Topic: Future Of David Ngog?

[Cpt_Reina]

One of the dildoheads, I forget which, has already written off Martin Kelly.

Really does make me despair that people are unwilling to be a bit more patient with players, especially young players. Insua is case and point as youve said. Comes in to a struggling team where no one is playing well and despite years of looking like a top prospect and progressing very well he is labelled as shite by a lot of 'supporters' because he comes in and isnt immediately as good as Maldini. Never mind his crossing ability, work rate, tackling ability that he'd show for years in the reserves and at times in the 1st team. Get skinned a few times or out paced and you're shot. Poor sod.

[Sangria]

Really does make me despair that people are unwilling to be a bit more patient with players, especially young players. Insua is case and point as youve said. Comes in to a struggling team where no one is playing well and despite years of looking like a top prospect and progressing very well he is labelled as shite by a lot of 'supporters' because he comes in and isnt immediately as good as Maldini. Never mind his crossing ability, work rate, tackling ability that he'd show for years in the reserves and at times in the 1st team. Get skinned a few times or out paced and you're shot. Poor sod.

While it irks me, I'd say that's just lack of support, and not what really annoys me. What I hate the most, is idiotic decisionmaking. It's OK to be wrong. It's not OK to be stupid. The line of argument that dismisses someone as not good enough, get rid, without looking at the consequences of getting rid, is stupid. In its most extreme form, it resulted in the club having no senior LBs.

[Daintstar]

There's an article about the internet where Rafa stated Ngog was for the next few years. He's proved he can score even against the best of teams, Man Utd, Arsenal as a few. If he was to play in the Premiership week in week out for say a certain W.B.A or Blackpool then his game would dramatically improve. I remember Arsenal chasing him a few year ago, before we signed him but failed. He's bright, he's energetic, he needs backing. Remember he's young.

[Cpt_Reina]

While it irks me, I'd say that's just lack of support, and not what really annoys me. What I hate the most, is idiotic decisionmaking. It's OK to be wrong. It's not OK to be stupid. The line of argument that dismisses someone as not good enough, get rid, without looking at the consequences of getting rid, is stupid. In its most extreme form, it resulted in the club having no senior LBs.

Very true, theres a context to every decision that needs to be made. As you say with Insua, we were left with no senior left back, as well as alienating and loosing (hopefully only for a season) 1 of the top prospects in that position in the world.

As I see it the context in which Ngogs place in the squad that needs to be looked at is that he's 3rd possibly 4th choice, no longer expected to carry our attacking play as a lone striker when someone's injured. He's already here, so no transfer fee needed meaning we can invest in other areas of the pitch that most urgently need it. He's not on a high wage. He's willing to accept his place in the pecking order and wait for his chance to move up it, any replacement would more than likely want to go straight in the 1st team and therefore create a problem given we've just spent 57m on Carroll and Suarez. He's young enough to improve further still. Hes shown he can score goals, and all different types of goals at that. For those reasons, given the context surrounding Ngog and his place in the team I cant see any reason to ship him out.

[kopblooded]

I have lots of time for this lad! He will  improve as Lucas has improved coming here since the last 2 -3 years.!

[Butter Keks]

We have nothing to gain from selling Ngog in the summer for a small fee seeing as he still has the time to improve. The best bet is to send him out on Loan and then reassess the situation when he's 23 (end of next season) and had some experience of being a regular. We've been pretty shite at supporting the attack for a lot of this season hence only 12 goals scored away from Anfield so it's not really the best time to be comparing him against other young strikers in different teams.

[BobbyDavro]

Really does make me despair that people are unwilling to be a bit more patient with players, especially young players. Insua is case and point as youve said. Comes in to a struggling team where no one is playing well and despite years of looking like a top prospect and progressing very well he is labelled as shite by a lot of 'supporters' because he comes in and isnt immediately as good as Maldini. Never mind his crossing ability, work rate, tackling ability that he'd show for years in the reserves and at times in the 1st team. Get skinned a few times or out paced and you're shot. Poor sod.

It bothers me that we only talk in extremes.
If you think Ngog isn't good enough, then you're obviously an idiot, a knee-jerking reactionary who isn't a proper supporter and hasn't got the wit and intelligence to judge things properly.

I think Ngog isn't good enough.
I didn't think Insua was good enough.
I think that because neither of them look accomplished on the ball, and neither have anything in their locker that is stand-out.

