end up working as full backs when we are attacking on their side of the pitch. When Reina got the ball against Stoke and Chelsea, Skrtel and Agger created width from the back and left Carra/Kyri in the middle. Johnson and Kelly then created the width and Meireles and the other AM ran their ass off to create space. In defence, the 3 CBs came narrow, the wing backs played as full backs and the CMs closed down any space in the middle of the park, hence 3 clean sheets in a row.


Team against Chelsea

                          Reina

        Skrtel         Carra         Agger
Kelly                                          Johnson
                          Lucas         
   Gerrard                             Maxi
                        Meireles

                          Kuyt

I haven't seen this formation played in this way by any other team or manager. With Carroll and Suarez we have the perfect players for this formation. Carroll plays up top with Suarez replacing Maxi. But the key is that progressive back 5, as long as they concentrate all game, know their role and do their job, we have half the battle won.

The future looks good, I really believe next season will be the best since we came second and could even better that.

COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[redmark]

You guys think we'll stick with this back five formation even into next year? It works for now because we lack a true winger, but I think next year we'll have to run 4 at the back. I guess if it keeps working we'd have to, don't fix what isn't broke as the saying goes.

As Bigbear says, I don't think we'll "stick with it" as far as Saturday. I think it will be used on fairly rare, specific occasions as a 'surprise' tactic. Three at the back has flaws; if we were to play it regularly, teams would 'remember' or 're-learn' those flaws, and take advantage.

[leonard1987]

i was debating with dad. what team would win if these two played each other

RAFA XI 2009 vs KENNY XI 2011

  2009 -       
           Reina

Arbeloa    Carragher     Skrtel        Aurelio

          Alonso           Mascherano

Kuyt           Gerrard                   Riera

                 Torres

 2011 -

                       Reina

          Skrtel     Carragher     Agger


Kelly                Lucas                  Johnson

                  Gerrard      Meireles

                      Suarez

                    Carroll.

0-0 i thinkz

[redmark]

Not sure if it has been posted before, but this is excellent article and very relevant to this thread.
http://www.holdingmidfield.com/?p=191

Was that written by Yorkykopite?

Considering when it was written, it could have been lifted from any number of posts on RAWK. However, it's been superceded by the more unorthodox or surprising actual formations used by Dalglish since then; and my own earliest posts on Dalglish's preference for an assymetrical 4411 are equally obsolete.

[Jellies]

i was debating with dad. what team would win if these two played each other

RAFA XI 2009 vs KENNY XI 2011

Difficult to say as Kenny has only been here for a month, Carroll hasn't played yet and Suarez only has played half an hour.

[owens_2k]

Rafas team would win.

[Michigan Red]

As Bigbear says, I don't think we'll "stick with it" as far as Saturday. I think it will be used on fairly rare, specific occasions as a 'surprise' tactic. Three at the back has flaws; if we were to play it regularly, teams would 'remember' or 're-learn' those flaws, and take advantage.

Yeah it definitely does and I was really surprised to read Ancellotti had no idea it was coming. I don't think it'll last forever either but it is nice to know we can be successful with it and use it to shut down a team like Chelsea. Although to be honest, we could've played any formation and I think we win that match or at least get a draw. No way the squad was going to let Torres on up them, especially in his first match.

[bigbear]

Yeah it definitely does and I was really surprised to read Ancellotti had no idea it was coming. I don't think it'll last forever either but it is nice to know we can be successful with it and use it to shut down a team like Chelsea. Although to be honest, we could've played any formation and I think we win that match or at least get a draw. No way the squad was going to let Torres on up them, especially in his first match.

Ancellotti's response was bewildering. The 3 at the back was all over these boards on the Tuesday and went public v Stoke on the Wednesday. If he didn't plan for it coming he didn't do his job.

All he needed to do after 10 minutes was shift Anelka wide right and Torres wide left just for 5 minutes to see how we would react but they just ploughed the same un-fertile furrow until we scored.

I was very surprised by him.