Insua's positional problems were well known, but positional sense can be taught.  Decision making can be improved, but is more of an innate skill.  At the other end of the scale things like pace can't be taught or improved at all, and are either there or not.
Insua isn't fast enough to be a top left-back in the modern game.  His tackling is ok, he has a good motor on him, he has a decent cross and his attitude is superb.  A Dirk Kuyt of a left-back, if you will.  Is he shite?  No, course not.  But he's not at the level to which I aspire.

Similarly Ngog.  He's a decent striker, good finish on him, but he doesn't have a lot of pace, has no strength on the ball, distinctly average ability in the air and his not technically a tricky player who'll take people on with skill.
He's alright.  As a 4th choice striker there's nothing wrong with him, but he's not top class and never will be top class.  There's simply too much missing from his game that can't be taught.  There's no reason to get rid at all, unless he wants to leave.  But lets not make out he's got it in him to be a great striker and anyone who says otherwise isn't a proper supporter - because that's just bollocks.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

I remember Arsenal chasing him a few year ago, before we signed him but failed.

Oh really...care to show us some proof of this 'interest'...?

It bothers me that we only talk in extremes.
If you think Ngog isn't good enough, then you're obviously an idiot, a knee-jerking reactionary who isn't a proper supporter and hasn't got the wit and intelligence to judge things properly.

I think Ngog isn't good enough.
I didn't think Insua was good enough.
I think that because neither of them look accomplished on the ball, and neither have anything in their locker that is stand-out.

Insua's positional problems were well known, but positional sense can be taught.  Decision making can be improved, but is more of an innate skill.  At the other end of the scale things like pace can't be taught or improved at all, and are either there or not.
Insua isn't fast enough to be a top left-back in the modern game.  His tackling is ok, he has a good motor on him, he has a decent cross and his attitude is superb.  A Dirk Kuyt of a left-back, if you will.  Is he shite?  No, course not.  But he's not at the level to which I aspire.

Similarly Ngog.  He's a decent striker, good finish on him, but he doesn't have a lot of pace, has no strength on the ball, distinctly average ability in the air and his not technically a tricky player who'll take people on with skill.
He's alright.  As a 4th choice striker there's nothing wrong with him, but he's not top class and never will be top class.  There's simply too much missing from his game that can't be taught.  There's no reason to get rid at all, unless he wants to leave.  But lets not make out he's got it in him to be a great striker and anyone who says otherwise isn't a proper supporter - because that's just bollocks.

Excellent post. Thank fuck there's someone here with a grip on reality...

[Wish Matrix]

Daniel fucking Sturridge. Jesus wept.

[Cpt_Reina]

It bothers me that we only talk in extremes.
If you think Ngog isn't good enough, then you're obviously an idiot, a knee-jerking reactionary who isn't a proper supporter and hasn't got the wit and intelligence to judge things properly.

I think Ngog isn't good enough.
I didn't think Insua was good enough.
I think that because neither of them look accomplished on the ball, and neither have anything in their locker that is stand-out.

Insua's positional problems were well known, but positional sense can be taught.  Decision making can be improved, but is more of an innate skill.  At the other end of the scale things like pace can't be taught or improved at all, and are either there or not.
Insua isn't fast enough to be a top left-back in the modern game.  His tackling is ok, he has a good motor on him, he has a decent cross and his attitude is superb.  A Dirk Kuyt of a left-back, if you will.  Is he shite?  No, course not.  But he's not at the level to which I aspire.

Similarly Ngog.  He's a decent striker, good finish on him, but he doesn't have a lot of pace, has no strength on the ball, distinctly average ability in the air and his not technically a tricky player who'll take people on with skill.
He's alright.  As a 4th choice striker there's nothing wrong with him, but he's not top class and never will be top class.  There's simply too much missing from his game that can't be taught.  There's no reason to get rid at all, unless he wants to leave.  But lets not make out he's got it in him to be a great striker and anyone who says otherwise isn't a proper supporter - because that's just bollocks.

Im not and a dont think anyone is saying he's the answer to our goalscoring needs. Simply that he can contribute. Id never say a young player is absolved of any sort of criticism but people do seem all to ready to jump on them and label them as not good enough. Talent plays a huge part in football, but players CAN continue to improve.

I largely agree with your assesment of Insua. I rated him though. I look at someone like (and I hate to say it) Gary Neville and there's proof if ever it was needed that you dont need to be the most gifted person in your position to become a very important part in a very good team(s). Neville himself said there were many better players than himself, players with more natural ability, quicker, more of a footballing brain, but he's had a better career than the majority of people out there because he's maximised his potential, worked his bollocks off from day one and kept improving. At 20/21 the likes of Insua and Ngog should not be written off from being able to do the same, patience is key. They have both show that they can play, they can score goals or prevent them and imo should therefore be given the chance to learn their game and maximise their potential, they might never get there, but at that age its too soon to say they never will, especially after they've done it in fits and starts already.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Daniel fucking Sturridge. Jesus wept.

Yes, Daniel Sturridge - who has just scored three goals in his first three games on loan at Bolton.

Yes, Daniel Sturridge - the same man that has scored more Premiership goals than David Ngog this season in fewer appearances and minutes on the pitch.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/85291/daniel-sturridge?cc=5739

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/84000/david-ngog?cc=5739

[Cpt_Reina]

Yes, Daniel Sturridge - who has just scored three goals in his first three games on loan at Bolton.

Yes, Daniel Sturridge - the same man that has scored more Premiership goals than David Ngog this season in fewer appearances and minutes on the pitch.

Still waiting to hear your alternatives.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Still waiting to hear your alternatives.

Your question was pointless.

If we sold/loaned out Ngog, we wouldn't have to replace him with someone of the same age and price range.

[Cpt_Reina]

Your question was pointless.

If we sold/loaned out Ngog, we wouldn't have to replace him with someone of the same age and price range.

Ok even ignoring the criteria which seem perfectly applicable. We get rid of Ngog, then what?

[blacksun]

Your question was pointless.

If we sold/loaned out Ngog, we wouldn't have to replace him with someone of the same age and price range.

We wouldnt HAVE to but it is the general consensus at most top clubs to have a 3rd/4th choice striker who is young and has the potential to learn/improve, alternatively with the 3m(ish) we might get from selling Ngog we could buy another Voronin or Jovanovic who have no potential for growth. Therefore  Cpt_Reina's question has merit.

[GrkStav]

Your question was pointless.

If we sold/loaned out Ngog, we wouldn't have to replace him with someone of the same age and price range.

80% of your posts are pointless so perhaps you know of what you speak. Nah, you don't.

[adamski29]

It bothers me that we only talk in extremes.
If you think Ngog isn't good enough, then you're obviously an idiot, a knee-jerking reactionary who isn't a proper supporter and hasn't got the wit and intelligence to judge things properly.

I think Ngog isn't good enough.
I didn't think Insua was good enough.
I think that because neither of them look accomplished on the ball, and neither have anything in their locker that is stand-out.

Insua's positional problems were well known, but positional sense can be taught.  Decision making can be improved, but is more of an innate skill.  At the other end of the scale things like pace can't be taught or improved at all, and are either there or not.
Insua isn't fast enough to be a top left-back in the modern game.  His tackling is ok, he has a good motor on him, he has a decent cross and his attitude is superb.  A Dirk Kuyt of a left-back, if you will.  Is he shite?  No, course not.  But he's not at the level to which I aspire.

Similarly Ngog.  He's a decent striker, good finish on him, but he doesn't have a lot of pace, has no strength on the ball, distinctly average ability in the air and his not technically a tricky player who'll take people on with skill.
He's alright.  As a 4th choice striker there's nothing wrong with him, but he's not top class and never will be top class.  There's simply too much missing from his game that can't be taught.  There's no reason to get rid at all, unless he wants to leave.  But lets not make out he's got it in him to be a great striker and anyone who says otherwise isn't a proper supporter - because that's just bollocks.

Agreed, and very well put, ngog as with insua simply does,nt have the raw materials with which to improve to the level that we will require If we are to get back to the absolute top of the game, as for now and next season he will be fine playing a bit part while we build up our squad, that's not being  harsh on the lad, I had high hopes for the lad but have come around to the opinion that he is as some other poster put it on here when talking about another player, he is vanilla= not really exceptional in any area of his game and hasn't got much raw material to work with.

In he mean time I think he can be a third choice strikers for next season we have one out and out striker If you like, Suarez is a wide forward or second striker, though I accept he could do a job leading the line, I think we need another out and out striker, preferably someone who would give us a different option to Carroll a really quick player similar to tores, we badly need to inject more pace Into our squad as a lot of our players are very pedestrian, I know Carroll has got some pace but In  certain games that really quick player will be nedded, preferably a young striker who would be willing to not play all the time. That would give us three options to lead the line with ngog as third choice.

[Sangria]

It bothers me that we only talk in extremes.
If you think Ngog isn't good enough, then you're obviously an idiot, a knee-jerking reactionary who isn't a proper supporter and hasn't got the wit and intelligence to judge things properly.