[Ambrosia]

Ancellotti's response was bewildering. The 3 at the back was all over these boards on the Tuesday and went public v Stoke on the Wednesday. If he didn't plan for it coming he didn't do his job.

All he needed to do after 10 minutes was shift Anelka wide right and Torres wide left just for 5 minutes to see how we would react but they just ploughed the same un-fertile furrow until we scored.

I was very surprised by him.

Why?

Ancellotti's always been a little slow tactically. Which is why he lost a CL final when 3-0 up and why he only won 1 Serie A title, despite managing a world class team.

[Scarlet`]

Not to mention Ancelotti's been slow to react to our change of formation at Istanbul

[bigbear]

Why?

Ancellotti's always been a little slow tactically. Which is why he lost a CL final when 3-0 up and why he only won 1 Serie A title, despite managing a world class team.

because this change was so easy to make on Sunday and was so obvious.

In Istanbul he could have justifiably(wrongly as it happened) believed that his formation was fine and that his side just had to play their game to win.

Milan got back into the game after a shaky 15 mins and could have won it so tactically maybe he got it right but just didn't get a lucky break. On Sunday he was wrong from start to finish.

[Fordy]

Ancellotti's response was bewildering. The 3 at the back was all over these boards on the Tuesday and went public v Stoke on the Wednesday. If he didn't plan for it coming he didn't do his job.

All he needed to do after 10 minutes was shift Anelka wide right and Torres wide left just for 5 minutes to see how we would react but they just ploughed the same un-fertile furrow until we scored.

I was very surprised by him.

I wasnt mate as I dont think Torres was his signing(could be totally wrong) and it was a case of see what you have brought here? Its a problem that we really dont need. Now lets see how you want this deam partnership to work.

[bigbear]

I wasnt mate as I dont think Torres was his signing(could be totally wrong) and it was a case of see what you have brought here? Its a problem that we really dont need. Now lets see how you want this deam partnership to work.

Perhaps.

There may also have been a bit of ego massaging there ie he knew he needed one of Drogba/Torres to play wide but didn't want to make the call.

[Fordy]

Perhaps.

There may also have been a bit of ego massaging there ie he knew he needed one of Drogba/Torres to play wide but didn't want to make the call.

Yeah mate that also.

Didnt Lampard also looked a shadow of himself in that formation. I think they're big problems at chelsea myself.

Think they will have all eyes on the CL now and hopefully they will slip up in the league and we can overtake them

[bigbear]

Yeah mate that also.

Didnt Lampard also looked a shadow of himself in that formation. I think they're big problems at chelsea myself.

Think they will have all eyes on the CL now and hopefully they will slip up in the league and we can overtake them

Lampard doesn't look quite fit yet and that position on the side of the diamond requires a bit more legwork defensively.

He is best suited hitting the edge of the box from central areas off one striker or at the front of their diamond.

Chelsea are really pitching for the short term at present and if that doesn't work they are in big trouble.

[farawayred]

I have the feeling that playing a diamond MF requires a lot of training and proper personnel. It seems very difficult to execute with discipline. Chelsea tried it before (last year, was it?) and lost games with it. I don't really understand why it has such limited success.

[GrkStav]

I would use the remainder of this season to provide valuable experience for Kelly then move him into the RCB and shift Skrtel along and have Agger playing a similar role to Lothar Matthäus or Matthias Sammer... Move Johnson back to the right hand side and fill the void at left wing back...

We also need to look for Gerrards replacement, be that Spearing (He really deserves a good chance to prove himself.  IMO, he has the potential to be our future captain) or Charlie Adam.

Other than Carra and Gerrard, we have a team that could stay settled for the next 5 years...

You cannot possibly be seriously contemplating Spearing as Gerrard's replacement. I am all for supporting the lad but . . . seriously?

[GrkStav]

I think Lucas has a lot ot offer in the play making stakes as well. Only time will tell if he gets the chance to deliver. I remember when he setup Yossi for his goal against Athlectico. That ball was sublime and I do believe Lucas has an eye for a pass which will be needed when playing against teams who park the bus.