Go back to my post where I explain what a stupid argument is. Not rating Insua or Ngog is not stupid. Arguing that Insua and Ngog aren't good enough and should be got rid of, without looking at the consequences of getting rid, is stupid. Wanting to improve on Insua is not stupid. Getting rid of Insua, only to find this leaves the squad with no senior LBs, is stupid.

[sowellred]

Really does make me despair that people are unwilling to be a bit more patient with players, especially young players. Insua is case and point as youve said. Comes in to a struggling team where no one is playing well and despite years of looking like a top prospect and progressing very well he is labelled as shite by a lot of 'supporters' because he comes in and isnt immediately as good as Maldini. Never mind his crossing ability, work rate, tackling ability that he'd show for years in the reserves and at times in the 1st team. Get skinned a few times or out paced and you're shot. Poor sod.

The ideal situation gives us 4 strikers to take into next season and we let Ngog go on loan to play every week at a championship club. Eccleston is doing a great job at Charlton and developing at a faster rate than Ngog simply through time in the first 11. We will see if Ngog has the quality after a year in the championship.

We simply do not have enough cover at the moment so he has to be part of the plan.

[John C]

If we sold/loaned out Ngog, we wouldn't have to replace him with someone of the same age and price range.

I agree, we'll have a long season ahead of us and we'll be facing the usual injuries to our first choice strikers therefore if the lad is happy to stay, then we need him to.
Particularly as we can't guarantee to have Kuyt as a back-up striker, he may chose to move on knowing his regular starts are over.

[BUSHMILLS]

Really does make me despair that people are unwilling to be a bit more patient with players, especially young players. Insua is case and point as youve said. Comes in to a struggling team where no one is playing well and despite years of looking like a top prospect and progressing very well he is labelled as shite by a lot of 'supporters' because he comes in and isnt immediately as good as Maldini. Never mind his crossing ability, work rate, tackling ability that he'd show for years in the reserves and at times in the 1st team. Get skinned a few times or out paced and you're shot. Poor sod.

He isn't shite, but he isn't good enough for a team that has ambitions like ours. Can we also stop with the "young" bit? He's 21, will be 22 in April. Ian Rush was rampant at that age, ditto Fowler, Owen (and Torres). He shouldn't be a 'prospect' anymore - he should be in his prime.

[Cpt_Reina]

He isn't shite, but he isn't good enough for a team that has ambitions like ours. Can we also stop with the "young" bit? He's 21, will be 22 in April. Ian Rush was rampant at that age, ditto Fowler, Owen (and Torres). He shouldn't be a 'prospect' anymore - he should be in his prime.

His prime should be 25 onwards. For every Fowler, Owen and Rush there's a Forlan, Wright and Drogba who take a little longer to develop.

No way heshould be on the scrap heap by 21, hes not a youngster, but he is young.

[thegoodfella]

AnnieRoadFaithful showing his lack of faith in another decent young player who might improve in a few years, doesn't surprise me at all.

He isn't shite, but he isn't good enough for a team that has ambitions like ours. Can we also stop with the "young" bit? He's 21, will be 22 in April. Ian Rush was rampant at that age, ditto Fowler, Owen (and Torres). He shouldn't be a 'prospect' anymore - he should be in his prime.

Takes time for some players to become 'rampant', not everyone is a worldclass talent at 18.

[Zaffarious]

he should be in his prime at 21?

err no

[blacksun]

He isn't shite, but he isn't good enough for a team that has ambitions like ours. Can we also stop with the "young" bit? He's 21, will be 22 in April. Ian Rush was rampant at that age, ditto Fowler, Owen (and Torres). He shouldn't be a 'prospect' anymore - he should be in his prime.

Geez theres so much wrong with that I dont know where to start. So if a players isnt Owen/Fowler/Rush by the time hes 22 he should be binned? As for the 'he should be in his prime', are you kidding most footballers prime is well known to be 24-30 so hes still a couple of years away from that. With fans like this then basically no young players are ever going to make it at a top club and we should just do away with academies and just buy players when they hit their prime

[Tomo!]

Your question was pointless.

If we sold/loaned out Ngog, we wouldn't have to replace him with someone of the same age and price range.

Course we would or who would replace him in the line up for the Sparta game that you've just posted in that thread.

[Daintstar]

So much negativity about a cracking young lad.