In Brazil's game v France yesterday, Lucas moved from deepest lying midfielder (closest to the CBs) to further up the pitch after Sandro was brought in. I don't understand Portuguese but the feed I was watching the game on featured quite a bit of sound emanating from the Brazilian bench. I don't think it was my imagination that after a series of loud instructions, Lucas moved more aggressively closer to the front and provided some extremely useful penultimate passes for possible goal-scoring opportunities. Lucas doesn't have the explosive, well, awesomeness that can be Gerrard, the energizer-bunny energy of Meireles, and the long-distance shot of both of them but he's is definitively better than Meireles in providing the assist or near assist, or simply making the right pass (both in terms of selection of recipient AND in terms of direction and directness).

I hope MilanKakaBaros will produce one of his usual videos for Lucas v France soon so I can confirm my impressions (or disconfirm them, obviously).

[Gifted Right Foot]

i know he has been linked with united thanks to anderson that twat but i would love for us to sign hulk next season...

imagine this as our attacking three:

suarez           hulk
          carroll

[redmark]

I have the feeling that playing a diamond MF requires a lot of training and proper personnel. It seems very difficult to execute with discipline. Chelsea tried it before (last year, was it?) and lost games with it. I don't really understand why it has such limited success.

It has the same main weakness (IMO) as 3-at-the-back: the concession of midfield width. Crucially, what matters in many ways isn't attacking width (which is what generally gets discussed, down to how a 'typical' move might be constructed) but defensive width. All of the most successful variants of 4xx systems retain two banks of four when not in possession. They may 'add' to the two banks of four, with an extra central midfielder (e.g. 4231 or 4141) - but they don't reduce the 'side' positions down to two. Winning the central midfield battle is important, but if you do so by conceding the flanks, you just make it simple for the opposition to play around you. In most 442/4231/even 433 (4141 defensively) systems, you have two 'wide' midfielders dropping into position. They don't have to be great defensively, just having a body in place is half the battle, to suppress the opposition fullbacks and prevent doubling up on the overlap. If the diamond has to stretch to combat opposition width advantage, it's not a compact diamond with everyone positioned to make nice, short triangles anymore and loses much of it's benefit.

[redmark]

Lampard doesn't look quite fit yet and that position on the side of the diamond requires a bit more legwork defensively.

He is best suited hitting the edge of the box from central areas off one striker or at the front of their diamond.

Chelsea are really pitching for the short term at present and if that doesn't work they are in big trouble.

When they've experimented with the diamond before, the consensus amongst Chelsea fans (meh) is that Lampard isn't suited at the 'tip' and needs to start deeper, making late runs. But that requires him to be at his physical peak. Gerrard vs Lampard have been compared in the media for years, but I think Gerrard has greater adaptability potential as his legs start to go.

[redmark]

This came up (from VdM, or someone else?) quite a few pages back, but a lot of the attacking benefits of 3-at-the-back can be gained from the 4141>433 system; perhaps it should be thought of almost as 4141>343. Very Barca-esque...

A couple of relevant articles:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/sep/22/football-tactics-trends


On the following images, I've "bought" Coentrao, shifted Johnson to RB and Kelly to CB. The idea being we buy one player, upgrade to two top-class attacking fullbacks and get a second ball-playing CB, all in one change. I haven't replaced Kuyt, who may be in the obvious next 'upgrade' position over the summer.

The images are 'static', basic setup illustrations: I did start to play with possible movement and interchanging within the system, but it's an almost infinite mess of arrows...

The without-the-ball 4141 setup:


The transitional attacking phase:


The 'camped out in the opposition half' attacking phase:

[Discipline]

i was debating with dad. what team would win if these two played each other

RAFA XI 2009 vs KENNY XI 2011

  2009 -       
           Reina

Arbeloa    Carragher     Skrtel        Aurelio

          Alonso           Mascherano

Kuyt           Gerrard                   Riera

                 Torres

 2011 -

                       Reina

          Skrtel     Carragher     Agger


Kelly                Lucas                  Johnson

                  Gerrard      Meireles

                      Suarez

                    Carroll.

Kenny's.