[Liverbird88]

I like David Ngog enough like, but for me he hasn't got that spark. I can't see him as a regular even though he obviously hasn't been getting the chances of late. I do like his passion for playing for Liverpool and he did the business filling in for Torres at the beginning of the season. Sometimes he can be frustrating to watch with giving the ball away too easily, but then again he does end up having about 3 defenders on him and of course he is still young. Just interesting to see what will happen to Ngog once Carroll is fit and he and Suarez are the two main strikers.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

We wouldnt HAVE to but it is the general consensus at most top clubs to have a 3rd/4th choice striker who is young and has the potential to learn/improve, alternatively with the 3m(ish) we might get from selling Ngog we could buy another Voronin or Jovanovic who have no potential for growth. Therefore  Cpt_Reina's question has merit.

So why don't we buy someone who is comfortably better than Ngog, Voronin and Jovanovic then? Why is that not an option?

Voronin and Jovanovic were two Bosman signings made out necessity and lack of funds. We don't appear to have that problem now.

[Cpt_Reina]

So why don't we buy someone who is comfortably better than Ngog, Voronin and Jovanovic then? Why is that not an option?

Voronin and Jovanovic were two Bosman signings made out necessity and lack of funds. We don't appear to have that problem now.

Who would you bring in to replace him then?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Geez theres so much wrong with that I dont know where to start. So if a players isnt Owen/Fowler/Rush by the time hes 22 he should be binned? As for the 'he should be in his prime', are you kidding most footballers prime is well known to be 24-30 so hes still a couple of years away from that. With fans like this then basically no young players are ever going to make it at a top club and we should just do away with academies and just buy players when they hit their prime

A - The comparisons to those top strikers is that those are the levels this club requires and aspires to. Ngog needn't necessarily be expected to be as good as them, but if he's going to occupy a role of 'young striker with potential' then he is blocking off that route, potentially, for a better player.

B - It could be argued that Fowler and Owen had their peaks before the age bracket you mention. Ngog may not have reached his peak, but he may also not get much better. What we have seen so far does not suggest to me that he has the ability or potential to become even half as good as the aforementioned.

C - David Ngog has absolutely nothing to do with our academy whatsoever. He was signed as a young pro and has always been in that role at this club. So your 'point' about academies has no bearing here at all.

[blacksun]

So why don't we buy someone who is comfortably better than Ngog, Voronin and Jovanovic then? Why is that not an option?

Voronin and Jovanovic were two Bosman signings made out necessity and lack of funds. We don't appear to have that problem now.

I know Voronin and Jovanovic were Bosmans, my point was that for the money you would get for selling Ngog thats the sort of quality you can expect. As you conveniently keep doing you fail to mention who these 'much better players' are that are available for the cost/wage of Ngog. Or do you think we will sign a 20m player on 100k a week to sit on the bench all season to be backup?

[blacksun]

A - The comparisons to those top strikers is that those are the levels this club requires and aspires to. Ngog needn't necessarily be expected to be as good as them, but if he's going to occupy a role of 'young striker with potential' then he is blocking off that route, potentially, for a better player.

B - It could be argued that Fowler and Owen had their peaks before the age bracket you mention. Ngog may not have reached his peak, but he may also not get much better. What we have seen so far does not sugges to me that he has the ability or potential to become even half as good as the aforementioned.

C - David Ngog has absolutely nothing to do with our academy whatsoever. He was signed as a young pro and has always been in that role at this club. So your 'point' about academies has no bearing here at all.

A- those players were not 'the norm', name the players of that level that have come through in the top clubs in England in the last 10 years?

B - those players peaks were much younger than the norm, but thats also tempered by the fact that injuries shortened their careers at the top level too.

C - Where Ngog came from is irrelevant, if that standard is not going to be good enough for 'the levels this club requires and aspires ' then based on what we have produced out of the academy in the last 10 yrs then my point is relevant, btw I am not saying we should I am saying if this is the expectation of youngsters then you might as well.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

I don't know why people think we should settle for this guy being a backup option myself. He hasn't shown anywhere near enough to suggest that could be a regular in a top side, so why sit and around and hope/wait for him to do so? Why let him take up a squad place when we could have someone superior in there? Football fans talk about the future too much. So much of football is about the here and now and people need to realise that only so much can be done about the future and having too much faith in decent young players can seriously backfire.

When you look at other young players that look to have a bit of potential there are plenty that never made it at the top club they played for.



Look at David Bellion, for instance. Another (once) young French striker. He joined Manchester United at the age of at 20 from Sunderland. He scored 4 goals in 24 games for them, at an average of one in every six games. He had previously score once in 20 at Sunderland.

Compare that with Ngog: 9 goals in 56 appearances at an average of a goal every 6.22 games for us. He is twenty-one now and joined us when he was nineteen. He had scored once in 18 at PSG, his former club.

Barely much difference in those records and a lot of parallels.

Most here would say David Bellion was a poor player for United and never really looked like going on to do much for them. How many United fans will see Ngog the same? I would say quite a few, for what a United fan's opinion is worth. But yet another likely parallel between the two.

Ok, so they aren't the same player or playing under identical circumstances, but their records are incredibly similar.

[Dave Mc]

he should be in his prime at 21?

err no

This. Robbie and Owen were freaks.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

I know Voronin and Jovanovic were Bosmans, my point was that for the money you would get for selling Ngog thats the sort of quality you can expect. As you conveniently keep doing you fail to mention who these 'much better players' are that are available for the cost/wage of Ngog. Or do you think we will sign a 20m player on 100k a week to sit on the bench all season to be backup?

We wouldn't necessarily have to sell Ngog and buy someone with the exact fee we receive. It doesn't work like that and people need to stop making out that it does.

And why is the only alternative to signing someone similar to Ngog buying a world-class striker for megabucks?

It's ridiculous the way people are narrowing all the fields to suit their blinkered views.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

This. Robbie and Owen were freaks.

Nobody has said Ngog should be at his peak....which is yet more of those backing him to come good changing what those that don't are saying.

[Cpt_Reina]

We wouldn't necessarily have to sell Ngog and buy someone with the exact fee we receive. It doesn't work like that and people need to stop making out that it does.

And why is the only alternative to signing someone similar to Ngog buying a world-class striker for megabucks?

It's ridiculous the way people are narrowing all the fields to suit their blinkered views.

Who would you suggest then? Who can we get better than Ngog who will be 'happy' to be a bit part player?

[blacksun]

I don't know why people think we should settle for this guy being a backup option myself. He hasn't shown anywhere near enough to suggest that could be a regular in a top side, so why sit and around and hope/wait for him to do so? Why let him take up a squad place when we could have someone superior in there? Football fans talk about the future too much. So much of football is about the here and now and people need to realise that only so much can be done about the future and having too much faith in decent young players can seriously backfire.

When you look at other young players that look to have a bit of potential there are plenty that never made it at the top club they played for.

Look at David Bellion, for instance. Another (once) young French striker. He joined Manchester United at the age of at 20 from Sunderland. He scored 4 goals in 24 games for them, at an average of one in every six games. He had previously score once in 20 at Sunderland.

Compare that with Ngog: 9 goals in 56 appearances at an average of a goal every 6.22 games for us. He is twenty-one now and joined us when he was nineteen. He had scored once in 18 at PSG, his former club.

Barely much difference in those records and a lot of parallels.

Most here would say David Bellion was a poor player for United and never really looked like going on to do much for them. How many United fans will see Ngog the same? I would say quite a few, for what a United fan's opinion is worth. But yet another likely parallel between the two.

Ok, so they aren't the same player or playing under identical circumstances, but their records are incredibly similar.

Its interesting that you use Utd as your example here because they are perfect for proving how short sighted your view is, if they had taken your approach then players like O'Shea, Phil Neville and Fletcher would have been binned off years ago and yet they werent. Funnily enough they have all contributed plenty to them over the last 5-15 yrs helping them to win numerous trophies.

I dont think anyone who is arguing my side of the debate is saying Ngog is brilliant and will be here for the rest of his career, but getting rid too quickly when we have much more pressing concerns and have players who due to their situations should be much closer to the exit. Jovanovic, Cole, Maxi and maybe even Kuyt are all the wrong side of 29 and on current form should be approaching the exit door as they have no potential to improve.

[stoa]

Yes, Daniel Sturridge - who has just scored three goals in his first three games on loan at Bolton.

Yes, Daniel Sturridge - the same man that has scored more Premiership goals than David Ngog this season in fewer appearances and minutes on the pitch.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/85291/daniel-sturridge?cc=5739

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/84000/david-ngog?cc=5739

So, you can claim that Sturridge is a better player than Ngog and use goals against Wolves (bottom of the league, shitloads of help from the defender by putting him through on goal 1vs.1 with the keeper) and Spurs (against the mighty Gomes who couldn't save what essentially was a back-pass my granny would have stopped with her arse standing on her head while being dead for 40 years or so) as evidence, while dismissing goals against Rabotnicki and Bucharest because they're shite?

You're either on a wind-up, seriously deluded or just a bell-end...